Jeremy Maclin vs Mike Wallace (1 Viewer)

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I got into a debate with another owner about this and wanted to see what the SP has to say.

I will post later with my thoughts so I don't show bias.

 

[Multiple Scores]

This year is close, 2011 and beyond Wallace and it's not even close.

 

[DevilDog919]

I got into a debate with another owner about this and wanted to see what the SP has to say.I will post later with my thoughts so I don't show bias.

FWIW, this wasn't the debate. Debate was they are basically the same player, and that they will produce around the same. Also, that Wallace would be worth 1.06 or higher next season. You disagreed, but think Maclin will be worth 1.06 or higher. We then discussed that I think Wallace's floor is 60 catches, 800 yards, and 5 TD's with his ceiling being around 80 catches, 1100 yards, and 8-10 TD's for next season. I think the bare minimum that I posted (60/800/5) from him being a 2nd year player would make him worth 1.06 or higher...similar to Nicks/Percy/and Maclin from the same draft class.

 

[T with T]

well they are close but I still like MACLIN a bit better. I think he is a little more explosive and a better route runner

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Mike Wallace stat line

72 targets

39 receptions

54.1 catch %

756 yards

5 TD's

Jeremy Maclin

90 targets

55 receptions

61.1 catch %

762 yards

4 TD's

I honestly see a tier seperating them as far a prospects:

-Maclin will be 22.4 at the start of the season, while Wallace will be 24.1

-Maclin had a 7% better chance at catching any single pass than Wallace

-Maclin's QB will start the season....while Big Ben is suspended for a significant portion that could throw off his game until late in the 2010 season.

-Better RB in Pittsburgh...which could always change in the future.

-Philly is a passing team....they throw for over 500 attempts on most seasons.

Big Ben threw for over 500 attempts for the first time in his career last year.

Then with all those extra attempts in Pittsburgh:

Ward- 136 targets 95 receptions for 1167 yards 6 tds

Holmes- 138 targets 79 rec for 1248 yards 5 tds

Wallace- 72 targets 39 receptions for 756 yards 5 tds

Enter 2010....just a hunch that Pittsburgh will run the ball more

-less wins last year when they passed

-Drafted a C in the first round

-Mendy's development

-History of Pass attempts in Pitts.

Also the WR core in 2010:

-lost Holmes

-Sweed injured

Hines Ward

Antwan Randel el is back in town

3rd round pick Emmanuel Sanders

History of WR's in Pittsburgh

It took Santonio Holmes 4 years to top 55 receptions(79 in 2009) to top 942 yards(1248 in 2009).

Hines Ward has went over 1000 yards in only 2 of the last 5 seasons and over 80 catches in 2 of the last 5 seasons as well.

Wallace has a lower career catching % than both Holmes and Ward.

So to combine Pittsburgh's odd # of large pass attempts last year that most likely won't be matched+ Big Ben's suspension for 4-8 games + adding Randel el and a 3rd round rookie + the History of Pittsburgh WR's + Wallace's low catch %= Overrated for this season.

Long term:

-Will Pittsburgh go back up to a large passing team or run more?

-Will Big Ben stay in Pittsburgh?

-Will Wallace develop more than just a deep threat?

-Will Wallace catch a high % of passes?

-How will the other WR's develop(sanders)?

-Will Pittsburgh bring in anyone else?

To cover the pick 1.6....I don't feel he will be worse that or better after this season. 1.6 was Ben Tate or D. Thomas this year. But the year before it was Maclin/harvin/Greene.

 

[LBH]

very close for me. I believe in Wallace and think hes more than a one trick pony running down deep balls like so many seem to believe. Maclin i think is a little underated and see him as a little bit better as an all around WR than Jackson in Philly but much will depend on how Kolb performs. Id give a slight edge to Wallace for 2010 and very close between the two beyond that

 

[J-Dawg]

I like both players and think its pretty much a wash for this season but I would give the slight edge to Maclin. I like Wallace more for the future and think that once Ben comes back from suspension that the Steelers will start to air it out a bit more. They will start this season with a ground attack because they simply have no other options. Once Ward retires, which will be soon IMO, Wallace would assume the WR1 role in Pittsburgh while Maclin will remain the WR2 in Philly. Jackson is still young and doesn't seem to be giving up that spot anytime in the near future. While I think that Maclin might have more natural talent than Wallace, I think the situation is set up better for Wallace. That said, I'd still love to have both guys on my team.

 

[Glaven]

I'm not a huge fan of Maclin, but I like him in this scenario by a large margin.

He's got better hands, better agility, and he's much more dynamic with the ball in his hands.

 

[massraider]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

 

[Glaven]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

My feeling is that Maclin was a much more polished player coming in than Wallace was. This means that Wallace has more room to progress after putting up basically the same yardage and TD totals as a rookie.

