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Kentucky Nurse Video Records Conversation As She's Fired For Refusing Vaccine ( 9/15/21 21:22 PST) (2 Viewers)

Amused to Death said:
So you really want to make the argument that sexuality is a choice? Hey, I'm not going to judge if you can "perform" for either sex. Again, I support your lifestyle.
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yes, sexuality is a choice whether you want to admit it or not

tonight you can sleep with just about whomever or whatever you want to for the most part yes

prison is a good example - where 50% or more guys have same sex sex ... a far far higher % that in the non-prison world .... they make choices while in prison 

choice

 
Stealthycat said:
yes, sexuality is a choice whether you want to admit it or not

tonight you can sleep with just about whomever or whatever you want to for the most part yes

prison is a good example - where 50% or more guys have same sex sex ... a far far higher % that in the non-prison world .... they make choices while in prison 

choice
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No. According to the APA, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. For most people it is hard-wired.

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/sexual-orientation

Yes, you can choose to have sex with whomever or whatever you want provided it is not illegal in your jurisdiction. However, that doesn't change what your sexual identity is. 

 
squistion said:
28 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
yes, sexuality is a choice whether you want to admit it or not

tonight you can sleep with just about whomever or whatever you want to for the most part yes

prison is a good example - where 50% or more guys have same sex sex ... a far far higher % that in the non-prison world .... they make choices while in prison 

choice
Expand  
Click to expand...


No. According to the APA, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. For most people it is hard-wired.

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/sexual-orientation

Yes, you can choose to have sex with whomever or whatever you want provided it is not illegal in your jurisdiction. However, that doesn't change what your sexual identity is. 
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Yes, its scientifically accepted that sexuality is in fact NOT a choice.

Being a bigot however, still is.

 
The quicksand is grabbing quite a few of you.  Tread lightly my friends, the journey you are embarking on is fraught with frustration and you will only end up where you began.    

 
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Amused to Death said:
And herein lies the offensive part....
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have choice of sexuality shouldn't offend you and saying it shouldn't either

Sheryl Swoopse, Anne Heche, Elton John .... many people have changed choices on their sexuality and I suppose it worked well for them, they look happy enough. 

 
Stealthycat said:
have choice of sexuality shouldn't offend you and saying it shouldn't either

Sheryl Swoopse, Anne Heche, Elton John .... many people have changed choices on their sexuality and I suppose it worked well for them, they look happy enough. 
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No, Elton John didn't change his choices on his sexuality. He changed how he publicly labeled his sexuality (for obvious reasons). He was closeted until he came out as "bisexual" in 1976 (which no one really believed) and has been openly gay since 1988 and entered into a civil partnership with another guy in 2005.

 
[scooter] said:
Because the unvaxed are putting others at higher risk.

(And before anyone tries to play the Whatabout Card: I am fully aware of the science indicating that vaccinated people are capable of spreading disease. But guess what? Science also indicates that vaccinated people are more likely to wear a mask, more likely to follow social distancing guidelines, less likely to get COVID, less likely to cough all over people if they have it, and much less likely to take up a precious hospital bed. So, get that YouTube video garbage psuedoscience outta here.)
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No idea what video you're referring to... Scooter, my boy.  But I love your characterization of the irresponsible unvaxed, the single cause of our troubles, coughing over the innocent vaxed as they sleep.

In this country, with about 3/4 of those above 12 receiving at least one dose and the UK (with 80% fully vaccinated), daily infection rates are pretty much as high as they've been.   Not to mention an additional percentage who've had the virus and should have some natural immunity.  Do those numbers add up?

Maybe we don't know as much as we think we do...  But the vaccine is not as effective against new variants and loses efficacy sooner than expected... possibly in just a matter of months.  The vaccines lessen the severity, ultimately lowering the risk of hospitalization or death.   While that's great, the vaxed are still getting sick and passing on the disease (as you acknowledge).  Truth be told, we don't know the actual rate, as one would expect more asymptomatic cases among the vaxed.

One concern with the vax is actually a false sense of security.  I've observed many drop the COVID precautions.  I know you believe it is the other way around, but I suspect the studies you've referenced are skewed by the anti-vax segment that never followed such precautions in the first place.

So, a couple points...  I don't believe in the persecution of the unvaxed, especially to the extent of taking away their livelihood.  I also believe the situation is complicated and, as frustrating as the pandemic is, we should avoid the tendency to try an lay blame on a single cause.

 
DropKick said:
No idea what video you're referring to... Scooter, my boy.  But I love your characterization of the irresponsible unvaxed, the single cause of our troubles, coughing over the innocent vaxed as they sleep.

