Jerry Sandusky accused of child molestation (9 Viewers)

[ConstruxBoy]

If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno admitted that he was told of a child being raped by Sandusky.Paterno admitted that he continued to associate with Sandusky afterwards.What would you call that?

I don't know why I'm bothering but both of those statements are kind of wrong. He was told about something that looked sexual in nature, which is my opinion is different that being told he saw something I don't want to type here. And I thought we established pretty well earlier in the thread that he didn't really associate with Sandusky after the 2001/2 incident? He pretty much talked to him one or two times if that over the course of a decade. Lots of people think that's a tell that he knew what was going on.

He was told of "fondling' and "something of a sexual nature" (of course after he was fired his statement to the press tried to claim he wasn't told anything that specific). That's sexual assault at a minimum even if it was committed against an adult. He still saw Sandusky with children at football activities and didn't do anything about it, that's enabling.

I think you have a very liberal use of the term "enabling" but I know your opinion on this from all your posts so it's not a surprise.

 

[mad sweeney]

If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno admitted that he was told of a child being raped by Sandusky.Paterno admitted that he continued to associate with Sandusky afterwards.What would you call that?

I don't know why I'm bothering but both of those statements are kind of wrong. He was told about something that looked sexual in nature, which is my opinion is different that being told he saw something I don't want to type here. And I thought we established pretty well earlier in the thread that he didn't really associate with Sandusky after the 2001/2 incident? He pretty much talked to him one or two times if that over the course of a decade. Lots of people think that's a tell that he knew what was going on.

He was told of "fondling' and "something of a sexual nature" (of course after he was fired his statement to the press tried to claim he wasn't told anything that specific). That's sexual assault at a minimum even if it was committed against an adult. He still saw Sandusky with children at football activities and didn't do anything about it, that's enabling.

I think you have a very liberal use of the term "enabling" but I know your opinion on this from all your posts so it's not a surprise.

Liberal use of the term? A guy with ultimate authority knowing about absolutely disgusting behavior and turning a blind eye to it for a decade isn't enabling? What is then, opening the door for Sandusky and standing guard?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

If it's true that Joe Paterno knew about what Sandusky was doing, but covered up for him and allowed him to remain connected with Penn State in order to avoid staining the school's reputation, then he (Paterno) deserves all of the scorn that posters like Todd Andrews and bagger has expressed, and we should revile his memory. And if others at Penn State knew about this and covered it up in order to protect Paterno, then they need to be condemned as well. And possibly prosecuted. But unless there's clear cut proof of this stuff, then I think we should refrain from the accusations against these people. ConstruxBoy's post suggests a different possibilty in the case of Paterno, and there may also be different possibilities in the case of the others as well. What I absolutely reject is the argument that several people here have made, to the effect that, "Of course they knew, how could they NOT have known?" Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. People are stupid. People blind themselves to unpleasant facts. People are gullible. These things make them guilty of nothing except stupidity, blindness and gullibility. It doesn't make them evil. If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno's own Grand Jury testimony alone shows that he knew what was going on. I don't know how much more clear-cut that can be.

What was going on is that over a number of years Sandusky was systematically befriending and abusing a number of young boys through his charity. Where in Paterno's testimony does he say that?

He doesn't, but he does show that he knew specifically about one incident and yet Sandusky continued to be around the football team with young children and JoPa did nothing about it.

I agree with you completely on this statement. However you imply that therefore he had to know that it was not a one time incident. I think it seems obvious to us in hindsight, or to someone who studies child molesters (and let's be honest, we all know a hell of lot more about them now than we ever wanted to). But I think to someone who didn't have hindsight or knowledge of molesters it wasn't as easy a connection. Hope we get more evidence soon though.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno admitted that he was told of a child being raped by Sandusky.Paterno admitted that he continued to associate with Sandusky afterwards.

What would you call that?

I don't know why I'm bothering but both of those statements are kind of wrong. He was told about something that looked sexual in nature, which is my opinion is different that being told he saw something I don't want to type here. And I thought we established pretty well earlier in the thread that he didn't really associate with Sandusky after the 2001/2 incident? He pretty much talked to him one or two times if that over the course of a decade. Lots of people think that's a tell that he knew what was going on.

He was told of "fondling' and "something of a sexual nature" (of course after he was fired his statement to the press tried to claim he wasn't told anything that specific). That's sexual assault at a minimum even if it was committed against an adult. He still saw Sandusky with children at football activities and didn't do anything about it, that's enabling.

I think you have a very liberal use of the term "enabling" but I know your opinion on this from all your posts so it's not a surprise.

Liberal use of the term? A guy with ultimate authority knowing about absolutely disgusting behavior and turning a blind eye to it for a decade isn't enabling? What is then, opening the door for Sandusky and standing guard?

Yes, I think that's pretty clearly enabling. Why do you continue to answer my posts when you won't consider anything different than what you've already decided?

 

[mad sweeney]

If it's true that Joe Paterno knew about what Sandusky was doing, but covered up for him and allowed him to remain connected with Penn State in order to avoid staining the school's reputation, then he (Paterno) deserves all of the scorn that posters like Todd Andrews and bagger has expressed, and we should revile his memory. And if others at Penn State knew about this and covered it up in order to protect Paterno, then they need to be condemned as well. And possibly prosecuted. But unless there's clear cut proof of this stuff, then I think we should refrain from the accusations against these people. ConstruxBoy's post suggests a different possibilty in the case of Paterno, and there may also be different possibilities in the case of the others as well. What I absolutely reject is the argument that several people here have made, to the effect that, "Of course they knew, how could they NOT have known?" Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. People are stupid. People blind themselves to unpleasant facts. People are gullible. These things make them guilty of nothing except stupidity, blindness and gullibility. It doesn't make them evil. If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno's own Grand Jury testimony alone shows that he knew what was going on. I don't know how much more clear-cut that can be.

