Jimmy Graham to Seattle! OFFICIAL (1 Viewer)

[menobrown]

All I can say is

All hail Schneider & Caroll.

As a Seahawk fan that's how you should feel. We can debate why the Saints made the trade and maybe they will hit gold with the pick, Unger and new money they'll have next season. But I don't think they got back nearly enough and still I don't think this will end up being as big a loss to the Saints as it's going to be a win for Seattle.

 

[psychobillies]

All I can say is

All hail Schneider & Caroll.

As a Seahawk fan that's how you should feel. We can debate why the Saints made the trade and maybe they will hit gold with the pick, Unger and new money they'll have next season. But I don't think they got back nearly enough and still I don't think this will end up being as big a loss to the Saints as it's going to be a win for Seattle.

You're probably right, but I'm sure the Saints talked to more than just Seattle. If it's such a hijacking by Seattle, how come no other teams offered more? If Unger is just a throw in guy who was about to be cut anyway, like some here suggest, surely they could have gotten a higher pick.

Got to be more to the story.

 

[menobrown]

All I can say is

All hail Schneider & Caroll.

As a Seahawk fan that's how you should feel. We can debate why the Saints made the trade and maybe they will hit gold with the pick, Unger and new money they'll have next season. But I don't think they got back nearly enough and still I don't think this will end up being as big a loss to the Saints as it's going to be a win for Seattle.

You're probably right, but I'm sure the Saints talked to more than just Seattle. If it's such a hijacking by Seattle, how come no other teams offered more? If Unger is just a throw in guy who was about to be cut anyway, like some here suggest, surely they could have gotten a higher pick.

Got to be more to the story.

I saw someone here suggest it but if everyone suggested it still does not make it true. No offense to anyone here and I know he's not perfect and gets some stuff wrong but if Rapaport says Unger was what got the talks going I tend to give him some benefit of the doubt.

As for why did other teams not pay more. We don't know what goes into all the negotiations but Seattle and Philly are both franchises absolutely unafraid to pull the trigger. Not every team has cap space and the value of high first round picks is enormous since you don't have to pay them much.

Again not disputing the Saints failed to get enough because I don't think they did. But if people think the Saints dumped Graham because something is wrong with him I think people are just way off base.

 

[cvnpoka]

I seriously wonder if [the Saints] think [Graham s] damaged goods. They kept a washed up Colston and then traded away Graham. Doesn't make sense to me unless they think his injury problems will continue.

There are a few things going on that have not been made totally public, and thus exist only in the realm of "rumor". On top of general injury concerns:

- It's rumored that the 2014 contract negotiations between the team and Graham got personal, especially between Payton and Graham.

- Graham was rumored to dog it during practices last season

- Graham was rumored to not be willing to play through injury last season (and part of 2013)

- Graham was rumored to be a divisive voice in the locker-room last season, purportedly stemming from bad feelings during the contract dispute

- Graham's play during the Pro Bowl to "test his shoulder" was rumored to have infuriated Sean Payton.

- It's rumored that while the Saints paid Graham what they had to pay him to keep him last season, he wasn't "budgeted" for that much money (were counting on TE-level franchise tag + maybe 15%) and so was something of a financial issue for the team's books per Mickey Loomis

...

Personally, I believe all of that. Others may feel free to differ.

.

not willing to play thru injury? he played every game the last 2 yrs. and that was with a bum shoulder or a bum foot.

 

[rdrouyn]

All I can say is

All hail Schneider & Caroll.

As a Seahawk fan that's how you should feel. We can debate why the Saints made the trade and maybe they will hit gold with the pick, Unger and new money they'll have next season. But I don't think they got back nearly enough and still I don't think this will end up being as big a loss to the Saints as it's going to be a win for Seattle.

You're probably right, but I'm sure the Saints talked to more than just Seattle. If it's such a hijacking by Seattle, how come no other teams offered more? If Unger is just a throw in guy who was about to be cut anyway, like some here suggest, surely they could have gotten a higher pick.

Got to be more to the story.

