Julius Jones (1 Viewer)

[Kit Fisto]

I got ripped a few weeks back because I traded Julius for Hines Ward in a PPR dynasty league. It's a bit too early to gloat, but I'm definitely not feeling bad about the move. I like Julius, but I think people got a bit carried away with him. This happens all the time with young backs.

For every Tomlinson and Alexander there are a handful of washouts and disappointments like William Green, TJ Duckett, and Michael Bennett. We're seeing some of that this year with Julius Jones, Kevin Jones, and maybe even Tatum Bell (he's playing well, but he's not starting). I still think some of these guys have bright futures, but it remains true that people (myself included) were too quick to annoint these guys as superstars. It always happens with young players. People see a few good plays and assume that it will become a trend. Sometimes it does. Most of the time it doesn't.

Please keep this in mind come draft time next year. If I recall correctly, guys on this board were falling all over themselves, declaring 2005 the best RB class in history and there would be at least 8 stars from this group.All I could do was

And this one... "People see a few good plays and assume that it will become a trend." Please keep this one in mind while we're discussing Samkon Gado, Ron Dayne, JJ Arrington, Willie Parker and the like.

 

[CowboyFan]

I thought he blew blitz pickup on several plays. Laying down a block is only part of the equation, recognition is the biggest part. Bledsoe's int was a bonehead play on his part, but MB should have picked up that stunt.

BS. Even ESPN broke down this play and Witten was the *obvious* hot read if his man blitzed and needed to be picked up by MB. MB was definitely not supposed to be looking for a ball when he's on blitz patrol, and Bledsoe was to throw the ball to a hot read, not Barber. Frankly I think Bledose was trying to throw that one away.

Where did I say MB was supposed to catch anything?

 

[Power Monster]

Average back or not the bottom line here is with both these guys splitting carries it is not going to get anyone to a championship game unless they have EXTREME firepower. Thi is pure frustration for a team like mine that is looking at the playoffs but is slipping fast. I own them both and I cannot put either guy in. Thank goodness for LJ and Gado and Gado might not be the answer. Although Parcells is doing the right thing for his team it is just poison for the fantasy owner....

 

[chihawk]

I am a Barber owner, and after almost fumbling away the game last night I have to believe JJ gets back his role as the main RB....as long as he's healthy.

 

[BigJim®]

I thought he blew blitz pickup on several plays. Laying down a block is only part of the equation, recognition is the biggest part. Bledsoe's int was a bonehead play on his part, but MB should have picked up that stunt.

BS. Even ESPN broke down this play and Witten was the *obvious* hot read if his man blitzed and needed to be picked up by MB. MB was definitely not supposed to be looking for a ball when he's on blitz patrol, and Bledsoe was to throw the ball to a hot read, not Barber. Frankly I think Bledose was trying to throw that one away.

Where did I say MB was supposed to catch anything?

Sorry, I misread your post. Fixed. However, I believe Barber picked up Witten's defender when he did a corner blitz so if that is the play you are talking about I'm not sure how he at the same time could have picked up a stunt. He and the guy he were blocking were 20 feet from Bledsoe and Witten was on that side totally uncovered. It's a hot read miss by Bledsoe, nothing more. I also disagree that Barber missed "several" blitz pick ups. He was very solid blocking last night all around. It's the fumble that's going to cost him PT. That was brutal.

 

[(HULK)]

Barber picked up the wrong defender, Bledsoe got hurried and threw a pick.Barber fumbled at a very critical point in the game.I think JJ starts next week.

 

[(HULK)]

I thought he blew blitz pickup on several plays.  Laying down a block is only part of the equation, recognition is the biggest part.  Bledsoe's int was a bonehead play on his part, but MB should have picked up that stunt.

BS. Even ESPN broke down this play and Witten was the *obvious* hot read if his man blitzed and needed to be picked up by MB. MB was definitely not supposed to be looking for a ball when he's on blitz patrol, and Bledsoe was to throw the ball to a hot read, not Barber. Frankly I think Bledose was trying to throw that one away.

Where did I say MB was supposed to catch anything?

Sorry, I misread your post. Fixed. However, I believe Barber picked up Witten's defender when he did a corner blitz so if that is the play you are talking about I'm not sure how he at the same time could have picked up a stunt. He and the guy he were blocking were 20 feet from Bledsoe and Witten was on that side totally uncovered. It's a hot read miss by Bledsoe, nothing more. I also disagree that Barber missed "several" blitz pick ups. He was very solid blocking last night all around. It's the fumble that's going to cost him PT. That was brutal.

I believe he's talking about the play where Bledsoe threw it like 5 feet only, and it was picked.Barber went outside to block while a man ran through right where Barber had been standing and got to Bledsoe. Thats blown blitz pickup if I've ever seen it, and it was Barber's responsibility.

 

[BigJim®]

Barber picked up the wrong defender, Bledsoe got hurried and threw a pick.

Barber fumbled at a very critical point in the game.

I think JJ starts next week.

