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Kick Returner Thread (1 Viewer)

Desert_Power

Footballguy
New rule changes could lead to some interesting opportunities in FF leagues. I know there are a few leagues out there that count return yards, but many will include ST TDs for a player. Some leagues count KRTDs as part of a team defense score.

Creating this thread to keep track of any news and/or ideas on how teams will adapt to this new rule. There could be some situations where us Sharks can find an edge.
 
This is a great thread :hifive:

*Not an advertisement* Since 2001, I have used MFL for our league hosting(s).
The reason we pay for the site is because the scoring can really be dialed in (by Me).
For all the leagues I commish or co-commish, Kick and Punt return yardage is scored for all positions, except PK because they are not used in any of my leagues.

All the leagues I'm part of use IDP's. So, for the last several years I have been keeping track of Rookie CB's. Sometimes they come out of the box starting on D and playing special teams. Others just play teams. That doesn't make them useless because players get hurt and they get forced into the lineup. Week 10 is when you really want to start looking at those dudes.

WR's were the other choice. Most of the players from this position are the small gadget types. These players are not usable unless a league has a KR spot.
RB's will be used, but they will be the type that can't handle more than 150/175 attempts in a season. Those players are worthless unless a league has KR spot in the starting lineup.

My first thesis is that the usage will remain the same for WR/CB. RB will probably dwindle, just because of scarcity.
Lol, very bold prediction there, considering that the most drafted players were WR/CB this year.

I'll be keeping up. Thanks

:banned:
 
I figured we already had one of these but delighted someone took charge
MoP Jr had to explain the nuances of what has unfolded, some folks are going to be in shock Week 1 of the NFL season
The way I understand it, teams without explosive returners are going to be sad :sadbanana:
 
GMs may have targeted players with return ability in the later rounds. Such as Anthony Gould (IND) and Jacob Cowing (SF). I think MIA will try Jaylen Wright at kickoff return, Berrios could be cut.
 
New rule changes could lead to some interesting opportunities in FF leagues. I know there are a few leagues out there that count return yards, but many will include ST TDs for a player. Some leagues count KRTDs as part of a team defense score. Creating this thread to keep track of any news and/or ideas on how teams will adapt to this new rule. There could be some situations where us Sharks can find an edge.
Well done, you get an A+! Given that we're a distinct minority, I hope it's okay to give a plug for DEF/ST. This is for anyone, but in particular LM's looking to do something with DEF/ST in standard. This also will add a bit of something to your wire & even make the experience more fun, imo. I strongly recommend getting rid of that gawd-forsaken shutout bonus! lol Keep everything else of course, but in it's place add the return game. Doing only that & DEF goes from the unit/player (U/P) that is always losing you points to the U/P that never loses points, NEVER!! Plus the fact that they will score more.

As for the new rule, the kickoff takes place from the same spot. So if kicking the ball out of the back of the end-zone is still an objective, that remains unchanged. But if this new rule makes it easier for the coverage team to make the tackle inside the 25-yd line, then perhaps they'll be more of them kicked short. The rookie I like in this mold is Jamari Thrash, but I don't know whether Cleveland was the best landing spot.
 
Great thread. Two of my leagues start dedicated KR so I am always looking for information. I will post anything useful I find here.
 
The new kickoff return rules are going to make traditional kickoff returners less valuable. There isn't going to be as much open space running. It is going to be more like a rushing play with the rusher lined up very deep in the backfield.

As I posted in the Chargers thread, here are a couple good articles about the new kickoff rules from the Athletic:

Making sense of NFL’s new kickoff rule and what it means for next season (March 26)
How did new kickoff rules affect NFL Draft? ‘You can either complain or adapt’ (May 6)

As an example of a possible casualty on this front, I think the Chargers WR Derius Davis, who was 2nd team All Pro as a punt returner last season, is on the roster bubble and most likely will not make the final roster. Not that he was great at kickoff returns -- he was below average -- but he was the primary kickoff returner, and now that role may be better filled by a different kind of player.
 
All the leagues I'm part of use IDP's.
My one return yardage league is also my one IDP league.

