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June 6, 1944 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DCThunder
- Start date
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
mr roboto
Footballguy
My grandfather's business partner was part of that first wave on Omaha. He only spoke of it a couple times.
He said the water was completely red. Like opaque red. They had to wade around and hop over bodies.
He made it through that and made it home. Was one of the most generous guys I ever knew. RIP Glen.
He said the water was completely red. Like opaque red. They had to wade around and hop over bodies.
He made it through that and made it home. Was one of the most generous guys I ever knew. RIP Glen.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The day does not seem to be celebrated like it once was.
belljr
Footballguy
My grandfather would only say he had beach clean up duty... I don't even want to know what that meant
Thank you to the greatest generation.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Obama a no-show on remembering this day, again?
NCCommish
Footballguy
Administrations, including W's, tend to only make a big deal on significant anniversaries. Obama did commemorate the 65th anniversary with a visit to Normandy and a speech. W went on the 60th anniversary to make a speech at Normandy as well. But he spent other years not commemorating.
Yeah, heaven knows, I'm no Obama supporter, but I'll give him a pass on this. If it were a round number like what's coming up in 2014 it'd be different.
Copeman
Footballguy
It's nice to show support and understanding etc...,of that day towards the vets themselves as much as possible, and as each year passes we lose more and more of them. We'll lose a few more hundred thousand vets by the time 2014 rolls around.
glock
"Don't grumble, give a whistle!"
:heavysigh:
NCCommish
Footballguy
I agree. But it think it's a little hypocritical to go after one admin when it is just doing what the rest of them did even the most recent.
Copeman
Footballguy
I agree, I wasn't even factoring that (politics) into my opinion. I think that day (and others like it) should be "remembered" each and every anniversary. I don't know if todays generation (American and allied alike) has much grasp on how lucky they really are.
NCCommish
Footballguy
THAT NOT WHY WERE HERE
G
Guest
Guest
G
Guest
Guest
Thanks for the suggestion. It is available on Netflix streaming.
beer 302
Footballguy
http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/06/12085346-remembering-the-lives-lost-on-d-day-anniversary?liteAlways chokes me up to see old vets walking in the cemeteries. I know the closing scene in Saving Private Ryan was Hollywood but I have to think they all have that feeling inside them.
We lose about 1,500 WWII vets everyday and that number is finally starting to decrease. Why? Because we are running out of veterans of that generation. Some of the youngest veterans still alive are in their very late 80's (87 year old pictured in above link would have been 19 on D-Day). Thank them while you can, 2014 will probably be the last significant celebration of D-Day because on the 75th celebration of the event in 2019 there won't be any vets left & if there are, they probably won't be able to make the trip :(
Anybody on Facebook that is interested I encourage you to look up and follow Jim "Pee Wee" Martin. Old paratrooper that made it through all the jumps and ran Currahee at the ripe old age of 87. Has a lot of fantastic pics and loves to correspond, very active member of the veteran community.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
My FIL turned 18 in January 1944 and fought at the Battle of the Bulge later that year.
At the risk of being skewered, this D-Day was but one of many D-Days participated in by our armed forces in WWII. We hardly celebrate the others at all. I think it's enough to hit the 5 & 10 year anniversaries for this one.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I was at a small airshow in my town over the weekend. There were a couple guys there that were bomber pilots, one of which flew on the Ploesti raids. I told then I appreciated what they did and you could tell it meant something to them.
Now that's a story.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
He said they flew so low that some of the bombers returned with corn stalks stuck in the bomb bay doors.
RBM
Footballguy
Thank you to the greatest generation.
Copeman
Footballguy
Sure all of the D-Days were important, but the D-Day on June 6th, 1944 was the most monumental and had the most significant impact on the course of the war. And again, these guys (and gals) are dying off fast, so I wouldn't mind having celebrations of some kind each year to honor them. I think thats the least we owe them.ETA: I mean for Gods sake, we "celebrate" Secretaries day and Valentines day every year, I think we can do this.
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17seconds
root of all aliai
That generation is 100X better than ours... damn
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I've talked with a lot of veterans and I'm pretty certain that they'd nix this idea with some sort of sentiment that other soldiers sacrificed just as much in other battles, so we're just fine remembering all the fallen on Memorial Day and all the living who served on Veterans day.