What was going on is that over a number of years Sandusky was systematically befriending and abusing a number of young boys through his charity. Where in Paterno's testimony does he say that?

He doesn't, but he does show that he knew specifically about one incident and yet Sandusky continued to be around the football team with young children and JoPa did nothing about it.

I agree with you completely on this statement. However you imply that therefore he had to know that it was not a one time incident. I think it seems obvious to us in hindsight, or to someone who studies child molesters (and let's be honest, we all know a hell of lot more about them now than we ever wanted to). But I think to someone who didn't have hindsight or knowledge of molesters it wasn't as easy a connection. Hope we get more evidence soon though.

Whether he did it once or a thousand times, how can you not make sure it isn't still happening if you see the guy constantly with young kids at your facility and closely associated with your organization?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

If it's true that Joe Paterno knew about what Sandusky was doing, but covered up for him and allowed him to remain connected with Penn State in order to avoid staining the school's reputation, then he (Paterno) deserves all of the scorn that posters like Todd Andrews and bagger has expressed, and we should revile his memory. And if others at Penn State knew about this and covered it up in order to protect Paterno, then they need to be condemned as well. And possibly prosecuted. But unless there's clear cut proof of this stuff, then I think we should refrain from the accusations against these people. ConstruxBoy's post suggests a different possibilty in the case of Paterno, and there may also be different possibilities in the case of the others as well. What I absolutely reject is the argument that several people here have made, to the effect that, "Of course they knew, how could they NOT have known?" Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. People are stupid. People blind themselves to unpleasant facts. People are gullible. These things make them guilty of nothing except stupidity, blindness and gullibility. It doesn't make them evil. If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno's own Grand Jury testimony alone shows that he knew what was going on. I don't know how much more clear-cut that can be.

What was going on is that over a number of years Sandusky was systematically befriending and abusing a number of young boys through his charity. Where in Paterno's testimony does he say that?

He doesn't, but he does show that he knew specifically about one incident and yet Sandusky continued to be around the football team with young children and JoPa did nothing about it.

I agree with you completely on this statement. However you imply that therefore he had to know that it was not a one time incident. I think it seems obvious to us in hindsight, or to someone who studies child molesters (and let's be honest, we all know a hell of lot more about them now than we ever wanted to). But I think to someone who didn't have hindsight or knowledge of molesters it wasn't as easy a connection. Hope we get more evidence soon though.

Whether he did it once or a thousand times, how can you not make sure it isn't still happening if you see the guy constantly with young kids at your facility and closely associated with your organization?

What if you were lied to and told that he was watched by someone from Second Mile who talked to the kids and made sure nothing like that ever happened again? What if that guy was the head of Second Mile or the head of Campus Police?

 

[mad sweeney]

If it's true that Joe Paterno knew about what Sandusky was doing, but covered up for him and allowed him to remain connected with Penn State in order to avoid staining the school's reputation, then he (Paterno) deserves all of the scorn that posters like Todd Andrews and bagger has expressed, and we should revile his memory. And if others at Penn State knew about this and covered it up in order to protect Paterno, then they need to be condemned as well. And possibly prosecuted. But unless there's clear cut proof of this stuff, then I think we should refrain from the accusations against these people. ConstruxBoy's post suggests a different possibilty in the case of Paterno, and there may also be different possibilities in the case of the others as well. What I absolutely reject is the argument that several people here have made, to the effect that, "Of course they knew, how could they NOT have known?" Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. People are stupid. People blind themselves to unpleasant facts. People are gullible. These things make them guilty of nothing except stupidity, blindness and gullibility. It doesn't make them evil. If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno's own Grand Jury testimony alone shows that he knew what was going on. I don't know how much more clear-cut that can be.

What was going on is that over a number of years Sandusky was systematically befriending and abusing a number of young boys through his charity. Where in Paterno's testimony does he say that?

He doesn't, but he does show that he knew specifically about one incident and yet Sandusky continued to be around the football team with young children and JoPa did nothing about it.

I agree with you completely on this statement. However you imply that therefore he had to know that it was not a one time incident. I think it seems obvious to us in hindsight, or to someone who studies child molesters (and let's be honest, we all know a hell of lot more about them now than we ever wanted to). But I think to someone who didn't have hindsight or knowledge of molesters it wasn't as easy a connection. Hope we get more evidence soon though.

Whether he did it once or a thousand times, how can you not make sure it isn't still happening if you see the guy constantly with young kids at your facility and closely associated with your organization?

What if you were lied to and told that he was watched by someone from Second Mile who talked to the kids and made sure nothing like that ever happened again? What if that guy was the head of Second Mile or the head of Campus Police?

I think you have to be pretty naive to believe that, especially with all the other things that were swirling around Sandusky's departure from the program as well as JoePa's social circle.

 

[Joe Summer]

I don't know why I'm bothering but both of those statements are kind of wrong. He was told about something that looked sexual in nature, which is my opinion is different that being told he saw something I don't want to type here.

Paterno described it as "inappropriate" "fondling" of "a sexual nature". So, perhaps it wasn't technically "rape". But when children are involved, does it really matter if an illegal act is described as "child rape" or "child sexual fondling"?