A DB that returns kicks and/or punts can be a cheat code--this year in particular--and I think most of my league mates are sleeping on this leading up to the draft, because we only have to start 3 IDPs and therefore there isn't any real position scarcity. Therefore the IDPs are regarded mostly as a nuisance to keep up with or be penalized as opposed to rostering any depth at all.

Anyway, if you have names of DBs that are also returners--rookies or not--I would be most appreciative.
 
Anyway, if you have names of DBs that are also returners--rookies or not--I would be most appreciative.
Here is a link to FBG's current depth charts. It lists both kick and punt returners.

 
The new kickoff return rules are going to make traditional kickoff returners less valuable. There isn't going to be as much open space running. It is going to be more like a rushing play with the rusher lined up very deep in the backfield.

As I posted in the Chargers thread, here are a couple good articles about the new kickoff rules from the Athletic:

Making sense of NFL’s new kickoff rule and what it means for next season (March 26)
How did new kickoff rules affect NFL Draft? ‘You can either complain or adapt’ (May 6)

As an example of a possible casualty on this front, I think the Chargers WR Derius Davis, who was 2nd team All Pro as a punt returner last season, is on the roster bubble and most likely will not make the final roster. Not that he was great at kickoff returns -- he was below average -- but he was the primary kickoff returner, and now that role may be better filled by a different kind of player.
Good read, thanks for posting.

Extension of a rushing play immediately brings to mind 49ers, Dolphins, Eagles, and Steelers as teams to watch.
 
Touchbacks will likely dominate the NFL’s new kickoff

The XFL’s kickoff return was returned for an average position of 29 yards. The NFL moved the kickoff back five yards (along with a few other rule changes), so the expectation going into the season is that the starting field position spot will be around the 34-yard-line. Here’s the problem: The NFL didn’t adjust the penalty for a touchback to go along with that five-yard change, so touchbacks out the back of the end zone have a starting field position at the 30-yard-line...which could lead to just as many touchbacks as before.

If kicking teams are electing to allow return teams to field the ball, the main strategy is going to be a sort of long squib attempt. If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line. Under XFL rules, there was a hangtime penalty that was enforced to prevent these “long squib” attempts, but the NFL didn’t adopt it.

So you’re going to see one of two plays with the NFL’s rules: A kick out of the back of the end zone or a long squib that could lead to teams actually using two returners on the field at the same time rather than just the single returner that we’re used to...

Florio claims that one coach told him that teams “will choose to kick out of the end zone at the outset of the season, so that the play can be studied based on the teams that choose to be the guinea pigs for it.”
 
So to summarize the new kickoff rules as best I understand it in a hopefully easy to digest format:

Kickoff spot and other miscellaneous
  • Ball kicked from 35 as before.
  • If ball blows off tee twice, a kicking stick can be used instead of requiring a player to hold it. Nearest official will pick up stick immediately after the kick.

How teams line up, how carryover penalties affect things:
  • 10 Kicking team players line up with a foot on the receiving team's 40.
  • Max of 2 returners, lined up between 20 and goal line (the "Landing Zone").
  • Rest of receiving team lines up between their 30 and 35 (the "Setup Zone").
    • At least 7 receiving players must have a foot touching the 35 (the "Restraining Line").
    • Any players in the Setup Zone not touching the 35, must be outside the hash marks.
  • All penalties carrying over from a scoring play are now always applied to the Try (extra point). No choice to take them on the kickoff instead as could be done in the past.
  • Penalties on a Try that carry over, only move the ball location for the kick itself. All other player alignment, and the Landing Zone being the goal line to the 20, remain unchanged by penalty yardage.
  • I assume the normal 5 yard penalty for illegal formation would apply to violations, but haven't seen that explicitly said.

When players can move:
  • The 1-2 returners lined up between the goal and the 20, can move freely at any time before or after the kick.
  • Kicker can move after the kick, but cannot cross the 50 until the ball hits the ground or is fielded.
  • All other players on both teams cannot move until the kick hits the the ground or is fielded.
  • I assume the normal 5 yard penalty for offsides would apply to violations, but haven't seen that explicitly said.

