(HULK)
(Smash)
I don't know if that leftism or just someone who has a mental problem of some kind.
Like, I'm not going to call flat-earthers far right, even though the majority of them are conservative.
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Jordan Peterson Explains Why (Radical) Leftists Don't Like Facts (5/23/22 14:24 PST) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GordonGekko
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Like, I'm not going to call flat-earthers far right, even though the majority of them are conservative.
dkp993
Footballguy
I’m so old and out of touch (@46 I guess) that I don’t even know what the bolded is. I’ve heard it before but just don’t know what it means.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
If you consume any amount of conservative media, the first part of that statement is absolutely false.
(HULK)
(Smash)
All I know is that it doesn't mean he's into kitchenware sexually.
The character Klaus has intercourse with boys and girls, orgies with his cult, and let's his step brother's ghost possess his body to have sex with a girl in his cult. I figured all that would qualify.
Again, I'm not sure that's fair. In my experience, every side objects more to their side being unfairly labeled more than they do the "other" side. That's human nature.
I think by far the better point is let's do less unfair generalizing for everyone.
This is an interesting point.
Your post was replying to: "The woman speaking at the NEA convention insisting on calling mothers “birthing people” would qualify as
I think regular posters know AAABatteries to be a good person and not hateful.
But do you think you would post something like that in public with your real name? Or post it in a discussion forum at work with your real name?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I’m don’t consider myself hateful and I don’t think calling somebody crazy is hateful. If someone insists on saying a woman who gives birth is a birthing person and refuses to accept “Mother” then I think that person is crazy. I do think the point about saying something in private vs. public is a good one but since you’ve given me the ability to be somewhat anonymous I’m going to I guess take advantage of that. IRL I wouldn’t even discuss it because people can’t have disagreements nowadays like adults. If asked IRL my position on this I would say the position of insisting on calling someone a birthing person is crazy but I’d stop short of directly calling that person crazy.
Thanks. I'm saying I think you are NOT hateful.
I'm saying I think if you're smart, you would never post that in public with your real name.
And that seems problematic.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Yep, I knew what you meant and I agree - that’s why I thank you for your anonymous message board
Seriously though, there’s all kinds of things that I have no problem discussing anonymously because that’s the only way to get people to open up and be real. For example, I’ve shared several things about my family that I wouldn’t if I wasn’t anonymous. I guess my point there is that it can work both ways.
But I do think it would be better for everyone if I responded to that post saying I think that idea is crazy and not the person. Point taken.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
While we are on this tangent - this is also why I think I was annoyed by some of the crackdown on borderline jokes on this board. I make jokes here (many I’m sure are lame and some are over the line for the office or polite company). But I think they are funny and many do too. Nothing hurtful, just edgy - but definitely stuff I wouldn’t say in public but maybe to one or two buddies in person.
This has nothing to do with the OP but Joe asking about anonymity made me think of it.
This has nothing to do with the OP but Joe asking about anonymity made me think of it.
matuski
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
It’s not about parsing words, it’s about an inaccurate portrayal that leads to an unfair and false equivalency. I make poor word choices often, I’m not beating you up simply for that. The idea that liberals call all conservatives racist is a BS right wing talking point. You’re not a right winger, so it’s weird to read you repeat something inaccurate like that.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
It is mainstream leftist ideology that a vagina does not make one a woman. This idea that doctors are just guessing when they put a gender on a birth certificate is considered the science. Flat earthers are just stupid and rare and are not influencing any political rhetoric or policies like this idiotic leftist ideas on gender.
It is leftism. Sorry, but these idiots have you by the balls and no one is denouncing their idiocy. They are butchung children and no one on the left is calling them out.
dkp993
Footballguy
My use of “every” was poor form and certainly exaggeration. But I didn’t come to my opinion via some talking points, I came to it via observation. It’s far to common imo, though was more common when Trump was in office and emotions were running higher from the left, as is the “woke leftist” thing is now from the right.
Tommy, part of the problem in my opinion is that each side overlooks their own sides actions and behaviors. There’s almost zero calling out of it from within. So the behavior always feels one sided to each side. “They do that not us”.
In the first year or two of Trumps presidency when the lefts anger in full bloom (anger I felt too as someone who despises Trump) there was a thread here where I got attacked by multiple posters (a few I really respect around here) for defending family members who were Trump supporters. You know what I was defending? That these were good loving people who just have a different opinion then I. I was told directly they couldn’t possibly be good people because of their support of him. These normally good rational people (a few still here to this day) told me my family, people they had never met before and whom they know nothing about other then 2 data points - who they voted for and that I said they were good people, couldn’t possibly be good people. This is the type of generalization and slander that goes on FAR to often on both sides.
Yes I’m well aware of your distain for the “both sides” argument, but as someone who doesn’t claim a camp it’s clear as day to see. It’s likely that way for me as I don’t feel the need to be protective of a side so I don’t overlook the behavior.