 

[massraider]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

Starting a post with the word 'So' is the easiest way to tell someone is about to twist my words to something they didn't mean. It was pretty apparent that Wallace and Maclin were used differently. Which you can tell by the numbers. For benson_will_lead to cherry-pick one stat and say, I don't like his catch percentage, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Wallace as a deep threat is going to have a lower catch percentage than a possession guy.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Mike Wallace stat line

72 targets

39 receptions

54.1 catch %

756 yards

5 TD's

Jeremy Maclin

90 targets

55 receptions

61.1 catch %

762 yards

4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

Starting a post with the word 'So' is the easiest way to tell someone is about to twist my words to something they didn't mean. It was pretty apparent that Wallace and Maclin were used differently. Which you can tell by the numbers. For benson_will_lead to cherry-pick one stat and say, I don't like his catch percentage, it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Wallace as a deep threat is going to have a lower catch percentage than a possession guy.

I included all stats....so it's not cherry picked. 7% is a big differential in catch percentage. In the same offense, Santonio Holmes averaged a 55%. Maybe it's Big Ben....who knows. All I know is that a WR over 61% has a bonus in my rankings over a guy with a 55%.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

My feeling is that Maclin was a much more polished player coming in than Wallace was. This means that Wallace has more room to progress after putting up basically the same yardage and TD totals as a rookie.

Even though Wallace is 2 years older than Maclin? I would think Maclin has more room to develop and grow.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

My feeling is that Maclin was a much more polished player coming in than Wallace was. This means that Wallace has more room to progress after putting up basically the same yardage and TD totals as a rookie.

Even though Wallace is 2 years older than Maclin? I would think Maclin has more room to develop and grow.

I have that feeling, in large part, because Maclin came out of a far more sophisticated and prolific passing offense. In their final college season Ole Miss threw the ball 340 times while Mizzou threw 565 times. Also Maclin just appeared more polished to me. It's certainly possible that Wallace is just Alvin Harper 2009, but if I had to choose between them in a dynasty I'd roll with Mike.

 

[massraider]

I included all stats....so it's not cherry picked. 7% is a big differential in catch percentage. In the same offense, Santonio Holmes averaged a 55%. Maybe it's Big Ben....who knows. All I know is that a WR over 61% has a bonus in my rankings over a guy with a 55%.

Hey, I prefer a higher percentage as well. But if you are gonna look at it, you can't look at it in a vacuum. You are using one year of production, and speaking in absolutes: Maclin has a 7% better chance of catching any singles pass than Wallace. You sure the sample size is big enough? Is it possible that Wallace's targets were a little bit less likely to be completed than Maclin's? Age to me is a non-starter. 22, 24 who cares? It's young. You can come back in 2019 and laugh at everybody if you want.

I don't like Ben being out for 4-6 games (although I bet it's only 4), but on the other hand, 138 targets just left town. Wallace has a much clearer path to a bigger slice of the pie than Maclin. Who, by the way, has a brand new QB. No fear at all of Kolb's growing pains?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I included all stats....so it's not cherry picked. 7% is a big differential in catch percentage. In the same offense, Santonio Holmes averaged a 55%. Maybe it's Big Ben....who knows. All I know is that a WR over 61% has a bonus in my rankings over a guy with a 55%.

Hey, I prefer a higher percentage as well. But if you are gonna look at it, you can't look at it in a vacuum. You are using one year of production, and speaking in absolutes: Maclin has a 7% better chance of catching any singles pass than Wallace. You sure the sample size is big enough? Is it possible that Wallace's targets were a little bit less likely to be completed than Maclin's? Didn't say it was a big sample size. But that is all we can go by at this point. Maclin had deep targets too here.

Age to me is a non-starter. 22, 24 who cares? I do b/c in terms of development Maclin has a better chance to develop his body more and mature as a person....which would make him a better football player. It's young. You can come back in 2019 and laugh at everybody if you want.

I don't like Ben being out for 4-6 games (although I bet it's only 4) right now it's 6 and that hurts Wallace this season. Long term Big Ben has 2 seasons in his career over 18 TD passes and two seasons over 3500 yards....not exactly great #'s, but on the other hand, 138 targets just left town. Wallace has a much clearer path to a bigger slice of the pie than MaclinHow so? Pitt passes much less and Big Ben doesn't have great #'s. Who, by the way, has a brand new QB. No fear at all of Kolb's growing pains?I have more confidence that Kolb goes for over 3500 and 20 TD's than Big Ben(his sample size is 6 years if your counting).

 

[SSOG]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

I don't... but I also expect that if his yards per reception drops from 19.4, his catch percentage will go up from 54.1%. Funny how those two things tend to go hand in hand.Complaining about a WR's catch% when he's averaging 19 yards per reception is moronic. Yeah, of course his catch% is low, his average catch is going 20 yards from the LoS! That's what's known as a "low percentage pass". I bet you also thought that David Carr was awesome in 2006 when his 68% completion percentage led the league. I mean, never mind the fact that he didn't even average 10 yards per completion. If you're going to compare two WRs with radically different usage patterns, stick to something that accounts for the difference, such as yards per target. Wallace averaged 10.5 yards per target, while Maclin averaged 8.5. Yes, Maclin ran some deep routes... but his final YPC was 13.8. Wallace's was 19.4. Do you honestly believe that Maclin was running low-percentage routes with anywhere NEAR the same frequency that Wallace was?

