Jon Ogden vs Larry Allen (1 Viewer)

[crystal]

Buchsbaum is a dallas homer in my humble opinion.

Why would he be a Dallas homer? He was a Jets fan growing up. As an adult living in Brooklyn, he didn't show an allegiance to any team -- but if he was a homer at all, it was most arguably for the Patriots. Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli were two of the dozen or so people who attended his funeral (the others being family members or people he worked with at Pro Football Weekly).

 

[bcr8f]

Both. I'd bump Warren Sapp down.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Allen is more dominant player at multiple positions and in my opinion played on more dominant team(s) for longer period of time.

Allen's career record is sub-.500.

 

[ravnzfan]

In 2004 we had one of the great passing seasons of all times by Peyton Manning. Ditto Tom Brady last year. Please link to all the plaudits for that for the two LT's. I seem to have missed where they got the credit.

Did you watch the Pro Bowl game those years?

You mean the one where they effusively praise every player there because the game itself isn't much of a story? No. I don't much pay attention to the popularity contest that is the Pro Bowl.

Both Tarik Glenn and Matt Light made the Pro Bowl those years. I'd say that's giving them credit for the great passing seasons by their QBs.If we're going to say that the offensive line is important -- and I doubt you're going to find anyone that thinks the OL isn't an extremely important part of a team's offense -- we should be at least a little hesitant to say an offensive lineman is one of the greatest OL ever when his team's offense stinks every year.

No one would say some QB is one of the best ever if his team's offense is below average every year. I'm not saying Ogden isn't great, or isn't a HOFer, but merely that some level of skepticism about his rank in the pantheon of great OL is necessary when analyzing him. A team's offensive line is tied very strongly to a team's offensive success. If a team's offense stinks, that's a pretty good sign that the OL isn't very good. It's possible that a bad OL could consist of one amazing T and four really bad lineman, of course, but I'm not sure if that's a defensible argument in Ogden's case.

this is some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen from you, Chasethe O many of those seasons ranked as high as "middle of the pack" (I know), w/strong run games by a couple differnt guys (including the Padre's 1st 1K yd season)

3 yrs under Teddy-ball: finished 6-22-25

1st 5 under Billick: 14-14-18-27-8

last 4 under BB: 20-25-12-24 (note that this is where Ogden starting missing time, as he started 16 gms but once in this period...hmm)

the QB back play and passing game in general have been piss poor...OK, we all get that

to lay the wood on Ogden for the failings of the team in regards to it's passing game does not follow common logic....go thru the dummies that lined up back there:

Mitchell, Case, Banks, Harbaugh...give me a break---Dilfer gets knocked, but the guy ran the team as he was asked, then got booted for the cry baby that was Grbac...sans Redmen, Boller and McNair @35 yrs old

as one who has seen him play most every game he's been on the field, it went unsaid Ogden defended his portion of the field solo...no TE to his side, RB chipping required--none of that

started @LG yr 1 as a rookie, then moved to LT and rolled w/11 Pro Bowls at the position

per ACP's point, I liked the versatility Allen provided, but feel Ogden gets the edge on talent....AND he wins the TD battle(2/0) and FumRec(10/4)

 

[Chase Stuart]

In 2004 we had one of the great passing seasons of all times by Peyton Manning. Ditto Tom Brady last year. Please link to all the plaudits for that for the two LT's. I seem to have missed where they got the credit.

Did you watch the Pro Bowl game those years?

You mean the one where they effusively praise every player there because the game itself isn't much of a story? No. I don't much pay attention to the popularity contest that is the Pro Bowl.

Both Tarik Glenn and Matt Light made the Pro Bowl those years. I'd say that's giving them credit for the great passing seasons by their QBs.If we're going to say that the offensive line is important -- and I doubt you're going to find anyone that thinks the OL isn't an extremely important part of a team's offense -- we should be at least a little hesitant to say an offensive lineman is one of the greatest OL ever when his team's offense stinks every year.

