Jerry Sandusky accused of child molestation (1 Viewer)

[ConstruxBoy]

I don't think there is something in there that specifically says they won't punish criminal activity. But given that they've never stepped in to do that through athletes stealing, beating their girlfriends, getting DUIs, coaches getting DUIs, athletes commiting murder, etc., I don't think it's something in their charter to do that.

The NCAA is not punishing criminal activity.

So committing perjury while covering up a child molester isn't criminal? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have to disagree.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I don't think there is something in there that specifically says they won't punish criminal activity. But given that they've never stepped in to do that through athletes stealing, beating their girlfriends, getting DUIs, coaches getting DUIs, athletes commiting murder, etc., I don't think it's something in their charter to do that.

The NCAA is not punishing criminal activity.

So committing perjury while covering up a child molester isn't criminal? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have to disagree.

You're better than this. Or so I thought.

 

[Christo]

I don't think there is something in there that specifically says they won't punish criminal activity. But given that they've never stepped in to do that through athletes stealing, beating their girlfriends, getting DUIs, coaches getting DUIs, athletes commiting murder, etc., I don't think it's something in their charter to do that.

The NCAA is not punishing criminal activity.

There was a pedophile and people who covered for the pedophile. What am I missing?

 

[AAABatteries]

There was a pedophile and people who covered for the pedophile. What am I missing?

I wouldn't call myself an expert on your work but I think you are missing a

 

[CrossEyed]

BTW, please stop referring to the current players, coaches, fans, etc. as " victims". It's insulting to the only group of victims who truly exist in this situation.

 

[uconnalum]

Penn State trustees still don't get it.

"Emmert has been given full reign by the pansy presidents (at other universities) to make his own decision," said the trustee, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "He has been given the authority to impose these unprecedented sanctions. It's horrible."

Rumors are multiple year bowl ban, scholarship losses, multiple year TV ban. Some are saying 5yr bowl and TV ban. NCAA will also waive the xfer waiting period for all football players.

NCAA should also require PSU to place rules and procedures in place so the actions of the Football Department are fully transparent to the students, administrators in other departments, and taxpayers (it is a state university). Take the statue discussions many students and administrators were very upset with the lack of transparency it was handled with.

 

[Chaka]

Are we all in agreement that other than Sandusky himself, McQueary is the biggest POS in this whole ordeal?

How does a "man" walk by that act in the showers and not leave Sandusky a bloody, unconscious mess?

You're asking why an ordinary man failed to act like a hero man?

It's a boy getting raped by an old man. You don't need to be a hero, just a human.

You really think that stopping crime is human nature? Because the Sandusky story tends to prove otherwise. There were at least a dozen people who could have stepped up to stop Sandusky, but none of them did. Each one of them acted like cowards in one way or another.People tend to avoid danger and conflict. That's human nature.

Stopping all crime, no. Stopping some crimes, yes. Sandusky posed no danger to a 26 year old large athletic man. Protecting children is one of the natural human instincts. So is conflict, as the constant state of warfare that exists on the Earth since forever shows. The people involved in the cover up didn't see it, they didn't have the visceral fight or flight moment to spur them into action. They were dealing with it without having witnessed it, so at that point I can see that their basic instincts wouldn't be as engaged. But every single creature on Earth is ingrained with protection of their young as one of the most prime instincts they possess. If not THE prime instinct.

"Their young", not "all young". That is a huge difference and you can find examples of this littered throughout the history of most species including man. I am quite certain that if it was McQueary's son it would have played out completely differently.We're animals, as much as we wish to tell ourselves otherwise our primary drivers are almost entirely selfish. Many people would have done something proactive in McQueary's position but many more would have done exactly the same thing he did, or less even. No one, not even you, knows how they would act when confronted with extreme circumstances. It is our hubris that convinces us otherwise.

 

[Christo]

Are we all in agreement that other than Sandusky himself, McQueary is the biggest POS in this whole ordeal?

How does a "man" walk by that act in the showers and not leave Sandusky a bloody, unconscious mess?

You're asking why an ordinary man failed to act like a hero man?

It's a boy getting raped by an old man. You don't need to be a hero, just a human.

