beef
Footballguy
True. Just like when Elway won his super bowls. Could have plugged in just about any QB to win them since they had a stellar running game and defense.
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John Elway (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Buffaloes
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ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Elway wasn't great his final season but he was pretty efficient and not an albatross for the team. He had 22/10 TD/INT ration and 93 QB rating. Manning had 9/17 ratio with a 68 rating.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I always giggle at the hate for Elway. He was a winner as a player, and is a winner as an executive.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Apparently Elway doesn't understand the NFL players these days. No one is taking less money to play with the Broncos, John. There is no loyalty to your team. It's why you just lost 4 players when you had cap space to re-sign some of them.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
54 - 42 the six years prior to his joining the team.
4 playoff appearances. Two division titles. 3-4 in playoffs.
56.25 winning % is the 4th best all-time when compared to all-time win/loss percentage.That's right around 10th all-time in the Super Bowl era.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
And yet he built a team that just won the Super Bowl. Yep, he clearly does not understand NFL players.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Damn right.
On the flip side, I don't have a problem with players chasing the big contract, given the short shelf life of NFL players; you have to grab that big pay day when it is there, since it may never be there again.
On the flip side, I don't have a problem with players chasing the big contract, given the short shelf life of NFL players; you have to grab that big pay day when it is there, since it may never be there again.
flapgreen
Footballguy
He definitely recognizes young talent. No doubt about that, but his statement suggests he doesn't get the mindset of the vets
Buffaloes
Footballguy
how does a guy who signed Peyton Manning, Demarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, Wes Welker, and retained 2 of his own top-level defensive talents (who play high leverage positions) well below market value bjust before they hit the open market not understand vets?
Manning specifically attributed Elway's knowledge and experience as a player to him leveling with Manning prior to signing.
Boston
Footballguy
Elway is doing an excellent job...he built a championship team using free agency correctly which usually is a recipe for disaster...he is now facing three issues...one, going hard in the free agent world leads to cap issues...it will be a little dicey short-term but he will figure that out (and the fact they won a title makes it much easier to swallow)...two, once guys win a championship many of them start eying the big payday (and teams overvalue your players) which is what they dealing with right now...it's a great problem to have because it is an offshoot of a title...the key to overcoming that is drafting well which he should be able to do...the third issue Elway is facing is a huge one...the most important one...finding a QB...there isn't one on the roster, they do not have a high pick and the pickings are very slim finding it elsewhere...this will be his biggest challenge because while they won with subpar to average QB play last year that formula doesn't work too often...I would expect Denver to take a step backwards this year but long term it will all fall on Elway's ability to hit on the draft and find a legit QB (which is pretty much the formula for every team)...
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
As a Broncos fan I think it was the wrong move for Wolfe or Harris not to chase the money. You've already won a championship, and you only have 10 years in the league give or take. If it's me, I go after the money. It's silly to criticize players that do chase the big payday. You think if Chris Harris blows out his ACL the team is going to be loyal to him, and still pay him the massive contract he could have commanded? I don't.
massraider
Footballguy
It is a very good team they built.
It might not have been built for the long haul, but big deal. The Seahawks were all home-grown talent, all young cheap players, and they have as many championships with that core as the Broncos.
A lot of teams have dipped their toe in free agency, to make that final push, and fail. Most, in fact. Broncos hit it out of the park in free agency. But they also scored with Trevathan, Marshall, Demaryius, CJ Anderson, and Wolfe. Great draft picks. This was NOT just a team built by free agency. kind of a perfect melding of the two.
If I have one criticism, it's that they could have locked up some of their own players with long term deals. They knew teams would have loads of room, and that they were gonna have some big numbers. Could have locked up Trevathan for less than 7 mill last summer. Malik as well, obviously. But there's a lot of 20/20 hindsight with that. Did anyone scream that they should be locking up Malik in August??
Nonetheless, unless they planning on scoring in free agency every year, got to continue to draft well, and re-sign those guys.
The Osweiler/Elway thing...........eh. Whatever. Maybe Oz shouldn't be such a sensitive boy, and maybe Elway shouldn't act like a scorned ex-wife. But in general, you expect the 25 year old to be immature. The old man exec needs to take the high road. It makes Elway look bad, because they offered 15 mill/year. You wanted him at 15/year, but now that someone beats it, you didn't want him?? Come on now, Johnny......
It might not have been built for the long haul, but big deal. The Seahawks were all home-grown talent, all young cheap players, and they have as many championships with that core as the Broncos.