Sounds like a JJ owner painting a picture to me. Like I said, ESPN broke down this play and this was a corner blitz by Witten's defender that was properly picked up by MB3, and Bledsoe should have immediately thrown to his hot read which is Witten. Instead, he held the ball and an additional LB blitzing up the middle caught him. MB3 did not pick up the wrong blitz, Bledsoe didn't thow immediately to his hot read as he should have, perhaps because MB3 picked up that blitz so well.

 

[warrior69]

Lets not forget the Barber is a rookie and JJ is a second year guy,i think parcells just wanted to ease JJ back to contact and he will take over the starting job full time and barber will be the 3rd down back the rest of the season.

 

[(HULK)]

Lets not forget the Barber is a rookie and JJ is a second year guy,i think parcells just wanted to ease JJ back to contact and he will take over the starting job full time and barber will be the 3rd down back the rest of the season.

I can very much see Barber in the 3rd down back role. Simply because he has superior hands.

 

[FFdork]

Hasn't Parcells always been a workhorse RB kind of guy? I don't think he likes RBBC at all. I think he had a guy (Barber) who played well in Jones's absence and another guy (Jones) who he's trying to send a message to. Maybe, as a psychologist, I'm looking too deep, but I really believe everything Parcells has said and done about the RB situation in the last few weeks, including giving MBIII the start last night, was designed to light a fire under JJ's ####.However, JJ didn't make some plays when he got the opportunities (although I agree with others that he wasn't really put in a situation to succeed). If Barber hadn't fumbled at the end, I would be assuming he (Barber) would be named "starter" for week 11.RBBC isn't going to do the Cowboys or fantasy owners much good. I think, given Parcells history, he wants to find one guy he can give 20+ carries. Unfortunately, I don't think he really trusts either of them to be that guy right now. As someone who owns both, I hope we can get some inside info before next Sunday.

 

[warrior69]

Lets not forget JJ has been injured(ankle this time not a shoulder)and was basicaly testing it against the very team that hurt him to begin with.

 

[Not Really Mel Kiper]

Let me see if I understand. You all want to try to take out barbers run from his statistics? Last time I checked you couldn't do that......but I can play your game. We will take JJ's longest run out of his stats......He now went 7carries for 8 yards......a nice 1.14 yards per carry average. Go home JJ owners

 

[Garts]

Let me see if I understand. You all want to try to take out barbers run from his statistics? Last time I checked you couldn't do that......but I can play your game. We will take JJ's longest run out of his stats......He now went 7carries for 8 yards......a nice 1.14 yards per carry average. Go home JJ owners

No doubt....Once again I say, JJ is/has done nothing to back up his top 10-15 RB status annointed to him. He lacks the finish other top backs have and for a speed back, hasn't come close to breaking anything at all. I a still waiting. tick...tick...tick.

 

[Not Really Mel Kiper]

JJ owner wants to take away good things MBIII did last night so they can make excuses for JJ. Bottom line: MBIII Started the game, MBIII Finished the game, MBIII had a TD, MBIII Had more rushes, and MBIII had more rushing yards. I don't care how "Hard" JJ was running or you thought he was running. MBIII out performed him.

 

[CowboyFan]

Barber picked up the wrong defender, Bledsoe got hurried and threw a pick.

Barber fumbled at a very critical point in the game.

I think JJ starts next week.

Sounds like a JJ owner painting a picture to me. Like I said, ESPN broke down this play and this was a corner blitz by Witten's defender that was properly picked up by MB3, and Bledsoe should have immediately thrown to his hot read which is Witten. Instead, he held the ball and an additional LB blitzing up the middle caught him. MB3 did not pick up the wrong blitz, Bledsoe didn't thow immediately to his hot read as he should have, perhaps because MB3 picked up that blitz so well.

please take the fantasy spin out of this. Barber blocked out on the DE, doubling him and letting the LB rush from the DE position, NOT the middle. If it were a delayed stunt, that may have been the right move, but not on that play.Both JJ and MB did not look good running last night. The line was overwhelmed and did not provide any room to run. Right now I would say JJ is a better runner and MB is a better receiving back, but he needs to improve blitz recognition.

JJ is a good rb, but not exceptional enough the way the line is blocking. I would say Fred Taylor is the only rb in the league that could create his own runs out of the current Dallas blocking. I'm sure LT lovers will chime in, but he cannot create in the trenches the way Taylor can (or Sanders could).

 

[Garts]

JJ owner wants to take away good things MBIII did last night so they can make excuses for JJ. Bottom line: MBIII Started the game, MBIII Finished the game, MBIII had a TD, MBIII Had more rushes, and MBIII had more rushing yards. I don't care how "Hard" JJ was running or you thought he was running. MBIII out performed him.

I USED to own JJ, but got tired of making excuses and saw Barber performing at a higher level.

 

[botabu]

JJ owner wants to take away good things MBIII did last night so they can make excuses for JJ. Bottom line: MBIII Started the game, MBIII Finished the game, MBIII had a TD, MBIII Had more rushes, and MBIII had more rushing yards. I don't care how "Hard" JJ was running or you thought he was running. MBIII out performed him.

