Wow. What a pessimist... Completely ignoring the fact that you'll end up with another top 5 draft pick next year.One thing you learn as a Cleveland sports fan is to always expect the worst.
Butch Davis will eventually get another head coaching job in the NFL and lead that team to multiple super bowl wins. Edwards and Pool will be out for the year before week 1. 12 starters will be on IR by October. We go 2-14.
I suppose our season always seems to begin and end with the draft.Wow. What a pessimist... Completely ignoring the fact that you'll end up with another top 5 draft pick next year.One thing you learn as a Cleveland sports fan is to always expect the worst.
Butch Davis will eventually get another head coaching job in the NFL and lead that team to multiple super bowl wins. Edwards and Pool will be out for the year before week 1. 12 starters will be on IR by October. We go 2-14.![]()
Really. How often did you start Troupe last year?
Winslow's incentive-laden, six-year, $40 million contract is littered with language that forbids "hazardous activities" such as "motorcycling." This means that Winslow has put the majority of the contract at risk. The Browns now could ask Winslow to return the $4.4 million option bonus they paid him March 1, as well as a significant portion of the $6 million signing bonus they paid him last year. Then there are the salary escalators in Winslow's contract, none of which he can achieve if he's not on the field. With his latest injuries, Winslow stands to lose a $2 million salary escalator in 2006, another $3 million salary escalator in 2007, and salary escalators throughout his deal that are scheduled to run through 2009. This says nothing of his base salary, which he could not collect without playing. Winslow already lost $5.4 million worth of incentives last season when he broke his leg. Now he stands to lose millions more from a contract that was based heavily on playing time. His motorcycle accident jeopardizes the remainder of his contract.
What a frigging moron. For his sake I hope he's OK though.From NFL.com
Winslow's incentive-laden, six-year, $40 million contract is littered with language that forbids "hazardous activities" such as "motorcycling." This means that Winslow has put the majority of the contract at risk. The Browns now could ask Winslow to return the $4.4 million option bonus they paid him March 1, as well as a significant portion of the $6 million signing bonus they paid him last year.
Then there are the salary escalators in Winslow's contract, none of which he can achieve if he's not on the field. With his latest injuries, Winslow stands to lose a $2 million salary escalator in 2006, another $3 million salary escalator in 2007, and salary escalators throughout his deal that are scheduled to run through 2009.
This says nothing of his base salary, which he could not collect without playing. Winslow already lost $5.4 million worth of incentives last season when he broke his leg. Now he stands to lose millions more from a contract that was based heavily on playing time. His motorcycle accident jeopardizes the remainder of his contract.
I hope he's okay, but I think he's a big time dope (and an egotistical ##### too).From the latest Browns press release read on WTAM 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland:
+internal injuries
+swelling in right shoulder
+swelling in right knee
They claim that the extent of the injuries are unclear because they are waiting for the swelling to go down.
edit: clarified it is swelling in his shoulder, not elbow.
Geez...I may make more money this year than Winsl...oh hold on. Welcome to McDonald's, may I take your order?What a frigging moron. For his sake I hope he's OK though.From NFL.com
Winslow's incentive-laden, six-year, $40 million contract is littered with language that forbids "hazardous activities" such as "motorcycling." This means that Winslow has put the majority of the contract at risk. The Browns now could ask Winslow to return the $4.4 million option bonus they paid him March 1, as well as a significant portion of the $6 million signing bonus they paid him last year.
Then there are the salary escalators in Winslow's contract, none of which he can achieve if he's not on the field. With his latest injuries, Winslow stands to lose a $2 million salary escalator in 2006, another $3 million salary escalator in 2007, and salary escalators throughout his deal that are scheduled to run through 2009.
This says nothing of his base salary, which he could not collect without playing. Winslow already lost $5.4 million worth of incentives last season when he broke his leg. Now he stands to lose millions more from a contract that was based heavily on playing time. His motorcycle accident jeopardizes the remainder of his contract.
