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Kamala Harris And Equality Of Outcomes vs Equality of Opportunity (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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I know some folks like to laugh off the socialism or communism stuff.

Kamala Harris just posted this video https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1322963321994289154?s=20

Seeing a fair bit of commentary like this:

https://twitter.com/ZPostFacto/status/1323015114971246592?s=20

This is a pretty in-your-face endorsement of equality of outcomes as a policy goal. (As opposed to equality of opportunity.) Look, you guys got my vote because I voted against Trump. But this is a really, really bad idea.
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Thoughts?

 
Joe Bryant said:
I know some folks like to laugh off the socialism or communism stuff.

Kamala Harris just posted this video https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1322963321994289154?s=20

Seeing a fair bit of commentary like this:

https://twitter.com/ZPostFacto/status/1323015114971246592?s=20

Thoughts?
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The animation of the equal-length rope failing to reach one of the people seems to rebut the tweet's insistence that this is not about equality of opportunity.  It seems to me that virtually the entire video really is about equality of opportunity . . .

Except the very last part where she says "that's how we all end in the same place."  They could have handled that part better.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Except the very last part where she says "that's how we all end in the same place."  They could have handled that part better.
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Thanks. Most any well done communication closes with the main point. She concluded with equality of outcome literally saying the words "we all end up in the same place." 

I see a ton of people who are seeing that much differently than "they could have handled that better". They're seeing that as she told you the truth. 

 
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I may not understand the criticism fully.  Are people suggesting that Harris believes that everyone should have the exact same amount of wealth and income?

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
The animation of the equal-length rope failing to reach one of the people seems to rebut the tweet's insistence that this is not about equality of opportunity.  It seems to me that virtually the entire video really is about equality of opportunity . . .

Except the very last part where she says "that's how we all end in the same place."  They could have handled that part better.
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I agree.  This video has shown up in my TL with a bunch of people complaining about that last bit, and it seems to me that they're being a little uncharitable.  I doubt that Harris really expects or wants for everybody to end up the same place (whatever that means).

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks. Most any well done communication closes with the main point. She concluded with equality of outcome where "we all end up in the same place." 

I see a ton of people who are seeing that much differently than "they could have handled that better". They're seeing that as she told you the truth. 
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The problem for me is that "in the same place" is a very vague concept that people can interpret how they want.  I think critics of the ad are defining "in the same place" as everyone having the same amount of wealth or income or something.  But the sentences right before that line talk about everyone having "equal footing" so they "compete" on equal footing.  Which seems to me to be a different message entirely.  If everyone is ending up in the same place, what's this stuff about "competing"? 

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
The animation of the equal-length rope failing to reach one of the people seems to rebut the tweet's insistence that this is not about equality of opportunity.  It seems to me that virtually the entire video really is about equality of opportunity . . .

Except the very last part where she says "that's how we all end in the same place."  They could have handled that part better.
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They would have said "start from the same place" if they meant start from the same place. 

 
There's not a politician out there that I truly believes in Equality of Outcome, except maybe Bernie and a few others.  They are too greedy.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I guess this is funny to some. I'll bow out of this one but I thought it was remarkable. 
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????  You ask for thoughts. You get substantive responses from every single poster in this thread except me, who simply made a joke about Donald Jr. weighing in on an equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome topic, and you’re bowing out?  I guess I should just stop posting in your threads altogether Joe. I’m not sure what I did to get under your skin. 

 
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AAABatteries said:
There's not a politician out there that I truly believes in Equality of Outcome, except maybe Bernie and a few others.  They are too greedy.
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Well sure. Not for them. But there is precedent for pushing equality of outcome for everybody but a select few. 

It isn't like we don't see things moving more in this direction. I started a topic about grading in schools. Minorities weren't doing as well in school in San Diego. So instead of reallocating funding or efforts toward attacking some of the root causes of that, they just changed the grading system. That is a measure designed to affect the outcome, not the starting point.

ETA: There is a reason they picked a mountain top and not a starting line or just getting the guy to the base of the mountain, next to the other guy, from down in the pit of despair. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I know some folks like to laugh off the socialism or communism stuff.

Kamala Harris just posted this video https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1322963321994289154?s=20

Seeing a fair bit of commentary like this:

https://twitter.com/ZPostFacto/status/1323015114971246592?s=20

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's interesting.   I think at the core.....most Americans want to believe that they are in favor of equal opportunity for all.   The challenge is......we clearly don't operate in that system, and when we have massive evidence......people struggle to believe that opportunity isn't equal.   How do we SEE that lack of equal opportunity?  Because we have clearly unequal outcomes....that have widened over the past 40 years.   