Hmm.... and Julius did not fall down at the 2 yard line with a hole the size of Arizona in front of him, and Julius did not miss several blitz pickups, and Julius did not fumble the ball almost giving the game away....Point is, they both stunk last night. RBBC will not benefit Dallas's offense scheme. Also, Julius Jones has proven A LOT more in his career then Marion Barber has. I personally like Jones running style and mindset better than Barber's. Barber has only perfromed well against weak defenses. JJ jas proven to be at least a RB that can perform when the pressure is on. Don't forget HOW much Parcells ran him in the beginning of the year...... too much, a la Caddy/Gruden.

Jones needs to get his rhythm back, and you can't get it in practice or with 8 carries.

 

[botabu]

JJ owner wants to take away good things MBIII did last night so they can make excuses for JJ. Bottom line: MBIII Started the game, MBIII Finished the game, MBIII had a TD, MBIII Had more rushes, and MBIII had more rushing yards. I don't care how "Hard" JJ was running or you thought he was running. MBIII out performed him.

I USED to own JJ, but got tired of making excuses and saw Barber performing at a higher level.

In 3 in a half games? Jeez.....

 

[the Kid]

Considering their next two games are four days apart, I would expect a healthy mix of both JJ and MBIII.

I think this is also an extremely important point to take into consideration. I am an Jones and Barber owner and don't see either one getting more than 15-20 touches in either of the next two games. I think Jones is the more talented runner and that Parcells wants him to be the guy, he just either doesn't want to rush him back or feels he is injury prone. Combine this with the fact that Barber is also quite good and he has the luxury of bringing Jones back slowly. I see them splitting series in the next two games with Barber being the goal line back and 3rd down back, however I just think Jones is going to be the guy to have for the fantasy playoffs.

 

[Synthesizer]

Let me see if I understand. You all want to try to take out barbers run from his statistics? Last time I checked you couldn't do that......but I can play your game. We will take JJ's longest run out of his stats......He now went 7carries for 8 yards......a nice 1.14 yards per carry average. Go home JJ owners

Who wants to take away Barber's long run last night? I think what people are saying is that Barber made 1 good play last night while JJ made 0 good plays. But if you just look at the final rushing numbers (43 yds vs 16 yds) you might have drawn a different conclusion.Plus throw in the mistakes that Barber made (fumble, possible missed assignment, terrible run on 2nd and goal) and it's the Barber owners who should be going home.

 

[Garts]

JJ owner wants to take away good things MBIII did last night so they can make excuses for JJ. Bottom line: MBIII Started the game, MBIII Finished the game, MBIII had a TD, MBIII Had more rushes, and MBIII had more rushing yards. I don't care how "Hard" JJ was running or you thought he was running. MBIII out performed him.

I USED to own JJ, but got tired of making excuses and saw Barber performing at a higher level.

In 3 in a half games? Jeez.....

Yes. I don't see the talent in this guy. 120 carries is all I needed. Traded him while his value was stil high.

 

[Judge Smails]

The 2nd down run from the 2 was as bad a run as any I've seen all year. He had the whole side wide open and fell down.

OK, the spin police need to be called. My God, the dude saw the hole, tried to make a cut to the hole and his feet went out from under him on a slick surface (several players had the same thing happened during the game). To say that was as bad a run as any all year is just asinine.I own Barber. My take. Jury is still out. JJ will obviously get his opportunities over the next game or two, and if he delivers the job is probably his. Barber did not help himself with that last fumble. Though it's amazing how coaches are a lot more forgiving on fumbles when it doesn't result in a turnover. Barber wasn't perfect, though I was impressed with his pass blocking. With Adams out, the need to protect Bledsoe is paramount. JJ looks faster, Barber looks stronger. A lot will depend on the matchup. It smells of RBBC to me, and the hot back will get the carries.

 

[bumpman]

You guys should save your energy. Nothing got resolved last night.

 

[BigJim®]

please take the fantasy spin out of this. Barber blocked out on the DE, doubling him and letting the LB rush from the DE position, NOT the middle. If it were a delayed stunt, that may have been the right move, but not on that play.

What fantasy spin? I started neither of these guys last night and as I've said repeatedly MB3 owners should absolutely be worried about the fumbling... I would be; that was horrible.What we are talking about is this particular play, and the suggestion that MB3 did not pick up a blitz. I just think you are way out in left field saying that Barber was double teaming a DE when the defender he was engaged with (Lito Shepperd) made the interception. As I've said several times, and as ESPN broke down, Witten's defender (Shepperd) came off the corner and left Witten uncovered, and that blitz was picked up by Barber as it should have been. The fact that they also blitzed Trotter on a delay is totally irrelevant; Barber cannot pick up a corner Blitz and a delay blitz. If a DE was being blocked in that vicinity as you are alleging, that DE was in addition to Shepperd and was either blocked by Polite (my guess, since he tackled Shepperd 5 yards after the interception) or by the tackle, but that again is irrelevant and you are clearly wrong that Barber was engaged with a DE. Here is the play:

(2:59) D.Bledsoe pass intended for M.Barber INTERCEPTED by L.Sheppard at DAL 24. L.Sheppard to DAL 19 for 5 yards (L.Polite). Eagles #54 Trotter applies pressure on QB Bledsoe.