 

[Jedimaster21]

My feeling is that Maclin was a much more polished player coming in than Wallace was. This means that Wallace has more room to progress after putting up basically the same yardage and TD totals as a rookie.

Maclin came from an offense that passed the ball more frequently at Missouri, but he is far from polished. He was 20 years old when he came in and had never really had to learn any route running at all. He played in a spread offense and was extremely raw, and a lot younger than Wallace. He only played two years in college and was able to put up tremendous numbers in a very complicated offense.Maclin is a much better prospect. Don't get me wrong, I like Wallace. But Maclin has a much better pedigree, and has a better physical skill set than Wallace. He also scored a 25 on the Wunderlic (10 points higher than the closest WR), and has an excellent work ethic. Being the raw player he was when he went to the Eagles, he showed incredible progress. I honestly don't even think this is close.

 

[gianmarco]

My feeling is that Maclin was a much more polished player coming in than Wallace was. This means that Wallace has more room to progress after putting up basically the same yardage and TD totals as a rookie.

Maclin came from an offense that passed the ball more frequently at Missouri, but he is far from polished. He was 20 years old when he came in and had never really had to learn any route running at all. He played in a spread offense and was extremely raw, and a lot younger than Wallace. He only played two years in college and was able to put up tremendous numbers in a very complicated offense.Maclin is a much better prospect. Don't get me wrong, I like Wallace. But Maclin has a much better pedigree, and has a better physical skill set than Wallace. He also scored a 25 on the Wunderlic (10 points higher than the closest WR), and has an excellent work ethic. Being the raw player he was when he went to the Eagles, he showed incredible progress. I honestly don't even think this is close.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

I like Wallace much better. I think he will become the #1 in Pitt while Maclin will play second fiddle to DeSean. I do like Maclin but I prefer Wallace to Maclin by a good margin and think his upside is higher.

If Wallace would have been chosen in the 1st rd I think many more people would be on board. Now is the time to get him and if you own Maclin the Wallace owner will probably do a straight trade. After this season I suspect it will be a different scenario.

 

[adrenaline]

I like Wallace's chances of becoming the #1 in Pit much more than Maclin's becoming the #1 in Phi & that's the only reason I voted for Wallace on both accounts.

 

[SSOG]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

I don't... but I also expect that if his yards per reception drops from 19.4, his catch percentage will go up from 54.1%. Funny how those two things tend to go hand in hand.Complaining about a WR's catch% when he's averaging 19 yards per reception is moronic. Yeah, of course his catch% is low, his average catch is going 20 yards from the LoS! That's what's known as a "low percentage pass". I bet you also thought that David Carr was awesome in 2006 when his 68% completion percentage led the league. I mean, never mind the fact that he didn't even average 10 yards per completion. If you're going to compare two WRs with radically different usage patterns, stick to something that accounts for the difference, such as yards per target. Wallace averaged 10.5 yards per target, while Maclin averaged 8.5. Yes, Maclin ran some deep routes... but his final YPC was 13.8. Wallace's was 19.4. Do you honestly believe that Maclin was running low-percentage routes with anywhere NEAR the same frequency that Wallace was?

Elaborating on this even more... I pulled up the Data Dominator to find every incidence since 2002 where a WR had 25+ receptions and a 19+ ypc. There were 11 such instances. Those 11 WRs combined to put up 396 receptions on 770 targets for 8090 total yards. That works out to an average catch% of 51.4%. Wallace, you'll recall, caught 54.2%- which is noticeably higher than the other "deep threat" WRs. The simple fact is that the type of routes that Wallace ran are typically 50/50 propositions, and Wallace turned them into 54/46 propositions.A 60% catch rate is unrealistic for a player averaging 18+ yards per reception. The only players to hit both marks since 2002 were Santana Moss, Steve Smith, Joe Horn, and Santonio Holmes. That's four of the best deep receivers of the last decade, and all of them were at least in their 3rd season when they accomplished the feat. So yeah, it's nice that Maclin caught 60% of the balls thrown at him with his uninspiring 14 yards per reception... but it has little bearing when comparing his season to Wallace's. As a friend of mine is fond of saying, you're comparing apples and dump trucks.

