Joe Rogan Endorsement of Bernie Sanders - A Negative? (1 Viewer)

[IvanKaramazov]

David Frum's latest column is about how Bernie can't win. It's obviously wrong if we take "can't" literally. But I do think that Bernie would probably be an underdog to Trump whereas Biden would be the favorite.

I agree.  Frum is 100% right that Sanders has not been at all vetted.  If he wins the nomination, he'll be a member of the Politburo by August.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

For those who are inclined to dismiss David Frum, here's Jonathan Chait making a similar argument.  

Compounding those vulnerabilities is a long history of radical associations. Sanders campaigned for the Socialist Workers’ Party and praised communist regimes. Obviously, Republicans call every Democratic nominee a “socialist.” But it’s one thing to have the label thrown at you by the opposition, another for it to be embraced willingly, and yet another thing altogether to have a web of creepy associations that make it child’s play for the opposition to paint your program as radical and dangerous. Viewing these attacks in isolation, and asking whether voters will care about Bernie’s views on the Cold War, misses the way they will be used as a stand-in to discredit his entire worldview. Nobody “cared” how Michael Dukakis looked in a tank, and probably not many voters cared about Mitt Romney’s dismissive remarks about the 47 percent, but both reinforced larger attack narratives. Vintage video of Bernie palling around with Soviet communists will make for an almost insultingly easy way for Republicans to communicate the idea that his plans to expand government are radical.

Sanders has never faced an electorate where these vulnerabilities could be used against him. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

He does a couple of bits at the end of his "Trigered' special on Netflix about the Kardashians and Katalin/Bruce and Kanye that comes off as pretty transphobic, for sure.  

Crazy that a guy can have a breakthrough experience on DMT and encounter otherworldly beings in another dimension and not be able to accept that someone can be a different gender inside than what their chromosomes manifest physically.  

I mean, you can say it's just jokes, but when he does the Bill Hicks/Kinnison thing where he gets all worked up and screams at the top of his lungs about it, it's heartfelt. 

It could be one of those things where we can't consume every minute of what these people say, and shouldn't be expected to.  I've seen that, but I remember nothing from it.  

What I have picked up on his pods and interviews is that he rails against a couple concepts - the main one being someone who was biologically a man for most of their life, transitioned, and now is trying to fight in women's competitions.  I think he brings up good points about why that isn't safe and shouldn't be allowed.   The other I have heard him say about Katlin is that 1.  it's silly to get deplatformed for calling her Bruce, especially seeing what other people say and don't get deplatformed, and 2.  that it was kinda silly that somebody who was a woman for a short time gets "woman of the year" and he jokes that women should be annoyed with that.  

None of that indicates that he can't accept the bolded, and I have heard him address that specifically multiple times.   IMO that is just weird to call this transphobic, and is similar to how I feel Harris is wrongly labeled Islamaphobic for bringing up his points and concerns.   

 

[Dickies]

2004: Centrist John Kerry LOSES to a wildly unpopular incumbent.

2008: Barack Obama runs progressive campaign and WINS decisively.

2016: Centrist Hillary Clinton incomprehensibly LOSES to you know who.

2020: "...Bernie would probably be an underdog to Trump whereas Biden would be the favorite."

The Dema win if young people get out to vote. Bernie and Pete seems like the best chance to energize the youth.  Biden even puts himself to sleep

 

[BassNBrew]

Just listening to the interview with the gay power lifter.  Is it OK to joke about gay sex if the 300 pounder across from you who has gay sex laughs at it?

 

[wikkidpissah]

For those who are inclined to dismiss David Frum, here's Jonathan Chait making a similar argument.  

this was America's picture of him less than 5 years ago. he's earned his way out from under a lot of it but there's a reason this ol' Commie has never supported the major-party candidate with views closest to his own.

 

[ren hoek]

Where are you getting this from?  I feel like he very much has addressed those points in various interviews and on his podcast.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7eVvph69Y

He lays out his views pretty clearly.  That there is a "war" of ideas to be won.  That we need to empower 'moderate' Muslims against bad Muslims.  He lays out a few examples of 'moderate' Muslims, one of which was Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  Looking at her timeline, she bashes 'the left', is very pro-Israel, endorses Dalia al-Aqidi- another rightwing, pro-Israel Muslim.  Maher himself is fanatical in his Islamophobia.  