Go watch sport center for crying out loud; I'm sure it's on another 13-14 times today with this specific play being broken down by Salisbury.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

I think you're going to see what we saw in the 2nd half last night. Julius in on 1st and 2nd down, and MB as the third down (& 2 minute drill)back. Though I think that Julius ends up getting the clock killing carries in the future, since MB picked a really inopportune time to fumble last night.

 

[Cowboys#1]

we'll revisit this thread in a month and see where these guys aremy guess.. JJ getting the bulk.. mel kiper and garts crying in the corner that there boy MBIII didnt do more with his shot.now, as a Cowboy fan i REALLY REALLY dont care who gets the yards and tds, as long as someone is doing it. but really, i think you have to be crazy to think barber did so many good things last night that he would be the starter in Dallas the rest of the way.

 

[BigJim®]

I think you're going to see what we saw in the 2nd half last night. Julius in on 1st and 2nd down, and MB as the third down (& 2 minute drill)back. Though I think that Julius ends up getting the clock killing carries in the future, since MB picked a really inopportune time to fumble last night.

MB3 lucked out last night. I would not give a ball to MB3 in that situation until I'm very, very sure he understands that gaining yards is irrelevant compared to securing a win. Making a 1st down in that situation is gravy.

 

[BigJim®]

now, as a Cowboy fan i REALLY REALLY dont care who gets the yards and tds, as long as someone is doing it. but really, i think you have to be crazy to think barbereither Barber or JJ did so many good things last night that he would be the starter in Dallas the rest of the way.

Fixed

 

[Iron_Far]

Another note to add was it took three tries for Barber starting from the 5yrd line to get that TD...

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Another note to add was it took three tries for Barber starting from the 5yrd line to get that TD...

That's not all that unusual, unless you're talking about LT or SA.

 

[-OZ-]

Another note to add was it took three tries for Barber starting from the 5yrd line to get that TD...

That's not all that unusual, unless you're talking about LT or SA.

or PRIESTBut I agree, GL Defenses aren't pushovers usually. Remember Edge last year?

 

[Bob Magaw]

there is some uncertainty associated with the DAL ground game...it is important to separate the different kinds of uncertainty out, so they can be individually weighed & maybe variably accounted for in terms of liklihood & risk percentage...1) jones isn't as talented... or a variation, he might not be... imo, barber looks good, but i find jones at least as talented and perhaps more so... they both have strengths & weaknesses which can be outlined below... the readers digest version is jones appears to me to be more elusive, & barber more powerful.2) jones isn't 100% recovered from high ankle sprain.this is clearly a separate issue from jones talent... & it might make sense if parcell's has more than one solid RB, to use the fresh one more to allow injured one to recover better. deuce came back too early last season (?), after just one or two games out & was just a shell of his usual self for most of the rest of the season. true, curtis martin is a freak who could be hobbled like james caan in misery & still crawl to 1,000 yards... but most humanoid life forms can't do what an NFL RB needs to do & play with a high level of effectiveness on a high ankle sprain... in some cases for weeks later. i fell 10 feet on the side of one foot one time in the middle of a HS basketball season (i wasn't dunking )... the ankle was still jacked up 4-6 weeks later... it would have been better if i had broken it... the bone would have healed within approx 6 weeks... sprained & torn ligaments & tendons & damaged tissue can take longer to recover than broken bones... but i digress... it is possible he isn't 100%... this may cause others to say this is an issue with his recovery time, but i am not sure...3) this is critical stretch of season with 3 games played in 11 days, & the next 2 games in a span of five days... for reasons related to above point/issue, JJ may still be recuperating & he has capable second runner, he parcells may have been both easing JJ back into lineup & conserving jones (& barber) by distributing the load over upcoming brutal stretch.probably after this stretch is up, & if jones doesn't re-injure the ankle or continues to be slow to recover (in which case all bets are off about how the rotation shakes out), we will have a better read on the important question... how PARCELLS views their respective abilities & skill sets.EBF had some interesting comp players, but there may be important differences... i agree with what he says in general... it is a numbers game & there is a lot of attrition at the position... guys we thought would do well don't (& converse like priest... but those instances don't seem to happen as often... unexpected guys fluorishing as opposed to highly regarded prospects underwhelming)... but specifically with some of RBs cited...william green... green is maybe stronger, & that is about it... he would suffer in comparison with JJs speed (at 100% he is legit 4.4 guy, & was one of fastest RBs at 2004 combine along with tatum bell)... green is ponderous in the open field, & based on what i saw last season at least (maybe the cowboys run blocking was more consistent & effective last season?), JJ is far more elusive.tj duckett - definitely bigger & pretty fast in straightline fashion... imo he could possibly thrive in a downhill, power running attack like PIT or CAR (though he doesn't appear to have as nifty a feet as bettis or davis), but in most systems, he might be a liability as an everydown, feature RB... he has little to no open field elusivenss... this is one of jones strong suits.bennett - clearly the fastest of group... has run sub-10 second 100 m & may be one of fastest sprinters in the world at that distance... don't have to qualify by saying among football players... but he does seem to be missing the instincts & aforementioned open field elusiveness that seems to be a recurring theme & common denominator with this set of underwhelming or flawed runners.JJ may have some concerns associated with his durability, & for an NFL RB & especially a parcells RB, that can't be brushed off or casually dismissed. but based on what i have seen, in his limited but impressive (to me, when healthy) body of work, i am confident that... if he can answer questions about his durability... he won't fail for lack of elusiveness or open field running ability.also, if they can elevate their run blocking, & if JJ is given the chance to shine (i realize that this very part is what is open to question & a subject with divided opinions), imo he has the ability to create separation from barber...this is not a slight of barber, who i think could emerge with a third down & possible goal line role (if he doesn't overtake JJ for the feature RB role)... & who i lke as well... it is more a testament to how i view jones.