You really think that stopping crime is human nature? Because the Sandusky story tends to prove otherwise. There were at least a dozen people who could have stepped up to stop Sandusky, but none of them did. Each one of them acted like cowards in one way or another.People tend to avoid danger and conflict. That's human nature.

Stopping all crime, no. Stopping some crimes, yes. Sandusky posed no danger to a 26 year old large athletic man. Protecting children is one of the natural human instincts. So is conflict, as the constant state of warfare that exists on the Earth since forever shows. The people involved in the cover up didn't see it, they didn't have the visceral fight or flight moment to spur them into action. They were dealing with it without having witnessed it, so at that point I can see that their basic instincts wouldn't be as engaged. But every single creature on Earth is ingrained with protection of their young as one of the most prime instincts they possess. If not THE prime instinct.

"Their young", not "all young". That is a huge difference and you can find examples of this littered throughout the history of most species including man. I am quite certain that if it was McQueary's son it would have played out completely differently.We're animals, as much as we wish to tell ourselves otherwise our primary drivers are almost entirely selfish. Many people would have done something proactive in McQueary's position but many more would have done exactly the same thing he did, or less even. No one, not even you, knows how they would act when confronted with extreme circumstances. It is our hubris that convinces us otherwise.

Yep, We've had this discussion before in other contexts. People can say what they want on a message board. But they really don't know how they'd react unless they were faced with the situation.

 

[Smack Tripper]

LOL, just got a call from my wife's cousins who are huge Clemson supporters and they finally get it. "Why the hell is the NCAA involved? This isn't their jurisdiction". "This is a huge power grab by the NCAA. What will happen when other football teams have criminal activity?" "Let the Dept of education or state of Pennsylvania deal with sanctions". Then one of them went on a rant about the NCAA saying that Dabo was talking locally about a group of teams breaking away from the NCAA and maybe Penn State should just start that now. Good to see fans of other football factories see what the NCAA is trying to do here.

Do you really think the NCAA is stepping in because criminal activity took place? You don't see the problem that child rape is worth than stealing some electronics or something similar? You don't see the NCAA is stepping in because there were decades of coverup to a terrible crime involving the football program and football facilities and one motive of the coverup was to protect the football program and it's money?Stop trying to minimalize things and acting like the NCAA is being a big bully here. And then claiming other fans are unfairly treating PSU fans harshly. The NCAA wouldn't have to step in if someone at PSU had the decency to do it themselves! The NCAA should police these football factories more!

Expecting the NCAA to abide by its rules is not "minimizing things."

Is there anything in their rules that indicate they WON'T police this sort of conduct?

It doesn't work like that.

How DOES it work?

?

 

[Christo]

LOL, just got a call from my wife's cousins who are huge Clemson supporters and they finally get it. "Why the hell is the NCAA involved? This isn't their jurisdiction". "This is a huge power grab by the NCAA. What will happen when other football teams have criminal activity?" "Let the Dept of education or state of Pennsylvania deal with sanctions". Then one of them went on a rant about the NCAA saying that Dabo was talking locally about a group of teams breaking away from the NCAA and maybe Penn State should just start that now. Good to see fans of other football factories see what the NCAA is trying to do here.

Do you really think the NCAA is stepping in because criminal activity took place? You don't see the problem that child rape is worth than stealing some electronics or something similar? You don't see the NCAA is stepping in because there were decades of coverup to a terrible crime involving the football program and football facilities and one motive of the coverup was to protect the football program and it's money?Stop trying to minimalize things and acting like the NCAA is being a big bully here. And then claiming other fans are unfairly treating PSU fans harshly. The NCAA wouldn't have to step in if someone at PSU had the decency to do it themselves! The NCAA should police these football factories more!

Expecting the NCAA to abide by its rules is not "minimizing things."

Is there anything in their rules that indicate they WON'T police this sort of conduct?

It doesn't work like that.

How DOES it work?

?

Seriously? This is a concept you are having difficulty with? An association is no different than a government. It is an organization formed by its members to serve its members. The members give it certain powers. These powers can be set forth in many types of agreements, e.g., constitution, by-laws, operating agreement. The organization has no more power than is set forth in the agreement. If the organization attempts to act in a manner that is not provided for in the agreement its actions are unconstitutional, beyond its powers, a breach, in bad faith, illegal--whatever you want to call it.