And I thought we established pretty well earlier in the thread that he didn't really associate with Sandusky after the 2001/2 incident?

Sandusky was unofficially banned from bringing kids into the locker room, but there is evidence that he continued to bring kids to the sidelines of both practices and games, and Paterno continued to allow players to attend Second Mile functions (some of which were held on the PSU campus). Paterno may have ended his personal association with Sandusky, but he clearly maintained a professional association.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I think you have to be pretty naive to believe that, especially with all the other things that were swirling around Sandusky's departure from the program as well as JoePa's social circle.

You're probably right. But I certainly think it's possible. And what if you still didn't like it and said you didn't want him around anymore. And you went all the way to the University President and he said sorry but Sandusky is a Professor Emeritus and he can't be kicked off campus or have his office moved from the football building?Again, speculation. But I do want to get some emails from that time among Schultz, Curley and Spanier to see what they say. I doubt Paterno has any emails unfortunately.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

 

[RustyFA4]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I don't know why I'm bothering but both of those statements are kind of wrong. He was told about something that looked sexual in nature, which is my opinion is different that being told he saw something I don't want to type here.

Paterno described it as "inappropriate" "fondling" of "a sexual nature". So, perhaps it wasn't technically "rape". But when children are involved, does it really matter if an illegal act is described as "child rape" or "child sexual fondling"?

And I thought we established pretty well earlier in the thread that he didn't really associate with Sandusky after the 2001/2 incident?

Sandusky was unofficially banned from bringing kids into the locker room, but there is evidence that he continued to bring kids to the sidelines of both practices and games, and Paterno continued to allow players to attend Second Mile functions (some of which were held on the PSU campus). Paterno may have ended his personal association with Sandusky, but he clearly maintained a professional association.

Agree completely on both counts. I'm just not sure he had as much control of the professional association as we think. Anyway, thanks for the reasonable conversation. I appreciate it.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

Just trying to correct inaccurate info in the thread. Shouldn't you be off in the ACC Basketball thread fighting with Ripleys?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

Just trying to correct inaccurate info in the thread. Shouldn't be off in the ACC Basketball thread fighting with Ripleys?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

Just trying to correct inaccurate info in the thread. Shouldn't be off in the ACC Basketball thread fighting with Ripleys?

Seriously though, go tell him that Coach K is defending Paterno getting fired. That'll rile him up.

 

[mad sweeney]

I think you have to be pretty naive to believe that, especially with all the other things that were swirling around Sandusky's departure from the program as well as JoePa's social circle.

You're probably right. But I certainly think it's possible. And what if you still didn't like it and said you didn't want him around anymore. And you went all the way to the University President and he said sorry but Sandusky is a Professor Emeritus and he can't be kicked off campus or have his office moved from the football building?Again, speculation. But I do want to get some emails from that time among Schultz, Curley and Spanier to see what they say. I doubt Paterno has any emails unfortunately.

We're talking about Paterno, not just some average successful coach at some university.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I think you have to be pretty naive to believe that, especially with all the other things that were swirling around Sandusky's departure from the program as well as JoePa's social circle.

You're probably right. But I certainly think it's possible. And what if you still didn't like it and said you didn't want him around anymore. And you went all the way to the University President and he said sorry but Sandusky is a Professor Emeritus and he can't be kicked off campus or have his office moved from the football building?Again, speculation. But I do want to get some emails from that time among Schultz, Curley and Spanier to see what they say. I doubt Paterno has any emails unfortunately.

We're talking about Paterno, not just some average successful coach at some university.

Yes and I have thoughts about that but don't want to stir up the trolls so I'll keep them to myself.

 

[Spiderman]

Sandusky's defense will revolve around Histrionic Personality Disorder. Sounds like the Defense may not even dispute the allegations of child rape, but instead may seek to blame it on this rare personality disorder. The disorder is defined as:

Histrionic personality disorder is a condition in which people act in a very emotional and dramatic way that draws attention to themselves.

In all of the descriptions I've read of this condition, I've never once read one of the signs being raping children in a systematic way, so the psychiatrist who will be giving testimony on this one will only succeed in diminishing the profession another notch on the average American's belt.

In short, it appears that the Defense knows that what Sandusky is accused of doing is indefensible and is a pretty airtight case. Very rarely do you have a situation where there is a third party who's credentials are impeccable who witnessed the act. Typically these are the victim vs. the rapist in a he said/she said 10 years after the fact, and when the rapist is high profile, the assumption is always that the victims are coming out now for money. The 3rd party (and in this case, several 3rd parties) throw a wrench in that, making a conviction in this case seem tighter than OJ or Casey Anthony's cases ever were.

The Defense is basically making the pedophilia/rape version of an insanity plea here, which rarely works in any situation anymore. In fact, even temporary insanity or acts of passion (like catching your wife in bed with your best friend when you got off of work early) rarely result in anything other than a reduction in the charges (homicide reduced to manslaughter, etc).

The reality is that this case will likely conclude next week. Sandusky should be found guilty sometime in the next 5-10 days, he should be sentenced soon after that, and he will likely be going to prison for the rest of his life (probably until he's 150 years old). They will try and keep him separate from the general population for his safety since he's both high profile and a kiddie rapist, both of which draws violent human beings in prison toward you like a moth to flame. I would not be surprised if he's on suicide watch the rest of the time he's in prison.