Copeman
Footballguy
I've heard many say similar things, and in the same breath I hear them state that they hope it is a day that is never forgotten, and hope the younger generations can be educated on the importance of it.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I suppose you're right. It's certainly one of the most important days ever.
NCCommish
Footballguy
It was make or break really. Would have been hard to re-cobble together the coalition. A failure here would have likely led to some kind of armistice with the Germans. In fact you could even argue this invasion planted the seeds for winning the Cold War 50 years later. It did so by not leaving an opportunity for the Soviets to take out the Germans and really get a grip on all of Europe.
beer 302
Footballguy
A lot of folks that have never served in the military (myself included) don't understand that every major operation has a D-Day. I always just thought it was the what they called the invasion of Normandy. It wasn't until I did some reading that I learned that's just military jargon for the kickoff of an operations. Kinda let the wind outta my sails
The 5 & 10 year celebrations for these events are monumental and more than enough. Consider that there are fewer & fewer actual vets that can make the trip anymore so it's mostly re-enactors and demonstration jumps. The celebrations & dedications are still special because as much as we like to bag on the French, they still appreciate everything the US did for them during this time. They treat vets like kings as well they should. We lost the last WWI vet a year or so ago, it is inevitable that we will lose all our WWII vets soon as well. More and more of the battlefields are being urbanized and lost. Time moves on.Indeed, I think I read Ploesti by James Durgan but can't recall now. Any of these would be great reads, incredible story.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I found this interesting and wanted to share since tomorrow will be 70 years
Editor's note: James Holland is a historian, writer and broadcaster, whose books include "Fortress Malta," "Battle of Britain," and "Dam Busters." He has written and presented BAFTA-shortlisted documentaries for the BBC and is currently working on a film about Normandy in 1944. A fellow of the Royal Historical Society, Holland is also co-founder of the Chalke Valley History Festival: several of his World War II interviews are available at griffonmerlin.com. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of James Holland.
(CNN) -- Anniversaries are useful moments to pause and reflect. For the 70th anniversary of D-Day and subsequent campaign in northern France, it is also an opportunity to look at the past in detail and ask how much of what we think we know is true and how much is well-entrenched myth. Not only is it more interesting, it is also of greater worth as we plan for the future and pray there will never be a conflict like World War II again.
Indeed, 31% of all U.S. supplies used during D-Day came directly from Britain, while two-thirds of the 12,000 aircraft involved were also British, as were two-thirds of those that landed in occupied France. Despite the initial slaughter at Omaha, casualties across the American and British beaches were much the same. This is not to belittle the U.S. effort but rather to add context and a wider, 360-degree view. History needs to teach as well as entertain.
2. MYTH: American forces were ill-prepared
REALITY: By the end of World War II the United States had the best armed services in the world. The 77-day Normandy campaign did much to help them reach this point.
Northern France was a showcase for American tactical and operational flexibility. At the start of the campaign, the Americans found themselves fighting through the Norman "bocage," an area of small fields lined with thick, raised hedgerows and narrow, sunken lanes. They hadn't trained for this; instead they expected that the Germans would quickly retreat after a successful Allied landing. For the Germans, the bocage offered cover and ambush opportunities for mortar teams and machine guns. Even the American 30-ton Sherman tanks couldn't get through these hedgerows. Then a U.S. sergeant came up with the ingenious solution of attaching a hedge-cutting tool built from German beach obstacles to the front of a Sherman. Gen. Omar Bradley, the U.S. First Army commander, was impressed; within a fortnight, the device had been fitted to 60% of all U.S. Shermans in Normandy.
This was but one example. During the campaign huge developments also were made in close air support, as well as in coordination between infantry, artillery and armor. Medical services advanced so much that one in four casualties returned to the battlefield after treatment, remarkable for 1944.
The dogged determination of the Germans to fight during D-Day is often confused with tactical skill. It shouldn't
James Holland
3. MYTH: The Allies became bogged down in Normandy
REALITY: In the pre-invasion estimates for the Normandy campaign, the Allies expected to be roughly 50 miles inland after 17 days, based on German retreats in North Africa and Italy. But Adolf Hitler ordered his forces to fight as close to the French coast as possible and not give an inch.