(HULK)
(Smash)
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Almost as bad as “both-sidesism” is the idea that only independents think for themselves, while those who identify with a party are mindless robots. Such a lazy and self interested view, in my opinion.dkp993 said:
As for the “bad people” argument, obviously that’s very personal and subjective. I’ve struggled with that a lot in my own life over the years. I have friends and family who have been nice to me over my lifetime, but some of their actions are horrific enough to make me wonder about their character. Is generally being nice enough to overcome other abhorrent views/actions/votes?
dkp993
Footballguy
So are you arguing that there’s no such thing as blind partisanism? I mean if you’re gonna take my position to the extreme and argue something I didn’t say I might as well do the same with you.
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(HULK) said:
This was in response to the post "It is mainstream leftist ideology that a vagina does not make one a woman."
That's interesting @(HULK) I would think that that's pretty mainstream among Liberals. It's basically the transgender question.
Can you elaborate on why you don't think that's a mainstream thought?
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(HULK)
(Smash)
I think the vast majority of the left doesn't really care to put a fine point on it. Live and let live drives the ideology of most of those pulling the lever for Democrats. If someone without a vagina wants society to treat them as a woman, then they're okay with that. But that doesn't mean that they think they're actually a woman. They're just about treating people like they want to be treated, and letting people have the freedom to be whatever they want to be as long as it isn't hurting anyone else.
Let's look at a hypothetical where 2% of people decided they were penguins. They wear only black and white and want people to refer to them with the new pronouns pen and per. They get surgery to add a beak to their face. I'm sure plenty on the left would support these people in their pursuit of happiness. That doesn't mean that those same people think the people identifying as penguins are actually penguins. They're not and they know it. They just are okay with letting the folks pursue their happiness and realize it's not hurting anyone but maybe themselves, but that's their right.
There certainly would be fringe voices that would say that they actually are penguins. Most of those on the left would ignore those people as crazies. However, the right wing media would go out of their way to amplify those voices. "See, this is what they really think? How can they be penguins if they were born without a beak? It's not what God made them and it isn't science either! They're trying to recruit your kids and turn them into penguins!" And thus, you end up with a situation where only very few people think trans-penguins are actually penguins, but half the country thinks the other half the country universally believes that.
I hope that clarifies it for you.
Sorry but that makes it more confusing for me.
I especially don't understand the analogy with people who thought they are penguins.
I don't think most Liberal people look at people with vaginas who think they are not women anything remotely close to that. And not as "crazies".
Are you saying Liberal people don't see trans women as actually women?
And to be super clear. I'm not arguing at all. I'm trying to understand your position.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I think most liberal people see trans people as trans people. They're happy to treat a trans woman as a woman and a trans man as a man. But they view them as a trans woman and not as woman or a trans man and not as a man.
Take Elliot Page since he's come up in this thread. I'm certain liberals would use male pronouns for him and would say, "What's up dude?" if they ran into him at the store. They doesn't mean that they think Elliot pees standing up. They know he's a trans man and not a biological man and that there is a distinction.
There are some whackos on the left that will argue that there is no difference between a trans man and a biological man. That doesn't mean the majority of liberals think that, in fact they don't. However, the right wing media actively tries to portray it that way and amplifies those voices, because their intent is not to portray an accurate view of the world but rather to influence people and their opinions.
(HULK)
(Smash)
You seem to have a point to make on media and I'm unsure why. I'm simply asking about your position.
Your point in the post was "a vagina does not make one a woman." wasn't mainstream at all.
For the trans man vs biological man point, are you saying most Liberals would be fine referring to Elliot Page as a biological woman?
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(HULK)
(Smash)
I'm suggesting that media is why people would think that a vagina isn't what makes a woman is a widely held belief. Because it isn't a widely held belief.
To your question, I think most liberals would hesitate to call Mr. Page a biological woman, because it is clearly Mr. Page's preference to not be perceived as one. And he's not exactly a biological woman anymore anyways, he's taken hormones and had surgical procedures to be more masculine. Most would consider him a trans man, but would simply refer to him as a man to honor his preference. It costs nothing to anyone to do so, so why not?
Usually, but we know there are cases where that isn't true.
My point was that traditionally there are rights of passage or roles one must assume before they are given the title of "man".
(HULK)
(Smash)
Quoting this again. I do not think this is a mainstream leftist opinion at all.jon_mx said:
@Joe Bryant The reason I'm bringing up media is because jon_mx only things that this is a mainstream leftist opinion because the media he consumes spotlights the people who do think this way. Most of the left thinks those people are off their rockers too. But the media jon consumes is trying to portray the situation in a way that is different from reality.
Thanks. I think we'll just disagree that "a vagina does not make one a woman" is not a mainstream thought among LIberals.
I understand you think Jon disagrees because you think he's been somehow convinced by media.
I disagree and I consume little to no media. I just observe.
I think it's mainstream Liberal thought that a person can be a woman and not have a vagina.
And not be considered like people who think they're penguins. Or crazies.