No one would say some QB is one of the best ever if his team's offense is below average every year. I'm not saying Ogden isn't great, or isn't a HOFer, but merely that some level of skepticism about his rank in the pantheon of great OL is necessary when analyzing him. A team's offensive line is tied very strongly to a team's offensive success. If a team's offense stinks, that's a pretty good sign that the OL isn't very good. It's possible that a bad OL could consist of one amazing T and four really bad lineman, of course, but I'm not sure if that's a defensible argument in Ogden's case.

this is some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen from you, Chasethe O many of those seasons ranked as high as "middle of the pack" :X (I know), w/strong run games by a couple differnt guys (including the Padre's 1st 1K yd season)

3 yrs under Teddy-ball: finished 6-22-25

1st 5 under Billick: 14-14-18-27-8

last 4 under BB: 20-25-12-24 (note that this is where Ogden starting missing time, as he started 16 gms but once in this period...hmm)

the QB back play and passing game in general have been piss poor...OK, we all get that

to lay the wood on Ogden for the failings of the team in regards to it's passing game does not follow common logic....go thru the dummies that lined up back there:

Mitchell, Case, Banks, Harbaugh...give me a break---Dilfer gets knocked, but the guy ran the team as he was asked, then got booted for the cry baby that was Grbac...sans Redmen, Boller and McNair @35 yrs old

as one who has seen him play most every game he's been on the field, it went unsaid Ogden defended his portion of the field solo...no TE to his side, RB chipping required--none of that

started @LG yr 1 as a rookie, then moved to LT and rolled w/11 Pro Bowls at the position

per ACP's point, I liked the versatility Allen provided, but feel Ogden gets the edge on talent....AND he wins the TD battle(2/0) and FumRec(10/4)

You're using points scored, not yards gained. Sure, the Ravens D and ST scored lots of points, but Ogden's not responsible for that.No one is saying Ogden isn't one of the best tackles of all time. I'm just saying his star loses a bit of luster when you consider how inept his team's offense was throughout his career, despite playing alongside many different parts.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Allen is more dominant player at multiple positions and in my opinion played on more dominant team(s) for longer period of time.

Allen's career record is sub-.500.

So is Barry Sanders'.I think that would be a lot more relevant in basketball than in football. (And obviously much more relevant still in boxing.)

No one would say some QB is one of the best ever if his team's offense is below average every year.

Archie Manning made the Pro Bowl a few times without ever having a single winning season in his career.

 

[Tau837]

No one would say some QB is one of the best ever if his team's offense is below average every year.

Archie Manning made the Pro Bowl a few times without ever having a single winning season in his career.

The point remains that no one claims Archie is one of the best QBs ever.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Allen is more dominant player at multiple positions and in my opinion played on more dominant team(s) for longer period of time.

Allen's career record is sub-.500.

So is Barry Sanders'.I think that would be a lot more relevant in basketball than in football. (And obviously much more relevant still in boxing.)

No one would say some QB is one of the best ever if his team's offense is below average every year.

Archie Manning made the Pro Bowl a few times without ever having a single winning season in his career.

We know a few things.1) A great offensive line and a great offense are highly correlated, and there's a very strong causation element in there.

2) A bad offense, on average, has a bad offensive line.

3) Jonathon Ogden played on offenses that were bad his entire career. Some were awful, some were average, some were mediocre -- but on average, his offenses are just plain bad.

4) The talent around Ogden wasn't awful, on either the line or the skill position players. He's played with two stud TEs, a lot of QBs that had either a lot of potential or prior success, and some very good RBs. He's also played most of his career under an offensive genius, but that's probably a low blow.

5) Most impotrantly, we know this: there is almost no objective way of measuring the value of an offensive lineman. We have exactly three stats for lineman: games, games started, and subjective awards (pro bowls, all pro teams, etc.). That's really, really bad.

For example, Alan Faneca in 2004 started 16 games, made the Pro Bowl, and was named a First Team All Pro. Alan Faneca in 2007 started 16 games, made the Pro Bowl, and was named a First Team All Pro. The majority of Steelers fans will tell you Faneca was awesome in 2004, and just okay in 2007. Yet there's absolutely nothing they can point to, objectively, to back that up.