Touchbacks, out of bounds, and fair catches:
  • Kick out of bounds is spotted at the 40 yard line (or 25 yards from the spot of kick if it wasn't kicked from the 35), same as before.
  • Kick hitting short of the 20 is treated as a ball out of bounds. Blown dead immediately, ball spotted at the 40 yard line (or 25 yards from the spot of the kick).
  • No fair catch or signal is allowed. Officials will blow the play dead.
    • The NFL summary says explicitly that the play will be blown dead, so I assume a penalty applies. But I haven't seen additional details. My best guess is the penalty for invalid fair catch signals would apply. Which if so would be dead ball at the spot plus loss of five yards.
  • Any kick going out the back of the endzone (regardless of where it hits): spotted at 30 yard line.
  • Kick hitting in end zone and downed in end zone: spotted at the 30 yard line.
  • Kick hitting between 20 and goal line, downed in endzone: spotted at the 20 yard line as before.
  • Sounds like no more automatic whistles for touchbacks: e.g. "... must be returned or downed by the receiving team".

Safety Kickoffs
  • After a safety, the kickoff follows the new format and rules, except:
    • Kick takes place from the kicking team's 20 yard line (as before).
    • Kicker may opt to use a kicking tee.

Onside Kicks

(Edited after hearing more details before Hall of Fame Game from Walt Anderson).
  • Onside kicks can only be attempted during 4th Quarter by a trailing team.
  • Must be declared to the officials.
  • Most current onside kickoff rules apply (like kicking team can't touch the ball until it reaches the receiving team's restraining line).
  • The one new rule is that if the ball goes 25 yards beyond the kicking spot without being touched, it is a 15 yard Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty. So for a normal kickoff spot at the 35, the receiving team would now get the ball at the kicking team 20, right at the edge of the red zone. This would prevent a team from declaring an onside kick, then kicking it deep.


If I have anything wrong there, let me know and I'll edit.
 
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Touchbacks will likely dominate the NFL’s new kickoff

The XFL’s kickoff return was returned for an average position of 29 yards. The NFL moved the kickoff back five yards (along with a few other rule changes), so the expectation going into the season is that the starting field position spot will be around the 34-yard-line. Here’s the problem: The NFL didn’t adjust the penalty for a touchback to go along with that five-yard change, so touchbacks out the back of the end zone have a starting field position at the 30-yard-line...which could lead to just as many touchbacks as before.

If kicking teams are electing to allow return teams to field the ball, the main strategy is going to be a sort of long squib attempt. If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line. Under XFL rules, there was a hangtime penalty that was enforced to prevent these “long squib” attempts, but the NFL didn’t adopt it.

So you’re going to see one of two plays with the NFL’s rules: A kick out of the back of the end zone or a long squib that could lead to teams actually using two returners on the field at the same time rather than just the single returner that we’re used to...

Florio claims that one coach told him that teams “will choose to kick out of the end zone at the outset of the season, so that the play can be studied based on the teams that choose to be the guinea pigs for it.”

:sadbanana:

I sure hope this isn't what will happen. Everyone was so excited about the new rules, teams were focused on signing guys with specific skills that would translate, and now we might not see any uptick in returns + they basically eliminated the possibility of a surprise onside kick.

Wonder if they have the flexibility to call a vote during/after preseason if it becomes obvious they goofed up the rule change?
 
Touchbacks will likely dominate the NFL’s new kickoff

The XFL’s kickoff return was returned for an average position of 29 yards. The NFL moved the kickoff back five yards (along with a few other rule changes), so the expectation going into the season is that the starting field position spot will be around the 34-yard-line. Here’s the problem: The NFL didn’t adjust the penalty for a touchback to go along with that five-yard change, so touchbacks out the back of the end zone have a starting field position at the 30-yard-line...which could lead to just as many touchbacks as before.

If kicking teams are electing to allow return teams to field the ball, the main strategy is going to be a sort of long squib attempt. If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line. Under XFL rules, there was a hangtime penalty that was enforced to prevent these “long squib” attempts, but the NFL didn’t adopt it.