On paper it seemed that the Allies weren't making much progress, but in reality the German strategy worked to the Allies' advantage as they pounded the enemy with offshore naval guns. For by 1944 the Allies had realized that German tactics -- which dated back more than 100 years -- were rigidly predictable. Striking back once the enemy had overextended itself was central to German DNA throughout World War II. The Allies soon realized that this penchant for counterattack meant that the Germans would eventually move into the open and get hammered.
By the end of the Normandy campaign the Germans were hemorrhaging men and machines, with two armies all but destroyed. True, a handful of Germans did escape the attempted encirclement around Falaise, but it was still a massive Allied victory. In the rapid advance that followed, the Allies moved more quickly than Germans had in the opposite direction four years before, during the invasion of France.
4. MYTH: German soldiers were better trained than their Allied counterparts
REALITY: At the start of World War II the best German units were more than a match for their Allied opposition -- but by 1944 that had changed radically. There were a few exceptions, such as the Panzer Lehr, but come D-Day most German units were not as well trained as the Allies.
Some Allied units in Normandy had been preparing for four years for this campaign. In contrast, many German troops had had little more than a few weeks' notice. The German ad hoc battle groups known as kampfgruppen are traditionally regarded as showcasing tactical flexibility, but even these were borne of extreme shortages and desperation toward the end of the war.
The German paratroopers, or fallschirmjäger, were acknowledged to be among the best of their armed forces, yet one veteran I interviewed recalled how he had barely any training, save a few route marches and practice at laying mines. He never trained with a tank, had no transport and had to march 200 miles from Brittany when sent to the front. His case was not atypical: All infantry divisions in Normandy were expected to move by either foot or horse-drawn cart. The veteran I spoke to reached Saint-Lô, a major Normandy town, on June 12 with a company of 120 men. When he was captured on August 19 he was one of just nine men still standing.
The Germans had a doctrine during World War II called auftragstaktik -- best described as the ability to use one's initiative -- which has been hailed as what set their soldiers apart. But the paratrooper I spoke to knew nothing of it. By that stage of the war, German training was so skimpy that it was impossible to implement.
Even in Germany, the perception is still that D-Day was a largely American show
James Holland
5. MYTH: The Germans had stronger tactical skills
REALITY: The dogged determination of the Germans to fight during D-Day is often confused with tactical skill. It shouldn't. The best analogy is with more recent conflicts like Afghanistan or even Vietnam, when Western forces had the best training and kit yet struggled to defeat a massively inferior enemy. As the Taliban have shown, it is very difficult to completely defeat your enemy if they don't want to be defeated. The only way to do that is to kill them all.
This is why the Germans took so long to be defeated in Normandy and, subsequently, despite a lack of training, they were still a very dangerous and deadly enemy with plenty of powerful weapons and a fierce determination to keep fighting. This was for a number of reasons: Nazi indoctrination, a profound sense of duty and the threat of execution for deserters. In World War I the Germans executed 48 men for desertion; during World War II that figure rose to 30,000.
6. MYTH: America and Britain got off lightly in World War II
REALITY: Allied frontline troops suffered horrifically during World War II. Democracies such as Britain and America tried to achieve victory with as few casualties as possible. For the most part, they did this very successfully using technology and machinery to shield lives wherever they could.
However, short distances still had to be won by the infantry, tank units and artillery. Although technology meant the Allies needed fewer forces than a generation earlier, those in the firing line still pulled the very short straw. Losses to frontline troops were proportionally worse during the 77-day Normandy campaign than they were during the major battles along the Western Front during World War I.
D-Day veteran: I don't want them to be forgotten
Editor's note: James Holland is a historian, writer and broadcaster, whose books include "Fortress Malta," "Battle of Britain," and "Dam Busters." He has written and presented BAFTA-shortlisted documentaries for the BBC and is currently working on a film about Normandy in 1944. A fellow of the Royal Historical Society, Holland is also co-founder of the Chalke Valley History Festival: several of his World War II interviews are available at griffonmerlin.com. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of James Holland.
(CNN) -- Anniversaries are useful moments to pause and reflect. For the 70th anniversary of D-Day and subsequent campaign in northern France, it is also an opportunity to look at the past in detail and ask how much of what we think we know is true and how much is well-entrenched myth. Not only is it more interesting, it is also of greater worth as we plan for the future and pray there will never be a conflict like World War II again.
