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Kamala Harris And Equality Of Outcomes vs Equality of Opportunity (1 Viewer)

cap'n grunge said:
Manster said:
I can get behind equal opportunity, which I think the vast majority of Americans would agree with.  But Kamala Harris is for reparations.  imo, it's a horrible idea.  You do not motivate with handouts.  This is one of the main reasons I cannot vote for Biden/Harris
I'm not sure I believe in reparations either, but it's not exactly a handout. We're talking about making people whole for generations of lost family wealth due to indentured servitude.
Reparations isn't a handout.  It's an apology and acknowledgement that the government screwed up and wants to make things right.  Just like it was to our Asian Americans for US behavior during WWII

 
Reparations isn't a handout.  It's an apology and acknowledgement that the government screwed up and wants to make things right.  Just like it was to our Asian Americans for US behavior during WWII
Ok, poorly worded, I admit that.  The point remains the same.

 
I don't believe it is true either, but I do believe they have intentionally toed the line of supporting it to make sure the bernie supporters still head out to vote. 
I agree.  Even if Joe - or more likely, Kamala - tried to push hard left, we have checks and balances.  In particular, Congress has plenty of moderate Dems who, along with the Rs, would hold them back. 

If/when Trump falls, a primary reason will have been his failure to reach out beyond his base.  He has played to the 45% who adored him and hasn't made attempts to stretch out for the 3-4% he has needed to win.

 
Ok, poorly worded, I admit that.  The point remains the same.
I haven't followed this closely so forgive me if I don't understand.  Are you saying it's a bad idea to apologize for and acknowledge mistakes?  Why is that "a horrible idea" in your view?

 
I haven't followed this closely so forgive me if I don't understand.  Are you saying it's a bad idea to apologize for and acknowledge mistakes?  Why is that "a horrible idea" in your view?
Huh?  Why would you say that?  

The bad idea is giving out money.  If anything, invest the money in black communities and schools.  Giving individuals money based on what happened in the past is not a good idea, imo.

 
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My thought too.

She's super smart. This wasn't a dumb mistake. I think she's telling you what she thinks.

It has me thinking I'll vote for Jorgenson. Who I know virtually nothing about. Which is stupid. It won't really matter in TN as Trump will win the state. But equal opportunity vs equal outcome is a pretty hot topic. I've talked a lot about my Trump voting friends and one of the good conversations we've been able to have is they've sincerely asked me the "Aren't you worried about the socialism / communism thing?".

I've answered honestly in the past that I get their concern and the Bernie Sanders element and such. But no, I wasn't worried about it. But this kind of thing from Harris today is just in your face. This is the kind of thing you look back on and say, "She told you clearly what she was going to do".

Equal Opportunity - Yes. All day long. We need to work hard at that and we have much room still to improve there. But Equal Outcome where we "all end up in the same place" is different.

I'm sick about it as I've been in favor of Joe Biden for a long time. My vote doesn't matter. I know that. But I like to feel like it does and now I just mostly feel like crap. 
This is extremely discouraging.  I know you have a big heart and it is very disheartening to see your interpretation of this video as being anywhere near enough to sway you from doing everything in your power to rid our country of Trump.  Your vote does matter.  Every vote against Trump matters.  

 
I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Harris isn't a socialist. She isn't trying to have the means of production, distribution and exchange owned and regulated by the community as a whole. Single payer healthcare, reducing / eliminating educational costs, programs to address opportunity imbalances are things she'd promote. Full on socialism isn't anywhere on the radar.
This is 100% correct.  Yet it's telling how quickly and easily some can be dissuaded from opposing Trump.  Lots of folks are essentially looking for anything they can find to justify not voting for Biden Harris.  Mind boggling that 4 years of watching Trump and this cartoon could change someone's vote.   

 
This is 100% correct.  Yet it's telling how quickly and easily some can be dissuaded from opposing Trump.  Lots of folks are essentially looking for anything they can find to justify not voting for Biden Harris.  Mind boggling that 4 years of watching Trump and this cartoon could change someone's vote.   
That's my feel too. 