Unger is still one of the best centers in football, especially in run blocking, he's no scrub. The running numbers without vs. with him are noticeable. Anyone saying he was going to get cut has no idea what they are taking about.

Still a highjacking because of positional value.

The saints might not want to admit it, but they were trying to dump salary.

 

[Ernol]

Are some of you saying the Saints traded Graham because they felt his skills were diminishing and/or they don't think he will be anywhere near as good? Interesting.

They didn't exactly "give" him away, so it's not like they need to think he is about to be washed up to accept a decent C and a 1st round pick for him.

I am not sure of the Saints plan, but if for some reason they did decide to deal Brees (which I cant see happening), then it would make sense to deal other players first, so as to not devalue them. Brees value would not go down even if they told they league they wanted to deal him and they were rebuilding, and HAD to deal him no matter what. Teams would still line up for him.

My thought is not that his skills are diminishing but that they are concerned about his ability to stay healthy.The Seahawks are SB favorites and late 1st's are about 50/50 in getting a good player. Unger is a good center but not close in impact to Graham.

He still played fairly well with a busted up shoulder.

he's been one of the top 2 TEs in the league for a few years, even when banged up.

Why would they be worried about that? Not saying you are wrong, but if they really do worry about that, why?

I think there is far more to this deal than just how the SAints feel about Graham as a player moving forward, regarding his health and/or impact or whatever.

I have no idea but trading a player as good as Graham for pretty much peanuts makes no sense. If I try to picture the Chargers trading Antonio Gates at age 29 for what the Saints got it blows my mind. Don't get it at all unless there are injury questions or Graham is a locker room cancer.

I disagree with the bolded. A 1st round pick for a playmaker getting paid $9 Million per year is pretty hefty compensation imo. Only the best of the best deserves that kind of price considering that they are under contract at market value. It would be different if Graham were getting paid under market value, but he's not. Seattle gets a playmaker, but they are also paying a steep market salary for him.

For example, Seattle could have saved a 1st round pick by paying Julius Thomas slightly more than what they will be paying Graham (albeit on a greater guaranteed amount over time). Instead, by inference, it appears that they viewed Graham as being at least a 1st round pick better than Thomas.

Another way to look at it is that Seattle thinks that Graham is worth $9 Million a year PLUS a 1st round pick. That seems about right to me and says a lot about how much Seattle likes Graham. In any case, Saints did not give up Graham for peanuts.

 

[Ernol]

All I can say is

All hail Schneider & Caroll.

As a Seahawk fan that's how you should feel. We can debate why the Saints made the trade and maybe they will hit gold with the pick, Unger and new money they'll have next season. But I don't think they got back nearly enough and still I don't think this will end up being as big a loss to the Saints as it's going to be a win for Seattle.

You're probably right, but I'm sure the Saints talked to more than just Seattle. If it's such a hijacking by Seattle, how come no other teams offered more? If Unger is just a throw in guy who was about to be cut anyway, like some here suggest, surely they could have gotten a higher pick.

Got to be more to the story.

Unger is still one of the best centers in football, especially in run blocking, he's no scrub. The running numbers without vs. with him are noticeable. Anyone saying he was going to get cut has no idea what they are taking about.

Still a highjacking because of positional value.

The saints might not want to admit it, but they were trying to dump salary.

Its not just some on this board indicating this. John Clayton for example stated the following:

"Max Unger was probably going to be a cap casualty, believe it or not. If you're bringing in anybody that's going to be a $6 million-plus player, one has to go, and Unger is one of the highest-paid centers, one of the best centers in the league ... Everybody wants to sign $6 million players. They've got nine. If you want to bring one in – and they wanted to go heavy on the tight end position and they wanted to go big – one has to go."

 

[ghostguy123]

Was he going to be cut if they didn't trade for Graham?

 

[Sabertooth]

Last year Seahawks fans were saying that Unger was the best center in football and now he's a throw in guy?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

All I can say is

All hail Schneider & Caroll.