 

[Smack Tripper]

LOL, just got a call from my wife's cousins who are huge Clemson supporters and they finally get it. "Why the hell is the NCAA involved? This isn't their jurisdiction". "This is a huge power grab by the NCAA. What will happen when other football teams have criminal activity?" "Let the Dept of education or state of Pennsylvania deal with sanctions". Then one of them went on a rant about the NCAA saying that Dabo was talking locally about a group of teams breaking away from the NCAA and maybe Penn State should just start that now.

Good to see fans of other football factories see what the NCAA is trying to do here.

Do you really think the NCAA is stepping in because criminal activity took place? You don't see the problem that child rape is worth than stealing some electronics or something similar? You don't see the NCAA is stepping in because there were decades of coverup to a terrible crime involving the football program and football facilities and one motive of the coverup was to protect the football program and it's money?Stop trying to minimalize things and acting like the NCAA is being a big bully here. And then claiming other fans are unfairly treating PSU fans harshly. The NCAA wouldn't have to step in if someone at PSU had the decency to do it themselves! The NCAA should police these football factories more!

Expecting the NCAA to abide by its rules is not "minimizing things."

Is there anything in their rules that indicate they WON'T police this sort of conduct?

It doesn't work like that.

How DOES it work?

?

Seriously? This is a concept you are having difficulty with? An association is no different than a government. It is an organization formed by its members to serve its members. The members give it certain powers. These powers can be set forth in many types of agreements, e.g., constitution, by-laws, operating agreement. The organization has no more power than is set forth in the agreement. If the organization attempts to act in a manner that is not provided for in the agreement its actions are unconstitutional, beyond its powers, a breach, in bad faith, illegal--whatever you want to call it.

No, I'm having difficulty with your distinction. This is NOT government, nor is this a court of law. Its a charter organization and one which does not, in any meaningful way that I've seen, limit the discretionary judgement power of the governing body.

While civil and criminal complaints may be subject to established laws and precedence in regard to reaching a judgement, I don't see how there isn't enough grey area under the NCAA mission statement to justify jurisdiction here. Thats why I asked you if you were aware of any specific language limiting their powers. I can respect your attempt to define a distinction, but as at-will members of this organization, I don't see what leg they have to stand on, particularly when the mission statement, which has been posted more than once includes the following parameters by which to act in this case:

Mission Statement of NCAA*

Core Ideology:

The NCAA's core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization's reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.

Core Purpose:

Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

Core Values:

The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

· The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.

· The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.

· The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.

· The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

· An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.

· Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.

· Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

I will grant you its a wide swath, but I'm pretty sure if they anticipated this sort of situation, they would have put don't cover up child molestation in the NCAA by-laws. Since there is nothing prohibiting their sanctions, and there is a governing body of the NCAA made up of fellow universities, I don't see how they are violating their rules when none seem to exist.

If you can point me to some more concrete language, I'm willing to listen. As of now though, Penn State would seem to have problems with both integrity and their "sense of community. "

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I don't think there is something in there that specifically says they won't punish criminal activity. But given that they've never stepped in to do that through athletes stealing, beating their girlfriends, getting DUIs, coaches getting DUIs, athletes commiting murder, etc., I don't think it's something in their charter to do that.

The NCAA is not punishing criminal activity.

So committing perjury while covering up a child molester isn't criminal? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have to disagree.

How is that relevant? Of course those are crimes. And maybe Sandusky and Paterno will get lifetime bans, or maybe a few other individuals will be sanctioned also to create a technicality where I'm overstating this, but Penn State is not being sanctioned for the crimes against society. They are being punished for the crimes against the 1100 members of the NCAA.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I guess the answer to child abuse is to punish future students of Penn St! A funny world we live in today. Look Sandusky should be killed and those that covered up should pay a price. But where do you draw the line on how a business is punished? Did the business hurt those kids? And please don't say that the Univ is part of the abuse when the Truth is that Sandusky would of still had access to children and he used Penn St and I am willing to bet other businesses in the area to invite the children.