Should something occur where Sandusky somehow beats this after the testimony that was heard in that court room, this will go down as 100x more devastating than OJ or Casey Anthony ever was. OJ was strictly racial and Casey Anthony's evidence was very circumstantial (even though I think easily enough to convict). This is as ironclad a case as anyone could possibly put forth. The only limitation here is the Jury and what is going on in the head of 12 fairly randomly selected human beings.

 

[Joe Summer]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

ConstruxBoy is being pretty rational and level-headed, I think. It's a shame that many other PSU alums aren't as open-minded about the subject.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Sandusky's defense will revolve around Histrionic Personality Disorder. Sounds like the Defense may not even dispute the allegations of child rape, but instead may seek to blame it on this rare personality disorder. The disorder is defined as: Histrionic personality disorder is a condition in which people act in a very emotional and dramatic way that draws attention to themselves.In all of the descriptions I've read of this condition, I've never once read one of the signs being raping children in a systematic way, so the psychiatrist who will be giving testimony on this one will only succeed in diminishing the profession another notch on the average American's belt. In short, it appears that the Defense knows that what Sandusky is accused of doing is indefensible and is a pretty airtight case. Very rarely do you have a situation where there is a third party who's credentials are impeccable who witnessed the act. Typically these are the victim vs. the rapist in a he said/she said 10 years after the fact, and when the rapist is high profile, the assumption is always that the victims are coming out now for money. The 3rd party (and in this case, several 3rd parties) throw a wrench in that, making a conviction in this case seem tighter than OJ or Casey Anthony's cases ever were. The Defense is basically making the pedophilia/rape version of an insanity plea here, which rarely works in any situation anymore. In fact, even temporary insanity or acts of passion (like catching your wife in bed with your best friend when you got off of work early) rarely result in anything other than a reduction in the charges (homicide reduced to manslaughter, etc). The reality is that this case will likely conclude next week. Sandusky should be found guilty sometime in the next 5-10 days, he should be sentenced soon after that, and he will likely be going to prison for the rest of his life (probably until he's 150 years old). They will try and keep him separate from the general population for his safety since he's both high profile and a kiddie rapist, both of which draws violent human beings in prison toward you like a moth to flame. I would not be surprised if he's on suicide watch the rest of the time he's in prison. Should something occur where Sandusky somehow beats this after the testimony that was heard in that court room, this will go down as 100x more devastating than OJ or Casey Anthony ever was. OJ was strictly racial and Casey Anthony's evidence was very circumstantial (even though I think easily enough to convict). This is as ironclad a case as anyone could possibly put forth. The only limitation here is the Jury and what is going on in the head of 12 fairly randomly selected human beings.

Well written thanks. Hoping that the 12 jurors aren't idiots.

 

[Mario Kart]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

And, you are absolutely 100% correct. Thanks for clearing that up.Sorry, I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

 

[mad sweeney]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

And, you are absolutely 100% correct. Thanks for clearing that up.Sorry, I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

Paterno's own words to the Grand Jury.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

And, you are absolutely 100% correct. Thanks for clearing that up.Sorry, I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

Exactly how much more evidence do you need to conclude that he could have done more? Paterno admitted as much before he died.Sandusky was caught in the act by someone on Paterno's staff in the football team's locker room. Paterno was told about the incident, but more kids were harmed in the future and nothing ever happened to Sandusky at all.Would you feel the same about Paterno if you knew the boy who was being raped in the shower that day? How many additional victims could have been protected if JoePa had maybe taken these allegations a bit more seriously?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

And, you are absolutely 100% correct. Thanks for clearing that up.Sorry, I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

Exactly how much more evidence do you need to conclude that he could have done more? Paterno admitted as much before he died.Sandusky was caught in the act by someone on Paterno's staff in the football team's locker room. Paterno was told about the incident, but more kids were harmed in the future and nothing ever happened to Sandusky at all.Would you feel the same about Paterno if you knew the boy who was being raped in the shower that day? How many additional victims could have been protected if JoePa had maybe taken these allegations a bit more seriously?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Paterno could have and should have done more. I'm sure not. I think the argument is whether he knew that the same thing had happened to other kids in the past and would continue to happen to other kids in the future. Now, if there was any possibility of that should have done more to find out? Hell yes. But that's different than saying he did know and chose not to do anything.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

And, you are absolutely 100% correct. Thanks for clearing that up.Sorry, I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

Exactly how much more evidence do you need to conclude that he could have done more? Paterno admitted as much before he died.Sandusky was caught in the act by someone on Paterno's staff in the football team's locker room. Paterno was told about the incident, but more kids were harmed in the future and nothing ever happened to Sandusky at all.Would you feel the same about Paterno if you knew the boy who was being raped in the shower that day? How many additional victims could have been protected if JoePa had maybe taken these allegations a bit more seriously?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Paterno could have and should have done more. I'm sure not. I think the argument is whether he knew that the same thing had happened to other kids in the past and would continue to happen to other kids in the future. Now, if there was any possibility of that should have done more to find out? Hell yes. But that's different than saying he did know and chose not to do anything.

Kev's initial quote above says "Paterno did what he could do"coming from a teacher, that's a very disturbing thing for me to read.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

And, you are absolutely 100% correct. Thanks for clearing that up.Sorry, I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

Exactly how much more evidence do you need to conclude that he could have done more? Paterno admitted as much before he died.Sandusky was caught in the act by someone on Paterno's staff in the football team's locker room. Paterno was told about the incident, but more kids were harmed in the future and nothing ever happened to Sandusky at all.Would you feel the same about Paterno if you knew the boy who was being raped in the shower that day? How many additional victims could have been protected if JoePa had maybe taken these allegations a bit more seriously?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Paterno could have and should have done more. I'm sure not. I think the argument is whether he knew that the same thing had happened to other kids in the past and would continue to happen to other kids in the future. Now, if there was any possibility of that should have done more to find out? Hell yes. But that's different than saying he did know and chose not to do anything.