As a Seahawk fan that's how you should feel. We can debate why the Saints made the trade and maybe they will hit gold with the pick, Unger and new money they'll have next season. But I don't think they got back nearly enough and still I don't think this will end up being as big a loss to the Saints as it's going to be a win for Seattle.

You're probably right, but I'm sure the Saints talked to more than just Seattle. If it's such a hijacking by Seattle, how come no other teams offered more? If Unger is just a throw in guy who was about to be cut anyway, like some here suggest, surely they could have gotten a higher pick.

Got to be more to the story.

Unger is still one of the best centers in football, especially in run blocking, he's no scrub. The running numbers without vs. with him are noticeable. Anyone saying he was going to get cut has no idea what they are taking about.

Still a highjacking because of positional value.

The saints might not want to admit it, but they were trying to dump salary.

Its not just some on this board indicating this. John Clayton for example stated the following:

"Max Unger was probably going to be a cap casualty, believe it or not. If you're bringing in anybody that's going to be a $6 million-plus player, one has to go, and Unger is one of the highest-paid centers, one of the best centers in the league ... Everybody wants to sign $6 million players. They've got nine. If you want to bring one in – and they wanted to go heavy on the tight end position and they wanted to go big – one has to go."

He has major value to the Saints, they were looking at a converted guard at center (which they back off doing last year when they signed Goodwyn) and they have considered the position (and the middle line in general) a priority since day 1 when Payton first came in and they traded for Jeff Faine. They were rumored to have considered using a 1st round pick last year and they were probably facing it this year. They really almost get two firsts with this pick because now it frees up their other one. Not supporting the trade here, I'm just saying some players have more value to some teams than other teams. While it's always fascinating to me how these rumors spring up after players exit (see the TP in NO for the same thing on Graham), if Seattle was going to cut Unger it doesn't really matter if it allows the Saints to lock him in now.

 

[Doug B]

I seriously wonder if [the Saints] think [Graham s] damaged goods. They kept a washed up Colston and then traded away Graham. Doesn't make sense to me unless they think his injury problems will continue.

There are a few things going on that have not been made totally public, and thus exist only in the realm of "rumor". On top of general injury concerns:

- It's rumored that the 2014 contract negotiations between the team and Graham got personal, especially between Payton and Graham.

- Graham was rumored to dog it during practices last season

- Graham was rumored to not be willing to play through injury last season (and part of 2013)

- Graham was rumored to be a divisive voice in the locker-room last season, purportedly stemming from bad feelings during the contract dispute

- Graham's play during the Pro Bowl to "test his shoulder" was rumored to have infuriated Sean Payton.

- It's rumored that while the Saints paid Graham what they had to pay him to keep him last season, he wasn't "budgeted" for that much money (were counting on TE-level franchise tag + maybe 15%) and so was something of a financial issue for the team's books per Mickey Loomis

...

Personally, I believe all of that. Others may feel free to differ.

.

not willing to play thru injury? he played every game the last 2 yrs. and that was with a bum shoulder or a bum foot.

Speculating on the rumor's basis:

MIght have something to do with pulling himself out of drives/plays or something like that. Or begging off of the more physical aspects of the position (e.g. happy to go out on pass routes, but wanting to be subbed out on running downs). There were some games where he played few snaps (no, don't have snap-count stats in front of me).

 

[Ernol]

Was he going to be cut if they didn't trade for Graham?

From what I have read, I believe the talk about Unger being on the bubble originated from Seattle heavily pursuing a big time tight end (not necessarily Graham himself). First it was Julius Thomas, then it would be Cameron. If they had won the Julius Thomas sweepstakes, and from the sounds of things, they were very close and did want him badly, they would likely be looking to cut Unger.

In other words, they planned all along to grab a big time tight end and the plan to clear cap room to do that included possibly cutting Unger.

In any case, the Saints saw value in Unger (how much given his cap hit and injury history is not clear), and that value + a first rounder was enough to sway them to trade Graham.

 

[menobrown]

Was he going to be cut if they didn't trade for Graham?