People making this "why punish the innocents?" argument must be paying attention to college sports for the first time.Virtually every punishment adopted by the NCAA harms innocents. That's how college sports work. Urban Meyer and the current Ohio State football players didn't take improper benefits and cover them up (as far as we know). Larry Fedora and the current UNC football players didn't take improper benefits and/or get too much assistance from tutors (as far as we know). Pete Carroll and the USC football players of the last couple years ... well they probably did cheat, but their cheating isn't what the NCAA caught and punished.If you're looking for a system where the wrongdoers and only the wrongdoers are punished, look to the criminal justice system, not the NCAA. That's not now the NCAA works. It's unfair; always has been, always will be. If you don't like rules and enforcement mechanisms that are blatantly unfair and essentially arbitrary, don't follow college sports. You're just asking for trouble. But if you choose to follow college sports, don't complain about it being arbitrary. There's many, many decades of precedent for this nonsense, you should have known what you were getting into.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

anyone have a link to the press conference?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I don't think there is something in there that specifically says they won't punish criminal activity. But given that they've never stepped in to do that through athletes stealing, beating their girlfriends, getting DUIs, coaches getting DUIs, athletes commiting murder, etc., I don't think it's something in their charter to do that.

The NCAA is not punishing criminal activity.

So committing perjury while covering up a child molester isn't criminal? I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have to disagree.

How is that relevant? Of course those are crimes. And maybe Sandusky and Paterno will get lifetime bans, or maybe a few other individuals will be sanctioned also to create a technicality where I'm overstating this, but Penn State is not being sanctioned for the crimes against society. They are being punished for the crimes against the 1100 members of the NCAA.

Is it bad that I don't feel as badly about crimes against the NCAA as I do about crimes against society?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

So I guess the answer to child abuse is to punish future students of Penn St! A funny world we live in today. Look Sandusky should be killed and those that covered up should pay a price. But where do you draw the line on how a business is punished? Did the business hurt those kids? And please don't say that the Univ is part of the abuse when the Truth is that Sandusky would of still had access to children and he used Penn St and I am willing to bet other businesses in the area to invite the children.

People making this "why punish the innocents?" argument must be paying attention to college sports for the first time.Virtually every punishment adopted by the NCAA harms innocents. That's how college sports work. Urban Meyer and the current Ohio State football players didn't take improper benefits and cover them up (as far as we know). Larry Fedora and the current UNC football players didn't take improper benefits and/or get too much assistance from tutors (as far as we know). Pete Carroll and the USC football players of the last couple years ... well they probably did cheat, but their cheating isn't what the NCAA caught and punished.If you're looking for a system where the wrongdoers and only the wrongdoers are punished, look to the criminal justice system, not the NCAA. That's not now the NCAA works. It's unfair; always has been, always will be. If you don't like rules and enforcement mechanisms that are blatantly unfair and essentially arbitrary, don't follow college sports. You're just asking for trouble. But if you choose to follow college sports, don't complain about it being arbitrary. There's many, many decades of precedent for this nonsense, you should have known what you were getting into.

My reply to this argument isn't great, but I think it's somewhat relevant. In almost all those other cases, someone up the chain was still around to be punished. Sure, Urban Meyer and the players didn't do anything, but the AD Gene Smith and the President Gordan Gee were around and should be responsible to a degree for the actions of the past. Same with UNC and USC, although at least USC fired their AD Mike Garrett. In this case, the AD and President are gone. And I don't believe there are very many BOT members that were on the board in 1998 and 2001. So really, almost the entire power structure responsible is gone, which is, to use Mr Emmert's favorite word, unprecedented.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Is it bad that I don't feel as badly about crimes against the NCAA as I do about crimes against society?

No! I would hope you wouldn't.I'd also suggest that your earlier post (I think it was you) about you would much rather that Penn State make this announcement rather than the NCAA seems impossible with the reaction from a large percentage of the PSU community. However I think my thoughts over the past week that the NCAA would stay in the shadows and accept any reasonable self sanctions by PSU is wrong for similar reasons.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I guess the answer to child abuse is to punish future students of Penn St! A funny world we live in today. Look Sandusky should be killed and those that covered up should pay a price. But where do you draw the line on how a business is punished? Did the business hurt those kids? And please don't say that the Univ is part of the abuse when the Truth is that Sandusky would of still had access to children and he used Penn St and I am willing to bet other businesses in the area to invite the children.