Kev's initial quote above says "Paterno did what he could do"coming from a teacher, that's a very disturbing thing for me to read.

Ah yes, sorry. Missed that. Agree with you. He did not do what he could.

 

[Sea Duck]

I choose to wait until all/most of the evidence is out there before I tarnish someone's memory. What we do know is that Paterno "knew" of one incident which may or may not have been conveyed to him in the manner some people like to assume. Again, I apologize for allowing the evidence to surface and conclude a decision based on such before convicting any person to a life of damnation.

You will wait until the end of time for evidence that does not exist.

 

[timschochet]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished.

Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

 

[Smack Tripper]

People like to blame Paterno because he deserves some of the blame. The other guys deserve blame too. I don't see anyone defending the other guys in this thread, do you?

No, but the "blame Paterno" fan club is out in full force when it should not be. The guy saw nothing (presumably) and informed the person (McQueary) who did see it to do more.Paterno did what he could do.

You are completely wrong. Paterno's name is forever smeared and if he were alive today he should be in jail. How you people can accept unacceptable behavior is beyond me. Have you NO sense of what is wrong or right? If one of your employees told you what he was told what would you do? What if it were your kid? As an adult it is your job to protect children. Paterno allowed more children to be hurt because he was less than a man. HOW can you defend him? Any of you? Sickening.

No, PERFECT posting. I hope you Paterno defenders one day see the light here.

 

[mad sweeney]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished. Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

It's child rape, not embezzlement or recruiting violations or Ponzi schemes. CHILD RAPE. The line you draw when protecting friends is certainly not something that's easily or clearly defined, but child rape is most definitely on the wrong side.

 

[cubd8]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished. Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

In one sentence you say that he may have helped guarantee that some children were in danger, and in the next sentence you say you don't see him as a vile, evil SOB, and, in fact, a sad and tragic figure.This is pretty simple. Paterno was the most powerful figure in that state. He knew what Sandusky was doing, and only forced him out of the coaching ranks while still allowing him to remain on the campus. Every day for at least 7 or 8 years, and probably going back to 1997, Paterno put his program ahead of kids who were being raped in his school's showers. Paterno was also knee deep in the 2nd Mile Charity as were several others at Penn St. All of these people were connected, and they all looked the other way when they knew about Sandusky because they didn't want their program being tainted.Sad? Tragic? For the kids yes. For Paterno? No, he didn't rape anybody and Sandusky is the evilest person in this mess, but Paterno was the most powerful and chose to do nothing. I'd say he's a piece of crap who didn't a crap about his bank accounts and his football program.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Serious question -- Is there anybody out there who is NOT a Penn State fan/alumn who really thinks that Paterno didn't know about this and cover it up? In my casual reading about this case, it seems like Paterno's guilt is universally acknowledged by everybody except Penn State partisans.

I'm a PSU alum but see my post below yours. Knowing and actively covering up are different I think. I can't imagine how anyone could think he didn't know when he's testified about what McQueary told him.

That's actually a really nice post. It seems to me, though, that Paterno deserves bit of criticism that's been thrown his way if was a 3, and I agree with you that seems like the most likely scenario by far.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

ConstruxBoy is being pretty rational and level-headed, I think. It's a shame that many other PSU alums aren't as open-minded about the subject.

So many of threads around here get ruined by #######s who can't carry on an adult conversation about sensitive topics (I'm thinking specifically of the Trayvon Martin thread, but this one counts too). Why single out the guy who's actually articulating a pretty nuanced position and not resorting to trolling or name-calling?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished.

Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

Do you take the same attitude toward higher-ups in the Catholic church who tried to protect long-time friends and colleagues from charges of child molestation? Again, this is a serious question. Maybe you do. I'm trying to really hard to put myself in Paterno's shoes and imagine covering for looking the other way for a guy who I thought was raping kids, and I'm just coming up blank.Edit: Some will quibble with "covering for" so I softened this a little.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished. Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

Wow. I guess we shouldn't be surprised by this. After all, you are a fan of Big Ben and Kobe.

 

[joffer]

Really unbelievable that so many of you are still trying to make this thread about Paterno

 

[Todd Andrews]

If it's true that Joe Paterno knew about what Sandusky was doing, but covered up for him and allowed him to remain connected with Penn State in order to avoid staining the school's reputation, then he (Paterno) deserves all of the scorn that posters like Todd Andrews and bagger has expressed, and we should revile his memory. And if others at Penn State knew about this and covered it up in order to protect Paterno, then they need to be condemned as well. And possibly prosecuted. But unless there's clear cut proof of this stuff, then I think we should refrain from the accusations against these people. ConstruxBoy's post suggests a different possibilty in the case of Paterno, and there may also be different possibilities in the case of the others as well. What I absolutely reject is the argument that several people here have made, to the effect that, "Of course they knew, how could they NOT have known?" Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. People are stupid. People blind themselves to unpleasant facts. People are gullible. These things make them guilty of nothing except stupidity, blindness and gullibility. It doesn't make them evil. If you're going to call people "vile pathetic child rape enablers" you had better have clear-cut evidence to demonstrate it, otherwise you're just as vile as you claim they are.