 

[Glaven]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

I don't... but I also expect that if his yards per reception drops from 19.4, his catch percentage will go up from 54.1%. Funny how those two things tend to go hand in hand.Complaining about a WR's catch% when he's averaging 19 yards per reception is moronic. Yeah, of course his catch% is low, his average catch is going 20 yards from the LoS! That's what's known as a "low percentage pass". I bet you also thought that David Carr was awesome in 2006 when his 68% completion percentage led the league. I mean, never mind the fact that he didn't even average 10 yards per completion. If you're going to compare two WRs with radically different usage patterns, stick to something that accounts for the difference, such as yards per target. Wallace averaged 10.5 yards per target, while Maclin averaged 8.5. Yes, Maclin ran some deep routes... but his final YPC was 13.8. Wallace's was 19.4. Do you honestly believe that Maclin was running low-percentage routes with anywhere NEAR the same frequency that Wallace was?

The thing is, I don't expect Wallace's reception total to ever reach over 60 in a total season. Watching Wallace play, he reminds me of players like Devery Henderson, and Ashley Lelie in that he is super fast, but isn't very agile, isn't very strong, isn't great after the catch, and catches the ball using the inferior basket trapping technique. These type of players are most successful when they run deep routes as it allows them to easily take advantage of their main strength, their speed. Players like this rarely have good catch%'s, and their fantasy value completely relies on them having absurd yards per reception. If they are unable to keep their high yards per reception, than they are worth very little in fantasy. But even if they are able to obtain a very high yards per reception, they are so inconsistent week to week that they aren't a reliable source for fantasy output.I rather have a player like Maclin whose best games are better than Wallace's, and who will be more consistent on a week to week basis.

 

[FUBAR]

Mike Wallace stat line72 targets 39 receptions54.1 catch %756 yards5 TD'sJeremy Maclin90 targets55 receptions61.1 catch %762 yards4 TD's

You complain about his catch percentage, but look at those numbers above. It took 18 more targets for Maclin to get 6 more yards and 1 less TD.

So you expect Wallace to continue to obtain 19.4 yards per reception for the forseeable future?

I don't... but I also expect that if his yards per reception drops from 19.4, his catch percentage will go up from 54.1%. Funny how those two things tend to go hand in hand.Complaining about a WR's catch% when he's averaging 19 yards per reception is moronic. Yeah, of course his catch% is low, his average catch is going 20 yards from the LoS! That's what's known as a "low percentage pass". I bet you also thought that David Carr was awesome in 2006 when his 68% completion percentage led the league. I mean, never mind the fact that he didn't even average 10 yards per completion. If you're going to compare two WRs with radically different usage patterns, stick to something that accounts for the difference, such as yards per target. Wallace averaged 10.5 yards per target, while Maclin averaged 8.5. Yes, Maclin ran some deep routes... but his final YPC was 13.8. Wallace's was 19.4. Do you honestly believe that Maclin was running low-percentage routes with anywhere NEAR the same frequency that Wallace was?

Good argument. Only thing is, Wallace caught teams by surprise last year and was the 4th receiving option both for Ben and for the D to worry about. On one hand that means Wallace should have gotten open deep easier, OTOH that should mean Macling would have more targets, and he does but to finish with similar yardage is impressive for Wallace. Ben is a slightly better passer than McNabb, although it will be interesting to see how Kolb does for the future. I don't see Wallace as a #1 guy, IMO he benefited a lot from having Holmes, Ward and Miller but the fact that he played well enough to have a decent role as a rookie and at times look better than Holmes, warrants more attention.I like Maclin more but it's closer than I would have thought.

 

[B. Nugget]

For all of the Wallace voters...How would you vote if these two swapped teams today?

Dynasty is about opportunity + talent and I think some are getting caught up in a redraft mentality with these two because Holmes got the boot, which lends itself to the LT vs. Michael Bennett debate.

To each his own, and I think Wallace has a bright future but it appears that several people are looking at rookie stats and basing a HUGE 19 YPR as the norm...for a Pittsburgh WR. Regression to the mean!

I think Maclin will be 1B to DJAX this year putting up similar or better numbers in 2010 and beyond.

 

[massraider]

For all of the Wallace voters...How would you vote if these two swapped teams today? Dynasty is about opportunity + talent and I think some are getting caught up in a redraft mentality with these two because Holmes got the boot, which lends itself to the LT vs. Michael Bennett debate.To each his own, and I think Wallace has a bright future but it appears that several people are looking at rookie stats and basing a HUGE 19 YPR as the norm...for a Pittsburgh WR. Regression to the mean!

I don't think anyone expects him to maintain that average, I think people see 100+ targets now playing for the Jets, and those have to go somewhere. I'm not even that big a Wallace guy, but a young guy for a good team like that, with only an aging Heath Miller and Hines Ward standing in the way of him being the undisputed #1 guy, in dynasty leagues, I think there are pretty solid arguments for him vs. Maclin. DeSean and Celek are much tougher obstacles for Maclin to overcome. I also really like that Wallace seems like a favorite of Ben.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

For all of the Wallace voters...How would you vote if these two swapped teams today? Dynasty is about opportunity + talent and I think some are getting caught up in a redraft mentality with these two because Holmes got the boot, which lends itself to the LT vs. Michael Bennett debate.To each his own, and I think Wallace has a bright future but it appears that several people are looking at rookie stats and basing a HUGE 19 YPR as the norm...for a Pittsburgh WR. Regression to the mean!