Harris has busted her ### to get where she is, her an her husband are purported to have a net worth of around $6 million. You really think she's selling identical outcomes for everyone and trying to turn the U.S. into the U.S.S.R.? Nonsense. It's a B.S. narrative people want to use to justify demonizing her (and other liberals).

 
I haven't followed this closely so forgive me if I don't understand.  Are you saying it's a bad idea to apologize for and acknowledge mistakes?  Why is that "a horrible idea" in your view?
If I'm driving carelessly and run over my neighbor's dog, it would be good for me to apologize and acknowledge my mistake.

If a random motorist drives carelessly and runs over my neighbor's dog, it would be really weird for me to apologize.

 
Huh?  Why would you say that?  

The bad idea is giving out money.  If anything, invest the money in black communities and schools.  Giving individuals money based on what happened in the past is not a good idea, imo.
I said that because you said that reparations were a bad idea.  Reparations are an expression of regret and acknowledgement that they screwed up.  An apology.  I'm confused by the meaningful distinction you seem to think there is between giving individuals money and giving communities money.  Does it matter all that much if you give an individual X amount of dollars for their kid to go to Y school vs giving X amount of dollars to Y school that the kid goes to?

 
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If I'm driving carelessly and run over my neighbor's dog, it would be good for me to apologize and acknowledge my mistake.

If a random motorist drives carelessly and runs over my neighbor's dog, it would be really weird for me to apologize.
Agreed...not sure what your point is though.

 
If I'm driving carelessly and run over my neighbor's dog, it would be good for me to apologize and acknowledge my mistake.

If a random motorist drives carelessly and runs over my neighbor's dog, it would be really weird for me to apologize.
Agreed.

It's why the US should apologize and make things right. Not individual citizens.

They are partly one in the same which is why there's not a great analogy for it, but it's still why some feel that way.

 
Agreed.

It's why the US should apologize and make things right. Not individual citizens.

They are partly one in the same which is why there's not a great analogy for it, but it's still why some feel that way.
Right.  There's not really such a thing as "the United States" apart from the citizens who make up the United States.

 
This is 100% correct.  Yet it's telling how quickly and easily some can be dissuaded from opposing Trump.  Lots of folks are essentially looking for anything they can find to justify not voting for Biden Harris.  Mind boggling that 4 years of watching Trump and this cartoon could change someone's vote.   
One can still oppose Trump and vote for a 3rd party. Especially in my state of Tennessee which Trump is expected to win so the vote is symbolic. 

 
And for what it's worth, I voted Biden / Harris today. Just didn't feel comfortable voting, even symbolically, for a 3rd party candidate I knew nothing about. I've been supporting Biden on this forum for a long time. 

 
Right.  There's not really such a thing as "the United States" apart from the citizens who make up the United States.
That's not true. 

When the US negotiates a trade agreement, for example, it's not the citizens doing so. It's the US government comprised of officials elected by the citizens. The US Government is an entity that, while comprised of citizens, functions as an independent singular unit in many fashions.

 
One can still oppose Trump and vote for a 3rd party. Especially in my state of Tennessee which Trump is expected to win so the vote is symbolic. 
I did in 2016...vowing never to vote for Hillary, could never bring myself to doing so.  

This year...even my symbolic vote was for Biden...mainly because Jorgensen's VP choice, just could not get around that...and don't have the dislike for Biden that I ever had for Hillary.  Here is to hoping for better choices 4 years from now.

 
Thank you.

And to be clear, I'm not voting for President Trump. That's not been an option. 

My point was exactly what you said. I tend to take people at their word. 

Interestingly, this works the same way for President Trump. Nobody should be the least bit surprised the last four years have been what they've been. He showed you what to expect.

Trump may be a lot of things. But "unclear" is not one of them. 

Maya Angelou said it well, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

I may well be making more out of this than is there. But if so, it'll be because I took her to mean what she actually said and chose to promote. This wasn't misspeaking or a gaffe or being caught off guard. This was a promo piece thoughtfully created, approved and strategically distributed.  

If I make more out of it than is there, it won't be misreading or interpreting something poorly. This will be listening to the actual words she actually chose to promote one day before the election.