 

[Construction Man Jim]

MBIII - 75 rushes for 299 yards, 4.0 average, 3 TD, 3 fumbles (0 lost).JJ - 120 rushes for 423 yards, 3.5 average, 3 TD, 1 fumble (1 lost).As a MBIII owner I'm just happy this discussion is still going on... I have been pleasantly surprised by the fact that JJ (a consensus late first/ early second round pick) has failed to: distinguish himself from/ beat out a 4th round pick AND lock down/ reclaim "his" job... And considering I picked MBIII up off waivers the week before his big game anything I get out of him (he's my RB4) at thispoint - including Monday night's perforemance - is gravy.

 

[botabu]

MBIII - 75 rushes for 299 yards, 4.0 average, 3 TD, 3 fumbles (0 lost).

JJ - 120 rushes for 423 yards, 3.5 average, 3 TD, 1 fumble (1 lost).

As a MBIII owner I'm just happy this discussion is still going on... I have been pleasantly surprised by the fact that JJ (a consensus late first/ early second round pick) has failed to: distinguish himself from/ beat out a 4th round pick AND lock down/ reclaim "his" job...

And considering I picked MBIII up off waivers the week before his big game anything I get out of him (he's my RB4) at thispoint - including Monday night's perforemance - is gravy.

Those stats mean nothing..... Jones has run against MUCH better defenses, while Barber has run against some seriosly ####ty ones.... come one ARIZONA? Please. Lets compare when they have an equal amount of games played.You are a moron. How can ANY player distinguish himself, and lock up a job when they are injured and only getting 8 carries in his return game?

Seriously.... this will all shake out soon enough, and my gut tells me that Jones will be t he primary back. If I am wrong, oh well..... I have been before, and I will be again.

 

[gpp]

JJ owners love to spin Barbers stats. None of that really matters.JJ can't stay healthy anyway. Couldn't in college. Couldn't in the NFL. Everyone clearly knows that except JJ owners. Bottom line is the cowboys will never rely on JJ again to carry the load. They're going to bring in RBs, draft RBs, give backups chances. It's clear you can't count on JJ to be the man. And by everything Pacells has said, JJ's a nice kid, works hard, all that basically means is, you're a nice kid but you're not fit to be a #1 RB in this league when you spend 50% of the time on the sidelines. Ignoring the past 5-6 years of his football life, thinking he's going to put it all together and be a stud RB in this league, you're fooling yourself.

 

[Not Really Mel Kiper]

I would like to see JJ supporters actually bring something to the table besides "JJ is better" or "MBIII played weak D's"So, here is the challege for JJ owner/supporter: Please give me statistical information that shows why JJ is better than MBIII, for the year, for last nights game. I don't want opinions/excuses, show me the numbers!!!!! I want Facts and not Opinions.

 

[Not Really Mel Kiper]

JJ owners with statistical backup, only JJ owners/supporters with opinions.

 

[botabu]

I would like to see JJ supporters actually bring something to the table besides "JJ is better" or "MBIII played weak D's"

So, here is the challege for JJ owner/supporter: Please give me statistical information that shows why JJ is better than MBIII, for the year, for last nights game. I don't want opinions/excuses, show me the numbers!!!!! I want Facts and not Opinions.

Can't do this until they play an equal number of games..... which I suggested a few times. If Barber is better after, so be it. I am an owner of neither..... but I do think Jones is a better player.Curtis Martin was the most injury prone individual in college (I went to Pitt at the same time).... he always had an injury and even missed the majority of his senior season. His initial NFL career was also filled with questions of his durability, and some inury concern. He was even "challenged" by another RB for his 1st 2 years..... (the name escapes me at the moment). Parcells said A LOT of the same things about Martin that he has been saying about Jones this season.