From what I have read, I believe the talk about Unger being on the bubble originated from Seattle heavily pursuing a big time tight end (not necessarily Graham himself). First it was Julius Thomas, then it would be Cameron. If they had won the Julius Thomas sweepstakes, and from the sounds of things, they were very close and did want him badly, they would likely be looking to cut Unger.

In other words, they planned all along to grab a big time tight end and the plan to clear cap room to do that included possibly cutting Unger.

In any case, the Saints saw value in Unger (how much given his cap hit and injury history is not clear), and that value + a first rounder was enough to sway them to trade Graham.

I don't think they ever would have cut Unger, even if they needed to clear cap room. No need to because he had trade value. May not have got more than a mid round pick but he had value. No guarantees on his contract, not a lot in the draft at Center or FA, we just saw Rodney Hudson sign a $44 million dollar deal. He had trade value which is why I believe the Saints were inquiring about him as Rapaport stated.

 

[massraider]

Max Unger is 28 and has 4.5 mill base salaries this year and next. He was not a potential cap casualty, and certainly not for a playoff team with plenty of room.

You want to see what a potential salary cap casualty looks like? Check out the guards flanking him in New Orleans.

Great move for the Seahawks, they can afford Jimmy while Russell and Wagner are bargains--which they could easily be in the first year or so of long term deals. By the time their cap gets tight, they will probably cut Jimmy with no dead money.

I think it was a good trade haul for New Orleans, especially if his injuries keep flaring up. However, I think they have no idea what they are doing money-wise, and they are financially strapped, wasting the final years of Brees' career. The bad cap management is even more glaring, because almost everyone else has gotten a lot smarter with the cap. Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

 

[Doug B]

Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

Top guards are needed in front of Brees, as he is both short and relatively immobile. Now, that doesn't preclude one of Grubbs or J Evans from either being cut or re-structured. A lot of people seem to think the Saints' guards were hampered by having to constantly help the centers last season, ans that UNger's presence makes Evans/Grubbs better, too. We'll see if that pans out, but that's the thinking.

As for J Byrd ... I am hoping the book is not written on him yet. He basically lost most of 2014 to injury (bad back kept him out of camp, then missed 3/4 or the season). By the start of the 2014 season, Byrd had very few practice reps, had not yet internalized Rob Ryan's defense, and didn't always know his assignements. So, 2015 will tell the tale, there.

 

[massraider]

Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

Top guards are needed in front of Brees, as he is both short and relatively immobile. Now, that doesn't preclude one of Grubbs or J Evans from either being cut or re-structured. A lot of people seem to think the Saints' guards were hampered by having to constantly help the centers last season, ans that UNger's presence makes Evans/Grubbs better, too. We'll see if that pans out, but that's the thinking.

As for J Byrd ... I am hoping the book is not written on him yet. He basically lost most of 2014 to injury (bad back kept him out of camp, then missed 3/4 or the season). By the start of the 2014 season, Byrd had very few practice reps, had not yet internalized Rob Ryan's defense, and didn't always know his assignements. So, 2015 will tell the tale, there.

They've already restructured his deal, kicking that can down the road.

My main thought on the Saints cap situation is that with Brees' big number, which can't be helped, you have to have bargains at other places. Guard and safety are, frankly, two spots team can get good production from, cheaply. So they gonna try and get good cheap production from other spots, like D-line and CB. Tougher to find bargains there.

I think Unger will definitely improve the middle of the line. And really, for the investment, the middle of that line better be the best in the league.

 

[Doug B]

Guard and safety are, frankly, two spots team can get good production from, cheaply.

That's the conventiona wisdom. But I'll argue the Saints case here: they weren't merely trying to buy a starting safety when they signed Byrd. Not even necessarily a top starting safety. The commodity the Saints were trying to buy, specifically, were turnovers.

So, with that mindset, just a getting a "solid" guy was't going to cut it -- it had to be a guy that "created turnovers". The Saints felt that was worth the home-run swing.

The one thing about the Byrd deal I do wonder, though, is whether or not the Bills hoodwinked the Saints regarding Byrd's injured back. And whether or not the Saints' medical staff missed it during their physical. But I don't know.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Max Unger is 28 and has 4.5 mill base salaries this year and next. He was not a potential cap casualty, and certainly not for a playoff team with plenty of room.