Equitable Outcomes is very different from Equitable Opportunity. I agree with the earlier comment, "This is a pretty in-your-face endorsement of equality of outcomes as a policy goal. (As opposed to equality of opportunity.) Look, you guys got my vote because I voted against Trump. But this is a really, really bad idea."

I know many regular thoughtful conservative people who see it like, "Very helpful of Kamala to publicly endorse socialism on twitter today. I mean we all knew it was coming, but she’s saying it out loud now." 

I'll still likely vote for Biden as I can't see changing streams after a year and voting for a candidate I know nothing about. Even if my vote doesn't matter. It's just disappointing.

I already have to listen to my conservative friends say Bernie and AOC will be running things soon (which I don't believe). But when the Vice Presidential candidate is proudly promoting the idea we need to manage the system so we all end up at the same place, that's a different story. 

Also fully admit I'm likely more bummed than normal as my elderly aunt in Lexington tested positive for Friday. Good news is she's mostly asymptomatic but bad news is my uncle tested positive today. That's not an excuse but reality of where I am. 

I think it's best if I'm pretty scarce here the next few days. Please be extra cool though however this goes as I told the moderators to not put up with posters being uncool. 
Thoughts are with your aunt and uncle Joe.  Hope they come through this ok.  

 
I did in 2016...vowing never to vote for Hillary, could never bring myself to doing so.  

This year...even my symbolic vote was for Biden...mainly because Jorgensen's VP choice, just could not get around that...and don't have the dislike for Biden that I ever had for Hillary.  Here is to hoping for better choices 4 years from now.
Good for you sho. Glad to have your support.  Joe Biden was not my first choice either.  Just like in fantasy football, where I'm starting Kyler Murray.  He wasn't my first choice, but Pat Mahomes was already gone when it came time for me to select my QB.  While bummed that I didn't get my first choice, it would be insane to throw away Kyler Murray and start Blake Bortles instead, just because I'm frustrated not to have Pat Mahomes.  

 
One can still oppose Trump and vote for a 3rd party. Especially in my state of Tennessee which Trump is expected to win so the vote is symbolic. 
Sure. But even that symbolic vote matters, because with so much uncertainty about Trump leaving office even if he loses, it's important for Biden to run up the score in the popular vote, as well as in the electoral college.  Trump's "election was stolen" argument may resonate if it's a close election and Biden only wins by 1-2 million popular votes.  If Biden wins by 10 million, that dog won't hunt. 

 
Perhaps this is my idealistic liberal warm and fuzzies speaking, but I generally agree not only with the animation in the cartoon, but also with Kamala's words.  We have dramatic differences in socio-economic well being in this country that breaks down around racial lines.  Why is it that minorities are less likely to achieve economic prosperity, post graduate education, senior management positions, etc?  Do people believe that there is something inherent in the pigment of one's skin that ultimately determines one's chances for prosperity?  If not, and we do have equality of opportunity, shouldn't the demographics of those on the mountain closely reflect the actual demographics of our country? 

I take Kamala's words to mean that if we can truly achieve equality of opportunity, in general, we will all end up in the same place.  Not the EXACT same place (everyone makes $52,720.21!!!) - but in general, a place where we all have food security, healthcare, and a roof over our heads.  :shrug:  

 
Sure. But even that symbolic vote matters, because with so much uncertainty about Trump leaving office even if he loses, it's important for Biden to run up the score in the popular vote, as well as in the electoral college.  Trump's "election was stolen" argument may resonate if it's a close election and Biden only wins by 1-2 million popular votes.  If Biden wins by 10 million, that dog won't hunt. 
Oh, come on.

I can make things up to feign hysteria, too. But that doesn't really help the discussion or discourse.

 
Oh, come on.

I can make things up to feign hysteria, too. But that doesn't really help the discussion or discourse.
I don't think it's hysteria to suggest that Trump may file lawsuits that delay or gum up the transfer of power.  If anything, Trump has shown us that norms do not matter anymore, only law.  I think there are plausible scenarios in which a Trump challenge to the Supreme Court could result in chaos.  Not likely, but not nearly as dismissable as you seem to think it is.

