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League in Year 22 needs some thoughts on how to handle an odd situation (1 Viewer)

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Hello all,

I run a league that is in its 22nd year. It has the greatest scoring system ever and has a great overall structure. However, we had a bit of a crisis last year, something that had never popped up before and we need create a new rule for the 2022 season to keep from having it happen again. This is our first rule addition in years, so you know it must be important. Here it is:

You have Owner A and Owner B. Owner A knows that he is NOT going to be in the league the following year. Therefore he does not care about his draft picks for the following year.

So he trades an insane amount of them to Owner B for a REALLY good player or multiple players (players that normally would most likely not be traded) knowing that he is just playing for this year and does not care about the following year or his draft picks. This "uneven" trade results in Owner A being really good in the current season and he wins the league and ducks out because, once again, he doesn't give a #### about his team the next year since he knows he will be out of the league.

So that ruins the current year (2021 season) for everyone.

Then, the next year, Owner B is loaded with two 1st rounders, two 2nd rounders, two 3rd rounders, two 4th rounders etc. and runs away with the title.

So the trade has most likely ruined two back to back seasons (2021 and upcoming 2022 season). That sucks.

So here is one idea for a new rule to handle this: If you do a trade involving you giving up draft picks for the next season, you have to pay $300 to the bank for the trade to go through. If you DO play the following year, then that $300 is applied to your entry fee (which is around $500). So you get the money back. The trade will not be processed until I (the Commish) receives the $300. Of course the $300 will be noted in the records. If you still don't come back after paying the $300 then it will be added to the league pot for the following year.

This will start next year as in it will apply to trades made in the 2022 season. This will not affect trades made this past season that involved the 2022 season. Those will still go through.

How do you handle this in your leagues? Any ideas?

 

zamboni

Footballguy
We've never had that situation, but I don't think that extra fee would fly in my league. As commish, best I could do is evaluate each trade on its own merit and make sure it's not *too* lopsided. Just have to hope that your league mates wouldn't resort to something like that. :shrug:

FWIW, this should go in the Shark Pool,

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
I couldn't find which forum was the best fit...

Zamboni, we considered that, but we have never stopped "stupid" trades. If someone wants to do something dumb, it's their right to so we didnt want this to turn into a "that trade is stupid, I will not allow it" vs. "well it makes perfect sense to us!" type stuff.

 

massraider

Footballguy
Hello all,

I run a league that is in its 22nd year. It has the greatest scoring system ever and has a great overall structure. However, we had a bit of a crisis last year, something that had never popped up before and we need create a new rule for the 2022 season to keep from having it happen again. This is our first rule addition in years, so you know it must be important. Here it is:

You have Owner A and Owner B. Owner A knows that he is NOT going to be in the league the following year. Therefore he does not care about his draft picks for the following year.

So he trades an insane amount of them to Owner B for a REALLY good player or multiple players (players that normally would most likely not be traded) knowing that he is just playing for this year and does not care about the following year or his draft picks. This "uneven" trade results in Owner A being really good in the current season and he wins the league and ducks out because, once again, he doesn't give a #### about his team the next year since he knows he will be out of the league.

So that ruins the current year (2021 season) for everyone.

Then, the next year, Owner B is loaded with two 1st rounders, two 2nd rounders, two 3rd rounders, two 4th rounders etc. and runs away with the title.

So the trade has most likely ruined two back to back seasons (2021 and upcoming 2022 season). That sucks.

So here is one idea for a new rule to handle this: If you do a trade involving you giving up draft picks for the next season, you have to pay $300 to the bank for the trade to go through. If you DO play the following year, then that $300 is applied to your entry fee (which is around $500). So you get the money back. The trade will not be processed until I (the Commish) receives the $300. Of course the $300 will be noted in the records. If you still don't come back after paying the $300 then it will be added to the league pot for the following year.

This will start next year as in it will apply to trades made in the 2022 season. This will not affect trades made this past season that involved the 2022 season. Those will still go through.