In this country, with about 3/4 of those above 12 receiving at least one dose and the UK (with 80% fully vaccinated), daily infection rates are pretty much as high as they've been.   Not to mention an additional percentage who've had the virus and should have some natural immunity.  Do those numbers add up?

Maybe we don't know as much as we think we do...  But the vaccine is not as effective against new variants and loses efficacy sooner than expected... possibly in just a matter of months.  The vaccines lessen the severity, ultimately lowering the risk of hospitalization or death.   While that's great, the vaxed are still getting sick and passing on the disease (as you acknowledge).  Truth be told, we don't know the actual rate, as one would expect more asymptomatic cases among the vaxed.

One concern with the vax is actually a false sense of security.  I've observed many drop the COVID precautions.  I know you believe it is the other way around, but I suspect the studies you've referenced are skewed by the anti-vax segment that never followed such precautions in the first place.

So, a couple points...  I don't believe in the persecution of the unvaxed, especially to the extent of taking away their livelihood.  I also believe the situation is complicated and, as frustrating as the pandemic is, we should avoid the tendency to try an lay blame on a single cause.
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There's a lot of truth in this post.  For example, it's undeniably true that lots of people have stopped taking any precautions against covid after being vaccinated.  I know that because I'm one of those people.  (Scooter is also right that vaccinated people are more likely to wear masks than unvaccinated people, but that's true for reasons divorced from rationality -- a large subset of unvaxed people are basically living in denial about the existence of covid-19, and a moderate subset of vaxed people are the neurotic type who are still double-masked and still probably cooking their mail). 

You're also right that case counts are higher than we would have predicted six months ago.  One possible response would be to hand-wave that fact away by saying "but, delta!" and that's not a bad response.  Delta is a lot more contagious than alpha.  If we had started with delta, last year's numbers would have been way worse, and comparing last year's alpha numbers to this year's delta numbers is kind of an apples and oranges comparison.  

But really I think this is an argument for not worrying so much about case counts.  I mean, we want to know how many cases are floating around out there because that's an interesting data point, but CASE COUNTS ARE GOING UP isn't really a reason to freak out.  In 2020, rising case counts inevitably meant rising rates of hospitalization and increasing rates of death.  In 2021, rising case counts among the vaccinated means rising rates of feeling kind of lousy and taking a few days off work.  It's just not that big a deal any more.  That lack of downside risk is why people like me made a decision to resume normal life, and it's also a good reason for changing the metrics that we use to gauge the severity of the pandemic. What we really care about are hospitalization and deaths, not cases.  So we should pay a lot of attention to the first two and not so much to the other.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
There's a lot of truth in this post.  For example, it's undeniably true that lots of people have stopped taking any precautions against covid after being vaccinated.  I know that because I'm one of those people.  (Scooter is also right that vaccinated people are more likely to wear masks than unvaccinated people, but that's true for reasons divorced from rationality -- a large subset of unvaxed people are basically living in denial about the existence of covid-19, and a moderate subset of vaxed people are the neurotic type who are still double-masked and still probably cooking their mail). 

You're also right that case counts are higher than we would have predicted six months ago.  One possible response would be to hand-wave that fact away by saying "but, delta!" and that's not a bad response.  Delta is a lot more contagious than alpha.  If we had started with delta, last year's numbers would have been way worse, and comparing last year's alpha numbers to this year's delta numbers is kind of an apples and oranges comparison.  

But really I think this is an argument for not worrying so much about case counts.  I mean, we want to know how many cases are floating around out there because that's an interesting data point, but CASE COUNTS ARE GOING UP isn't really a reason to freak out.  In 2020, rising case counts inevitably meant rising rates of hospitalization and increasing rates of death.  In 2021, rising case counts among the vaccinated means rising rates of feeling kind of lousy and taking a few days off work.  It's just not that big a deal any more.  That lack of downside risk is why people like me made a decision to resume normal life, and it's also a good reason for changing the metrics that we use to gauge the severity of the pandemic. What we really care about are hospitalization and deaths, not cases.  So we should pay a lot of attention to the first two and not so much to the other.
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But, just like last time, deaths are increasing along with case counts.  It's almost like case counts are a leading indicator. 

Now, the ratios are different, but the timing and shapes of the death curves are similar to previous spikes.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
There's a lot of truth in this post.  For example, it's undeniably true that lots of people have stopped taking any precautions against covid after being vaccinated.  I know that because I'm one of those people.  (Scooter is also right that vaccinated people are more likely to wear masks than unvaccinated people, but that's true for reasons divorced from rationality -- a large subset of unvaxed people are basically living in denial about the existence of covid-19, and a moderate subset of vaxed people are the neurotic type who are still double-masked and still probably cooking their mail). 

