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Jordan's Bulls vs the Warriors of the past 3 years (1 Viewer)

Niles Standish said:
So you're offering me odds that are something like 4 times worse than I could get in Vegas in a forum that has a very recent example of :cstu: ?
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Nope.  I thought that was the going rate.  Please link me to the odds you see because that's what I googled earlier today.

I've collected and paid in excess of $1000 in these forums.  Been stiffed once.

 
Niles Standish said:
Jordan played most of his career in an era where a whole lot more points were scored.  Probably because with the old illegal defense rules you almost couldn't double-team a player.  If you watch some Jordan highlights you'll see he is single covered pretty much all of the time.  That being said I really think there's no real logical reason to assume Jordan would score more points in today's game than in yesteryear.  Especially when you consider talent is probably better than it was back then (ignoring better condition/diet/etc in the present era) because a whole lot more foreign players are in the league nowadays.
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Dude, single covered pretty much all of the time? Are you serious?

 
Jordan had the greatest sum total of natural athleticism, skill and mental toughness of anyone in NBA history, except for maybe LeBron.  He was the greatest player in the history of basketball and had no peer in his time, nor any time, until now.  But he and LeBron are very different players, so what he and LeBron do well vs. the Dubs would be very different.  Both defend at an elite level, but LeBron was a facilitator while Jordan was a playmaker.  MJ's game was predicated on getting the ball in space to maneuver and then either create an open look or get to the FT line.  He operated from anywhere...the point, the wing, the FT line, the block....wherever the advantage lied, that's where he went.  And he could get it done from every location.  By 1996 there was literally not a single hole in his offensive game.  He was absolutely an unstoppable offensive player.

The Warriors haven't even won the title yet and have a formidable opponent before them.  MJ had to face similar teams to the Cavs in his early days against the Pistons and Celtics, but their best Finals opponent, the Jazz, were a two man show and more like the Durant/Westbrook Thunder.  I think the Warriors spacing and shooting would cause fits for the Bulls, but they would overcommit to closing on threes and then hustle back to the paint when necessary.  Jordan and Pippen were both elite help side defenders as well.  Once they figured out what the Warriors wanted to do, I think they had the athletes and the IQ to slow them down enough.

And LOL at the conditioning and endurance angle.  MJ was an elite athlete in elite shape who wanted to dominate and embarrass everyone he faced.  He learned his lesson against the Pistons and he, Pippen and Rodman would be much more physical and athletic than the Warriors and more than anyone the Warriors have ever faced.

 
I like the MJ/Leonard comparison best.  Leonard has the same body style and defensive capabilities.  He is getting better on offense, but is much more subdued personality and less aggressive and polished of a scorer.  Probably the best comparison since Kobme.

 
Jordan also played in an era where there were actual big men who camped out under the basket for days. And what did he do? He #### all over them. 

 
BassNBrew said:
Nope.  I thought that was the going rate.  Please link me to the odds you see because that's what I googled earlier today.

I've collected and paid in excess of $1000 in these forums.  Been stiffed once.
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Going rate for the Warriors winning in 5 I couldn't find it but no way it would be pay 2 to win 1.  If you just meant for Warriors to beat Cavs then it's probably pretty fair rate.  I'm not a gambler either way.

 
Niles Standish said:
Going rate for the Warriors winning in 5 I couldn't find it but no way it would be pay 2 to win 1.  If you just meant for Warriors to beat Cavs then it's probably pretty fair rate.  I'm not a gambler either way.
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That's what I meant.  I should have been more clear.

 
Badm said:
Dude, single covered pretty much all of the time? Are you serious?
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The zone defense rules back then meant you couldn't double cover a guy who didn't have the ball.  Meaning Jordan was able to make his move before he could get doubled.  Sure a big guy was usually camped out under the basket.  But seriously watch the highlights.  I think that's probably a lot of the reason that teams were scoring around 110 ppg during Jordan's prime.  They're starting to do it again now, but average points were a lot higher during Jordan's career than in the Duncan/Kobe/LeBron era.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
To be fair, Klay Thompson is seriously overrated as a defender.  He's good on isos which is where his rep comes from, but he adds little away from the ball (gets eaten by screens way too much), doesn't generate turnovers, and is a lousy rebounder for a guy his size.