I went down the Sam Harris rabbithole for a bit yesterday.  In this talk, he displays a pretty shallow understanding of the conflict.  He does say that he doesn't believe Israel should exist as a Jewish state, which is consistent with his atheism, and is lightly critical of Israel's crimes.  Then he repeats the "human shields" talking point.  He ignores the military disparity between Israel and the Palestinian territories, simply stating that Palestinians are 'trying to kill everyone' while Israelis exercise extreme restraint.  He ignores the fact that there are vibrant Christian communities that live in Palestine, and that the killing is vastly more heavyhanded on the Israeli side than Palestinian, using state of the art technology against people relegated to throwing rocks. 

He barely acknowledges that one side is a colonial occupier, continuing to expand its illegal settlements, herding what he calls "jihadists" out of their homes like a bunch of cattle.  The other is a displaced population that has had its land/resources stolen from it.  And yet it is the oppressed side- with zero power, barely any access to drinking water, 4 hours of electricity per day in Gaza when the Israelis are feeling generous, whose children are jailed in greater proportion than the South African apartheid regime before it- that doesn't want to live in peace.  He closes with this:

This is the great story of our time, for the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we're going to be confronted by people who don't want to live peacefully in a secular pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to paradise, and they're willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way.  The truth is, we are all living in Israel.  It's just that some of us haven't realized it yet.

Again, the WoT ideology hinges in large part on the belief that the Judeochristian world is morally and culturally superior to Islam.  They "want to destroy the West," not because we've bombed the #### out of them with our good Christian bombs, but because of their religious fanaticism.  I don't think people resort to suicide bombing because of words on a piece of paper- I think they resort to it because everything else has been taken from them.  I think his views on Islam are reactionary at best.  He's obviously a very bright, incredibly well-spoken figure.  But I don't think neoconservatives like Bari Weiss would be latching onto him if he weren't a reliable conduit for their brand.  

 

[rockaction]

David Frum's latest column is about how Bernie can't win. It's obviously wrong if we take "can't" literally. But I do think that Bernie would probably be an underdog to Trump whereas Biden would be the favorite.

The closing of that article sounds like Frum is discussing a classic case of the haves and the have-nots, expressing a tim-like concern that populism is on the rise -- the question is who harnesses it at the federal political level for the executive branch. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Thanks @Maurile Tremblay  It's a fascinating question isn't it?

I don't know enough about things to assume if what you said above would be the case, but let's assume it would be.

It really pushes the issue as to what is the real question and goal?

If electing the best president among the Democrats is the goal, would Sanders be a better president than Biden or Warren or Buttigieg or someone else?

vs.

If defeating Trump is the goal, would Sanders or Biden have a better chance?

The fact everyone is ignoring is that Biden, Warren, the Clintons, Obama, Moveon.org, the DNC and the interests they all represent would 100% prefer Trump over Sanders as president.  It has nothing to do with the best president or defeating Trump.  

 

[Encumbrance]

The fact everyone is ignoring is that Biden, Warren, the Clintons, Obama, Moveon.org, the DNC and the interests they all represent would 100% prefer Trump over Sanders as president.  It has nothing to do with the best president or defeating Trump.  

Wow. I don't think people or organizations are quite that cynical, though I'm often colored surprised by the level of depravity politicians and the organizations that elevate/decide/promote them. I think they really want to defeat Trump, and if that means Sanders, then Sanders it is. 

 

[ShamrockPride]

Wow. I don't think people or organizations are quite that cynical, though I'm often colored surprised by the level of depravity politicians and the organizations that elevate/decide/promote them. I think they really want to defeat Trump, and if that means Sanders, then Sanders it is. 

You're serious? How is it not slap you in your face obvious at this point?

Do you read what all the "lefties" have been posting here at all the past 3+ years? Even they say Trump has done nothing to drain the swamp. He hasn't. He's just as corrupt as any other modern day politician (he's just worse at hiding it). He's 100% part of the same exact system everyone high up in DC is familiar with, and he is making the people who make the decisions (the corporations and Wall Street elites) richer than ever. They ####ing LOVE Trump. Don't fall for this charade.

 

[Encumbrance]

You're serious? How is it not slap you in your face obvious at this point?

Do you read what all the "lefties" have been posting here at all the past 3+ years? Even they say Trump has done nothing to drain the swamp. He hasn't. He's just as corrupt as any other modern day politician (he's just worse at hiding it). He's 100% part of the same exact system everyone high up in DC is familiar with, and he is making the people who make the decisions (the corporations and Wall Street elites) richer than ever. They ####ing LOVE Trump. Don't fall for this charade.