Paterno's own Grand Jury testimony alone shows that he knew what was going on. I don't know how much more clear-cut that can be.

What was going on is that over a number of years Sandusky was systematically befriending and abusing a number of young boys through his charity. Where in Paterno's testimony does he say that?

He doesn't, but he does show that he knew specifically about one incident and yet Sandusky continued to be around the football team with young children and JoPa did nothing about it.

I agree with you completely on this statement. However you imply that therefore he had to know that it was not a one time incident. I think it seems obvious to us in hindsight, or to someone who studies child molesters (and let's be honest, we all know a hell of lot more about them now than we ever wanted to). But I think to someone who didn't have hindsight or knowledge of molesters it wasn't as easy a connection. Hope we get more evidence soon though.

Whether he did it once or a thousand times, how can you not make sure it isn't still happening if you see the guy constantly with young kids at your facility and closely associated with your organization?

What if you were lied to and told that he was watched by someone from Second Mile who talked to the kids and made sure nothing like that ever happened again? What if that guy was the head of Second Mile or the head of Campus Police?

You are insane. Stop defending child rape enablers and child rape protectors. It is sickening.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Serious question -- Is there anybody out there who is NOT a Penn State fan/alumn who really thinks that Paterno didn't know about this and cover it up? In my casual reading about this case, it seems like Paterno's guilt is universally acknowledged by everybody except Penn State partisans.

I'm a PSU alum but see my post below yours. Knowing and actively covering up are different I think. I can't imagine how anyone could think he didn't know when he's testified about what McQueary told him.

That's actually a really nice post. It seems to me, though, that Paterno deserves bit of criticism that's been thrown his way if was a 3, and I agree with you that seems like the most likely scenario by far.

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Is Construx one of Paterno's kids? Geez

ConstruxBoy is being pretty rational and level-headed, I think. It's a shame that many other PSU alums aren't as open-minded about the subject.

So many of threads around here get ruined by #######s who can't carry on an adult conversation about sensitive topics (I'm thinking specifically of the Trayvon Martin thread, but this one counts too). Why single out the guy who's actually articulating a pretty nuanced position and not resorting to trolling or name-calling?

Thanks again guys.

 

[timschochet]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished.

Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

Do you take the same attitude toward higher-ups in the Catholic church who tried to protect long-time friends and colleagues from charges of child molestation? Again, this is a serious question. Maybe you do. I'm trying to really hard to put myself in Paterno's shoes and imagine covering for looking the other way for a guy who I thought was raping kids, and I'm just coming up blank.Edit: Some will quibble with "covering for" so I softened this a little.

I'm not sure it's a proper analogy, because some of those Catholic higher ups were in charge of the actual investigation of these crimes. But the answer to your question is yes, if such a story were presented to me the same way, I would always feel the same. This does not mean we should forgive Paterno. Though it's also not a great analogy, I sort of think of the Burt Lancaster character from Judgment at Nuremberg. Lancaster's character is actually much guiltier than Paterno, but I feel the same sort of sadness mixed with ambiguity, if that makes any sense.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished.

Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

Do you take the same attitude toward higher-ups in the Catholic church who tried to protect long-time friends and colleagues from charges of child molestation? Again, this is a serious question. Maybe you do. I'm trying to really hard to put myself in Paterno's shoes and imagine covering for looking the other way for a guy who I thought was raping kids, and I'm just coming up blank.Edit: Some will quibble with "covering for" so I softened this a little.

Maybe this thing called Motivated Blindness? LinkWish I knew.

 

[timschochet]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

This has nothing to do with the success of Joe Paterno or Penn State. It has everything to do with what was done to several innocent young boys and that MANY people knew about it and DIDN'T DO ENOUGH TO STOP IT!

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

I think you're way more focused on Penn St football and Paterno than you are on the victims. You're coming across to me as blame anyone but Paterno here.

 

[CrossEyed]

Agree with Aaron. Paterno could have done more. Paterno made some serious mistakes here, and in so doing, may have helped guarantee that some children were put in danger. For this, his legacy deserves to be forever tarnished. Does this make Paterno the vile evil SOB that some here, like Todd Andrews, have tried to make him? I don't see it. He comes off to me as a sad and tragic figure who, in trying to protect a long time friend of his, didn't really consider the consequences of his actions. It's sad and terrible. But he's not exactly a co-conspirator, and he's not evil, IMO.

"The only thing required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."But I would argue that when you know that evil is happening and you do nothing to stop it when you could...you certainly aren't good. And you just might be evil.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

I think you're way more focused on Penn St football and Paterno than you are on the victims. You're coming across to me as blame anyone but Paterno here.