A lot of teams have dipped their toe in free agency, to make that final push, and fail. Most, in fact. Broncos hit it out of the park in free agency. But they also scored with Trevathan, Marshall, Demaryius, CJ Anderson, and Wolfe. Great draft picks. This was NOT just a team built by free agency. kind of a perfect melding of the two.
If I have one criticism, it's that they could have locked up some of their own players with long term deals. They knew teams would have loads of room, and that they were gonna have some big numbers. Could have locked up Trevathan for less than 7 mill last summer. Malik as well, obviously. But there's a lot of 20/20 hindsight with that. Did anyone scream that they should be locking up Malik in August??
Nonetheless, unless they planning on scoring in free agency every year, got to continue to draft well, and re-sign those guys.
The Osweiler/Elway thing...........eh. Whatever. Maybe Oz shouldn't be such a sensitive boy, and maybe Elway shouldn't act like a scorned ex-wife. But in general, you expect the 25 year old to be immature. The old man exec needs to take the high road. It makes Elway look bad, because they offered 15 mill/year. You wanted him at 15/year, but now that someone beats it, you didn't want him?? Come on now, Johnny......
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I think the Broncos did want him, but not for the money he got from Houston.
massraider
Footballguy
I don't even think it was some completely horrible mistake. I don't really have a strong feeling on Oz, I did feel like he was a Captain Checkdown, but young QBs often are.
If Elway finds a QB, this won't matter, or may turn out to be a great move.
If Oz turns into a Pro Bowler, and Elway can't find one, it's on him.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Tough decision, but if you draft a qb and groom him with every intention of him taking over, and then let him walk after he played pretty well, that doesn't make any sense to me. You pay the guy if that's been your plan all along. Elway's ego hot the best of him on this one and it left Denver without a qb
massraider
Footballguy
This actually brings up a larger point.
People talk about draftee QBs needing a year or two on the bench. Draft a developmental QB, and he takes over. Sounds great.
But the cap realities are different. If a team only gets a brief look at a QB, before his 2nd contract is due, like Osweiler, the team isn't really sure if he's a worth a big second deal. Teams need to play the rookies ASAP, to evaluate him, and then sign him. Let him take his lumps his rookie year, or 2nd year at the latest, and let him start for a few years on his rookie deal.
No one really knows what Oz will become, and time will tell who made the right call. But if a team has plans for a rookie to take over, they need to get him playing time quickly.
It boils down to being penny smart/pound foolish. Groom Oz for 4 years alla Rodgers. Then offer Oz below market value? U gotta look at comparables, tannehill, bradford, etc before letting Oz hit free agency at 25years old with potential and sitting behind peyton for 4 years.
houston offering 3 mill a year more than denver, wasnt even that much more. I bet between Sanchez and whichever scrub they trade for they will prob come close to spending 18mil and still have to re teach the system to new guys, just so they can prove something. Seems like alot of work.
Just chaulk it up Elway and say oops.
houston offering 3 mill a year more than denver, wasnt even that much more. I bet between Sanchez and whichever scrub they trade for they will prob come close to spending 18mil and still have to re teach the system to new guys, just so they can prove something. Seems like alot of work.
Just chaulk it up Elway and say oops.
GregR
Footballguy
Denver upped their offer to $16m. So $2m more a year and $7m more guaranteed in the first 2 years. Denver is one of the worst teams as far as cap situation. I'm not sure how high they could have gone. That's assuming Osweiler would have gone with them for even money as opposed to the couple of reasons listed other places on why he might have wanted to start new somewhere else.
Failing to sign Von Miller to a long term deal probably has played a big role in how their off season is going I'd think. If they could have signed him to something and pushed his money into future years with a signing bonus, would have had more to operate with. Maybe it wouldn't have been enough to keep Osweiler either way, but some of their other losses at least.
Failing to sign Von Miller to a long term deal probably has played a big role in how their off season is going I'd think. If they could have signed him to something and pushed his money into future years with a signing bonus, would have had more to operate with. Maybe it wouldn't have been enough to keep Osweiler either way, but some of their other losses at least.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
I'm pretty happy they let Osweiler go at that price. I never was a fan of his watching him in preseason in his early years, and although he played better than I thought he would, it is not like his play screamed "franchise quarterback".