With Ogden, it's of course possible that he was one of the greatest three LTs of all time, and his team's awful offensive output has nothing at all to do with. But we might say that the burden of proof shifts to the Ogden backer to justify that, when he's played with a ton of different QBs, RBs, WRs, TEs, other OL and he's the one common theme on a bad offense for a decade. In the absence of some objective proof that Ogden was awesome, we have to at least entertain the possibility that he's largely overrated.

 

[Balco]

One only needs to watch Jonathan Ogden play to know see that he was one of the best LT's, and offensive lineman, in the history of the game.

As a pass blocker, he was incredible. Great technique, and used his long arms to keep pass rushers away from the qb. As someone said, no help from the TE, no chip blocking rb, it was him v. the defender, often times the best pass rusher on the opposing team. To make the claim that Ogden was overrated it ludicrous. Watch the guy play, it seems some on here have not. Judge him on the offense? What? Many will say Barry Sanders is the best running back of all time. But since his teams were under .500, does that mean we should anoint him overrated?

Allen was also a tremendous offensive lineman. I can't think of one much stronger than him.

Because I believe left tackle is the more difficult O Line position, I choose Ogden over Allen. But both are 1st ballot HOFers in my opinion.

 

[Chase Stuart]

One only needs to watch Jonathan Ogden play to know see that he was one of the best LT's, and offensive lineman, in the history of the game. As a pass blocker, he was incredible. Great technique, and used his long arms to keep pass rushers away from the qb. As someone said, no help from the TE, no chip blocking rb, it was him v. the defender, often times the best pass rusher on the opposing team. To make the claim that Ogden was overrated it ludicrous. Watch the guy play, it seems some on here have not. Judge him on the offense? What? Many will say Barry Sanders is the best running back of all time. But since his teams were under .500, does that mean we should anoint him overrated? Allen was also a tremendous offensive lineman. I can't think of one much stronger than him. Because I believe left tackle is the more difficult O Line position, I choose Ogden over Allen. But both are 1st ballot HOFers in my opinion.

Sanders was on a team that finished 1st one year, and 2nd another, in offensive yards. The majority of Ogden's teams ranked in the 20s in yards. Sanders' offenses were a lot better than the Ravens' offenses.It's easy and noncontroversial to say Ogden was great. But was he better than Pace? Jones? Bruce Matthews? Munoz? Shell? Roaf? Armstrong? Webb? Slater?To put it another way, which year do you think was Ogden's best year?

 

[Balco]

One only needs to watch Jonathan Ogden play to know see that he was one of the best LT's, and offensive lineman, in the history of the game.

As a pass blocker, he was incredible. Great technique, and used his long arms to keep pass rushers away from the qb. As someone said, no help from the TE, no chip blocking rb, it was him v. the defender, often times the best pass rusher on the opposing team. To make the claim that Ogden was overrated it ludicrous. Watch the guy play, it seems some on here have not. Judge him on the offense? What? Many will say Barry Sanders is the best running back of all time. But since his teams were under .500, does that mean we should anoint him overrated?

Allen was also a tremendous offensive lineman. I can't think of one much stronger than him.

Because I believe left tackle is the more difficult O Line position, I choose Ogden over Allen. But both are 1st ballot HOFers in my opinion.

Sanders was on a team that finished 1st one year, and 2nd another, in offensive yards. The majority of Ogden's teams ranked in the 20s in yards. Sanders' offenses were a lot better than the Ravens' offenses.It's easy and noncontroversial to say Ogden was great. But was he better than Pace? Jones? Bruce Matthews? Munoz? Shell? Roaf? Armstrong? Webb? Slater?

To put it another way, which year do you think was Ogden's best year?

I love the offensive line talk. Offensive lines are my favorite positions to talk about. I might be the only one in existence whose watches O Line instead of skill positions when watching games.I think first we need to look at Ogden v. the other tackles. When you talk about overrated, Orlando Pace needs to be mentioned. Above average O Lineman? Yep. Hall of Famer? Likely. But not in Ogden's class. Now remember, I look at O lineman by their individual performance on the field. That is, how did they perform each play? If you are talking last 25 years, you need to put Munoz and Ogden together. Anthony Munoz could have played tight end with his athleticism. Another guy not mentioned who was on his way to going down as an all time great was Tony Bosseli. Awesome player. Too bad his bum shoulders kept him from continuing playing. Walter Jones, with a couple more seasons, will join Munoz and Ogden, IMO. Bruce Matthews was the most versatile lineman in the league. The others you mentioned - Armstrong - solid tackle, not HOF worthy, Webb - Just misses on the Hall, excellent pass blocker, Slater, his longevity makes him a little overrated.