But I 100% hope you are right, and we never experience it.  

 
I said that because you said that reparations were a bad idea.  Reparations are an expression of regret and acknowledgement that they screwed up.  An apology.  I'm confused by the meaningful distinction you seem to think there is between giving individuals money and giving communities money.  Does it matter all that much if you give an individual X amount of dollars for their kid to go to Y school vs giving X amount of dollars to Y school that the kid goes to?
What's there to be confused about?

Giving people money that they don't have to work for creates complacency, and dependence.......investing in a community can give people the means to make their own way.

 
Oh, come on.

I can make things up to feign hysteria, too. But that doesn't really help the discussion or discourse.
The real question is when Biden wins, will the left tear up all of Washington DC demanding Trump leave the white house, immediately. 

Not saying this will happen. Saying this is just as crazy as predicting trump wont leave office. 

 
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Reparations isn't a handout.  It's an apology and acknowledgement that the government screwed up and wants to make things right.  Just like it was to our Asian Americans for US behavior during WWII
Is this going to fix the problem of oppression? BTW Asian Americans are the more sucesfull than Whites in this country.

 
What's there to be confused about?

Giving people money that they don't have to work for creates complacency, and dependence.......investing in a community can give people the means to make their own way.
You're giving it to them either way...it's just an extra step :shrug:  which means more of that dollar goes to someone else which means less efficient means.  On top of that, we're talking about a one time payment as an apology or making amends.  This isn't welfare...it's symbolic so I give no real energy to this particular "concern".  

 
Is this going to fix the problem of oppression? BTW Asian Americans are the more sucesfull than Whites in this country.
I doubt it....society has to change that.  That's not what reparations are for though, so I'm not sure why it's even a criteria.  

 
You're giving it to them either way...it's just an extra step :shrug:  which means more of that dollar goes to someone else which means less efficient means.  On top of that, we're talking about a one time payment as an apology or making amends.  This isn't welfare...it's symbolic so I give no real energy to this particular "concern".  
The bold is debatable. 

Improving schools in a community has a long lasting effect. Giving poor people a few thousand dollars might have a long lasting effect but it's not as wide spread. 

The issue isn't with individuals, it's systemic. So contributing more to the system makes sense imo.

 
The bold is debatable. 

Improving schools in a community has a long lasting effect. Giving poor people a few thousand dollars might have a long lasting effect but it's not as wide spread. 

The issue isn't with individuals, it's systemic. So contributing more to the system makes sense imo.
Perhaps but in my experience, the more hands the money passes through, the less thats left in the end. Regardless, we are talking about reparations which are mostly symbolic. We arent talking about money for an entitlement program. No reason to talk about it in those terms

 
Sure. But even that symbolic vote matters, because with so much uncertainty about Trump leaving office even if he loses, it's important for Biden to run up the score in the popular vote, as well as in the electoral college.  Trump's "election was stolen" argument may resonate if it's a close election and Biden only wins by 1-2 million popular votes.  If Biden wins by 10 million, that dog won't hunt. 
It's important for you for Biden to run up the score, but for those of us who did not vote for either Biden or Trump, it is not. Sorry, but this continuing thinly-veiled criticism of people who voted their conscience by not giving a vote to either poor candidate the two major parties threw at us, rather than how you wanted them to, needs to stop.  Symbolic votes for a 3rd party candidate matter.  If you wanted to run up the score against a candidate as bad as Trump, blame the Democrats for not getting a much better candidate.

 
It's important for you for Biden to run up the score, but for those of us who did not vote for either Biden or Trump, it is not. Sorry, but this continuing thinly-veiled criticism of people who voted their conscience by not giving a vote to either poor candidate the two major parties threw at us, rather than how you wanted them to, needs to stop.  Symbolic votes for a 3rd party candidate matter.  If you wanted to run up the score against a candidate as bad as Trump, blame the Democrats for not getting a much better candidate.
I can't speak for others, but my vote for Jorgensen wasn't intended to be symbolic. She's a better candidate than the others.

Plus I'm a libertarian anyway. But if either D or R had put up a worthy candidate, I might have voted that way. (My presidential voting record is 3D, 2R, 2L) 

 
Thank you.