He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.I hope he's okay, but I think he's a big time dope (and an egotistical ##### too).From the latest Browns press release read on WTAM 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland:
+internal injuries
+swelling in right shoulder
+swelling in right knee
They claim that the extent of the injuries are unclear because they are waiting for the swelling to go down.
edit: clarified it is swelling in his shoulder, not elbow.
Wisdom is what you get right after you needed it.He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.
You make an excellent point. However, I don't think most 21 year old NFL players are egotistial pricks, so he must have done something special to make me feel this way about him. Now, people change over time, he could become a great person who contributes to society and is a positive role model, but right now I think he's a dope.He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.I hope he's okay, but I think he's a big time dope (and an egotistical ##### too).From the latest Browns press release read on WTAM 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland:
+internal injuries
+swelling in right shoulder
+swelling in right knee
They claim that the extent of the injuries are unclear because they are waiting for the swelling to go down.
edit: clarified it is swelling in his shoulder, not elbow.
Real photoHere is actual footage from Kellen's motorcycle accident . . .
*** WARNING **** it's not pretty - but it IS safe for work . . .
http://www.big-boys.com/articles/brandnewbike.html![]()
POSTED 10:28 p.m. EDT, May 2, 2005 WINSLOW TO LOSE MORE THAN $9 MILLION? Setting aside for now the question of whether Browns tight end Kellen Winslow should have been riding a motorcycle as he still rehabs from a broken leg that scuttled his 2004 rookie season (and prevented him from earning a big-money bonus payment by failing to participate in 30 percent of the team's offensive snaps), we've gotten a look-see at Winslow's contract, which indicates that he shouldn't have been riding a motorcycle at all. Ever. Period. As a general matter, Winslow has breached Paragraph 3 of his contract, which prevents him from "engag[ing] in any activity other than football which may involve a significant risk of personal injury." And this breach could have significant consequences. Winslow's motorcycling allows the team (if it so chooses) to recover $5 million of his initial signing bonus and the full $4.4125 million of his option bonus triggered at the outset of the 2005 league year, $2.4125 million of which won't actually be paid to Winslow until July 15. So the total potential price tag on Winslow's deliberate failure to comply with the terms of his contract is a whopping $9.4125 million. Under the contract, Winslow becomes potentially responsible to pay back the bonus money due to "injury as a result of a breach of Paragraph 3 of the Contract" or "as a result of participation in hazardous activities which involve a significant risk of personal injury and are non-football in nature, including but not limited to skydiving, hang gliding, mountain climbing, auto racing, motorcycling, scuba diving, or skiing." (Emphasis added.) The bottom line is that, under the terms of Winslow's deal, getting injured while motorcycling is no different that walking away from his contractual obligations, a la Ricky Williams did nearly a year ago. In either case, the club can recover bonus money. And in Winslow's case, he could end up forking over more than $9 million. The bigger question is whether the Browns should make a grab for Winslow's $9 million. Since the guy that drafted Winslow is long gone and given that we can't imagine Winslow and 2005 first-round pick Braylon Edwards co-existing in the same conference much less in the same locker room, we think the Browns should send Winslow a bill for $9.4125 million, and then let nature take its course. If nothing else, such a move could help the Browns recoup a major chunk of Butch Davis' buyout.
Sorry, but that's just a cop-out. I believe that if you took a random sampling of 21 year olds and allowed them to sign an 8-digit contract to do their chosen line of work for 6 years with the condition that they not partake in hazardous activities such as motorcycling for the life of the contract or they risk forfeiting the bulk of the contract, an overwhelming majority of them would be smart enough not to get on a friggin' bike for six years.He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.I hope he's okay, but I think he's a big time dope (and an egotistical ##### too).From the latest Browns press release read on WTAM 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland:
+internal injuries
+swelling in right shoulder
+swelling in right knee
They claim that the extent of the injuries are unclear because they are waiting for the swelling to go down.
edit: clarified it is swelling in his shoulder, not elbow.
Just read that myself, and I personally love the idea. His leg injury appears to be lingering, and if the Browns can get back all of their bonus money, all they are out is the draft pick, which was made by the Davis-organization. If he does heal properly, he'll be tradeable, though they won't get great value for him, as I would assume any attempt at recovering his bonus would cause a major rift between the Browns and the Postons/Winslow.From Pro Football Talk, Winslow could lose $9 mil.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm
POSTED 10:28 p.m. EDT, May 2, 2005
WINSLOW TO LOSE MORE THAN $9 MILLION?