I don't think anyone expects him to maintain that average, I think people see 100+ targets now playing for the Jets, and those have to go somewhere. I'm not even that big a Wallace guy, but a young guy for a good team like that, with only an aging Heath Miller and Hines Ward standing in the way of him being the undisputed #1 guy, in dynasty leagues, I think there are pretty solid arguments for him vs. Maclin. DeSean and Celek are much tougher obstacles for Maclin to overcome. I also really like that Wallace seems like a favorite of Ben.

Big Ben isn't a stud passing QB though...the stats prove that. Only 2 seasons over 18 TD's out of 6. He also has only 2 seasons over 3308 yards passing, and only 1 season over 3600 yards. Hardly a passing QB or passing offense.They drafted Sanders in the 3rd round just like Wallace. They brought in randle el, who is sure to take targets as well. I just don't see that as a vote of confidence that Wallace is the future #1...undisputed.ETA.I see Pittsburgh as more run oriented from this season on and Philly to continue in their passing ways.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

 

[massraider]

Big Ben isn't a stud passing QB though...the stats prove that. Only 2 seasons over 18 TD's out of 6. He also has only 2 seasons over 3308 yards passing, and only 1 season over 3600 yards. Hardly a passing QB or passing offense.

That didn't keep Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes from being fantasy starters for years.

They drafted Sanders in the 3rd round just like Wallace. They brought in randle el, who is sure to take targets as well. I just don't see that as a vote of confidence that Wallace is the future #1...undisputed.

Antwan Randle-El and a 3rd round WR is a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? Yeah, I don't buy that. I think that's a sign that Limas Sweed is no bueno, and they traded one of their starting WRs. They needed more bodies at WR.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Big Ben isn't a stud passing QB though...the stats prove that. Only 2 seasons over 18 TD's out of 6. He also has only 2 seasons over 3308 yards passing, and only 1 season over 3600 yards. Hardly a passing QB or passing offense.

That didn't keep Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes from being fantasy starters for years.Holmes first 3 years with the steelers 2006-2008

49 824 2

52 942 8

55 821 5

Ward is a much different story...but I don't think Holmes has been a starter for years.

They drafted Sanders in the 3rd round just like Wallace. They brought in randle el, who is sure to take targets as well. I just don't see that as a vote of confidence that Wallace is the future #1...undisputed.

Antwan Randle-El and a 3rd round WR is a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? Yeah, I don't buy that. I think that's a sign that Limas Sweed is no bueno, and they traded one of their starting WRs. They needed more bodies at WR.

You stated the targets have to go somewhere....I provided two new bodies that would help take Holmes targets. You also said undisputed #1.....a rookie catching 39 passes never provides that type of confidence for me.

 

[massraider]

Big Ben isn't a stud passing QB though...the stats prove that. Only 2 seasons over 18 TD's out of 6. He also has only 2 seasons over 3308 yards passing, and only 1 season over 3600 yards. Hardly a passing QB or passing offense.

That didn't keep Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes from being fantasy starters for years.Holmes first 3 years with the steelers 2006-2008

49 824 2

52 942 8

55 821 5

Ward is a much different story...but I don't think Holmes has been a starter for years.

They drafted Sanders in the 3rd round just like Wallace. They brought in randle el, who is sure to take targets as well. I just don't see that as a vote of confidence that Wallace is the future #1...undisputed.

Antwan Randle-El and a 3rd round WR is a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? Yeah, I don't buy that. I think that's a sign that Limas Sweed is no bueno, and they traded one of their starting WRs. They needed more bodies at WR.

You stated the targets have to go somewhere....I provided two new bodies that would help take Holmes targets. You also said undisputed #1.....a rookie catching 39 passes never provides that type of confidence for me.

Holmes as been top 32 WR (FBG standard) since his 2nd year. He's been startable for 3 years.And yeah, you added two new bodies. ARE is just a guy, don't really see how that is debatable unless you have much higher expectations than anyone else. Sanders is a 3rd round pick, and people like him, but is he a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? That's a bit of a reach to me.

 

[LBH]

Big Ben isn't a stud passing QB though...the stats prove that. Only 2 seasons over 18 TD's out of 6. He also has only 2 seasons over 3308 yards passing, and only 1 season over 3600 yards. Hardly a passing QB or passing offense.

That didn't keep Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes from being fantasy starters for years.Holmes first 3 years with the steelers 2006-2008

49 824 2

52 942 8

55 821 5

Ward is a much different story...but I don't think Holmes has been a starter for years.

They drafted Sanders in the 3rd round just like Wallace. They brought in randle el, who is sure to take targets as well. I just don't see that as a vote of confidence that Wallace is the future #1...undisputed.