People making this "why punish the innocents?" argument must be paying attention to college sports for the first time.Virtually every punishment adopted by the NCAA harms innocents. That's how college sports work. Urban Meyer and the current Ohio State football players didn't take improper benefits and cover them up (as far as we know). Larry Fedora and the current UNC football players didn't take improper benefits and/or get too much assistance from tutors (as far as we know). Pete Carroll and the USC football players of the last couple years ... well they probably did cheat, but their cheating isn't what the NCAA caught and punished.If you're looking for a system where the wrongdoers and only the wrongdoers are punished, look to the criminal justice system, not the NCAA. That's not now the NCAA works. It's unfair; always has been, always will be. If you don't like rules and enforcement mechanisms that are blatantly unfair and essentially arbitrary, don't follow college sports. You're just asking for trouble. But if you choose to follow college sports, don't complain about it being arbitrary. There's many, many decades of precedent for this nonsense, you should have known what you were getting into.

My reply to this argument isn't great, but I think it's somewhat relevant. In almost all those other cases, someone up the chain was still around to be punished. Sure, Urban Meyer and the players didn't do anything, but the AD Gene Smith and the President Gordan Gee were around and should be responsible to a degree for the actions of the past. Same with UNC and USC, although at least USC fired their AD Mike Garrett. In this case, the AD and President are gone. And I don't believe there are very many BOT members that were on the board in 1998 and 2001. So really, almost the entire power structure responsible is gone, which is, to use Mr Emmert's favorite word, unprecedented.

I don't think the people who are complaining about "innocent people getting punished" are talking about administrators. They're talking about current players, staff and fans, who in virtually every case had nothing to do with whatever it is the NCAA is punishing.

 

[Rayderr]

So I guess the answer to child abuse is to punish future students of Penn St! A funny world we live in today. Look Sandusky should be killed and those that covered up should pay a price. But where do you draw the line on how a business is punished? Did the business hurt those kids? And please don't say that the Univ is part of the abuse when the Truth is that Sandusky would of still had access to children and he used Penn St and I am willing to bet other businesses in the area to invite the children.

People making this "why punish the innocents?" argument must be paying attention to college sports for the first time.Virtually every punishment adopted by the NCAA harms innocents. That's how college sports work. Urban Meyer and the current Ohio State football players didn't take improper benefits and cover them up (as far as we know). Larry Fedora and the current UNC football players didn't take improper benefits and/or get too much assistance from tutors (as far as we know). Pete Carroll and the USC football players of the last couple years ... well they probably did cheat, but their cheating isn't what the NCAA caught and punished.If you're looking for a system where the wrongdoers and only the wrongdoers are punished, look to the criminal justice system, not the NCAA. That's not now the NCAA works. It's unfair; always has been, always will be. If you don't like rules and enforcement mechanisms that are blatantly unfair and essentially arbitrary, don't follow college sports. You're just asking for trouble. But if you choose to follow college sports, don't complain about it being arbitrary. There's many, many decades of precedent for this nonsense, you should have known what you were getting into.

My reply to this argument isn't great, but I think it's somewhat relevant. In almost all those other cases, someone up the chain was still around to be punished. Sure, Urban Meyer and the players didn't do anything, but the AD Gene Smith and the President Gordan Gee were around and should be responsible to a degree for the actions of the past. Same with UNC and USC, although at least USC fired their AD Mike Garrett. In this case, the AD and President are gone. And I don't believe there are very many BOT members that were on the board in 1998 and 2001. So really, almost the entire power structure responsible is gone, which is, to use Mr Emmert's favorite word, unprecedented.

I don't think the people who are complaining about "innocent people getting punished" are talking about administrators. They're talking about current players, staff and fans, who in virtually every case had nothing to do with whatever it is the NCAA is punishing.

Players and staff can go to other schools. Who gives a #### about punishing the fans? Go pay attention to their basketball team or maybe find another school to root for.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So I guess the answer to child abuse is to punish future students of Penn St! A funny world we live in today. Look Sandusky should be killed and those that covered up should pay a price. But where do you draw the line on how a business is punished? Did the business hurt those kids? And please don't say that the Univ is part of the abuse when the Truth is that Sandusky would of still had access to children and he used Penn St and I am willing to bet other businesses in the area to invite the children.