Indeed, 31% of all U.S. supplies used during D-Day came directly from Britain, while two-thirds of the 12,000 aircraft involved were also British, as were two-thirds of those that landed in occupied France. Despite the initial slaughter at Omaha, casualties across the American and British beaches were much the same. This is not to belittle the U.S. effort but rather to add context and a wider, 360-degree view. History needs to teach as well as entertain.
2. MYTH: American forces were ill-prepared
REALITY: By the end of World War II the United States had the best armed services in the world. The 77-day Normandy campaign did much to help them reach this point.
Northern France was a showcase for American tactical and operational flexibility. At the start of the campaign, the Americans found themselves fighting through the Norman "bocage," an area of small fields lined with thick, raised hedgerows and narrow, sunken lanes. They hadn't trained for this; instead they expected that the Germans would quickly retreat after a successful Allied landing. For the Germans, the bocage offered cover and ambush opportunities for mortar teams and machine guns. Even the American 30-ton Sherman tanks couldn't get through these hedgerows. Then a U.S. sergeant came up with the ingenious solution of attaching a hedge-cutting tool built from German beach obstacles to the front of a Sherman. Gen. Omar Bradley, the U.S. First Army commander, was impressed; within a fortnight, the device had been fitted to 60% of all U.S. Shermans in Normandy.
This was but one example. During the campaign huge developments also were made in close air support, as well as in coordination between infantry, artillery and armor. Medical services advanced so much that one in four casualties returned to the battlefield after treatment, remarkable for 1944.
The dogged determination of the Germans to fight during D-Day is often confused with tactical skill. It shouldn't
James Holland
3. MYTH: The Allies became bogged down in Normandy
REALITY: In the pre-invasion estimates for the Normandy campaign, the Allies expected to be roughly 50 miles inland after 17 days, based on German retreats in North Africa and Italy. But Adolf Hitler ordered his forces to fight as close to the French coast as possible and not give an inch.
On paper it seemed that the Allies weren't making much progress, but in reality the German strategy worked to the Allies' advantage as they pounded the enemy with offshore naval guns. For by 1944 the Allies had realized that German tactics -- which dated back more than 100 years -- were rigidly predictable. Striking back once the enemy had overextended itself was central to German DNA throughout World War II. The Allies soon realized that this penchant for counterattack meant that the Germans would eventually move into the open and get hammered.
By the end of the Normandy campaign the Germans were hemorrhaging men and machines, with two armies all but destroyed. True, a handful of Germans did escape the attempted encirclement around Falaise, but it was still a massive Allied victory. In the rapid advance that followed, the Allies moved more quickly than Germans had in the opposite direction four years before, during the invasion of France.
4. MYTH: German soldiers were better trained than their Allied counterparts
REALITY: At the start of World War II the best German units were more than a match for their Allied opposition -- but by 1944 that had changed radically. There were a few exceptions, such as the Panzer Lehr, but come D-Day most German units were not as well trained as the Allies.
Some Allied units in Normandy had been preparing for four years for this campaign. In contrast, many German troops had had little more than a few weeks' notice. The German ad hoc battle groups known as kampfgruppen are traditionally regarded as showcasing tactical flexibility, but even these were borne of extreme shortages and desperation toward the end of the war.
The German paratroopers, or fallschirmjäger, were acknowledged to be among the best of their armed forces, yet one veteran I interviewed recalled how he had barely any training, save a few route marches and practice at laying mines. He never trained with a tank, had no transport and had to march 200 miles from Brittany when sent to the front. His case was not atypical: All infantry divisions in Normandy were expected to move by either foot or horse-drawn cart. The veteran I spoke to reached Saint-Lô, a major Normandy town, on June 12 with a company of 120 men. When he was captured on August 19 he was one of just nine men still standing.
The Germans had a doctrine during World War II called auftragstaktik -- best described as the ability to use one's initiative -- which has been hailed as what set their soldiers apart. But the paratrooper I spoke to knew nothing of it. By that stage of the war, German training was so skimpy that it was impossible to implement.
Even in Germany, the perception is still that D-Day was a largely American show
James Holland
5. MYTH: The Germans had stronger tactical skills
REALITY: The dogged determination of the Germans to fight during D-Day is often confused with tactical skill. It shouldn't. The best analogy is with more recent conflicts like Afghanistan or even Vietnam, when Western forces had the best training and kit yet struggled to defeat a massively inferior enemy. As the Taliban have shown, it is very difficult to completely defeat your enemy if they don't want to be defeated. The only way to do that is to kill them all.