Antwan Randle-El and a 3rd round WR is a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? Yeah, I don't buy that. I think that's a sign that Limas Sweed is no bueno, and they traded one of their starting WRs. They needed more bodies at WR.

You stated the targets have to go somewhere....I provided two new bodies that would help take Holmes targets. You also said undisputed #1.....a rookie catching 39 passes never provides that type of confidence for me.

Holmes as been top 32 WR (FBG standard) since his 2nd year. He's been startable for 3 years.And yeah, you added two new bodies. ARE is just a guy, don't really see how that is debatable unless you have much higher expectations than anyone else. Sanders is a 3rd round pick, and people like him, but is he a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? That's a bit of a reach to me.

Also i think Holmes missed games over that stretch so year end stats could be a little misleading

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Holmes as been top 32 WR (FBG standard) since his 2nd year. He's been startable for 3 years.And yeah, you added two new bodies. ARE is just a guy, don't really see how that is debatable unless you have much higher expectations than anyone else. Sanders is a 3rd round pick, and people like him, but is he a sign that they don't believe in Wallace? That's a bit of a reach to me.

I stand corrected...I just checked rankingsHe finished 16th last year, 33rd, then 28th, 50th in his 4 years.However, I don't see Wallace putting up those #'s on #1/2 CB's in the league moving forward. He doesn't have the YAC potential of Ward/Holmes. He appears limited b/c he doesn't break many tackles or make people miss.It's not a sign of believing....you said undisputed #1 past Ward.....Wallace was a 3rd...Sanders was a 3rd.....one can't assume a player is a future #1 on 39 catches.I included Randle el b/c he will steal some of Holmes targets this season. Plus Pittsburgh will throw the ball less this season....which makes those potential targets even smaller(as a team).

 

[T.Rex]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

I do... Not too mention half those plays he wasnt playing the slot. So for people saying he's a slot reciever watch the video.

I think you added credence to the Wallace camp.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Rookie WR's last year stat wise:

Targets/receptions/yards/td

Nicks 74 47 790 6

Harvin 91 60 790 6

Wallace 72 39 756 6

Maclin 90 55 762 4

Knox 80 45 527 5

Murphy 94 34 521 4

Lots of rookie WR's had success last season...but to say that any of these are undisputed #1's moving forward is questionable.

Note I left out Crabtree, Britt, and Massaquoi b/c they were arguably the #1's on their respective teams last season.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

I do... Not too mention half those plays he wasnt playing the slot. So for people saying he's a slot reciever watch the video.

I think you added credence to the Wallace camp.

By racking up yardage on 4th and 5th CB's??? ok

 

[Phlash]

It's funny, everyone talks about how great of a deep threat Wallace is, but despite the fact that his YPC was higher than Maclin's from watching game tape Maclin is actually better suited to that role. Maclin accelerates much quicker after the ball is in his hands and has much better lateral movement than Wallace. Also, Wallace has good hands, but Maclin has exceptional hands - he catches the ball well in heavy traffic, has a higher vertical ceiling, and right now is the superior athlete, even thoguh Wallace is a good athlete in his own right. Desean is great but Maclin is the better all around receiver. I have no qualms with thinking that Maclin will be the #1 on that team next year or the year after.

 

[Phlash]

It also helps that Maclin was going against #1 and #2 cornerbacks his rookie season, while Wallace was going against the 3rd or 4th CBs last year. Despite this, they both produced similar yardage numbers. Maclin is just more suited for a #1 role than Wallace is. I don't think that the future #1 receiver for Pittsburgh is on the team right now.

 

[B. Nugget]

It's funny, everyone talks about how great of a deep threat Wallace is, but despite the fact that his YPC was higher than Maclin's from watching game tape Maclin is actually better suited to that role. Maclin accelerates much quicker after the ball is in his hands and has much better lateral movement than Wallace. Also, Wallace has good hands, but Maclin has exceptional hands - he catches the ball well in heavy traffic, has a higher vertical ceiling, and right now is the superior athlete, even thoguh Wallace is a good athlete in his own right. Desean is great but Maclin is the better all around receiver. I have no qualms with thinking that Maclin will be the #1 on that team next year or the year after.

That is exactly where I'm coming from...

 

[massraider]

It's not a sign of believing....you said undisputed #1 past Ward.....Wallace was a 3rd...Sanders was a 3rd.....one can't assume a player is a future #1 on 39 catches.

I included Randle el b/c he will steal some of Holmes targets this season. Plus Pittsburgh will throw the ball less this season....which makes those potential targets even smaller(as a team).