Setting aside for now the question of whether Browns tight end Kellen Winslow should have been riding a motorcycle as he still rehabs from a broken leg that scuttled his 2004 rookie season (and prevented him from earning a big-money bonus payment by failing to participate in 30 percent of the team's offensive snaps), we've gotten a look-see at Winslow's contract, which indicates that he shouldn't have been riding a motorcycle at all. Ever. Period.
As a general matter, Winslow has breached Paragraph 3 of his contract, which prevents him from "engag[ing] in any activity other than football which may involve a significant risk of personal injury."
And this breach could have significant consequences. Winslow's motorcycling allows the team (if it so chooses) to recover $5 million of his initial signing bonus and the full $4.4125 million of his option bonus triggered at the outset of the 2005 league year, $2.4125 million of which won't actually be paid to Winslow until July 15.
So the total potential price tag on Winslow's deliberate failure to comply with the terms of his contract is a whopping $9.4125 million.
Under the contract, Winslow becomes potentially responsible to pay back the bonus money due to "injury as a result of a breach of Paragraph 3 of the Contract" or "as a result of participation in hazardous activities which involve a significant risk of personal injury and are non-football in nature, including but not limited to skydiving, hang gliding, mountain climbing, auto racing, motorcycling, scuba diving, or skiing." (Emphasis added.)
The bottom line is that, under the terms of Winslow's deal, getting injured while motorcycling is no different that walking away from his contractual obligations, a la Ricky Williams did nearly a year ago.
In either case, the club can recover bonus money.
And in Winslow's case, he could end up forking over more than $9 million.
The bigger question is whether the Browns should make a grab for Winslow's $9 million. Since the guy that drafted Winslow is long gone and given that we can't imagine Winslow and 2005 first-round pick Braylon Edwards co-existing in the same conference much less in the same locker room, we think the Browns should send Winslow a bill for $9.4125 million, and then let nature take its course.
If nothing else, such a move could help the Browns recoup a major chunk of Butch Davis' buyout.
I tend to agree that they should take back the $9M. Questions:1. If he is forced to repay the bonus money, is it like it never happened? This is important for (a) implications to the Browns' cap if they cut or trade him and (b) implications to another team that trades for him.Just read that myself, and I personally love the idea. His leg injury appears to be lingering, and if the Browns can get back all of their bonus money, all they are out is the draft pick, which was made by the Davis-organization. If he does heal properly, he'll be tradeable, though they won't get great value for him, as I would assume any attempt at recovering his bonus would cause a major rift between the Browns and the Postons/Winslow.From Pro Football Talk, Winslow could lose $9 mil.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm
POSTED 10:28 p.m. EDT, May 2, 2005
WINSLOW TO LOSE MORE THAN $9 MILLION?
Setting aside for now the question of whether Browns tight end Kellen Winslow should have been riding a motorcycle as he still rehabs from a broken leg that scuttled his 2004 rookie season (and prevented him from earning a big-money bonus payment by failing to participate in 30 percent of the team's offensive snaps), we've gotten a look-see at Winslow's contract, which indicates that he shouldn't have been riding a motorcycle at all. Ever. Period.
As a general matter, Winslow has breached Paragraph 3 of his contract, which prevents him from "engag[ing] in any activity other than football which may involve a significant risk of personal injury."
And this breach could have significant consequences. Winslow's motorcycling allows the team (if it so chooses) to recover $5 million of his initial signing bonus and the full $4.4125 million of his option bonus triggered at the outset of the 2005 league year, $2.4125 million of which won't actually be paid to Winslow until July 15.
So the total potential price tag on Winslow's deliberate failure to comply with the terms of his contract is a whopping $9.4125 million.
Under the contract, Winslow becomes potentially responsible to pay back the bonus money due to "injury as a result of a breach of Paragraph 3 of the Contract" or "as a result of participation in hazardous activities which involve a significant risk of personal injury and are non-football in nature, including but not limited to skydiving, hang gliding, mountain climbing, auto racing, motorcycling, scuba diving, or skiing." (Emphasis added.)