So you’re going to see one of two plays with the NFL’s rules: A kick out of the back of the end zone or a long squib that could lead to teams actually using two returners on the field at the same time rather than just the single returner that we’re used to...

Florio claims that one coach told him that teams “will choose to kick out of the end zone at the outset of the season, so that the play can be studied based on the teams that choose to be the guinea pigs for it.”

:sadbanana:

I sure hope this isn't what will happen. Everyone was so excited about the new rules, teams were focused on signing guys with specific skills that would translate, and now we might not see any uptick in returns + they basically eliminated the possibility of a surprise onside kick.

Wonder if they have the flexibility to call a vote during/after preseason if it becomes obvious they goofed up the rule change?

That doesn't match what is on the NFL's page.

The only touchback that goes out to the 20 is one that lands between the 20 and goal line, then goes into the end zone and is downed.

If the ball goes out the back of the end zone, whether bouncing or on the fly, it always goes to the 30 yard line. Exception being if it lands short of the 20 initially then it's a penalty similar to kicking out of bounds.
 
Touchbacks will likely dominate the NFL’s new kickoff

The XFL’s kickoff return was returned for an average position of 29 yards. The NFL moved the kickoff back five yards (along with a few other rule changes), so the expectation going into the season is that the starting field position spot will be around the 34-yard-line. Here’s the problem: The NFL didn’t adjust the penalty for a touchback to go along with that five-yard change, so touchbacks out the back of the end zone have a starting field position at the 30-yard-line...which could lead to just as many touchbacks as before.

If kicking teams are electing to allow return teams to field the ball, the main strategy is going to be a sort of long squib attempt. If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line. Under XFL rules, there was a hangtime penalty that was enforced to prevent these “long squib” attempts, but the NFL didn’t adopt it.

So you’re going to see one of two plays with the NFL’s rules: A kick out of the back of the end zone or a long squib that could lead to teams actually using two returners on the field at the same time rather than just the single returner that we’re used to...

Florio claims that one coach told him that teams “will choose to kick out of the end zone at the outset of the season, so that the play can be studied based on the teams that choose to be the guinea pigs for it.”

:sadbanana:

I sure hope this isn't what will happen. Everyone was so excited about the new rules, teams were focused on signing guys with specific skills that would translate, and now we might not see any uptick in returns + they basically eliminated the possibility of a surprise onside kick.

Wonder if they have the flexibility to call a vote during/after preseason if it becomes obvious they goofed up the rule change?

That doesn't match what is on the NFL's page.

The only touchback that goes out to the 20 is one that lands between the 20 and goal line, then goes into the end zone and is downed.

If the ball goes out the back of the end zone, whether bouncing or on the fly, it always goes to the 30 yard line. Exception being if it lands short of the 20 initially then it's a penalty similar to kicking out of bounds.

What doesn’t match? The nested quote here says normal touchback (kicking out of end zone) goes to 30, whereas average XFL starting position was 29 yard line and average 2023 NFL starting position was 28.9 yard line. That is the point, that there is virtually no difference in giving the touchback while also eliminating risk of a bigger return.
 
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Touchbacks will likely dominate the NFL’s new kickoff

The XFL’s kickoff return was returned for an average position of 29 yards. The NFL moved the kickoff back five yards (along with a few other rule changes), so the expectation going into the season is that the starting field position spot will be around the 34-yard-line. Here’s the problem: The NFL didn’t adjust the penalty for a touchback to go along with that five-yard change, so touchbacks out the back of the end zone have a starting field position at the 30-yard-line...which could lead to just as many touchbacks as before.

If kicking teams are electing to allow return teams to field the ball, the main strategy is going to be a sort of long squib attempt. If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line. Under XFL rules, there was a hangtime penalty that was enforced to prevent these “long squib” attempts, but the NFL didn’t adopt it.

So you’re going to see one of two plays with the NFL’s rules: A kick out of the back of the end zone or a long squib that could lead to teams actually using two returners on the field at the same time rather than just the single returner that we’re used to...