People making this "why punish the innocents?" argument must be paying attention to college sports for the first time.Virtually every punishment adopted by the NCAA harms innocents. That's how college sports work. Urban Meyer and the current Ohio State football players didn't take improper benefits and cover them up (as far as we know). Larry Fedora and the current UNC football players didn't take improper benefits and/or get too much assistance from tutors (as far as we know). Pete Carroll and the USC football players of the last couple years ... well they probably did cheat, but their cheating isn't what the NCAA caught and punished.If you're looking for a system where the wrongdoers and only the wrongdoers are punished, look to the criminal justice system, not the NCAA. That's not now the NCAA works. It's unfair; always has been, always will be. If you don't like rules and enforcement mechanisms that are blatantly unfair and essentially arbitrary, don't follow college sports. You're just asking for trouble. But if you choose to follow college sports, don't complain about it being arbitrary. There's many, many decades of precedent for this nonsense, you should have known what you were getting into.

My reply to this argument isn't great, but I think it's somewhat relevant. In almost all those other cases, someone up the chain was still around to be punished. Sure, Urban Meyer and the players didn't do anything, but the AD Gene Smith and the President Gordan Gee were around and should be responsible to a degree for the actions of the past. Same with UNC and USC, although at least USC fired their AD Mike Garrett. In this case, the AD and President are gone. And I don't believe there are very many BOT members that were on the board in 1998 and 2001. So really, almost the entire power structure responsible is gone, which is, to use Mr Emmert's favorite word, unprecedented.

I don't think the people who are complaining about "innocent people getting punished" are talking about administrators. They're talking about current players, staff and fans, who in virtually every case had nothing to do with whatever it is the NCAA is punishing.

Players and staff can go to other schools. Who gives a #### about punishing the fans? Go pay attention to their basketball team or maybe find another school to root for.

Settle down there, Rayderr. I think you're actually agreeing with me- read the whole dialogue.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

 

[roadkill1292]

I think we should complain about the arbitrariness of the NCAA. Maybe not every day but at least once a week. I suggest Wednesdays.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

Undid the assumed goal, for at least one party for the cover up in 2001.

 

[beer 302]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

That's a shot at Paterno's quest and the associated "hero worship".

 

[Rayderr]

Removing past wins is always a lame punishment.

 

[BigJohn]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

That's a shot at Paterno's quest and the associated "hero worship".

Seriously, of all the aspects of this situation, you're worried about wins?

 

[BigJohn]

Removing past wins is always a lame punishment.

In and of itself, sure. But, when it's part of a punishment, I feel it's absolutely appropriate.

 

[Rayderr]

Removing past wins is always a lame punishment.

In and of itself, sure. But, when it's part of a punishment, I feel it's absolutely appropriate.

"Hey Bill! Remember that game we lost to Penn State?""Yeah. I threw 3 interceptions that game. Worst perfromance ever. Probably cost us a bowl slot.""Well, good news! We didn't lose that game!"Seriously, what changed? Nothing.

 

[BigJohn]

Removing past wins is always a lame punishment.

In and of itself, sure. But, when it's part of a punishment, I feel it's absolutely appropriate.

"Hey Bill! Remember that game we lost to Penn State?""Yeah. I threw 3 interceptions that game. Worst perfromance ever. Probably cost us a bowl slot.""Well, good news! We didn't lose that game!"Seriously, what changed? Nothing.

I agree with you.But, this is not about wins. It's about JoePa's legacy. They want to almost erase him from concious memory. I'm thinking they are succeeding at this point.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

That's a shot at Paterno's quest and the associated "hero worship".

Seriously, of all the aspects of this situation, you're worried about wins?

Because its dumb. You cannot erase what happened. Players won those games. And 1998 wasnt even a coverup. So if they were going to do something as illogical as altering history, it should be 2001. Other schools should be terrified with the imperical power the ncaa has now.

 

[GeauxTigers]

Removing past wins is always a lame punishment.

Not if the coach is the winningest in history. That is a huge slap in the face to Joe Pa and the entire Penn State family.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

...Other schools should be terrified with the imperical power the ncaa has now.

Other schools demanded that the NCAA exercise this power!

 

[roadkill1292]

...Other schools should be terrified with the imperical power the ncaa has now.