You're also right that case counts are higher than we would have predicted six months ago.  One possible response would be to hand-wave that fact away by saying "but, delta!" and that's not a bad response.  Delta is a lot more contagious than alpha.  If we had started with delta, last year's numbers would have been way worse, and comparing last year's alpha numbers to this year's delta numbers is kind of an apples and oranges comparison.  

But really I think this is an argument for not worrying so much about case counts.  I mean, we want to know how many cases are floating around out there because that's an interesting data point, but CASE COUNTS ARE GOING UP isn't really a reason to freak out.  In 2020, rising case counts inevitably meant rising rates of hospitalization and increasing rates of death.  In 2021, rising case counts among the vaccinated means rising rates of feeling kind of lousy and taking a few days off work.  It's just not that big a deal any more.  That lack of downside risk is why people like me made a decision to resume normal life, and it's also a good reason for changing the metrics that we use to gauge the severity of the pandemic. What we really care about are hospitalization and deaths, not cases.  So we should pay a lot of attention to the first two and not so much to the other.
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I would also argue that the reason case counts are going up is we, as a society, have almost completely abandoned any mitigation efforts (your local area may differ).  Masks are not commonly worn publicly (in my state of SC, anyways), we are going mass gatherings again, and kids are in school full time.  It's as if we are back to pre-COVID life.

 
moleculo said:
I would also argue that the reason case counts are going up is we, as a society, have almost completely abandoned any mitigation efforts (your local area may differ).  Masks are not commonly worn publicly (in my state of SC, anyways), we are going mass gatherings again, and kids are in school full time.  It's as if we are back to pre-COVID life.
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But that's a good thing. Vaccinated people should be back to pre-covid life.  That's going to cause more breakthrough infections, but so what.

Obviously it's different for unvaccinated people, but I stopped worrying about them quite a while ago.    

 
moleculo said:
But, just like last time, deaths are increasing along with case counts.  It's almost like case counts are a leading indicator. 

Now, the ratios are different, but the timing and shapes of the death curves are similar to previous spikes.
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Yep, and hospitals in some areas are close to the breaking point. HI is a good example, where we're cancelling elective procedures and erecting tents on hospital lawns. Again. This slow-motion train wreck was painfully obvious to anyone watching case counts over the last month.

But people want to declare the pandemic is over, because masks are uncomfortable and antivax behavior indefensible.

 
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-fish- said:
Kentucky's an at-will state.   They don't need cause.

Paying unemployment is completely unrelated to whether they can terminate over vaccination status.  
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Every State is an at-will State (except I think Montana).  But firing "for cause" and just terminating employment are different.  

 
zoonation said:
So is this your argument against getting vaccinated?  Are you saying vaccines are not efficacious?
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A person vaccination status is irrelevant.  If you are scared get vaccinated.  If you are elderly get vaccinated.  If you have some comorbidity get vaccinated.  100% US vaccinations is pointless to try to attain before going back to normal since we have too much contact from people of other countries most of which don't have access to the vaccine.  We can go through the circular arguments all day.

Me: Just go back to normal now.  Another persons vaccination status is irrelevant.

moops: We can't because we don't have 100% vaccinations.  The unvaccinated are causing increases in hospitalizations, variants and breakthrough cases.

Me: But hundreds of thousands of people are crossing the border every month, most of whom most likely aren't vaccinated.  Haiti has a 1% vaccination rate.  Mexico is 32%.  If you're lucky, 2 out of 10 of the millions of border crossers since February have not been vaccinated.  If they come into contact with someone, then they have the potential to spread COVID.    

moops: The border crossers don't matter if the people are vaccinated.

Me: Then, just go back to normal now since another persons vaccination status is irrelevant.  

moops: We can't because we don't have 100% vaccinations.

Rinse and repeat.

 
DropKick said:
In this country, with about 3/4 of those above 12 receiving at least one dose and the UK (with 80% fully vaccinated), daily infection rates are pretty much as high as they've been.   Not to mention an additional percentage who've had the virus and should have some natural immunity.  Do those numbers add up?
Click to expand...
Infection rates are high because we've pulled back on mask mandates and social distance restrictions.

A better way to examine infection rates is to compare the current spread in "low vax" states to the current spread in "high vax" states. And guess what? Low-vax states tend to have higher infection rates.

(Of course, this method also has its flaws, as no two states are exactly alike -- with different climates, different population densities, different demographics, different social distancing rules, etc. But when you average it all out, the low-vax states are weighing us down.)

And that doesn't even address the other reason why unvaxed people are putting the rest of society at (higher) risk: they are taking up precious space at hospitals. Not only are they blocking others from getting life-saving surgery, but they are increasing the tax burden on the rest of society.