The bottom line is that, under the terms of Winslow's deal, getting injured while motorcycling is no different that walking away from his contractual obligations, a la Ricky Williams did nearly a year ago.
In either case, the club can recover bonus money.
And in Winslow's case, he could end up forking over more than $9 million.
The bigger question is whether the Browns should make a grab for Winslow's $9 million. Since the guy that drafted Winslow is long gone and given that we can't imagine Winslow and 2005 first-round pick Braylon Edwards co-existing in the same conference much less in the same locker room, we think the Browns should send Winslow a bill for $9.4125 million, and then let nature take its course.
If nothing else, such a move could help the Browns recoup a major chunk of Butch Davis' buyout.
I agree Brew. I do feel for the Browns and their fans with all the bad luck they've had since returning. But this isn't over yet. Winslow may yet recover and get on the field. Only time will tell.As for the money, I'm ok with the Browns expecting their money back if it comes down to that. Clearly, Winslow knew better. And if he didn't then he doesn't need to be having that kind of money without an understanding of what's expected. Often, players think their responsibility to the organization ends at the end of the 4th qtr when in reality it runs all year long.This is really a sad situation. Wasted Talent!!! Damn this sucks!
Twice. But then again I am in a dynasty league, so that isn't as important as what he does in the next few.Still think Troupe was better than Kellen heads up (and drafted that way). Even if we ignore that Kellen is a massively arrogant, egotistical, and blindingly stupid soldier.Really. How often did you start Troupe last year?
You got that from "Junk is what to you right before you throw it"..correct? come on....come clean...admit it... admit it.Wisdom is what you get right after you needed it.He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.
Winslow was a long-term investment made by the previous management. IF they can take away all of his bonus money, and pay him minimum salaries for 4 years, or trade him, and take no resulting cap hit.I don't think they take back any cash. Winslow is a long term investment for the Browns and they would pretty much guaratee an eventual holdout or losing him for sure after the first contract is up or the need to tag him when it is up.
1. A) Browns would be off the hook for the rest of his bonus payments and would get a credit for those already made. B) the team that trades for him would only owe him salary, but he'd surely demand a new contract upon being traded.2) Contract stays the same...he just violated a clause that could force him to repay his bonus.I tend to agree that they should take back the $9M. Questions:
1. If he is forced to repay the bonus money, is it like it never happened? This is important for (a) implications to the Browns' cap if they cut or trade him and (b) implications to another team that trades for him.
2. If he is forced to repay the bonus money, is it because his contract is voided, or is it still binding? That is, would he still be a Brown? You mentioned trading him above, which would indicate his contract is still binding.
3. If he is forced to repay the bonus money and remains a Brown, what would his trade market be? Granted, there are injury & maturity issues, but if his bonus was voided he would come awfully cheap for the other team, cap wise... right?
You know what? I disagree. I think in a random sampling of 21 year olds, you'll get a healthy amount of people who will do very dumb things, money or not. The difference is not all of them get newspaper headlines when they do it.Sorry, but that's just a cop-out. I believe that if you took a random sampling of 21 year olds and allowed them to sign an 8-digit contract to do their chosen line of work for 6 years with the condition that they not partake in hazardous activities such as motorcycling for the life of the contract or they risk forfeiting the bulk of the contract, an overwhelming majority of them would be smart enough not to get on a friggin' bike for six years.He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.I hope he's okay, but I think he's a big time dope (and an egotistical ##### too).From the latest Browns press release read on WTAM 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland:
+internal injuries
+swelling in right shoulder
+swelling in right knee
They claim that the extent of the injuries are unclear because they are waiting for the swelling to go down.
edit: clarified it is swelling in his shoulder, not elbow.