Florio claims that one coach told him that teams “will choose to kick out of the end zone at the outset of the season, so that the play can be studied based on the teams that choose to be the guinea pigs for it.”

:sadbanana:

I sure hope this isn't what will happen. Everyone was so excited about the new rules, teams were focused on signing guys with specific skills that would translate, and now we might not see any uptick in returns + they basically eliminated the possibility of a surprise onside kick.

Wonder if they have the flexibility to call a vote during/after preseason if it becomes obvious they goofed up the rule change?

That doesn't match what is on the NFL's page.

The only touchback that goes out to the 20 is one that lands between the 20 and goal line, then goes into the end zone and is downed.

If the ball goes out the back of the end zone, whether bouncing or on the fly, it always goes to the 30 yard line. Exception being if it lands short of the 20 initially then it's a penalty similar to kicking out of bounds.

What doesn’t match? The nested quote here says normal touchback (kicking out of end zone) goes to 30, whereas average XFL starting position was 29 yard line and average 2023 NFL starting position was 28.9 yard line. That is the point, that there is virtually no difference in giving the touchback while also eliminating risk of a bigger return.

It said: "If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line."

That conflicts with the NFL's summary of the rule: "Any kick that goes out of the back of the end zone (in the air or bounces) – touchback to B30 yard line".
 
Assuming the NFL themselves didn't misstate their rule... teams would seem to be faced with a choice like this:

Ball is going to land around the 5 yard line.
  • Returner can field it and return it.
  • Returner can let it bounce and hope it goes through the end zone to get a touchback at the 30.
  • If it goes into the endzone but not out he'll have to fall on it and down it for a touchback at the 20 before the kicking team can get there and grab it for a touchdown.
  • If it doesn't go into the endzone, now he's really screwed and has to pick it up and return it with the kicking team having had extra time to close in.
 
Touchbacks will likely dominate the NFL’s new kickoff

The XFL’s kickoff return was returned for an average position of 29 yards. The NFL moved the kickoff back five yards (along with a few other rule changes), so the expectation going into the season is that the starting field position spot will be around the 34-yard-line. Here’s the problem: The NFL didn’t adjust the penalty for a touchback to go along with that five-yard change, so touchbacks out the back of the end zone have a starting field position at the 30-yard-line...which could lead to just as many touchbacks as before.

If kicking teams are electing to allow return teams to field the ball, the main strategy is going to be a sort of long squib attempt. If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line. Under XFL rules, there was a hangtime penalty that was enforced to prevent these “long squib” attempts, but the NFL didn’t adopt it.

So you’re going to see one of two plays with the NFL’s rules: A kick out of the back of the end zone or a long squib that could lead to teams actually using two returners on the field at the same time rather than just the single returner that we’re used to...

Florio claims that one coach told him that teams “will choose to kick out of the end zone at the outset of the season, so that the play can be studied based on the teams that choose to be the guinea pigs for it.”

:sadbanana:

I sure hope this isn't what will happen. Everyone was so excited about the new rules, teams were focused on signing guys with specific skills that would translate, and now we might not see any uptick in returns + they basically eliminated the possibility of a surprise onside kick.

Wonder if they have the flexibility to call a vote during/after preseason if it becomes obvious they goofed up the rule change?

That doesn't match what is on the NFL's page.

The only touchback that goes out to the 20 is one that lands between the 20 and goal line, then goes into the end zone and is downed.

If the ball goes out the back of the end zone, whether bouncing or on the fly, it always goes to the 30 yard line. Exception being if it lands short of the 20 initially then it's a penalty similar to kicking out of bounds.

What doesn’t match? The nested quote here says normal touchback (kicking out of end zone) goes to 30, whereas average XFL starting position was 29 yard line and average 2023 NFL starting position was 28.9 yard line. That is the point, that there is virtually no difference in giving the touchback while also eliminating risk of a bigger return.

It said: "If a ball bounces inside the 20 and goes out of the end zone, the touchback simply goes to the 20-yard-line."