 
Snotbubbles said:
Every State is an at-will State (except I think Montana).  But firing "for cause" and just terminating employment are different.  
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You keep making some distinction based on cause, which only affects unemployment.   They did not need cause to fire her.   They didn't need an employee handbook, and they didn't need to give her paperwork.

 
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Snotbubbles said:
moops: We can't because we don't have 100% vaccinations.  The unvaccinated are causing increases in hospitalizations, variants and breakthrough cases.

Me: But hundreds of thousands of people are crossing the border every month, most of whom most likely aren't vaccinated.  Haiti has a 1% vaccination rate.  Mexico is 32%.  If you're lucky, 2 out of 10 of the millions of border crossers since February have not been vaccinated.  If they come into contact with someone, then they have the potential to spread COVID.    
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The problem with your argument is that the hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated people crossing the border are not the ones taking up your places in the hospital.  The ones in the hospital are unvaccinated US citizens.

I'm pretty sure if there was an issue with immigrants taking up valuable places in your ICU wards, the first two pages of Fox's website would be plastered with it.

 
Chaz McNulty said:
The problem with your argument is that the hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated people crossing the border are not the ones taking up your places in the hospital.  The ones in the hospital are unvaccinated US citizens.

I'm pretty sure if there was an issue with immigrants taking up valuable places in your ICU wards, the first two pages of Fox's website would be plastered with it.
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I’m just glad the immigrants aren’t gay.

 
Snotbubbles said:
A person vaccination status is irrelevant.  If you are scared get vaccinated.  If you are elderly get vaccinated.  If you have some comorbidity get vaccinated.  100% US vaccinations is pointless to try to attain before going back to normal since we have too much contact from people of other countries most of which don't have access to the vaccine.  We can go through the circular arguments all day.

Me: Just go back to normal now.  Another persons vaccination status is irrelevant.

moops: We can't because we don't have 100% vaccinations.  The unvaccinated are causing increases in hospitalizations, variants and breakthrough cases.

Me: But hundreds of thousands of people are crossing the border every month, most of whom most likely aren't vaccinated.  Haiti has a 1% vaccination rate.  Mexico is 32%.  If you're lucky, 2 out of 10 of the millions of border crossers since February have not been vaccinated.  If they come into contact with someone, then they have the potential to spread COVID.    

moops: The border crossers don't matter if the people are vaccinated.

Me: Then, just go back to normal now since another persons vaccination status is irrelevant.  

moops: We can't because we don't have 100% vaccinations.

Rinse and repeat.
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So, I live in the most conservative province in Canada, and we did that this summer.  Stopped all contact tracing, no need to report symptoms.  Back to life as normal.  Our Premier promoted it as the "Best Summer Ever".  Fast forward to today and the hospital system has collapsed.  There are calls to send in the armed forces to assist.

 
zoonation said:
So, I live in the most conservative province in Canada, and we did that this summer.  Stopped all contact tracing, no need to report symptoms.  Back to life as normal.  Our Premier promoted it as the "Best Summer Ever".  Fast forward to today and the hospital system has collapsed.  There are calls to send in the armed forces to assist.
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People act like there are no consequences to their decisions.

And, when they find out - they are flabbergasted. 

 
-fish- said:
You keep making some distinction based on cause, which only affects unemployment.   They did not need cause to fire her.   They didn't need an employee handbook, and they didn't need to give her paperwork.
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You jumped in the discussion in the middle.  A poster said that she was fired "for cause".  

 
Chaz McNulty said:
The problem with your argument is that the hundreds of thousands of unvaccinated people crossing the border are not the ones taking up your places in the hospital.  The ones in the hospital are unvaccinated US citizens.

I'm pretty sure if there was an issue with immigrants taking up valuable places in your ICU wards, the first two pages of Fox's website would be plastered with it.
Click to expand...


The problem with your argument is that the migrants have contact with Americans, who have contact with other Americans, who have...

 
zoonation said:
So, I live in the most conservative province in Canada, and we did that this summer.  Stopped all contact tracing, no need to report symptoms.  Back to life as normal.  Our Premier promoted it as the "Best Summer Ever".  Fast forward to today and the hospital system has collapsed.  There are calls to send in the armed forces to assist.
Click to expand...


And yet here in America, we are firing our nurses and healthcare workers.  Glad I don't live in Canada.

 
Herb said:
Malpractice IMO. I've never been so happy to live in a blue state and work for a healthcare company that actually,  you know, allows science to guide the decision making process. 
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They were forced to because of Alabama's state law, but will follow a federal mandate if it's issued.  

 
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