And to be clear, I'm not voting for President Trump. That's not been an option. 

My point was exactly what you said. I tend to take people at their word. 

Interestingly, this works the same way for President Trump. Nobody should be the least bit surprised the last four years have been what they've been. He showed you what to expect.

Trump may be a lot of things. But "unclear" is not one of them. 

Maya Angelou said it well, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

I may well be making more out of this than is there. But if so, it'll be because I took her to mean what she actually said and chose to promote. This wasn't misspeaking or a gaffe or being caught off guard. This was a promo piece thoughtfully created, approved and strategically distributed.  

If I make more out of it than is there, it won't be misreading or interpreting something poorly. This will be listening to the actual words she actually chose to promote one day before the election.

Equitable Outcomes is very different from Equitable Opportunity. I agree with the earlier comment, "This is a pretty in-your-face endorsement of equality of outcomes as a policy goal. (As opposed to equality of opportunity.) Look, you guys got my vote because I voted against Trump. But this is a really, really bad idea."

I know many regular thoughtful conservative people who see it like, "Very helpful of Kamala to publicly endorse socialism on twitter today. I mean we all knew it was coming, but she’s saying it out loud now." 

I'll still likely vote for Biden as I can't see changing streams after a year and voting for a candidate I know nothing about. Even if my vote doesn't matter. It's just disappointing.

I already have to listen to my conservative friends say Bernie and AOC will be running things soon (which I don't believe). But when the Vice Presidential candidate is proudly promoting the idea we need to manage the system so we all end up at the same place, that's a different story. 

Also fully admit I'm likely more bummed than normal as my elderly aunt in Lexington tested positive for Friday. Good news is she's mostly asymptomatic but bad news is my uncle tested positive today. That's not an excuse but reality of where I am. 

I think it's best if I'm pretty scarce here the next few days. Please be extra cool though however this goes as I told the moderators to not put up with posters being uncool. 
Agree. The bolded is THE message here. Believe her when she says who she is and what she is about and, just as importantly, understand fully what Equitable outcomes is because, in the context of the message she sent, it meant, pure and simple, a basic fundamental of socialism in which everyone ends in the same place and each and every historical model we have seen illustrates that the end result is a massive population of poor people without true freedom and opportunity with an elitist class ruling over it under the guise of "for the good of all".  

If someone wiped out everyone's status today and we all started at zero and we "rebooted" our country under its current system, it is very likely that a lot of the known wealthy people in this country would rise to the top again because they take risks (and are therefore rewarded or cherish and burn), they take initiative and study and research. There are reasons these things happen that extend much farther (not always but in many cases) beyond all the inequalities that many people want to cite. 

There is a typical thought that our country is a country of demographics that drives a lot of results within a capitalistic system but the truer reality may be that we are a country of economics and the real reason for such is the willingness to act in a capitalistic system. Remove that and there is simply nothing left except drastically given classes of those who choose and have vs. those who do not and don't. 

 
My thought too.

She's super smart. This wasn't a dumb mistake. I think she's telling you what she thinks.

It has me thinking I'll vote for Jorgenson. Who I know virtually nothing about. Which is stupid. It won't really matter in TN as Trump will win the state. But equal opportunity vs equal outcome is a pretty hot topic. I've talked a lot about my Trump voting friends and one of the good conversations we've been able to have is they've sincerely asked me the "Aren't you worried about the socialism / communism thing?".

I've answered honestly in the past that I get their concern and the Bernie Sanders element and such. But no, I wasn't worried about it. But this kind of thing from Harris today is just in your face. This is the kind of thing you look back on and say, "She told you clearly what she was going to do".

Equal Opportunity - Yes. All day long. We need to work hard at that and we have much room still to improve there. But Equal Outcome where we "all end up in the same place" is different.

I'm sick about it as I've been in favor of Joe Biden for a long time. My vote doesn't matter. I know that. But I like to feel like it does and now I just mostly feel like crap. 
Jesus said "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God" and his greatest commandment was "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". 

Wouldn't he have wanted people to have a chance to compete and reach the same place? 

 

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