Here are some of my favorite lineman to watch over the last several years:

Dermonti Dawson, C Steelers: Awesome, underrated center. Love those athletic centers who can pull and lead on a sweep.

Alan Fanaca, G, Steelers: All around great guard.

WIll Shields, G Chiefs: IMO, the best guard to play the position. Hannah is right there, as is Larry Allen, but Shields was awesome. Fantastic pulling guard, was very in control in the open field, very tough to do at 300 pounds.

Gary Zimmerman, T Vikes, Broncos: Another underrated player, IMO.

Tom Nalen, C Broncos: Great technique.

Mark Stepnoski, C Cowboys: Undersized, but played at very high level.

Willie Roaf: Top five left tackle of all time

Randall McDaniel: I would never tell the players I coach to get in a 3 point stance like McDaniel, but this guy could play.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

We know a few things.

1) A great offensive line and a great offense are highly correlated, and there's a very strong causation element in there.

We know this how?I agree that it's true. But in order to know it, we have to be able to evaluate offensive line play independently of general offensive success. (If we simply define good offensive lines as being those in good offenses, that's circular and therefore meaningless.)

So how do we evaluate offensive line play independently of general offensive success? I'd submit that we do it by watching whether the linemen consistently make their blocks instead of missing them. This requires watching a lot of film (and knowing what to look for).

I doubt many casual fans do this, but NFL teams and scouting departments do it quite rigorously. They typically grade each player on every play based on whether he carried out his assignment successfully or not.

If you ask the people who have evaluated Ogden based on studying a lot of game film (coaches, scouts, and player personnel guys, etc.), or guys who have actually played against him, they all tend to regard Ogden very highly, at least publicly. I know of no exceptions.

A single great offensive lineman can't make an offense good the way a single great QB or RB might be able to (although Walter Payton, O.J. Simpson, and LaDainian Tomlinson are just a few names on a much longer list of RBs and QBs who've had individually great seasons in generally poor offenses). One missed block can entirely ruin a play. But one made block won't entirely make it go. You need to get all the defenders blocked, and then the skilled guys need to do their thing. Having a good LT is considered very important -- not because a good LT can make a bad offense good, but because not having a good LT can make a good offense bad. Solid play from the LT position is necessary but not sufficient for offensive success.

 

[Chase Stuart]

We know a few things.

1) A great offensive line and a great offense are highly correlated, and there's a very strong causation element in there.

We know this how?I agree that it's true. But in order to know it, we have to be able to evaluate offensive line play independently of general offensive success. (If we simply define good offensive lines as being those in good offenses, that's circular and therefore meaningless.)

So how do we evaluate offensive line play independently of general offensive success? I'd submit that we do it by watching whether the linemen consistently make their blocks instead of missing them. This requires watching a lot of film (and knowing what to look for).

I doubt many casual fans do this, but NFL teams and scouting departments do it quite rigorously. They typically grade each player on every play based on whether he carried out his assignment successfully or not.

If you ask the people who have evaluated Ogden based on studying a lot of game film (coaches, scouts, and player personnel guys, etc.), or guys who have actually played against him, they all tend to regard Ogden very highly, at least publicly. I know of no exceptions.

A single great offensive lineman can't make an offense good the way a single great QB or RB might be able to (although Walter Payton, O.J. Simpson, and LaDainian Tomlinson are just a few names on a much longer list of RBs and QBs who've had individually great seasons in generally poor offenses). One missed block can entirely ruin a play. But one made block won't entirely make it go. You need to get all the defenders blocked, and then the skilled guys need to do their thing. Having a good LT is considered very important -- not because a good LT can make a bad offense good, but because not having a good LT can make a good offense bad. Solid play from the LT position is necessary but not sufficient for offensive success.