You want to see what a potential salary cap casualty looks like? Check out the guards flanking him in New Orleans.

Great move for the Seahawks, they can afford Jimmy while Russell and Wagner are bargains--which they could easily be in the first year or so of long term deals. By the time their cap gets tight, they will probably cut Jimmy with no dead money.

I think it was a good trade haul for New Orleans, especially if his injuries keep flaring up. However, I think they have no idea what they are doing money-wise, and they are financially strapped, wasting the final years of Brees' career. The bad cap management is even more glaring, because almost everyone else has gotten a lot smarter with the cap. Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

About the guards, if you're going to have a winning team in the NFL you're going to spend money somewhere, and having seen some bad football including with the Saints in the past I love the emphasis on the middle line. If they want to dedicate their dollars to that I'm fine. I'm just worried about instability generally. But the commitment to Unger seems like a recommitment to that concept they started with not an abandonment of it. So I very much like that aspect. - ETA - However the trade of Grubbs totally rejects that (color me worried).

My main concern is again the instability and secondly ensuring Brees has targets. I seriously hope they aren't leaving him empty handed but the noises about chasing Spiller and drafting a WR in the 1st have me encouraged, I hope it goes that way.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Guard and safety are, frankly, two spots team can get good production from, cheaply.

That's the conventiona wisdom. But I'll argue the Saints case here: they weren't merely trying to buy a starting safety when they signed Byrd. Not even necessarily a top starting safety. The commodity the Saints were trying to buy, specifically, were turnovers.

So, with that mindset, just a getting a "solid" guy was't going to cut it -- it had to be a guy that "created turnovers". The Saints felt that was worth the home-run swing.

The one thing about the Byrd deal I do wonder, though, is whether or not the Bills hoodwinked the Saints regarding Byrd's injured back. And whether or not the Saints' medical staff missed it during their physical. But I don't know.

Well things looked really promising last spring, didn't they? Top 5/8 defense with adding a top flight safety, it sure looked good. But someone at the top forget this team has always gone through the offense, this new emphasizing of the defense didn't make sense if it was at the expense of the offense (Sproles, which Payton clearly said was the tradeoff, he bought into the Seahawks' success and that was allegedly the way of the future). They seem to be intent on continuing to do it, like they're putting their weight behind Ryan, which to me is nuts.

 

[Doug B]

Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

From your lips to Mickey Loomis's ears (Ben Grubbs traded ti Chiefs for a 5th a few minutes ago).

 

[massraider]

Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

From your lips to Mickey Loomis's ears (Ben Grubbs traded ti Chiefs for a 5th a few minutes ago).

Bout time he started listening to me!

 

[Doug B]

Bout time he started listening to me!

Someone at Saintsreport estimated that the Saints have ~$35 million in available cap space for 2016 (not counting whatever the leaguewide salary cap increase is next offseason). Now, I don't know how I'd go about checking that. But it does represent a major shift in the team's financial philosophy.

 

[12punch]

Bout time he started listening to me!

Someone at Saintsreport estimated that the Saints have ~$35 million in available cap space for 2016 (not counting whatever the leaguewide salary cap increase is next offseason). Now, I don't know how I'd go about checking that. But it does represent a major shift in the team's financial philosophy.

this is 2016, but you know that's like forecasting the weather a month ahead

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Having the highest paid guards in the league, and Jairus Byrd's contract, was that smart??

From your lips to Mickey Loomis's ears (Ben Grubbs traded ti Chiefs for a 5th a few minutes ago).

Sure that's great. Who's guard now? Another tradee?

 

[Doug B]

Sure that's great. Who's guard now? Another tradee?

Not a believer in Tim Lelito, eh?

NFL teams fill holes all the time. Sometimes from unexpected places. Were we all that high on Terron Armstead going into 2013?

 

[cacksman]

Last year Seahawks fans were saying that Unger was the best center in football and now he's a throw in guy?