No, I said he had Miller and Ward standing in his way of being the #1. I never assumed anything. I do think it would take a major miracle for him to not be the #2 target in PIT this year. What I am saying is there is a path there, and I think it's clearer than Maclin's. I think DeSean and Celek are tougher guys to pass than Ward and Miller. Is it a lock? No, and I didn't say it was. And I am not even arguing the merits of Wallace's talent vs. Maclin's. Or Pitt's offense vs. Philly's, which you keep going back to. Which I have let go, because I probably tend to agree with you, but stepping back, Kolb has shown very little, and could be a bust. I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that he will step right in, and put up McNabb-type numbers this year. How many first year starters have?

If you think that Wallace isn't a potential #1, and Kolb is the next Matt Shaub, and that Maclin is going to assume a lot more targets, that's fine. But it seems like there are two questions, redraft, and beyond. And for redraft, the Ben suspension is massive, no question. 6 games, but do you think it's going to be 6 games, or do you think it'll be reduced? You can kick and scream, and say right now it's 6 games, but I am assuming it's going be 4. There is a precedent for this, and unless Ben drops the ball, the commish is going to reduce it. Is it that much of a lock that Kolb, in his 3rd-7th starts, will dramatically outscore Leftwich, thus making that massive a difference in these players 2010 outlooks?

From an opportunity standpoint, it's tough to see how Maclin is better than Wallace. ARE and Emanuel Sanders are as much of a concern for Wallace as Jason Avant and Riley Cooper are for Maclin.

 

[LTF]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

I do... Not too mention half those plays he wasnt playing the slot. So for people saying he's a slot reciever watch the video.

I think you added credence to the Wallace camp.

Last year the Steelers started using Hines Ward a lot more in the slot than they have in the past. He doesn't have the same wheels he used to, but he still knows how to read a defense and find his spots, and everyone knows he's not afraid to go over the middle of the field, so it seemed like a natural fit. So Wallace did spend a lot of time on the outside as a result, which you can see from that video.

I think the Lelie comparisons are a bit unfair. I mean, Wallace came in as a rookie and led the NFL in yards a catch and had more catches and more TDs than Lelie did in either of his first two seasons in the league. He's still a very raw player, and early in the season didn't really look that comfortable out there even though he was still making plays, but you've got to love his potential going forward. You've got a great QB who is entering his prime, and Wallace is stepping into a situation where he's replacing a guy who had over 120+ targets last season.

What's not to love? And it's not like the Steelers are bringing back two yards and a cloud of dust. Roethlisberger is their best playmaker on offense, Bruce Arians is the offensive coordinator, and they're going to run a lot of no huddle/spread. Both the wideouts they drafted this year played in the spread as well. The Steelers are going to run a lot of 4 and 5 wide with Roethlisberger running the hurried huddle as they call it. Their base offense will likely be a three wide set (which is the set they used the most last year) mixed in with some singleback 2 TE sets, and the shotgun spread. Arians won't even admit to having a full back on the roster.

And say what you want, but Ben Roethlisberger threw for more yards a game than Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers last year. Those passes gotta go somewhere, and Wallace is their biggest playmaker down the field. I don't expect him to keep up his ridiculous YPC, but if he sees an increase of only say 3 targets a game (48 targets), it's not crazy to see him as a 60-65 reception 1,000 yard receiver with 6-10 TDs.

 

[massraider]

Also, Wallace has good hands, but Maclin has exceptional hands - he catches the ball well in heavy traffic, has a higher vertical ceiling, and right now is the superior athlete, even thoguh Wallace is a good athlete in his own right. Desean is great but Maclin is the better all around receiver. I have no qualms with thinking that Maclin will be the #1 on that team next year or the year after.

Wallace had a 4.5 inch higher vert than Maclin coming out of college. And also put up better numbers is 40, 20, and 10 yard time, broad jump, and 3 cone drill. I don't think workout numbers are the be-all end-all, but if Wallace fades, it won't be because of athletic ability.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

It's not a sign of believing....you said undisputed #1 past Ward.....Wallace was a 3rd...Sanders was a 3rd.....one can't assume a player is a future #1 on 39 catches.

I included Randle el b/c he will steal some of Holmes targets this season. Plus Pittsburgh will throw the ball less this season....which makes those potential targets even smaller(as a team).

No, I said he had Miller and Ward standing in his way of being the #1. I never assumed anything. I do think it would take a major miracle for him to not be the #2 target in PIT this year. It was contradicting...but I will let it pass.

What I am saying is there is a path there, and I think it's clearer than Maclin's. I think DeSean and Celek are tougher guys to pass than Ward and Miller. Is it a lock? No, and I didn't say it was. And I am not even arguing the merits of Wallace's talent vs. Maclin's. Or Pitt's offense vs. Philly's, which you keep going back to. Which I have let go, because I probably tend to agree with you, but stepping back, Kolb has shown very little, and could be a bust. I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that he will step right in, and put up McNabb-type numbers this year. How many first year starters have?

Like Big Ben....I think McNabb is overratd in FF circles. He has never topped 4000 yards and only once thrown for more than 25 TD's. I do agree that it is a chance Kolb busts. But from what they have seen last season and with the weapons in Philly. I would like to think he can put up 3500 and 25 td's this season.