All that said, the jury is still out..... we shall see.

 

[botabu]

JJ owners with statistical backup, only JJ owners/supporters with opinions.

On the same token.... show me the stats over 11 games that Barber is better than JJ? You can't do it..... because Barber has not played that many yet. What you are suggesting about JJ owners you yourself are doing for MBIII.

 

[Not Really Mel Kiper]

I would like to see JJ supporters actually bring something to the table besides "JJ is better" or "MBIII played weak D's"

So, here is the challege for JJ owner/supporter: Please give me statistical information that shows why JJ is better than MBIII, for the year, for last nights game. I don't want opinions/excuses, show me the numbers!!!!! I want Facts and not Opinions.

Can't do this until they play an equal number of games..... which I suggested a few times. If Barber is better after, so be it. I am an owner of neither..... but I do think Jones is a better player.Curtis Martin was the most injury prone individual in college (I went to Pitt at the same time).... he always had an injury and even missed the majority of his senior season. His initial NFL career was also filled with questions of his durability, and some inury concern. He was even "challenged" by another RB for his 1st 2 years..... (the name escapes me at the moment). Parcells said A LOT of the same thinsg about Martin that he has been saying about Jones.

All that said, the jury is still out..... we shall see.

My point exactly ........... only opinionsIts funny because MBIII supporter brings stats to the table, JJ supporter brings opinion and trys to play the tallent card. You reference Curtis Martin, thats funny because he was a 3rd round pick I believe, I guess you can find tallent ANYWHERE in the draft.

You can't compare JJ last year to JJ this year. Different team, no MBIII. JJ this year to MBIII this year.

 

[Bob Magaw]

JJ owners love to spin Barbers stats. None of that really matters.

JJ can't stay healthy anyway. Couldn't in college. Couldn't in the NFL. Everyone clearly knows that except JJ owners. Bottom line is the cowboys will never rely on JJ again to carry the load. They're going to bring in RBs, draft RBs, give backups chances. It's clear you can't count on JJ to be the man.

And by everything Pacells has said, JJ's a nice kid, works hard, all that basically means is, you're a nice kid but you're not fit to be a #1 RB in this league when you spend 50% of the time on the sidelines.

Ignoring the past 5-6 years of his football life, thinking he's going to put it all together and be a stud RB in this league, you're fooling yourself.

weren't some of these things said about his brother, thomas jones, at a similar point in HIS career... many wrote off thomas after first 2-3 years... but he looks like he has what it takes to be an outstanding RB... he is banged up, but before that he was playing at a high enough level to merit pro bowl consideration.last year, julius looked like he might have more natural talent than his brother... certainly he accomplished more in a half season than thomas did in his first 2-3 years in the league, which some might construe as boding well for his future in the league.

as to the poster who was asking to be given "hard" evidence that JJ is better... first of all, i can't speak for others, but i don't have a vested interest in persuading anybody... that doesn't interest me much... in a thread like this, people on both sides of fence, & for those on the fence, there is information by which others might expand their thinking, change aspects of it, or not... depending on if they learned something they didn't know already, are open or closed minded, etc...

i'm certainly open to possibility barber could be better... i just havent seen with my own eyes reasons to persuade me of this. i'm not asking others to convince me otherwise... i'll make up my own mind based on the information presented to me & what i see with my own two eyes.

its obviously absurd to extract much relevant information about how this will shake out in future based on JJs first game back when he may still be recovering from ankle injury... & there may be good reason to complement him with a nasty 3 games in 11 days stretch of the scedule, etc...

i don't see too many JJ owners completely ignoring that barber could be a threat... most acknowledge it... but by the same token, barber advocates & proponents can't overlook that JJ might be getting fewer carries as he returns from month long absence, & could emerge with more carries if he proves his fitness to parcells.

i just try & lay out things as i see them, & people may do what they will with the information.

some aspects of the process are admittedly highly rooted in quantitative measures... others aren't.

if you can think of an easy or good way to express to you in a quantitative manner, why i think JJ is more elusive in the open field than barber, i would be happy to accomodate you... i just don't know how to do it.

 

[agent 86]

I would like to see JJ supporters actually bring something to the table besides "JJ is better" or "MBIII played weak D's"

So, here is the challege for JJ owner/supporter: Please give me statistical information that shows why JJ is better than MBIII, for the year, for last nights game. I don't want opinions/excuses, show me the numbers!!!!! I want Facts and not Opinions.

My goodness, Mel must be right. MBIII is three times the RB that JJ is. They played in the same game last night and MBIII had 30 more yards and a TD. Didn't you guys see that? Where was this brilliant fellow when we were all drafting? What could we have been thinking to not draft MBIII ahead of JJ back in August. The fact that JJ was #1 going into the season was all windowdressing. Those games he had last year were a mirage. Mel, you're the best.

 

[gpp]

JJ owners love to spin Barbers stats. None of that really matters.