In what way does this contradict the assertion that he's an egotistical dope? He's not the only egotistical dope in the world, but he is an egotistical dope.You know what? I disagree. I think in a random sampling of 21 year olds, you'll get a healthy amount of people who will do very dumb things, money or not. The difference is not all of them get newspaper headlines when they do it.Sorry, but that's just a cop-out. I believe that if you took a random sampling of 21 year olds and allowed them to sign an 8-digit contract to do their chosen line of work for 6 years with the condition that they not partake in hazardous activities such as motorcycling for the life of the contract or they risk forfeiting the bulk of the contract, an overwhelming majority of them would be smart enough not to get on a friggin' bike for six years.He's 21. Its hard to find many people that age who are mature.I hope he's okay, but I think he's a big time dope (and an egotistical ##### too).From the latest Browns press release read on WTAM 1100 AM radio out of Cleveland:
+internal injuries
+swelling in right shoulder
+swelling in right knee
They claim that the extent of the injuries are unclear because they are waiting for the swelling to go down.
edit: clarified it is swelling in his shoulder, not elbow.
I am not superstitious but I am really starting to wonder if the Browns really are cursed. How many draft picks can one team lose? I may have to drop Edwards down on my rookie draft list.I used to think of these types of things happening to Cleveland sports teams/players as 'unbelievable'. I now consider everything bad thing that happens in Cleveland sports as 'believable'.This is unbelievable. Wimslow is rehabbing from a leg injury trying to get ready to play this. What is he doing on a motorcycle? Not smart if you ask me.
I've been saying since last April that Troupe was going to be the better pro with the better numbers. KWII could become the Sam Bowie of the NFL with his injuries ...Just a quick thought: the NFLPA is going to have a lot to say if the Browns try to recoup that bonus money. I dont question that it is clearly stated in the contract, but realistically once the lawyers get involved its not going to be that simple. The last thing the Browns want is a protracted lawsuit that is going to hurt team morale for a long time. I would imagine if they really chill on Winslow or if he cant go they will cut a deal.
I can't understand why people keep coming into this thread to pat themselves on the back for liking Troupe better than Winslow last year. wtf... Man, you've got no idea who the better pro is or who would put up better numbers because Winslow hasn't even really seen the field yet.Congrats on Troupe being healthy and looking good so far, but unless you were predicting that Winslow would have a string of serious injuries that would either severely hamper his development or ruin his career completely, you've really got nothing to brag about.I've been saying since last April that Troupe was going to be the better pro with the better numbers. KWII could become the Sam Bowie of the NFL with his injuries ...
A motorcycle accident might have Kellen Winslow's status for the 2005 season in question.Winslow, the Browns' first-round draft choice in 2004, has swelling in his right knee and shoulder after he flipped over the handlebars during a crash Sunday evening.Winslow was treated for internal injuries Monday at the Cleveland Clinic, but the team said those injuries were stable and not serious.The swelling in the knee, though, could indicate a bigger problem that won't be known until Winslow is examined further.WebMD.com lists swelling as a symptom of varying degrees of ligament tears. If Winslow tore a ligament, he could be out for an extended time.
You are finally starting to notice, eh?Edwards will get hurt too. Watch and see.I am not superstitious but I am really starting to wonder if the Browns really are cursed. How many draft picks can one team lose? I may have to drop Edwards down on my rookie draft list.I used to think of these types of things happening to Cleveland sports teams/players as 'unbelievable'. I now consider everything bad thing that happens in Cleveland sports as 'believable'.This is unbelievable. Wimslow is rehabbing from a leg injury trying to get ready to play this. What is he doing on a motorcycle? Not smart if you ask me.![]()
mbuehner, not picking on you but just picking up some of your thoughts. The verbage in the contract was very clear regarding those activities deemed hazardous by the Browns organization. This type of clause, as well as morality clauses, are common place these days. For a recent example of a team exercising their right on the morality clause, see D. Neagle and the Rockies. For a recent example of a player testing the boundaries of the hazardous activities conditions, see Jeff Kent and the Giants; Boone and the Yankees. Different sport but same type of agreement. It was stated mutliple times throughout the agreement that Winslow was forbidden from skiiing, water skiing, sky diving, hang gliding and motorcycle riding. Winslow II is in clear violation and the NFLPA, Potson's or any attornies that are retained do not have a leg to stand on in this one, opinion. I am not even sure the level of involvement the NFLPA will have, if this situation unfolds at a worse case scenario pace.There is no grey area. This case, assuming it is that bad, is black and white. I do not doubt the NLFPA will make sure their member's rights are protected and he is given due process but they have no ground to stand on beyond that. The agreement could be rendered null and void. That is beyond the union's ability to control. The Browns have all the leverage on this one and have been afforded an opportunity for retribution. If, which is a big if, Winslow cannot perform or has sustained another injury that will temporary limit his ability to perform or suffered an injury that will hault his career, then the team is well within their right to take legal action. I look at the other side of the team morale aspect that was mentioned. If the Browns fail to act, what message does that send to other players held to the same type of labor agreement? There is a fair amount of exposure the Browns franchise would inherit should they elect not to act.Just a quick thought: the NFLPA is going to have a lot to say if the Browns try to recoup that bonus money. I dont question that it is clearly stated in the contract, but realistically once the lawyers get involved its not going to be that simple. The last thing the Browns want is a protracted lawsuit that is going to hurt team morale for a long time. I would imagine if they really chill on Winslow or if he cant go they will cut a deal.