How do you handle this in your leagues? Any ideas?
Yes, putting up money for next year is usually the way it's handled.  

But part of the issue is that Owner A makes an orphan team unattractive to potential new owners.  We have it set up so that any new owner gets $300 (or whatever the amount is) knocked off his entry fee.  A little enticement to cushion the blow of taking over a new team with less draft picks.  I dunno, maybe finding new owners is easy for you, so finding a good owner isn't an issue. 

I'm in favor of making people pay the full fee for future picks.  

 

Willie Neslon

Footballguy
Couple questions. Is it a dynasty league or redraft? Also, did the open slot fill? and does the new owner just not have those draft picks for this year? Or you just go with one less owner? The failure here is on the commissioner who's job is to protect the integrity of the league. This should have been handled as soon as the trade was executed. Also the guy who traded all his picks and ruined the league should be ostracized from everything.

 

zamboni

Footballguy
Zamboni, we considered that, but we have never stopped "stupid" trades. If someone wants to do something dumb, it's their right to so we didnt want this to turn into a "that trade is stupid, I will not allow it" vs. "well it makes perfect sense to us!" type stuff.
That's always a fine line as commissioner to determine what is egregious and what is just somewhat overpaying for players you want. As commissioner, I have the right to veto a trade, and if the trading parties don't like it, they can appeal to a league vote.

 

Doug B

Footballguy
Couple questions. Is it a dynasty league or redraft? Also, did the open slot fill? and does the new owner just not have those draft picks for this year?
Was wondering the same. I mean ... does Owner A still have all those good players the 2022 draft picks paid for? Because is Team A is still loaded with several of 2021's top performers ... maybe not having 2022 draft picks isn't really a problem this year.
 

 

acarey50

Footballguy
Assuming dynasty league, if you trade future picks (or over a certain umber of picks have seen many variations on this), then the owner trading away picks pays the future year's league fees.

If they leave the league, those fees go towards paying for the new owner coming in - new owner basically gets first year free to take the orphan team that does not have the full allotment of rookie picks.

Being able to trade picks is a key piece of dynasty leagues, so eliminating that is not really a good option.

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Yes, putting up money for next year is usually the way it's handled.  

But part of the issue is that Owner A makes an orphan team unattractive to potential new owners.  We have it set up so that any new owner gets $300 (or whatever the amount is) knocked off his entry fee.  A little enticement to cushion the blow of taking over a new team with less draft picks.  I dunno, maybe finding new owners is easy for you, so finding a good owner isn't an issue. 

I'm in favor of making people pay the full fee for future picks.  
We do two keepers and re-draft every year. That way the draft (the most fun part of the season) is still important and happens every year. New players to the league get their own Preliminary Draft a week before the main draft where they pick up their "keepers" from players not kept and players available because their owners quit the league. The new owners would be included in the random draft order organization. So any new people step in with two really good "keepers" and random draft spots.

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Assuming dynasty league, if you trade future picks (or over a certain umber of picks have seen many variations on this), then the owner trading away picks pays the future year's league fees.

If they leave the league, those fees go towards paying for the new owner coming in - new owner basically gets first year free to take the orphan team that does not have the full allotment of rookie picks.

Being able to trade picks is a key piece of dynasty leagues, so eliminating that is not really a good option.
New owners get their own two "keepers" and their own draft picks. They are in no way tied to the person that left.

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Couple questions. Is it a dynasty league or redraft? Also, did the open slot fill? and does the new owner just not have those draft picks for this year? Or you just go with one less owner? The failure here is on the commissioner who's job is to protect the integrity of the league. This should have been handled as soon as the trade was executed. Also the guy who traded all his picks and ruined the league should be ostracized from everything.
Redraft with two keepers. New owners get their keepers from a pool of all un-kept players and players from teams that are no longer in the league. So the new owner isnt impacted at all draft wise. As for handling it as soon as the trade was executed, no one knew he was leaving the league. Didn't found out until later.

 

acarey50

Footballguy
New owners get their own two "keepers" and their own draft picks. They are in no way tied to the person that left.