If you think that Wallace isn't a potential #1, and Kolb is the next Matt Shaub, and that Maclin is going to assume a lot more targets, that's fine. But it seems like there are two questions, redraft, and beyond. And for redraft, the Ben suspension is massive, no question. 6 games, but do you think it's going to be 6 games, or do you think it'll be reduced? You can kick and scream, and say right now it's 6 games, but I am assuming it's going be 4. There is a precedent for this, and unless Ben drops the ball, the commish is going to reduce it. Is it that much of a lock that Kolb, in his 3rd-7th starts, will dramatically outscore Leftwich, thus making that massive a difference in these players 2010 outlooks?

I think the problem with Big Ben is beyond the suspension....it is a rhythm. He will need time to get back adjusted to the NFL game(see Matt Ryan last year in regards to a QB never getting into a rhythm). So be it 4 or 6 games.....it will likely be more than that until we see Big Ben on top of his game(which I have question marks about as well). I do think that Kolb will outscore Dixon/Leftwich by a large margin during that time span. That has to do with Pittsburgh will run more as well. So again this would be more redraft.

From an opportunity standpoint, it's tough to see how Maclin is better than Wallace. ARE and Emanuel Sanders are as much of a concern for Wallace as Jason Avant and Riley Cooper are for Maclin.

Perhaps this is the sticking point. Sanders was the same NFL draft pick as Wallace....who's to say he isn't better than him??? Maclin was a first round pick while Avant and Cooper weren't even close to that or have produced even close to that in the NFL. Avant has produced what a #3 WR should in the NFL...much like Wallace last season.

So from a dynasty perceptive....Maclin/Jackson close in talent and who's to say the #1 in 2011 and beyond will be.

However, will Big Ben be in Pitsburgh for long? Sanders/Wallce drafted closely....both speedsters...who's to say the #1 in 2011 will be.

So it is probably preference. But with Wallace's situation(Pittsburgh moving more run oriented, Big Ben suspension + long term issues, drafting a similiar WR in the same round + what I have seen from Wallace....I don't see him being much more than a Devery Henderson player moving forward.

 

[T.Rex]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

I do... Not too mention half those plays he wasnt playing the slot. So for people saying he's a slot reciever watch the video.

I think you added credence to the Wallace camp.

By racking up yardage on 4th and 5th CB's??? ok

Yeah 4th and 5 th CB'S if one was on Ward and another was on Holmes where was the 3rd and 4th? Please tell me your more educated then to suggest Miller was drawing a cb.. Please qualify your statement

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

I do... Not too mention half those plays he wasnt playing the slot. So for people saying he's a slot reciever watch the video.

I think you added credence to the Wallace camp.

By racking up yardage on 4th and 5th CB's??? ok

Yeah 4th and 5 th CB'S if one was on Ward and another was on Holmes where was the 3rd and 4th? Please tell me your more educated then to suggest Miller was drawing a cb.. Please qualify your statement

Read above....I was quoted twice....GB had lots of injuries at CB. Al Harris, etc.

 

[T.Rex]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

I also see quite a few short/medium passes and not all bombs....which would negate some of the catch % due to deep patterns talk.

I do... Not too mention half those plays he wasnt playing the slot. So for people saying he's a slot reciever watch the video.

I think you added credence to the Wallace camp.

By racking up yardage on 4th and 5th CB's??? ok

Yeah 4th and 5 th CB'S if one was on Ward and another was on Holmes where was the 3rd and 4th? Please tell me your more educated then to suggest Miller was drawing a cb.. Please qualify your statement

Read above....I was quoted twice....GB had lots of injuries at CB. Al Harris, etc.

Ok I get it now... I forgot Pitt played Green Bay every week last year. I had to watch the video again... Yep all those highlights were against Green Bay....

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Looking at a highlight reel of him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqal3HRugLM...feature=related

I don't see an elite or #1 guy.

On two of his TD's both vs GB....they were against 4th and 5th CB's at best(GB had injuries at CB last year bad).

Ok I get it now... I forgot Pitt played Green Bay every week last year. I had to watch the video again... Yep all those highlights were against Green Bay....

Do you enjoy misquoting people??? I said on two of his TD's vs GB. Do you think that's impressive??? I would like to see Wallace continue to develop this season vs starting CB's this season before declaring him a future #1 WR.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Although Wallace was not playing against teams 4th and 5th cb's he was matched up against safeties and or not as much accounted for as Ward and Holmes when a team zoned up against Pitt.

There are going to be many times this year he is going to draw the teams number 1 cb's for large portions of the game. Wallace is a good project with elite speed and definitely has a chance to be successful. But he may be over valued right now in dyansty leagues and the same will go for redraft.

 

[GridironMenace]

Wallace is not a possession receiver. He's a deep threat. Those that think otherwise have blinders on. Maclin is the superior talent for this season and in the future.