He can't be counted on to play in Seattle's bruising, run oriented system for 16 games a year anymore. It does no one any good, when he gets hurt week 2 and forces a slew of backups to try and fill in for half the season. He's a great player when healthy, but he can't be counted on to actually be healthy.

Seattle is also undefeated in the last 8 games that he missed. I'd say that has something to do with it as well.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Sure that's great. Who's guard now? Another tradee?

Not a believer in Tim Lelito, eh?

NFL teams fill holes all the time. Sometimes from unexpected places. Were we all that high on Terron Armstead going into 2013?

If they have faith in him and that's what this is about then great, they made De La Puente work, dug up Evans, etc. If it works it works but last year they went and resigned Goodwyn instead of putting Lelito at center. De la Puente was another C/G hybrid though.

 

[Doug B]

this is 2016, but you know that's like forecasting the weather a month ahead

I think I see how the SR.com guy estimated that $35 million. 2015's contracts ($145 M) - 2016 ($115 M) , and add $5 million for the general 2016 cap increase.

 

[12punch]

this is 2016, but you know that's like forecasting the weather a month ahead

I think I see how the SR.com guy estimated that $35 million. 2015's contracts ($145 M) - 2016 ($115 M) , and add $5 million for the general 2016 cap increase.

yeah, but that's only 32 contracts, and I have no idea when it was last updated, as you guys seem to be making a move every 5 min.

actually, looking at it, I think it might be pretty well up to date.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Saints coach Sean Payton gushed over rising third-year TE Josh Hill at his season-ending press conference, calling Hill "exactly what we're looking for."

 

[ldizzle]

Saints coach Sean Payton gushed over rising third-year TE Josh Hill at his season-ending press conference, calling Hill "exactly what we're looking for."

their combines are very close. Hill was good when given the opportunity. Dont get me wrong im not saying hes graham but i feel like he will be very serviceable next year

 

[cstu]

Saints coach Sean Payton gushed over rising third-year TE Josh Hill at his season-ending press conference, calling Hill "exactly what we're looking for."

their combines are very close. Hill was good when given the opportunity. Dont get me wrong im not saying hes graham but i feel like he will be very serviceable next year

Jimmy Graham is a freak...Hill is not close. However, he is very similar to Ertz (both are from Pro Days except where noted):

Hill: Dates: 03/18/13

Height: 6050

Weight: 246

40 Yrd Dash: 4.66

20 Yrd Dash: 2.65

10 Yrd Dash: 1.64

225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20

Vertical Jump: 36 1/2

Broad Jump: 10'07"

20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.19

3-Cone Drill: 7.00

Ertz: Dates: 03/21/13

Height: 6050

Weight: 249

40 Yrd Dash: 4.67

20 Yrd Dash: 2.74

10 Yrd Dash: 1.64

225 Lb. Bench Reps: 24 (combine)

Vertical Jump: 35 1/2

Broad Jump: 09'06"

20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.47 (combine)

3-Cone Drill: 7.08 (combine)

 

[cstu]

2013 Scouting Report:

Josh Hill

School: Idaho State

Position: TE

Bio: Two-year starter awarded all-Conference honors since his junior season and named to several all-America teams last year. Senior totals included 70 receptions/630 yards/5 TDs after 48/407/1 the prior year.

Positive: Athletic, pass-catching tight end coming off a career year. Quickly releases off the line of scrimmage, stays low exiting breaks, and positions himself to make receptions. Immediately gets to top speed, displays the ability to get into the secondary, and shows natural receiving skills. Extends his hands and makes the reception away from his frame. Stays square as a blocker and works to keep defenders away.

Negative: Possesses average blocking strength. Has a thin build and struggles in battles.

Analysis: Hill is an athletic prospect with the size/speed numbers teams want for a move tight end. He's displayed a developing game, comes with upside, and is a practice-squad player with a future at the next level.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

@SeaTimesSports: The Jimmy Graham effect: How will defenses cope? @JaysonJenks examines: http://t.co/Tsl6ds7Jot