Draymond is one of the best defensive players in the league and his ability to play above his height is a tremendous asset to his team.  
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:lmao:

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Funny how people in this thread are trying to act like they have basketball IQ comparing Michael Jordan to a current day Demar Derozan and Andrew Wiggins.  Jordan was first team all defense and both Wiggins and Derozan are among the worst defenders in the league in regards to efficiency.   The closest thing that there is in the league to Michael Jordan right now is Kawhi Leonard. In the year Michael Jordan was out 1993-94--Pippen averaged 22-8.7rebs-5.6a-nearly 3 steals per game--which would probably put him closer to a guy like Paul George today. Rodman would be like a far more defensive version of Tristan Thompson today. Would not need many or any plays diagramed for him--but would be a beast on the boards--and many of his points would come off of the offensive glass. 
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Kind of like guys trying to throw 25 years of playing competitive basketball as their qualification when they didn't even make the high school team.  Right Skip?

 
Niles Standish said:
The zone defense rules back then meant you couldn't double cover a guy who didn't have the ball.  Meaning Jordan was able to make his move before he could get doubled.  Sure a big guy was usually camped out under the basket.  But seriously watch the highlights.  I think that's probably a lot of the reason that teams were scoring around 110 ppg during Jordan's prime.  They're starting to do it again now, but average points were a lot higher during Jordan's career than in the Duncan/Kobe/LeBron era.
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Maybe Jordan just raised the average that much...

 
Niles Standish said:
The zone defense rules back then meant you couldn't double cover a guy who didn't have the ball.  Meaning Jordan was able to make his move before he could get doubled.  Sure a big guy was usually camped out under the basket.  But seriously watch the highlights.  I think that's probably a lot of the reason that teams were scoring around 110 ppg during Jordan's prime.  They're starting to do it again now, but average points were a lot higher during Jordan's career than in the Duncan/Kobe/LeBron era.
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No.  You couldn't camp.  You had to be within a zone of your player or doubling (the front court was divided  into 8 zones) no in between.  Now you can camp at the block but outside of the lane defensively.  

 
if you put the 70 bucks up against the dubs lew alcinder would guard lock down stef curry and make him look like a punk yeah good luck shooting over that great wall of milwaukee and then they would put old the big o on kevin durant and he would probably have about 15 steals a half from that gangly slow poke and then bam just when you think its dramond time jonny mcglocklin comes out firing threes from half court over him and the first time he gets crotchkicky bobby dandridge goes all norfolk state on him and ties him in to a pretzel and i mean an actual pretzel so hey debate away but after what i just wrote i think its over take that to the bank brohans 

 
SWC said:
if you put the 70 bucks up against the dubs lew alcinder would guard lock down stef curry and make him look like a punk yeah good luck shooting over that great wall of milwaukee and then they would put old the big o on kevin durant and he would probably have about 15 steals a half from that gangly slow poke and then bam just when you think its dramond time jonny mcglocklin comes out firing threes from half court over him and the first time he gets crotchkicky bobby dandridge goes all norfolk state on him and ties him in to a pretzel and i mean an actual pretzel so hey debate away but after what i just wrote i think its over take that to the bank brohans 
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Warriors had problems with the 2nd GOAT last year, only makes sense the GOAT would give them trouble too.

 
Niles Standish said:
Jordan played most of his career in an era where a whole lot more points were scored.  Probably because with the old illegal defense rules you almost couldn't double-team a player.  If you watch some Jordan highlights you'll see he is single covered pretty much all of the time.  
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This is about as wrong as wrong gets.  

You are misinterpreting your wikipedia lesson (you obviously never watched it) on illegal defense in the 90s.  You couldn't leave your man and float in the key.  In this way, Zone was illegal (they still zone trapped), which made help/team defense harder.  It did nothing to prevent double teams. At all.

Probably nobody in the history of the league double teamed more.. perhaps Wilt/Shaq? Easily for non centers.

Highlights are what you argue with? OK. Highlights.

Instead of highlights.. analysis?  Analysis.

 
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matuski said:
This is about as wrong as wrong gets.  

You are misinterpreting your wikipedia lesson (you obviously never watched it) on illegal defense in the 90s.  You couldn't leave your man and float in the key.  In this way, Zone was illegal (they still zone trapped), which made help/team defense harder.  It did nothing to prevent double teams. At all.

Probably nobody in the history of the league double teamed more.. perhaps Wilt/Shaq?

Highlights are what you argue with? OK. Highlights.

Instead of highlights.. analysis?  Analysis.
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I forgot how good he was.

 
matuski said:
This is about as wrong as wrong gets.  

You are misinterpreting your wikipedia lesson (you obviously never watched it) on illegal defense in the 90s.  You couldn't leave your man and float in the key.  In this way, Zone was illegal (they still zone trapped), which made help/team defense harder.  It did nothing to prevent double teams. At all.

Probably nobody in the history of the league double teamed more.. perhaps Wilt/Shaq? Easily for non centers.