I'm certainly not saying that Democrats don't have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. I just think that the dislike of Trump grinds their gears enough to support a Sanders presidency. But I take your point: We used to have a saying among a certain coterie of us that you could never be cynical enough about a politician's aims and goals. I subscribed to the notion back then; perhaps I need to rethink it. But it leaves open the question: What about Sanders's baggage? Is he really the democratic socialist he claims to be or is he using this as his own power game?

 

[wikkidpissah]

The penultimate point to be made against Sanders - that, if the GOP put up a blockade against Obama, just imagine how they would oppose President Bern - has been shoved to the wayside by the McConnell Senate. How can a deliberative body get more obstructive than promising God to tell the truth while promising their constituents to lie?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Wow. I don't think people or organizations are quite that cynical, though I'm often colored surprised by the level of depravity politicians and the organizations that elevate/decide/promote them. I think they really want to defeat Trump, and if that means Sanders, then Sanders it is. 

I don't really view it as cynicism at all.  Its just the way things are and always have been. I visualize it as a football field, with one goal line being the far left and the other being the far right.  Trump, Biden, Obama, the Clintons, the Bushs, McConnel, Pelosi, Schumur, Gingrich, Kerry, etc. - they and the media would have us all believe these folks are separated into their tribes on either end of the spectrum, but that's obviously false.  They are all gathered in the circle at mid-field having cocktails together.  None of these actors are significantly left or right of each other.  Ronald Regan's ghost is also there on the 50.  Hannity, Tucker, Shepard, Maddow, Scarborough are hosting the party, and having the time of their lives.  The impeachment circus is the best thing that's happened to them in years.  The bankers, insurance execs, oil/gas and industrialists are up in the owners' boxes smiling at their loyal soldiers below and planning the next war.  Bernie is on the 20 yard line by himself and no one really cares, because they know he'll be easily marginalized if he ever gets close.  Tulsi's not in the arena at all, she's next door playing a different game that no one is watching.

 

[Encumbrance]

I'm not sure I disagree with the above when put that way, but we might see something different if Sanders wins the nomination and Trump keeps being Trump. 

 

[HellToupee]

Rogan is trending on twitter over this 

ROGAN: This is the real issue with the Democratic Party. They’ve essentially made us all morons with this Joe Biden thing.

WEINSTEIN: Can you imagine?

ROGAN: I can’t vote for that guy.

WEINSTEIN: I can’t vote for him, I can’t vote for Trump.

ROGAN: I’d rather vote for Trump than [Biden]. I don’t think he can handle anything. You’re relying entirely on his cabinet. If you want to talk about an individual leader who can communicate, he can’t do that. And we don’t know what the #### he’ll be like after a year in office. The pressure of being President of the United States is something than no one has ever prepared for. The only one who seems to be fine with it is Trump, oddly enough. He doesn’t seem to be aging at all or in any sort of decline. Obama, almost immediately, started looking older. George W. [Bush], almost immediately, started looking older.

 

[Apple Jack]

Rogan is trending on twitter over this 

ROGAN: This is the real issue with the Democratic Party. They’ve essentially made us all morons with this Joe Biden thing.

WEINSTEIN: Can you imagine?

ROGAN: I can’t vote for that guy.

WEINSTEIN: I can’t vote for him, I can’t vote for Trump.

ROGAN: I’d rather vote for Trump than [Biden]. I don’t think he can handle anything. You’re relying entirely on his cabinet. If you want to talk about an individual leader who can communicate, he can’t do that. And we don’t know what the #### he’ll be like after a year in office. The pressure of being President of the United States is something than no one has ever prepared for. The only one who seems to be fine with it is Trump, oddly enough. He doesn’t seem to be aging at all or in any sort of decline. Obama, almost immediately, started looking older. George W. [Bush], almost immediately, started looking older.

Rogan sounds inconceivably dumb here. The reason people age? They actually do the job.

 

[Encumbrance]

I think relying on hair color as evidence of people being unfit for a job is pretty ironic when it comes to being fit for comment. 

 

[Nipsey]

Still stunning that smart people on the left thought nominating this guy was the sharp play. Literally every other serious dem candidate was a slam dunk.

 

[KiddLattimer]

Bernie does better with independent voters

 

[ShamrockPride]

Still stunning that smart people on the left thought nominating this guy was the sharp play. Literally every other serious dem candidate was a slam dunk.