Agree JWood…depending on the severity of the injuries they’ll work out some sort of agreement that benefits all parties.The Browns are in an interesting position here. On one hand, they have the right to ask for a big chunk of their $$$ back and certainly Winslow deserves to face the repercussions of his poor decision. On the other hand, you risk alienating and ruining a relationship with a player that by most accounts is supposed to be one of the, if not THE, cornerstones of your offensive resurgence.
If I were the Brownies, I would ask for a portion of the bonus back because not taking any of it sets a bad precedent. Something like 1-year of the pro rata would send a message to the team but still not materially change the contract parameters Winslow is working under.
I was waiting for someone making the point that you can't just take money away from a guy, especially one like Winslow, and expect him to remain happy with the team. Either they get their money back and cut/trade him or let him keep it and hope he returns healthy this year.Agree JWood…depending on the severity of the injuries they’ll work out some sort of agreement that benefits all parties.The Browns are in an interesting position here. On one hand, they have the right to ask for a big chunk of their $$$ back and certainly Winslow deserves to face the repercussions of his poor decision. On the other hand, you risk alienating and ruining a relationship with a player that by most accounts is supposed to be one of the, if not THE, cornerstones of your offensive resurgence.
If I were the Brownies, I would ask for a portion of the bonus back because not taking any of it sets a bad precedent. Something like 1-year of the pro rata would send a message to the team but still not materially change the contract parameters Winslow is working under.
Ah, there are about ten million lawyers that just start salivating when they hear that. There is always grey area. If the lawyer is good enough there is always a leg to stand on. The NFLPA will back Winslow if they try to get all the bonus money back, purely out of selfish principle. They may lose, but thats not the point. The will fight the fight because thats what unions do. Unions take up hopeless cases all the time because in the long run it puts them in a stronger position by making the organizations eager to settle rather than run up interminable legal fees. You can bet Winslow will lawyer up and you can bet the NFLPA will back him. They may well lose but far more likely the Browns will cut a deal rather than suffer the media nightmare and the legal costs. The Bulls situation with Jay Williams was ever more cut and dried than this one and they cut a deal with him even though they had every right to completely void his contract, and Williams wasnt even really a big name. I assure you it wasnt done out of compassion.There is no grey area.
This whole thing just keeps getting better!!!
Police said Winslow did not have a learner’s permit and could face charges for that and reckless operation.
According to Charlie Frye, Edwards already has...pulled groin but he's still been able to practiceYou are finally starting to notice, eh?Edwards will get hurt too. Watch and see.I am not superstitious but I am really starting to wonder if the Browns really are cursed. How many draft picks can one team lose? I may have to drop Edwards down on my rookie draft list.I used to think of these types of things happening to Cleveland sports teams/players as 'unbelievable'. I now consider everything bad thing that happens in Cleveland sports as 'believable'.This is unbelievable. Wimslow is rehabbing from a leg injury trying to get ready to play this. What is he doing on a motorcycle? Not smart if you ask me.![]()