If I may interject to all these points, these two scenarios are not, ARE NOT mutually exclusive. Sandusky's opportunity was facilitated by access to the physical space, credibility and status and celebrity of PennState Football. That is not PSU's fault, this is a ******* taking advantage of all of those situations converging, in shepherding damaged children in a part of Pennsylvania and America where God, nearly in no uncertain terms, took a backseat to PSU football. It was bigger than big, it was life. And in so being, it was too big to fail. Of course, the rational person might say, this is a dopey football program, for whatever else gets assigned or attached to it, but when we let things like this get bigger than life, you can create in effect Gods among men. The persistent defense of Paterno by many shows this. The reason you CAN'T separate these elements is because to an outsider, objective perspective, the reason Paterno DIDN'T act was at best to keep the PSU machine a rollin. At worst, it was to preserve his own legacy. I have my own thoughts as to his choices but I'll concede that the truth may be somewhat in between. But lets not lose sight here, this is a man who was so tone deaf that he thought he was going to dictate terms at the end of this season. As the scope and depth created a national tidal wave, Joe Paterno focused on coaching football, seemingly oblivious to exactly what that culture has created. The fact that it was all bigger than life in great likelyhood informed the decisions of all these people. The reason people focus on Paterno is because this behavior continued for AT LEAST another 10 years (depending on whether this was known in 1997 or 2001. PSU and Paterno supporters, I can relate, being a Catholic. You really have two choices given our stained and sorry history as a church. You can blindly say that that these were the actions of a few sick priests, which is true, or you can reject the actions of the Catholic machine which has been absolutely a disgraceful embarassment in handling that situation. I have taken deliberate steps away form the church but I have not left it. That is not a solution. I can not and will not give up my church. In my own mind, I want to find a way to save it and change it. Of course, its a challenge against that machine so I still ponder it. So in my personal opinion and to my personal standard, you don't have to give up on PSU or all that goes with it, but I think it is fair to say, you need to reject the establishment and more importantly, the culture of pedestalizing a person or a sport over individuals. This is not easy to do, I'll grant you, but is what needs to be done. Fight for your school. But that doesn't mean fighting for a man who was stronger than anyone who chose not to fight for the weakest among us.

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

I think you're way more focused on Penn St football and Paterno than you are on the victims. You're coming across to me as blame anyone but Paterno here.

If I may interject to all these points, these two scenarios are not, ARE NOT mutually exclusive. Sandusky's opportunity was facilitated by access to the physical space, credibility and status and celebrity of PennState Football. That is not PSU's fault, this is a ******* taking advantage of all of those situations converging, in shepherding damaged children in a part of Pennsylvania and America where God, nearly in no uncertain terms, took a backseat to PSU football. It was bigger than big, it was life. And in so being, it was too big to fail. Of course, the rational person might say, this is a dopey football program, for whatever else gets assigned or attached to it, but when we let things like this get bigger than life, you can create in effect Gods among men. The persistent defense of Paterno by many shows this.

The reason you CAN'T separate these elements is because to an outsider, objective perspective, the reason Paterno DIDN'T act was at best to keep the PSU machine a rollin. At worst, it was to preserve his own legacy. I have my own thoughts as to his choices but I'll concede that the truth may be somewhat in between.

But lets not lose sight here, this is a man who was so tone deaf that he thought he was going to dictate terms at the end of this season. As the scope and depth created a national tidal wave, Joe Paterno focused on coaching football, seemingly oblivious to exactly what that culture has created. The fact that it was all bigger than life in great likelyhood informed the decisions of all these people.

The reason people focus on Paterno is because this behavior continued for AT LEAST another 10 years (depending on whether this was known in 1997 or 2001.

PSU and Paterno supporters, I can relate, being a Catholic. You really have two choices given our stained and sorry history as a church. You can blindly say that that these were the actions of a few sick priests, which is true, or you can reject the actions of the Catholic machine which has been absolutely a disgraceful embarassment in handling that situation. I have taken deliberate steps away form the church but I have not left it. That is not a solution. I can not and will not give up my church. In my own mind, I want to find a way to save it and change it. Of course, its a challenge against that machine so I still ponder it.

So in my personal opinion and to my personal standard, you don't have to give up on PSU or all that goes with it, but I think it is fair to say, you need to reject the establishment and more importantly, the culture of pedestalizing a person or a sport over individuals. This is not easy to do, I'll grant you, but is what needs to be done.



Fight for your school. But that doesn't mean fighting for a man who was stronger than anyone who chose not to fight for the weakest among us.

Wow...that sums it up!

 

[Billy Bats]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

I think you're way more focused on Penn St football and Paterno than you are on the victims. You're coming across to me as blame anyone but Paterno here.

If I may interject to all these points, these two scenarios are not, ARE NOT mutually exclusive. Sandusky's opportunity was facilitated by access to the physical space, credibility and status and celebrity of PennState Football. That is not PSU's fault, this is a ******* taking advantage of all of those situations converging, in shepherding damaged children in a part of Pennsylvania and America where God, nearly in no uncertain terms, took a backseat to PSU football. It was bigger than big, it was life. And in so being, it was too big to fail. Of course, the rational person might say, this is a dopey football program, for whatever else gets assigned or attached to it, but when we let things like this get bigger than life, you can create in effect Gods among men. The persistent defense of Paterno by many shows this.

The reason you CAN'T separate these elements is because to an outsider, objective perspective, the reason Paterno DIDN'T act was at best to keep the PSU machine a rollin. At worst, it was to preserve his own legacy. I have my own thoughts as to his choices but I'll concede that the truth may be somewhat in between.

But lets not lose sight here, this is a man who was so tone deaf that he thought he was going to dictate terms at the end of this season. As the scope and depth created a national tidal wave, Joe Paterno focused on coaching football, seemingly oblivious to exactly what that culture has created. The fact that it was all bigger than life in great likelyhood informed the decisions of all these people.

The reason people focus on Paterno is because this behavior continued for AT LEAST another 10 years (depending on whether this was known in 1997 or 2001.