For a guy that tall he gets a lot of passes batted down, which I think is the result of his sidearm delivery. And he has a tendency to hang on to the ball far too long, and has only adequate pocket presence. He kind of reminds me of Chris Simms mixed with Philip Rivers. He might develop into a good quarterback, but I would bet against it.
It's funny how I used to say the same thing to fellow Broncos fans and get jeered, and now all I get are heads nodding in agreement.
For a guy that tall he gets a lot of passes batted down, which I think is the result of his sidearm delivery. And he has a tendency to hang on to the ball far too long, and has only adequate pocket presence. He kind of reminds me of Chris Simms mixed with Philip Rivers. He might develop into a good quarterback, but I would bet against it.
It's funny how I used to say the same thing to fellow Broncos fans and get jeered, and now all I get are heads nodding in agreement.
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moleculo
Footballguy
I don't think Elway was going to win a bidding war vs Houston. I believe they had a mandate to get a QB this off-season, based on them being a playoff team despite horrible QB play and Hoyer throwing 4 picks vs KC. They already barked up the Fitzpatrick tree, and Osweiler is literally the only other FA QB available who might be an upgrade over Hoyer.
I think Elway valued Os at $12M - a reasonable price for a guy with just 7 unconvincing starts. He was being out bid, and upped his offer to $16M, but could go no further.
I think Elway valued Os at $12M - a reasonable price for a guy with just 7 unconvincing starts. He was being out bid, and upped his offer to $16M, but could go no further.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I agree with that. I think Houston was all in on Osweiler, and they were gonna spend whatever it took to get him. Once again, I'm glad the Broncos didn't overpay to keep him. Giving that much money to a QB based on that tiny of a sample size is madness. People are freaking out now, but the season doesn't start for six months. I am confident he will have the QB situation is good shape before long.
flapgreen
Footballguy
I think the Broncos fans are under selling the value of a decent qb. Last year was an anomaly by having poor qb play and still winning the super bowl. Again, what was Elway's plan? He groomed the guy, apparently, under Peyton for a few years. He played fairly well last season for a guy who had never started an NFL game. Not sure what else you guys were wanting to see from a qb who hadn't played much. He held down the fort well. Did he think he was not going to have to pay him big money for his second contract? He's basically saying he isn't paying huge money to a qb who isn't proven, but then has no one who was given a chance to prove himself. You'll rarely ever find a qb in free agency who's worth signing because all of the good qbs are re-signed by there own teams. The Broncos defense is great and I could see them still being successful consistently as a team, but thinking he will have the qb situation in good shape before long is wishful thinking IMO. I'm not doubting Elway. He's built a great team, but he's not without flaws.
He knew this was coming at some point with Peyton retiring and now he looks completely unprepared.
He knew this was coming at some point with Peyton retiring and now he looks completely unprepared.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I don't think so. From 1999-2011, we had to deal with Griese, Frerotte, Kannel, Plummer, Orton, Tebow, etc. at QB, so I am pretty sure we Broncos fan know the value of a good QB. Having a good QB makes it far easier to win a lot of games from year to year; that goes without saying. But that doesn't mean you break the bank for an unproven QB who is still somewhat of a project (needs major work on his pocket presence, and his red zone play wasn't good).
massraider
Footballguy
No doubt. The team asked Osweiler to manage games, and he did. He wasn't tearing it up down the field, winning games himself.
Riversco
Footballguy
I forget where I read it (it probably was on this forum somewhere) but Elway's approach is to draft / sign as free agents defensive guys that HE would be afraid to play against. That approach seems to have served him very very well. That defense is truly scary right now. But its interesting that it means a Hall of Fame QB actually is the perfect guy to construct your defense. Then you top it off by signing a free agent hall of fame QB, and the rest is history.
The question is can Elway correctly identify a franchise QB in the draft, and have the nerve to go get him?
The question is can Elway correctly identify a franchise QB in the draft, and have the nerve to go get him?
GregR
Footballguy
"Break the bank" seems a bit over the top.Ghost Rider said:
Osweiler's $18m/year puts him in a tie for 15th in annual salary among QBs. More recent contracts are bigger than older ones because the cap goes up. He's tied with Romo for 15th with their $18m a year contracts. Romo was signed when the cap was $133m, now it's over $155m. If Romo's contract was signed today for the same slice of the cap he would be making $21m a year.
Guessing Osweiler's contract is probably around QB22 in terms of cap spent on him at the time of the contract, ahead of Foles. If Luck, Mariota, Winston, and Bridgewater weren't on rookie contracts and could get paid resignee value, Osweiler's contract probably would value him around QB 26. Given you have to overpay any Free Agent a bit, I'm not seeing a big discrepancy in the dollar value here. It's mostly an artifact of being a more recent signee.