Highlights are what you argue with? OK. Highlights.

Instead of highlights.. analysis?  Analysis.
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The rules in the 90's forced those double teams to come from farther away.  You could space teams without having actual floor spacers.  The Tony Allen treatment was illegal.  We have pretty much the same rules for u16 and below here.  Removes defensive tactics and benefits less skilled offensive teams.

 
This new generation of swimmers are coddled with their nutritionists and masseuses and specialization and the new rules about turns and such. I bet Mark Spitz could swim faster than any of them.

 
Short Corner said:
SWC said:
if you put the 70 bucks up against the dubs lew alcinder would guard lock down stef curry and make him look like a punk yeah good luck shooting over that great wall of milwaukee and then they would put old the big o on kevin durant and he would probably have about 15 steals a half from that gangly slow poke and then bam just when you think its dramond time jonny mcglocklin comes out firing threes from half court over him and the first time he gets crotchkicky bobby dandridge goes all norfolk state on him and ties him in to a pretzel and i mean an actual pretzel so hey debate away but after what i just wrote i think its over take that to the bank brohans 
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Warriors had problems with the 2nd GOAT last year, only makes sense the GOAT would give them trouble too.
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damn straight aint no one better than ole johnny mcglocklin take that to the bank brohan

 
SWC said:
if you put the 70 bucks up against the dubs lew alcinder would guard lock down stef curry and make him look like a punk yeah good luck shooting over that great wall of milwaukee and then they would put old the big o on kevin durant and he would probably have about 15 steals a half from that gangly slow poke and then bam just when you think its dramond time jonny mcglocklin comes out firing threes from half court over him and the first time he gets crotchkicky bobby dandridge goes all norfolk state on him and ties him in to a pretzel and i mean an actual pretzel so hey debate away but after what i just wrote i think its over take that to the bank brohans 
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Do not forget the force that was Wali the Wonder Jones rocking that jackknife jumper.

 
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muhammed ali in his prime would beat the literal hell out of draymond the nutkicker green take that to the bank bromigos 

 
matuski said:
This is about as wrong as wrong gets.  

You are misinterpreting your wikipedia lesson (you obviously never watched it) on illegal defense in the 90s.  You couldn't leave your man and float in the key.  In this way, Zone was illegal (they still zone trapped), which made help/team defense harder.  It did nothing to prevent double teams. At all.

Probably nobody in the history of the league double teamed more.. perhaps Wilt/Shaq? Easily for non centers.

Highlights are what you argue with? OK. Highlights.

Instead of highlights.. analysis?  Analysis.
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Your highlights are ridiculous.  They are named Michael Jordan scoring against double teams.  The guy played a long time of course he scored sometimes against double-teams.  Watch career highlights of Jordan.  You'll see what I'm saying.  Next you'll tell me Manute Bol was a great 3 point shooter and show this as proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSfBRAIT4eg

 
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jvdesigns2002 said:
Oh wow--so now you are a fan of advanced stats?  Advanced stats from fivethirtyeight (one of the most respected sources of advanced stats) used advanced stats to establish that the 95-96 Bulls are the best of all time--followed by the 96-97 Bulls in second place.  Also--you know how Jordan and Pippen were both on the all defensive teams that late in their careers? It's because they were elite althletes that took pride in being dominant on both sides of the court.  In any case--we'll just have to agree  to disagree on this particular topic.  

http://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/the-7-best-nba-teams-of-all-time.html/?a=viewall
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538 is a joke.  No successful "model" should consistently be that far off from the efficient betting markets.  If there was any remaining uncertainty they aren't a joke, look at their Eastern Conference predictions this year (like Short Corner mentioned)

 
Niles Standish said:
Your highlights are ridiculous.  They are named Michael Jordan scoring against double teams.  The guy played a long time of course he scored sometimes against double-teams.  Watch career highlights of Jordan.  You'll see what I'm saying.  Next you'll tell me Manute Bol was a great 3 point shooter and show this as proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSfBRAIT4eg
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Did you read the analysis?

Do a little research and you will quickly see a consensus that Jordan is the most double teamed non big man ever.

Me needing to say that tells me you didnt see him play. Was pretty much the default strategy for guarding him.

 
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Niles Standish said:
Your highlights are ridiculous.  They are named Michael Jordan scoring against double teams.  The guy played a long time of course he scored sometimes against double-teams.  Watch career highlights of Jordan.  You'll see what I'm saying.  Next you'll tell me Manute Bol was a great 3 point shooter and show this as proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSfBRAIT4eg
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Manute Bol was a great three point shooter for his era. 

 
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