As a fairly liberal person, who strongly believes in equal opportunity for all.....I definitely am not on board with equal outcomes for all, regardless of effort.  It's really hard to believe Harris is a proponent......but....

 
bigbottom said:
????  You ask for thoughts. You get substantive responses from every single poster in this thread except me, who simply made a joke about Donald Jr. weighing in on an equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome topic, and you’re bowing out?  I guess I should just stop posting in your threads altogether Joe. I’m not sure what I did to get under your skin. 
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Not often you can say that.

 
I'm pretty sure some version of that video is why @bigbottom told me long ago it's impossible to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. IIRC, because social justice is incompatible with fiscal conservatism.

Still not a fan of social justice if it means seeking to even out the outcome because of differing opportunity.

Much prefer seeking to achieve reasonably similar opportunities. 

Still voting for Biden and Harris.

 
I think the theme of the speech/video is that we can all achieve success if we are provided with true equality of opportunity. Of course this assumes that everyone will still have to expend the effort to capitalize on the opportunity they have been given - this is exemplified in the video by the person in the valley who still has to climb the mountain, just as the first person did. I think the imagery makes the message clear, even if the words, standing alone, were less so. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Thoughts?
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My thought is that Democrats have philosophical beliefs which are fundamentally opposite from Republicans. One of those beliefs is that the government should play a larger and more direct role when it comes to improving the lives of the people.

Many Republicans interpret this belief as being a form of socialism or communism.

Therefore, it should not be surprising when some Republicans interpret the comments of Democrats as being "socialist" or "communist."

 
bigbottom said:
????  You ask for thoughts. You get substantive responses from every single poster in this thread except me, who simply made a joke about Donald Jr. weighing in on an equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome topic, and you’re bowing out?  I guess I should just stop posting in your threads altogether Joe. I’m not sure what I did to get under your skin. 
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Definitely nothing to do with you GB.  I don't understand the "I guess I should just stop posting in your threads altogether Joe. I’m not sure what I did to get under your skin." Had you posted something previously that was an issue? I don't recall any.

I'm just legit struggling with it and thought this was remarkable and it bummed me to see the normal "dismiss the topic and make a joke about who said it" thing. Nothing personal at all. Kind of bummed you'd think there was but I know it's a tense time. And written words are a poor way to communicate. Especially mine. All good. 

 
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Joe Summer said:
My thought is that Democrats have philosophical beliefs which are fundamentally opposite from Republicans. One of those beliefs is that the government should play a larger and more direct role when it comes to improving the lives of the people.

Many Republicans interpret this belief as being a form of socialism or communism.

Therefore, it should not be surprising when some Republicans interpret the comments of Democrats as being "socialist" or "communist."
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Is it really a stretch of an interpretation?  She is very clear in her message.  Why does everyone feel the need to come in here and explain that what she meant to say was something other than what she did say?  

 
Joe Bryant said:
Definitely nothing to do with you GB.  I don't understand the "I guess I should just stop posting in your threads altogether Joe. I’m not sure what I did to get under your skin." Had you posted something previously that was an issue? I don't recall any.

I'm just legit struggling with it and thought this was remarkable and it bummed me to see the normal "dismiss the topic and make a joke about who said it" thing. Nothing personal at all. Kind of bummed you'd think there was but I know it's a tense time. All good. 
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Well shoot, now I’ve bummed you out with not just one post, but with two. I apologize as this was not my intent at all. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Definitely nothing to do with you GB.  I don't understand the "I guess I should just stop posting in your threads altogether Joe. I’m not sure what I did to get under your skin." Had you posted something previously that was an issue? I don't recall any.

I'm just legit struggling with it and thought this was remarkable and it bummed me to see the normal "dismiss the topic and make a joke about who said it" thing. Nothing personal at all. Kind of bummed you'd think there was but I know it's a tense time. All good. 
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I think from your other thread we are all on edge and I'm sure BB, like me, uses humor as a way to cope.  Hopefully this doesn't seem like my piling on here but one recommendation I would have is that we continue to let folks joke as long as they aren't at another posters expense.  No matter who we vote for, we are all going to need to smile and laugh the next few days.

 
Joe Summer said:
My thought is that Democrats have philosophical beliefs which are fundamentally opposite from Republicans. One of those beliefs is that the government should play a larger and more direct role when it comes to improving the lives of the people.