(HULK)
(Smash)
I live in Maryland surrounded by liberals and am friends with many. Not a single one thinks the way you're suggesting they do.
Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
I haven't asked them directly as you have, but I think most of my liberal friends would agree with the statement: "A person can be a woman and not have a vagina".
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(HULK)
(Smash)
I might even answer yes to it phrased that way. A person can believe they feel like a woman when they don't have a vagina. That's clear. Are they a woman? That's dependent on what you mean, and if that isn't explicitly defined, the answers you get might not reflect what you think they reflect.
Better to ask them if they think if there is no difference between a trans woman and a biological woman. They'll all say no to that. They understand that there is a difference.
You better be careful there. Trying to imply trans women aren't real women is considered bigoted. You could get kicked out of the tribe for such blasphemy.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
It's already been :reported:
Tribe is already working on HULK cancel paperwork as we post.
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But that's a very different goalpost from where we started.
I think most of my liberal friends would agree with the statement: "A person can be a woman and not have a vagina".
I think that's mainstream thought for most liberals.
I fully accept you disagree.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I’m also in Maryland and would strongly disagree that there aren’t plenty of liberals here who think exactly as Joe has outlined. Mostly younger people but they are numerous.
I wish it was just media. This line of thinking has a foothold in our medical associations and has completely overrun our psychological professions where any dissent is grounds for removal. NEA has pused this ideology into the curriculums for becoming a teacher so the new generation of teachers are being educated (and re-educated through their extensive continuing ed requirements), which has started trickling into the classrooms of our children. HR departments have widelt accepted the idea that trans women are women This transgender ideology is being institutionalized in workplace rules and policies, trainings, hiring policies, and in several states laws and penalties.
It is far from being some harmless act of just being forced to acknowledge someone's gender preference. Gender dysphoria which was an extremely rare condition among boys, is becoming a pandemic explosion among both girls and boys, expanding more than a hundred fold in the last 10 years. This pandemic is not rooted in biology, but is from propaganda and peer pressure as children need for acceptance is being preyed upon. Kids are accepting these newly created labels from the laundry lists of dozens of manufactured genders. Many kids are being given hormone blocking drugs which are stifling their development into becoming normal adults with reproductive capabilities. On the extremes, some are undergoing the knife for more drastic damage.
And let's nor forget the women, who are being pushed out of a chance to succeed in sports. Fortunately there has been some pushback in swimming anyways, but those restrictions are considered bigoted. This battle has just started and we will see where it goes. Whatever rules are created will be exploited by communist countries and opportunists.
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
It's also pretty meaningless if liberals are interpreting the word "be" one way while conservatives are interpreting it another way, which is exactly @(HULK)'s point. Specifically, phrased that way, many liberals are likely interpreting that sentence as "A person can life live as a woman and not have a vagina", which is a perfectly reasonable sentiment, while conservatives are assuming that liberals actually think "There's no scientific difference between a woman and a transwoman".
(HULK)
(Smash)
I'm not in that tribe guy.
Again, "real women"... It's just words. There is a difference between biological and trans women and 99.5% of the population agree. The .5% that don't make right wing headlines so they can rile people up.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Yeah, I think we libbies are a little confused about this whole issue, which seems to us sometimes to come down mostly to sports and public bathrooms.
We would probably be equally confused if legislation arose banning the practice of trying to look like a penguin.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Part of my original not mainstream comment was about doctors assigning gender at birth was guesswork and that being scientific fact. It's not.
I suppose some social scientists want to treat biological sex and gender as separate things, and fine if they want to. But doctors aren't guessing and no one really thinks that.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
On a broader scale, this discussion is telling. In an attempt to treat a minority group that has historically been shunned, ridiculed, and discriminated against with dignity and equality, liberals are being criticized for simply saying trans folks should be recognized by the gender they identify with.
Meanwhile, the official party platform for the conservative party in this country expressly opposes same sex marriage and literally calls for an amendment to codify marriage as between a man and a woman.
The fact that liberal attempts to be inclusive and empathetic on trans issues is more politically discussed and controversial than the actual bigotry written into the Republican Party platform tells you all you need to know about media and conservative bias.
Meanwhile, the official party platform for the conservative party in this country expressly opposes same sex marriage and literally calls for an amendment to codify marriage as between a man and a woman.
The fact that liberal attempts to be inclusive and empathetic on trans issues is more politically discussed and controversial than the actual bigotry written into the Republican Party platform tells you all you need to know about media and conservative bias.
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For reference, can you please share a link to the official GOP platform where it describes this?
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(HULK)
(Smash)
I think he might be thinking of the Texas Republican platform:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna34530
I'm not sure what he described is in the national platform.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna34530
I'm not sure what he described is in the national platform.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Looks like Maine did something similar:
https://www.wmtw.com/amp/article/maine-republican-party-adopts-platform-against-abortion-same-sex-marriage-and-sex-education/39865524
I believe a year or two ago the national party platform dropped its take on marriage being between a man and a woman, and that's probably why it's showing up in state ones now instead.
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