JJ can't stay healthy anyway. Couldn't in college. Couldn't in the NFL. Everyone clearly knows that except JJ owners. Bottom line is the cowboys will never rely on JJ again to carry the load. They're going to bring in RBs, draft RBs, give backups chances. It's clear you can't count on JJ to be the man.

And by everything Pacells has said, JJ's a nice kid, works hard, all that basically means is, you're a nice kid but you're not fit to be a #1 RB in this league when you spend 50% of the time on the sidelines.

Ignoring the past 5-6 years of his football life, thinking he's going to put it all together and be a stud RB in this league, you're fooling yourself.

weren't some of these things said about his brother, thomas jones, at a similar point in HIS career... many wrote off thomas after first 2-3 years... but he looks like he has what it takes to be an outstnding RB... he is banged up, but before that he was playing at a high enough level to merit pro bowl consideration.last year, julius looked like he might have more natural talent than his brother... certainly he accomplished more in a half season than thomas did in his first 2-3 years in the league, which some might construe as boding well.

as to the poster who was asking to be given "hard" evidence that JJ is better... first of all, i can't speak for others, but i don't have a vested interest in persuading anybody... that doesn't interest me much... in a thread like this, people on both sides of fence, & for those on the fence, there is information by which others might expand their thinking, change aspects of it, or not... depending on if they learned something they didn't know already, are open or closed minded...

i'm certainly open to possibility barber could be better... i just havent seen with my own eyes reasons to persuade me of this.

i just try & lay out things as i see them, & people are to do with the information what they will.

some aspects of the process are admittedly highly rooted in quantitative measures... others aren't.

if you can think of an easy or good way to express to you in a quantitative manner, why i think JJ is more elusive in the open field than barber, i would be happy to accomodate you... i just don't know how to do it.

Good point, Thomas can't stay healthy either. That's why they drafted Benson.So now we agree, neither Jones can stay healthy, neither is going to ever be a guy who can play 14-15-16 games in a single year.

 

[botabu]

I would like to see JJ supporters actually bring something to the table besides "JJ is better" or "MBIII played weak D's"

So, here is the challege for JJ owner/supporter: Please give me statistical information that shows why JJ is better than MBIII, for the year, for last nights game. I don't want opinions/excuses, show me the numbers!!!!! I want Facts and not Opinions.

Can't do this until they play an equal number of games..... which I suggested a few times. If Barber is better after, so be it. I am an owner of neither..... but I do think Jones is a better player.Curtis Martin was the most injury prone individual in college (I went to Pitt at the same time).... he always had an injury and even missed the majority of his senior season. His initial NFL career was also filled with questions of his durability, and some inury concern. He was even "challenged" by another RB for his 1st 2 years..... (the name escapes me at the moment). Parcells said A LOT of the same thinsg about Martin that he has been saying about Jones.

All that said, the jury is still out..... we shall see.

My point exactly ........... only opinionsIts funny because MBIII supporter brings stats to the table, JJ supporter brings opinion and trys to play the tallent card. You reference Curtis Martin, thats funny because he was a 3rd round pick I believe, I guess you can find tallent ANYWHERE in the draft.

You can't compare JJ last year to JJ this year. Different team, no MBIII. JJ this year to MBIII this year.

What is your point? The stats for Marion Barber do not mean a thing against Julius's this year. But if you want stats for both of their first 3 games (starts) of their careers here they are:Julius Jones

Week 11 @ BALTIMORE : 81 yrds rushing

Week 12 vs. Chicago: 150 yrds rushing, 2TD

Week 13 @ Seattle: 198 yrds rushing, 3 TD

Total: 429 yrds rushing, 5 TD

Marion Barber III

Week 7 @ Seattle: 95 yrds rushing

Week 8 vs. Arizona: 127 yrds rushing, 2TD

Week 10 @ Philadelphia: 46 yrds rushing, 1TD

Total: 268 yrds rushing, 3 TD

Looks better so far for Julius to me...... but it is still not a fair comparrison. We will see after they START the same number of games.

 

[botabu]

"as Jeopardy music plays in the background."

 

[Bob Magaw]

JJ owners love to spin Barbers stats. None of that really matters.

JJ can't stay healthy anyway. Couldn't in college. Couldn't in the NFL. Everyone clearly knows that except JJ owners. Bottom line is the cowboys will never rely on JJ again to carry the load. They're going to bring in RBs, draft RBs, give backups chances. It's clear you can't count on JJ to be the man.

And by everything Pacells has said, JJ's a nice kid, works hard, all that basically means is, you're a nice kid but you're not fit to be a #1 RB in this league when you spend 50% of the time on the sidelines.