Many Republicans interpret this belief as being a form of socialism or communism.

Therefore, it should not be surprising when some Republicans interpret the comments of Democrats as being "socialist" or "communist."
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1.  I think Kamala's personality is that of a kindgarten teacher.  She's bubbly and happy and loves everybody and we're all gonna do good together today!  And I think this was Kamala being Kamala and saying we're all going to have success together.  I don't think this was a pro-socialism video.

2.  As a conservative, I hope everyone's lives are improved.  I don't have any degree of hate for people who rely on social programs.  I don't want to take away from them.  I just don't believe the answer is let's figure out who we can take from to give to the people that need it.  That...is socialist.  

Everyone should be given equal opportunity.  I don't think that means everyone gets the same outcome.  And I think that Republicans that are criticizing Kamala here are being technical.  The problem is...Kamala is intentionally being technical and explaining the difference between equity and equality.  

 
psychobillies said:
Is it really a stretch of an interpretation?  She is very clear in her message.  Why does everyone feel the need to come in here and explain that what she meant to say was something other than what she did say?  
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Do you think the video is at odds with the voice over?  Because in the video, both of the people still had to climb the mountain. 

 
So what exactly is meant by equality of opportunity.  Free education through graduate school or phd for all?

 
psychobillies said:
Is it really a stretch of an interpretation?  She is very clear in her message.  Why does everyone feel the need to come in here and explain that what she meant to say was something other than what she did say?  
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Part of it is because Harris isn’t some random person on Twitter or something.  She’s been in the public eye for many years.  Making the leap that she thinks everyone should have the same wealth is inconsistent with what we already know about her.  Has she proposed anything like that in the Senate?  When she ran for President?

 
bigbottom said:
And absence of food insecurity. And access to quality medical care. 
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On this point, people call Medicare for All a form of socialism. But whatever its merits or shortcomings as a policy matter, I view it as falling in the equality of opportunity bucket more so than the equality of outcome bucket. Because access to health care and social mobility are correlated.

 
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I'm a native English speaker, but whenever I hear "equity" in this context, it throws me off a bit. It always seems like a malapropism for "equality."

The beginning of the video seemed to help clarify things. It seemed like she was using "equality" to mean equality of outcomes while using "equity" to mean equality of opportunity. That was helpful ... until the last line, where it seemed like she used "equity" to mean equality of outcomes.

I think the problem is that the video wasn't made from a script. It was made from a clip of her speaking off the cuff, but she kind of misspoke.

In any case, nobody really believes in enforcing literal equality of either opportunity or outcomes. I think most people believe that there are many reasonable things we should do make opportunities more equal (but not perfectly equal). There's more of a debate about to what extent outcomes should be made more equal. That takes some philosophizing.

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Thanks. Most any well done communication closes with the main point. She concluded with equality of outcome literally saying the words "we all end up in the same place." 
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She really blew it with that closing line. Like it or not, it tells people that under a Biden/Harris administration, even if you work your rear off, you'll still end up in the same place as those who don't even try. The removal of the motivation to do more so that you can achieve more, has and always will be the biggest downside of socialism. The incentive is gone if what you can reach is capped. Her message strikes that tone. But hey the cartoon and song almost made it sound inspirational.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
She really blew it with that closing line. Like it or not, it tells people that under a Biden/Harris administration, even if you work your rear off, you'll still end up in the same place as those who don't even try. The removal of the motivation to do more so that you can achieve more, has and always will be the biggest downside of socialism. The incentive is gone if what you can reach is capped. Her message strikes that tone. But hey the cartoon and song almost made it sound inspirational.
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Do you think the cartoon conflicted with the intended message?

 
Mr Anonymous said:
She really blew it with that closing line. Like it or not, it tells people that under a Biden/Harris administration, even if you work your rear off, you'll still end up in the same place as those who don't even try. The removal of the motivation to do more so that you can achieve more, has and always will be the biggest downside of socialism. The incentive is gone if what you can reach is capped. Her message strikes that tone. But hey the cartoon and song almost made it sound inspirational.
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I don’t think that was the intent, but I think a lot of people are going to hear it that way.  And arguably, it’s literally what she says.  

 
bigbottom said:
Do you think the cartoon conflicted with the intended message?
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Haven't really given it much thought. Think the cartoon could have been tweaked though I guess. Show a rope pulling everyone to a common starting point and letting people rise or fall from there. The whole idea of government providing the means to get everyone to the same final place is absurd. It's Fantasyland.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
Haven't really given it much thought. Think the cartoon could have been tweaked though. Show a rope pulling everyone to a common starting point and letting people rise or fall from there. The whole idea of government providing the means to get everyone to the same final place is absurd.
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I think the video part depicted precisely what you say it should have. The assistance provided to the person in the valley was only to help him get to the bottom of the mountain where the other person started. That was the same starting place, not the same final place. Both of the individuals in the cartoon had to climb the mountain. 