PSU and Paterno supporters, I can relate, being a Catholic. You really have two choices given our stained and sorry history as a church. You can blindly say that that these were the actions of a few sick priests, which is true, or you can reject the actions of the Catholic machine which has been absolutely a disgraceful embarassment in handling that situation. I have taken deliberate steps away form the church but I have not left it. That is not a solution. I can not and will not give up my church. In my own mind, I want to find a way to save it and change it. Of course, its a challenge against that machine so I still ponder it.

So in my personal opinion and to my personal standard, you don't have to give up on PSU or all that goes with it, but I think it is fair to say, you need to reject the establishment and more importantly, the culture of pedestalizing a person or a sport over individuals. This is not easy to do, I'll grant you, but is what needs to be done.



Fight for your school. But that doesn't mean fighting for a man who was stronger than anyone who chose not to fight for the weakest among us.

Wow...that sums it up!

Probably the best sentence written in this entire thread.But I can understand why it's so hard for PSU alumns to separate Joe from Penn St the institution. He was Penn St. You hear Penn St and you think JoePa and the white and blue uniforms. Hearing that this larger than life legend turned away from such ghastly events is probably difficult to comprehend. Its very easy for me to see JoePa's fault in this, but I can understand the struggle of the Penn St family to do the same.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Thanks. And yes, he deserves a hell of a lot of criticism. And there's something else here to remember: It's not tragic. It's not horrible. It's not comparable. But PSU fans and alumni are devastated by this. Devastated. Not just the fact that a man we "knew" to be a great coach on the field and a great figure off it, donating to the school, refusing to let players skate through classes, is now thought of as a horrible person that "everyone" is glad is dead. But that WE are associated with it. And always will be. And will always get #### from people about it. I have a bunch of PSU shirts that I used to wear to the gym and I seldom wear them anymore. The only one I actually wear is a maroon shirt with Penn State on the front in orange that was done as a tribute to the Virginia Tech shootings right after they happened. But this morning at the gym I saw a guy come in with a PSU football shirt. And the back said "Success with Honor" over and over again. And I thought, I sure hope no one here is a real life tough guy and jumps that guy because of that shirt and starts giving him #### about Paterno. And that's what we have to worry about it going forward. We're the largest dues-paying alumni association in the country. And we all have to watch our backs and what we say and how we cheer. Because there are some, possibly a lot, of people who think we did it. We enabled it. We cheered on Sandusky as he raped some kid in the shower. And that's sad. But I guess it's life. So try to give us a little bit of a break. We'd appreciate it.

There's a lot of people here and elsewhere who don't want to give you a break, because they're enjoying the fact that you're devastated about this. And they love sticking it to you.

Yeah, I see that. And I understand and don't take it personally. When you've had a lot of success, you make some enemies and people love to tear you down. And Penn State football has certainly had a ton of success and likely has a lot of enemies. It is what it is. And no, we're not all thin-skinned or anything. I think in general we want to try to correct some of the inaccuracies/sweeping statements about this scandal but we certainly are all angry/sad/hurt. Comes with the territory.

I think you're way more focused on Penn St football and Paterno than you are on the victims. You're coming across to me as blame anyone but Paterno here.

If I may interject to all these points, these two scenarios are not, ARE NOT mutually exclusive. Sandusky's opportunity was facilitated by access to the physical space, credibility and status and celebrity of PennState Football. That is not PSU's fault, this is a ******* taking advantage of all of those situations converging, in shepherding damaged children in a part of Pennsylvania and America where God, nearly in no uncertain terms, took a backseat to PSU football. It was bigger than big, it was life. And in so being, it was too big to fail. Of course, the rational person might say, this is a dopey football program, for whatever else gets assigned or attached to it, but when we let things like this get bigger than life, you can create in effect Gods among men. The persistent defense of Paterno by many shows this. The reason you CAN'T separate these elements is because to an outsider, objective perspective, the reason Paterno DIDN'T act was at best to keep the PSU machine a rollin. At worst, it was to preserve his own legacy. I have my own thoughts as to his choices but I'll concede that the truth may be somewhat in between. But lets not lose sight here, this is a man who was so tone deaf that he thought he was going to dictate terms at the end of this season. As the scope and depth created a national tidal wave, Joe Paterno focused on coaching football, seemingly oblivious to exactly what that culture has created. The fact that it was all bigger than life in great likelyhood informed the decisions of all these people. The reason people focus on Paterno is because this behavior continued for AT LEAST another 10 years (depending on whether this was known in 1997 or 2001. PSU and Paterno supporters, I can relate, being a Catholic. You really have two choices given our stained and sorry history as a church. You can blindly say that that these were the actions of a few sick priests, which is true, or you can reject the actions of the Catholic machine which has been absolutely a disgraceful embarassment in handling that situation. I have taken deliberate steps away form the church but I have not left it. That is not a solution. I can not and will not give up my church. In my own mind, I want to find a way to save it and change it. Of course, its a challenge against that machine so I still ponder it. So in my personal opinion and to my personal standard, you don't have to give up on PSU or all that goes with it, but I think it is fair to say, you need to reject the establishment and more importantly, the culture of pedestalizing a person or a sport over individuals. This is not easy to do, I'll grant you, but is what needs to be done. Fight for your school. But that doesn't mean fighting for a man who was stronger than anyone who chose not to fight for the weakest among us.

I agree in general with what you're saying. I don't think there is much more to say until more facts/evidence about cover ups come out. However I don't think you'll see PSU deifying any one else anytime soon. That's crazy. We see what it can cause. You may want to start working on fans of Alabama football or Duke basketball though. Those are the two programs most likely to fall into the same trap we did. Thanks to everyone for the good conversation and perspective.