Ignoring the past 5-6 years of his football life, thinking he's going to put it all together and be a stud RB in this league, you're fooling yourself.

weren't some of these things said about his brother, thomas jones, at a similar point in HIS career... many wrote off thomas after first 2-3 years... but he looks like he has what it takes to be an outstnding RB... he is banged up, but before that he was playing at a high enough level to merit pro bowl consideration.last year, julius looked like he might have more natural talent than his brother... certainly he accomplished more in a half season than thomas did in his first 2-3 years in the league, which some might construe as boding well.

as to the poster who was asking to be given "hard" evidence that JJ is better... first of all, i can't speak for others, but i don't have a vested interest in persuading anybody... that doesn't interest me much... in a thread like this, people on both sides of fence, & for those on the fence, there is information by which others might expand their thinking, change aspects of it, or not... depending on if they learned something they didn't know already, are open or closed minded...

i'm certainly open to possibility barber could be better... i just havent seen with my own eyes reasons to persuade me of this.

i just try & lay out things as i see them, & people are to do with the information what they will.

some aspects of the process are admittedly highly rooted in quantitative measures... others aren't.

if you can think of an easy or good way to express to you in a quantitative manner, why i think JJ is more elusive in the open field than barber, i would be happy to accomodate you... i just don't know how to do it.

Good point, Thomas can't stay healthy either. That's why they drafted Benson.So now we agree, neither Jones can stay healthy, neither is going to ever be a guy who can play 14-15-16 games in a single year.

its not like there are 32 teams that have 32 starting RBs that get all the carries & are never injured even a single game in their career.certainly JJ & thomas don't need to necessarily remain injury free for the rest of their career... they just need to outplay barber & benson when they are healthy...

that would be good enough to keep their jobs.

lets say if thomas doesn't miss another game, leads bears to playoffs & makes pro bowl... are you disputing that it isn't somewhat of an open question if jones continues to play at the level he has, the bears might have a tough decision in 2006, & in fact he could play well enough to keep starting job.

clearly the bears underestimated how good a fit thomas jones could be in OC turner's offense... your being in denial of this just appears to make it look all the more likely you merely have an axe to grind.

curtis martin has been hurt before & didn't always return to play at high level... does that mean he is an ordinary RB who coaches were foolish for not having replaced several years ago... oh yeah, but it would be hard than to explain how martin won rushing title last season.

maybe steven jackson is a loser... he missed time last season & has been hurt at times this year... obviously we can extrapolate from this and have all the info we need to make a conclusive determination on how the rest of his career will unfold, & know with certainty he will never amount to anything.

 

[agent 86]

curtis martin has been hurt before & didn't always return to play at high level... does that mean he is an ordinary RB who coaches were foolish for not having replaced several years ago... oh yeah, but it would be hard than to explain how martin won rushing title last season.

Ironically, wasn't it Matin's health and durability that was knock on him coming out of Pitt? I remember he lasted until round 3 and several GM's saying that they weren't sure he was healthy.

 

[Ridgelake]

Cowboy "homer" here. I own neither back in a money league.Julius Jones: Parcells has indicated that he is the most elusive of the 3 backs on the roster. My eyes tell me that is the case as well. He has shown good power on occasions. He has done a decent job of not fumbling. He is decent in pass-protection. Parcells said that he needs to work on his route running to become a complete back.Marion Barber III: According to Parcells, Dallas was attracted to Barber because he has a complete game. He runs, he catches, he blocks. Parcells indicates that he is the best route runner of the 3 backs. It was envisioned that he could be a third down guy. If you saw last night's game, you could see that he is solid in pass protection. He is not, however, as good of a runner as JJ. He is not particularly elusive. He has power on occasions, knocking the defender back, but does not run through (m)any tackles. He showed a propensity to fumble in preseason, something that came damn close to costing Dallas the game yesterday.Last night, you saw Barber play the first 2 series, be the third down guy, then play the last series. JJ played the rest. Barber's TD came in the second series on his 3rd attempt from the 1 yard line. His long run (26 of his 46 yards) came while in the "nickle" offense.JJ is the better runner. Barber is the better pass catcher. They are both pretty good in pass protection, with perhaps a small edge to Barber here. Parcells has said as much. My eyes tell me the same thing. Going forward, I expect JJ to get the majority of carries with Barber being the 3rd down guy.

 

[mozzy84]

MBIII - 75 rushes for 299 yards, 4.0 average, 3 TD, 3 fumbles (0 lost).

JJ - 120 rushes for 423 yards, 3.5 average, 3 TD, 1 fumble (1 lost).

As a MBIII owner I'm just happy this discussion is still going on... I have been pleasantly surprised by the fact that JJ (a consensus late first/ early second round pick) has failed to: distinguish himself from/ beat out a 4th round pick AND lock down/ reclaim "his" job...

And considering I picked MBIII up off waivers the week before his big game anything I get out of him (he's my RB4) at thispoint - including Monday night's perforemance - is gravy.

Those stats mean nothing..... Jones has run against MUCH better defenses, while Barber has run against some seriosly ####ty ones.... come one ARIZONA? Please. Lets compare when they have an equal amount of games played.You are a moron. How can ANY player distinguish himself, and lock up a job when they are injured and only getting 8 carries in his return game?

Seriously.... this will all shake out soon enough, and my gut tells me that Jones will be t he primary back. If I am wrong, oh well..... I have been before, and I will be again.

then he will just get hurt again