I agree with all your points.But one would think that Ogden would have played on a great offense at one point. Pace has. Jones has. Munoz did. Go up and down the list, and you're not going to find a T that played on worse offenses than Ogden.

 

[Tyrion]

I love watching the offensive line play and to me Larry Allen is the best lineman to ever play. We all know how strong and explosive he was but he also had great balance and speed. Yeah I said it. Speed. The man may have had problems with Parcell's endurance runs late in his career after he had injured his knee but early in his career he was probably the fast olineman in the league. Everyone remembers him running down that DB 50 yards down the field during a Dallas turnover.

Speed, power and balance made him an incredible pulling guard. linebackers and safeties would throw themselves to the ground rather than face him as he came around the corner. It was a rare running play when Larry Allen didn't block more than one guy. I freqently would see him block 3 guys during a play. He handled his oponents with ease and the only time I can really say that I saw him have difficulty was one game during his rookie season against Reggie White when he was playing with a sprained ankle. BTW in that game he still helped Aikman have what he considers the best game in his career. Larry Allen has shut down noted pass rushers and dominant defensive lineman like White, Simeon Rice, John Randle, Warren Sapp, Kris Jenkins, Hugh Douglass, and Chad Bratzke just to name a few.

Keep in mind that At 6'3 he was very short for a tackle but he made the transition without difficulty and dominated the position.

He has been to 11 pro bowls and has been named All-Pro 8 times. 7 times at guard and 1 time at tackle. At the time and (maybe still) he was just the third player in league history to be named to the pro bowl at more than one offensive line position. As proof of his versatility he has played all but one position along the offensive line in 11 seasons in Dallas, moving between right tackle (1994), right guard (1995-97), left tackle (1997-98) and left guard (1999-03). Most lineman have a problem switching positions and even sides but Allen would switch from right to left from guard to tackle all during the same season and have no problems. Even as a rookie he played both right and left tackle when injuries hit pro bowl tackles Mark Tuinei and Erik Williams.

In his first nfl game while going in as at left tackle for Mark Tuinei he helped hold the Washington defense sackless. Keep in mind that Larry Allen was doing this right after being drafted from Sonoma State, a Division II school. Later in the same season he helped hold the Saints sackless while playing right tackle for an injured Erik Williams.

One impressive blip on his career radar occurred in 1998 when he started every game at Left Tackle and earned Pro Bowl and All Pro honors. I got the stats from the 49er team site but remember it well.

"In November, faced four of NFC’s top defensive ends in Hugh Douglas (fifth in NFC with 12.5 sacks in 1998), Chad Bratzke (ninth with 11.0), Simeon Rice (tied for 11th with 10.0) and John Randle (10th with 10.5). Streak started at Philadelphia (11-2) when he limited Douglas to one tackle and no sacks.

• Following week against New York Giants (11-8) and Bratzke, blocking helped Smith rush for 163 yards on 29 carries (5.6 avg.). Dallas offensive line allowed no sacks to Giants defense that led NFL in sacks in 1998."

• At Arizona (11-15), limited Rice to one tackle and was part of line that allowed no sacks to Cardinals defense. Plowed way for Smith’s 118 rushing yards and three touchdowns.

• Seattle brought AFC’s top sacking defense of 1998 (11-22) and came away with just one sack (on Aikman fumble), while Cowboys ran for 173 yards.

• Limited John Randle to one tackle and no sacks in 81 offensive plays vs. Minnesota (11-26). Also helped set new club record for pass attempts in a game without a sack (57) and led way as Smith rushed for three touchdowns to tie Marcus Allen’s NFL record of 123 career rushing scores.

• In the regular season finale against Washington (12-27), part of blocking unit that saw Smith run for two more touchdowns to break NFL’s all-time rushing touchdown record.

Physically

He had a career-best bench press of 700 pounds and a squat lift of 905 pounds, Allen is considered to be the strongest man to ever play professional football.

I am sure that I am leaving out a lot of accolades but lets just say that the guy was pretty good.