The place he ranks higher, that the media focuses on to make it more salacious, is guaranteed money per year. Again, the higher cap contributes. So does contract length. If it was a 7 year contract at that level I'd call it excessive as it would include a lot of future year's salary. But his is shorter and the guaranteed money is mostly his first 2 years salary that I think he'd see anyway (even Manziel lasted 2 years). You'd rather give as little as possible, obviously, but I'm just not seeing anything that particularly worries me. It would take a pretty spectacular implosion for him to not get paid 2 years worth, and he has a pretty reasonable cap hit if cut after 2 years.
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massraider
Footballguy
The structure of this deal will be very, very interesting.
Odd that they'd pay a ton for a T to protect Mark Sanchez and match CJ at more than they should have but won't pony up for a QB (just talking Osweiler).
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Elway bumped his head
Ok the detailss arent bad
Ok the detailss arent bad
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thatguy
Footballguy
Unless I'm missing something, this looks like a great signing. Only $5 million in the first year is guaranteed, with club options of $12 million the next 4 years. Had they restructured with Clady, they'd have been lucky to get him down to $5 million, so they get a younger, better LT at or below the price of Clady and can now acquire extra draft picks by moving Clady.
flapgreen
Footballguy
flapgreen
Footballguy
thatguy
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
Nothing wrong with a one-year prove-it deal.
Depends on the definition of health. Clady's had 2 season ending injuries, but he also has 6 other years of 16 games played. Okung on the other hand has missed from 1-8 games every year and averaged 12 games played each year. So, Okung has never played 16 games in his career. Half the time he has missed 4+ games and half he has missed 2 games. You are taking a risk with Clady, but if healthy he plays. Okung gets nicked up every year. Sort of a toss up.
Could be a good move, but I do recall hearing last year that Okung's play had diminished, so with him being 29 at the beginning of the season, this will likely be a 1 year deal. Then again, you got nothing out of Clady last year, so it's an improvement.
Hooper31
Footballguy
ORLY? This Seahawk fan is glad to see Okung and his multiple false starts per game moving on. I'm not going to bother with the health issues of either players. Everyone is an injury risk, and injuries in year N are no predictor of injuries in year N+1. I would rather have Clady every day of the week and in particular twice on Sunday.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Just to comment on original thrust of thread, really respect Elway as a player and as a GM, and no doubt he's in the upper echelon of sports figures who have had huge impact to the teams/cities they have been associated with.
One name not mentioned (I think) so far is Wayne Gretzky. Not only the franchise face for a team and the greater professional league, but also for the entire sport and and country.
Gretzky was instrumental to the combination/consolidation of the WHA and NHL in the late 70s. His contribution to the Oilers and the city of Edmonton are immeasurable, as he literally blew past all the records and put the team on his shoulders (despite phenomenal supporting talent) turning them into a dynasty. He changed the sport itself (The Gretzky rule of offsetting penalties; introduction of the team game), "The Trade" to LA that was a pivotal moment for revitalizing LA's hockey interest and serving as a true catalyst for the NHL expanding West and South.
As an Olympian himself, and as executive director of Canada's national team, he was instrumental in getting Canada back to international prominence (winning the first goal for Canada in 50 years, and again in 2010).
Knocks on his coaching and managing the Coyotes aren't enough to displace the mountain of influence Gretzky has had on all levels.
One name not mentioned (I think) so far is Wayne Gretzky. Not only the franchise face for a team and the greater professional league, but also for the entire sport and and country.
Gretzky was instrumental to the combination/consolidation of the WHA and NHL in the late 70s. His contribution to the Oilers and the city of Edmonton are immeasurable, as he literally blew past all the records and put the team on his shoulders (despite phenomenal supporting talent) turning them into a dynasty. He changed the sport itself (The Gretzky rule of offsetting penalties; introduction of the team game), "The Trade" to LA that was a pivotal moment for revitalizing LA's hockey interest and serving as a true catalyst for the NHL expanding West and South.
As an Olympian himself, and as executive director of Canada's national team, he was instrumental in getting Canada back to international prominence (winning the first goal for Canada in 50 years, and again in 2010).
Knocks on his coaching and managing the Coyotes aren't enough to displace the mountain of influence Gretzky has had on all levels.
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