Any other candidate could have an intelligible conversation without stammering in his/her words and thoughts after two sentences. Amazing display of ineptitude on the part of the DNC.

 

[ren hoek]

The more I think about it though, the more I think this is largely Sanders' fault.  The biggest question on people's minds, the biggest concern far and away in poll after poll, is 'can they beat Trump'.  Instead of pointing out Biden's liabilities and explaining how he's the WORST candidate to run against Trump, he affirmed the establishment narrative that Biden can beat Trump, and that he would endorse him and support his campaign!  He also had some establishment-friendly rhetoric on getting Trump out, Russia, Impeachment etc. that could have functioned as a turnoff in purple states.  

No, the biggest threat to democracy is not Donald Trump.  It's the systemic rot of a two-party warfare state that does nothing but advance Trump's agenda.  

He should have said "No, I don't think Joe Biden can beat Trump.  I think Biden will lose to Trump.  He can barely complete a sentence.  He's a corrupt, lifetime insider from the establishment.  His legacy is Donald Trump.  No, I will NOT endorse Joe Biden, because his ideas are diametrically opposed to mine.  Nominating Biden gives tons of ammunition to the GOP.  He offers nothing to progressives" etc.

Sanders was worried about looking divisive?  Who cares!  They were going to blame him for dividing the party anyway.  Sanders was worried he'll get blamed for Biden losing to Trump?  Who cares!  They were going to do that again anyway.  He decided to play nice guy softball with a party establishment that wants to destroy him, and did.  He also threw Zephyr Teachout under the bus for publishing a piece on Joe Biden that correctly called out his corruption.  

Sanders didn't want to offend his """friend""", and chose to gaslight voters by acting like Biden is a "decent guy" who could beat Trump.  As a result, millions of people will continue to suffer under a system that Bernie Sanders is friends with.  He should just get out of the way and endorse the establishment again since that's all he's good for. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

No, the biggest threat to democracy is not Donald Trump.  It's the systemic rot of a two-party warfare state that does nothing but advance Trump's agenda.  

Let’s say I agree with this. What is the solution? Sanders has already proved - and to some people this is a positive - that he will act within that 2 party system.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Let’s say I agree with this. What is the solution? Sanders has already proved - and to some people this is a positive - that he will act within that 2 party system.

It's a good question, and I'm not sure I have an answer that I'm confident in. I do think whatever the case, there's no overnight option, so to speak. This is something that will be a multi-decade fight to get out of. A movement I think is just barely starting to get rolling when you focus on millennials, which is where it should start, the young voters who will have time to carry the fight for years ahead. That's promising to me.

The key to it all is if they can find a dedicated and charismatic leader to figurehead the movement, that will be the biggest challenge IMO. Bernie was good to wake people up, it's who can emerge to carry it forward for the next 10, 20 years? I'm not sure that person exists right now, or it's at least nobody I've yet heard of.

 

[rockaction]

It's a good question, and I'm not sure I have an answer that I'm confident in. I do think whatever the case, there's no overnight option, so to speak. This is something that will be a multi-decade fight to get out of. A movement I think is just barely starting to get rolling when you focus on millennials, which is where it should start, the young voters who will have time to carry the fight for years ahead. That's promising to me.

The key to it all is if they can find a dedicated and charismatic leader to figurehead the movement, that will be the biggest challenge IMO. Bernie was good to wake people up, it's who can emerge to carry it forward for the next 10, 20 years? I'm not sure that person exists right now, or it's at least nobody I've yet heard of.

Somebody will come along. There's always somebody willing to embrace the irrelevancy that comes with 25-30% approval. 

 

[ren hoek]

Let’s say I agree with this. What is the solution? Sanders has already proved - and to some people this is a positive - that he will act within that 2 party system.

I don't think there is a political solution anymore.  

If there is, it'd be thru a 3rd/Ind party.  

 

[BladeRunner]

Let’s say I agree with this. What is the solution? Sanders has already proved - and to some people this is a positive - that he will act within that 2 party system.

Hugo Chavez said the same thing.  he promised all kinds of big government programs like what the Democratic Socialists are saying now and then once he got in power he packed the government with his cronies and switched it over to straight socialism.

And once again we've seen the results of socialism.  Poverty and death.

 

[KiddLattimer]

Somebody will come along. There's always somebody willing to embrace the irrelevancy that comes with 25-30% approval. 

That 25-30% group may prove very relevant in November and beyond