That conflicts with the NFL's summary of the rule: "Any kick that goes out of the back of the end zone (in the air or bounces) – touchback to B30 yard line".

OK, thanks, I understand your comment now. However, that doesn't change the point of the article, which is that teams will often be motivated to just give opponents the ball at the 30 by kicking out of the back of the end zone.

Average starting field position after kickoffs returned from the landing zone in the XFL using similar rules was around the 29 yard line. I'm sure some teams will seek to figure out a method to force returns and stop them shorter; some will likely succeed, while others won't. But just giving the touchback at the 30 seems to notionally trade off 1 more yard of field position in exchange for eliminating the risk of a bigger return as well as the risk of an injury to the kicking team during the return. It seems likely that tradeoff will appeal to many, if not most, teams.
 
Ok I heard the missing detail about onside kicks during a visit from Walt Anderson on NFLN, and edited the post above,

In an onside kick (only can be attempted by trailing team in 4th quarter), rules are the same as they have been in the past. Except if the ball goes 25 yards downfield from the kicking spot without anyone touching it, it's a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. The 25 yard distance is the part that wasn't stated in the NFL's rules digest.

So kick from the normal spot at the 35, if it goes past the receiving team 40, then the ball gets spotted all the way back at the kicking team 20, at the edge of the red zone.
 
Does anyone know where we can find "fantasy points against for kick return yards" or "kick return yards against" at the team level?

My suspicion is that some teams will tend to kick for touchbacks, but that some special teams coaches will be more aggressive in seeking to gain an advantage by targeting the landing zone. After 3 or 4 weeks, we should begin seeing trends as to which teams are doing what. (Of course, that'll be about the time the coaches will begin correcting their strategies, but still...)

I tried some of the fbg stat pages and pro football reference, but couldn't find anything as to which teams are giving up the most return yards. Any suggestions?
 
Does anyone know where we can find "fantasy points against for kick return yards" or "kick return yards against" at the team level?
Given that in my leagues the DEF/ST scoring setting is mine, I track & add that type of data. I also try to format it so that it's useful when accessing via a handheld.
-------------
Below are the offenses & ST cover units giving up the most FF points to DEF/ST after 2 weeks:

Team............Pts Allowed.....Ret' Yds Allowed....TB%/GP

01.) Tennessee.......56.30..............223..............42.9%/2
02.) Chicago...........42.60..............266..............20.0%/2
03.) New Orleans...42.30..............353.............. 22.0%/2
04.) Cleveland........35.00..............150..............77.8%/2
05.) Carolina...........30.30..............153..............25.0%/2
06.) Las Vegas........29.50.............105..............70.0%/2
07.) Dallas...............28.90.............169..............69.2%/2
08.) Washington......28.30.............193..............18.2%/2
09.) Cincinnati.........28.00...............50...............90.0%/2
10.) Houston...........28.00..............160..............53.8%/2
11.) Denver.............27.40..............114...............50.0%/2
12.) Seattle.............27.00..............140...............76.9%/2
13.) Tampa Bay.......26.10..............161..............61.5%/2
14.) NY Giants........25.00................60..............71.4%/2
15.) Miami...............24.20................72..............57.1%/2

San Francisco, Buffalo, Arizona, LA Chargers & Baltimore round out the top 20.
--------------------
Teams are listed by fantasy points allowed, not return yards allowed. But NO & CHI stand out.
 
I love the TB%.
I found this. It's not as good, but it matches what you noticed.
statmuse.com/nfl/ask/team-kickoff-return-yards-allowed
I did see that site, the problem for me is that I'd still have to go back & add in the production from punt returns. At NFL.com on Tuesday or Wednesday more so, I navigate to players, click DEF/ST. Toggle to "all players" & it shows the total production from all returns. I can click to see what that figure is for any given week & who the team played. Worded differently, I don't have a return-yards-allowed stat page, I use the ret yds gained data & note which team it was against. The Touchback % I also get from NFL.com https://www.nfl.com/stats/team-stats/special-teams/kickoffs/2024/reg/all
 

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