 
I don't see the point in posting this video today. I feel like the Democrats should just be sitting back and being quiet. Basically, line up in victory formation, take a knee, and don't risk a Joe Pisarcik fumble. Do they think there are undecided voters who are going to see this and move them towards Biden-Harris? I think that's highly unlikely. I also think it's highly unlikely to swing a ton votes to Trump with this, but I think that's at least more likely.

 
bigbottom said:
I think the video part depicted precisely what you say it should have. The assistance provided to the person in the valley was only to help him get to the bottom of the mountain where the other person started. That was the same starting place, not the same final place. Both of the individuals in the cartoon had to climb the mountain. 
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You could be right but I'd say how fast this video is spreading and how much pushback it's getting, suggests they missed the mark. Maybe they should have shown people on various spots on the mountain as the closing imagery. What got me in the end was exactly what Joe alluded to - "we all end up in the same place". If that comes via the government it's not going to be a very fine place.

 
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I didn't read into it the same way you did..I see it as an acknowledgement that we have a society where many start at a disadvantage due to systemic poverty, racism, etc. Those starting miles behind the runners at the gun need a little more help to compete. Ending up in the same place is equivalent to having the same opportunities as those more fortunate. How you respond to those opportunities is up to the individual.

 
They actually say “..we all end up in the same place”. 
 

Not much there to think about. They didn’t accidentally screw up the end of the story.  

 
I think like a lot of issues, there's a spectrum when it comes to opportunity versus life choices as far as life outcome.  At the one extreme end you have proponents of the bootstrapper idea where your finishing point is almost entirely within your control, and at the other end people who argue the disparate outcomes are almost entirely caused by societal forces.  Most people probably agree the truth is somewhere in between, with the right leaning more towards the first idea and the left leaning more towards the second idea. 

I think, Harris, as someone on the left, is letting the assumption hang out there that we'll all end up in the same place if we have the same starting place.  I suspect if really pressed on it she would admit that some people fail due to their own poor decisions, and I don't think it's intended to be a secret message for communism.   However, it's probably somewhat revealing of her general worldview that she is going to tend to look towards societal forces vs. individual choices as a driving factor behind widespread disparity of outcomes.

 
It also amazes me that something like this which so clearly (ok, at least in my mind) is meant with the best of intentions can be blown up by the right in this country as an OMG moment while we have a sitting President who has said and done thousands of things more shocking and disqualifying to be leader of the free world. It boggles the mind.

 
dgreen said:
I don't see the point in posting this video today. I feel like the Democrats should just be sitting back and being quiet. Basically, line up in victory formation, take a knee, and don't risk a Joe Pisarcik fumble. Do they think there are undecided voters who are going to see this and move them towards Biden-Harris? I think that's highly unlikely. I also think it's highly unlikely to swing a ton votes to Trump with this, but I think that's at least more likely.
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My thought too.

She's super smart. This wasn't a dumb mistake. I think she's telling you what she thinks.

It has me thinking I'll vote for Jorgenson. Who I know virtually nothing about. Which is stupid. It won't really matter in TN as Trump will win the state. But equal opportunity vs equal outcome is a pretty hot topic. I've talked a lot about my Trump voting friends and one of the good conversations we've been able to have is they've sincerely asked me the "Aren't you worried about the socialism / communism thing?".

I've answered honestly in the past that I get their concern and the Bernie Sanders element and such. But no, I wasn't worried about it. But this kind of thing from Harris today is just in your face. This is the kind of thing you look back on and say, "She told you clearly what she was going to do".

Equal Opportunity - Yes. All day long. We need to work hard at that and we have much room still to improve there. But Equal Outcome where we "all end up in the same place" is different.

I'm sick about it as I've been in favor of Joe Biden for a long time. My vote doesn't matter. I know that. But I like to feel like it does and now I just mostly feel like crap. 

 
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I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Harris isn't a socialist. She isn't trying to have the means of production, distribution and exchange owned and regulated by the community as a whole. Single payer healthcare, reducing / eliminating educational costs, programs to address opportunity imbalances are things she'd promote. Full on socialism isn't anywhere on the radar.

 
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