Other schools demanded that the NCAA exercise this power!

They may be sorry.

 

[TobiasFunke]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

That's a shot at Paterno's quest and the associated "hero worship".

Seriously, of all the aspects of this situation, you're worried about wins?

Because its dumb. You cannot erase what happened. Players won those games. And 1998 wasnt even a coverup. So if they were going to do something as illogical as altering history, it should be 2001. Other schools should be terrified with the imperical power the ncaa has now.

The school that taught you how to spell should have bigger concerns.(sorry, couldn't resist )

 

[Smack Tripper]

The whole may be greater than the sum of the parts here with these sanctions, I would still prefer to keep all of this and give them a year or two off, but I can't say this action is not without teeth.

And I'll go one further to those that think I have particular issue with PSU or Paterno, I personally think the vacating of wins is so silly and stupid and simply a function of not wanting to put his name on top of the list in the media guide, and its almost distasteful to me to put this in this action. For Emeret to act like this was not a personally regarded penalty is totally disingenuous. But I suppose it may be a function of the State of PA and the DA footdragging on the Sandusky indictment until after Joe Pa got the record.

But all that said, the guy will hold that record until someone wins 410 games.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

...Other schools should be terrified with the imperical power the ncaa has now.

Other schools demanded that the NCAA exercise this power!

They may be sorry.

I think they have had enough. Those that are suppose to be in charge of educational institutions want that job, and not the job of running football factories.

 

[Rayderr]

Any predictions on the Big 10 penalties? They have a press conference at 11am ET to announce theirs.

 

[Christo]

LOL, just got a call from my wife's cousins who are huge Clemson supporters and they finally get it. "Why the hell is the NCAA involved? This isn't their jurisdiction". "This is a huge power grab by the NCAA. What will happen when other football teams have criminal activity?" "Let the Dept of education or state of Pennsylvania deal with sanctions". Then one of them went on a rant about the NCAA saying that Dabo was talking locally about a group of teams breaking away from the NCAA and maybe Penn State should just start that now.

Good to see fans of other football factories see what the NCAA is trying to do here.

Do you really think the NCAA is stepping in because criminal activity took place? You don't see the problem that child rape is worth than stealing some electronics or something similar? You don't see the NCAA is stepping in because there were decades of coverup to a terrible crime involving the football program and football facilities and one motive of the coverup was to protect the football program and it's money?Stop trying to minimalize things and acting like the NCAA is being a big bully here. And then claiming other fans are unfairly treating PSU fans harshly. The NCAA wouldn't have to step in if someone at PSU had the decency to do it themselves! The NCAA should police these football factories more!

Expecting the NCAA to abide by its rules is not "minimizing things."

Is there anything in their rules that indicate they WON'T police this sort of conduct?

It doesn't work like that.

How DOES it work?

?

Seriously? This is a concept you are having difficulty with? An association is no different than a government. It is an organization formed by its members to serve its members. The members give it certain powers. These powers can be set forth in many types of agreements, e.g., constitution, by-laws, operating agreement. The organization has no more power than is set forth in the agreement. If the organization attempts to act in a manner that is not provided for in the agreement its actions are unconstitutional, beyond its powers, a breach, in bad faith, illegal--whatever you want to call it.

No, I'm having difficulty with your distinction. This is NOT government, nor is this a court of law. Its a charter organization and one which does not, in any meaningful way that I've seen, limit the discretionary judgement power of the governing body.

While civil and criminal complaints may be subject to established laws and precedence in regard to reaching a judgement, I don't see how there isn't enough grey area under the NCAA mission statement to justify jurisdiction here. Thats why I asked you if you were aware of any specific language limiting their powers. I can respect your attempt to define a distinction, but as at-will members of this organization, I don't see what leg they have to stand on, particularly when the mission statement, which has been posted more than once includes the following parameters by which to act in this case:

Mission Statement of NCAA*

Core Ideology:

The NCAA's core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization's reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.

Core Purpose:

Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

Core Values:

The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

· The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.

· The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.

· The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.

· The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

· An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.

· Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.

· Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

I will grant you its a wide swath, but I'm pretty sure if they anticipated this sort of situation, they would have put don't cover up child molestation in the NCAA by-laws. Since there is nothing prohibiting their sanctions, and there is a governing body of the NCAA made up of fellow universities, I don't see how they are violating their rules when none seem to exist.