This is why the Germans took so long to be defeated in Normandy and, subsequently, despite a lack of training, they were still a very dangerous and deadly enemy with plenty of powerful weapons and a fierce determination to keep fighting. This was for a number of reasons: Nazi indoctrination, a profound sense of duty and the threat of execution for deserters. In World War I the Germans executed 48 men for desertion; during World War II that figure rose to 30,000.
6. MYTH: America and Britain got off lightly in World War II
REALITY: Allied frontline troops suffered horrifically during World War II. Democracies such as Britain and America tried to achieve victory with as few casualties as possible. For the most part, they did this very successfully using technology and machinery to shield lives wherever they could.
However, short distances still had to be won by the infantry, tank units and artillery. Although technology meant the Allies needed fewer forces than a generation earlier, those in the firing line still pulled the very short straw. Losses to frontline troops were proportionally worse during the 77-day Normandy campaign than they were during the major battles along the Western Front during World War I.
D-Day veteran: I don't want them to be forgotten
HellToupee
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000 said:
matuski
Footballguy
My favorite D-Day story:
The reason why things went so disastrously wrong at Omaha beach is that the U.S. bombers sent in to take out the German defenses at Omaha couldn’t see the coast because of cloud cover so they dropped their bombs well in-land. And the naval bombardment was too brief to take out the steel reinforced casements. At Utah beach, medium range bombers went in at 500 feet and hit their targets. At Gold, Juno, and Sword, the timing of the tides was such that the Royal Navy had more time to use their guns to take out the German fortifications.
The thing that saved the day at Omaha (and, consequently, saved both the invasion and outcome of the war) were that the U.S. destroyer captains were able to see what was happening after the smoke had cleared a couple of hours into the attack. They took it upon themselves without orders to charge into the beach and use their guns to take out the fortifications. Here’s a segment from Stephen Ambrose’s book:
Forty-five years later, James Knight, an Army engineer on a demolition team who landed at 0630 at Fox Red, wrote a letter to the crew of the Frankford, published in the U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings. Knight said that he had been pinned down until, “at about 1000 or 1030, a destroyer loomed out of the sea… headed straight toward me. Even though she wasn’t listing or smoking, my first thought was that she either struck a mine or taken a torpedo and was damaged badly enough that she was being beached.”
But the destroyer began to turn right. Before she was parallel to the beach she was blazing away with all her guns. Shells landed just a few feet over Knight’s head. He watched her proceed westward along the beach, firing constantly. He expected to see her pull out to sea at any moment “when suddenly I realized she was backing up and her guns had yet to pause. She backed up almost to where she started, went dead in the water for the second time… and again headed toward the other end of the beach guns still blazing.”
The reason why things went so disastrously wrong at Omaha beach is that the U.S. bombers sent in to take out the German defenses at Omaha couldn’t see the coast because of cloud cover so they dropped their bombs well in-land. And the naval bombardment was too brief to take out the steel reinforced casements. At Utah beach, medium range bombers went in at 500 feet and hit their targets. At Gold, Juno, and Sword, the timing of the tides was such that the Royal Navy had more time to use their guns to take out the German fortifications.
The thing that saved the day at Omaha (and, consequently, saved both the invasion and outcome of the war) were that the U.S. destroyer captains were able to see what was happening after the smoke had cleared a couple of hours into the attack. They took it upon themselves without orders to charge into the beach and use their guns to take out the fortifications. Here’s a segment from Stephen Ambrose’s book:
Forty-five years later, James Knight, an Army engineer on a demolition team who landed at 0630 at Fox Red, wrote a letter to the crew of the Frankford, published in the U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings. Knight said that he had been pinned down until, “at about 1000 or 1030, a destroyer loomed out of the sea… headed straight toward me. Even though she wasn’t listing or smoking, my first thought was that she either struck a mine or taken a torpedo and was damaged badly enough that she was being beached.”
But the destroyer began to turn right. Before she was parallel to the beach she was blazing away with all her guns. Shells landed just a few feet over Knight’s head. He watched her proceed westward along the beach, firing constantly. He expected to see her pull out to sea at any moment “when suddenly I realized she was backing up and her guns had yet to pause. She backed up almost to where she started, went dead in the water for the second time… and again headed toward the other end of the beach guns still blazing.”
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