If you can point me to some more concrete language, I'm willing to listen. As of now though, Penn State would seem to have problems with both integrity and their "sense of community. "

That's the entire point--no rule exists.

 

[Joe Summer]

How do you justify vacating 12 years of wins?

Because the coverup started in 1998.

 

[Smack Tripper]

That's the entire point--no rule exists.

How is precedent established? And is there a rule that says a rule can't be established. PSU preemptively agreed to abide by the ruling in any event, so I don't see what their recourse would be to appeal otherwise.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

For the record, we have no idea whether Bear Bryant did or did not cover up child abuse while coaching at Alabama.

 

[Rayderr]

Big 10 penalty.

The $13 million in Big Ten bowl revenue Penn State would be due in the next four years will be going to charity instead.The Big Ten Conference announced Monday the school would not receive its share of the conference bowl revenue in light of the football program’s heavy NCAA sanctions.The Nittany Lions are banned from postseason competition for four years, and that includes competition in the Big Ten Championship should Penn State win its division. Conference schools are due roughly $2 million per year.Earlier on Monday, the NCAA fined Penn State $60 million, placed the school on five years probation, cut scholarships from 25 to 15 and vacated all wins from 1998-2011.The bowl shares, like the fine money, will go toward charitable organizations focused on preventing child abuse.Combining the bowl share with the fine, Penn State has been penalized $73 million. According to the Central Penn Business Journal, that’s the amount of revenue the football program generated in 2010.

 

[roadkill1292]

...Other schools should be terrified with the imperical power the ncaa has now.

Other schools demanded that the NCAA exercise this power!

They may be sorry.

I think they have had enough. Those that are suppose to be in charge of educational institutions want that job, and not the job of running football factories.

Don't underestimate the desire to protect their own "football factory". The NCAA has some skin in that also.There has been a lot of talk about "football factories" because of this scandal. The NCAA and presidents would like that talk to go away.

Uh, I thought that was only me. I don't think it's usage is very widespread. But if I'm wrong and the idea is growing in the minds of more observers, then I suspect there will be little the NCAA and the presidents will be able to do to stifle the talk while keeping the money spigots open.

 

[Wadsworth]

For the record, we have no idea whether Bear Bryant did or did not cover up child abuse while coaching at Alabama.

Is it just me or does it seem like almost every argument you make is a theory that is impossible to prove or disprove? Joe was in denial, the NCAA has no legal authority even though PSU might not challenge it, Bear might have covered up a child predator... It is the sign of person holding onto an undependable position.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

By not giving Penn State the death penalty the NCAA in effect is supporting pedophila.

You can raped kids and cover it up, but as long as you make money for the NCAA then your program is safe.

The entire NCAA management needs to be cleared out.

PS: $60 million to PSU Football is chump change, they make that in a year.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

As a PA resident I am sickened that JoePa was allowed to wield the unchecked power he did over decades at PSU. Clearly he knew about Sandusky's operation and placed his own agenda before the good of all. Probably one of many things that JoePa was able to hide over the years. It's an embarrassment for the entire state of PA.

 

[biggamer3]

This is very funny

http://imgur.com/EQJUO

 

[Christo]

By not giving Penn State the death penalty the NCAA in effect is supporting pedophila.You can raped kids and cover it up, but as long as you make money for the NCAA then your program is safe.The entire NCAA management needs to be cleared out.PS: $60 million to PSU Football is chump change, they make that in a year.

 

[Joe Summer]

I'm not sure which thread we're using for the latest updates, but anyway....

Graham Spanier claims he never protected Sandusky

"As I have stated in the clearest possible terms, at no time during my presidency did anyone ever report to me that Jerry Sandusky was observed abusing a child or youth or engaged in a sexual act with a child or youth."

 

[Idiot Boxer]

For the record, we have no idea whether Bear Bryant did or did not cover up child abuse while coaching at Alabama.

Is it just me or does it seem like almost every argument you make is a theory that is impossible to prove or disprove? Joe was in denial, the NCAA has no legal authority even though PSU might not challenge it, Bear might have covered up a child predator... It is the sign of person holding onto an undependable position.

It's just you.