Well, the new owner must be tied to the "franchise" of the person that left, or are you saying that you give them extra picks even if the "franchise" they are taking over traded theirs away?

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Well, the new owner must be tied to the "franchise" of the person that left, or are you saying that you give them extra picks even if the "franchise" they are taking over traded theirs away?
we don't do take overs. The new owner in the league gets their own two keepers and their own randomly determined draft slot.

 

Shula-holic

Footballguy
I like the paying into the bank idea.  The only other solution I could come up with is some kind of modified "Stepien Rule" where you limit not the number of years of 1st round picks you can trade, but perhaps that you can only trade 2 or 3 of your first 5.  I don't like that as well but I don't know how else you'd prevent it.

 

El Floppo

Footballguy
we don't do take overs. The new owner in the league gets their own two keepers and their own randomly determined draft slot.
ah. I assumed dynasty.

this is one of those trades- even in a rubber stamp, anything goes league- where it should have been given the kabosh, the 23 skiddoo, the stick, the funny business, the... can't think of any more- vetoed. it messes with the balance of the league for 2 years. 

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Tell me more about this scoring system 
It's all based on actual football. Like in football, a passing TD is worth the same as a rushing TD, so none of that 4pts or 6pts for the same "score". Hate stuff like that. We also have defenses worth a LOT more than standard. I hate that 1/2 (or 1/3) of the real game (defense) is basically inconsequential in most fantasy league. We often have team defenses kept or selected in the 1st or 2nd round. For example, if a D has a shutout, that is 40 points (not counting sacks, turnovers etc) because basically in the NFL, if your D gets you a shutout you will likely win 90% of the time but it is very very rare

I don't post here in the Forums much... cant find a place to upload screenshots of our scoring...
 

 

Willie Neslon

Footballguy
Redraft with two keepers. New owners get their keepers from a pool of all un-kept players and players from teams that are no longer in the league. So the new owner isnt impacted at all draft wise. As for handling it as soon as the trade was executed, no one knew he was leaving the league. Didn't found out until later.
But one team has a #### ton extra draft picks this year because of the trade, no? Where are those picks coming from?

 

Tom Servo

Nittany Beavers
Jaybee1200 said:
Redraft with two keepers. New owners get their keepers from a pool of all un-kept players and players from teams that are no longer in the league. So the new owner isnt impacted at all draft wise. As for handling it as soon as the trade was executed, no one knew he was leaving the league. Didn't found out until later.
So, hold on.  You said the guy knew he was going to leave, but no one else did?  How will you know if this rule changes works?  You can't say, "no one ever did it again" because you can't prove a negative.  In all honesty, depending on how much owner turnover there is, this looks like a solution in search of a problem.  Just my :2cents:  

 
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Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Willie Neslon said:
But one team has a #### ton extra draft picks this year because of the trade, no? Where are those picks coming from?
they are tacked on to the end of each round as they do not have a "slot" since the team they came from are no longer around

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
So, hold on.  You said the guy knew he was going to leave, but no one else did?  How will you know if this rule changes works?  You can't say, "no one ever did it again" because you can't prove a negative.  In all honesty, depending on how much owner turnover there is, is looks like a solution in search of a problem.  Just my :2cents:  
Because if they trade away draft picks they have to pay the league $300 to allow the trade. That $300 will only be used towards their entry fee for the next year. So if the owner leaves, then that $300 goes into the pot and whoever wins the next year gets $300 extra.

 

Lehigh98

Footballguy
Jaybee1200 said:
we don't do take overs. The new owner in the league gets their own two keepers and their own randomly determined draft slot.


Jaybee1200 said:
New owners get their own two "keepers" and their own draft picks. They are in no way tied to the person that left.


I'm not sure why you would even allow trading future draft picks in this scenario.   :confused:

 
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Jaybee1200

Footballguy
I'm not sure why you would even allow trading future draft picks in this scenario.   :confused:
The new guys usually have really good teams as they get to pick and choose their two keepers from a pool of a ton of available players. We have had a new team in the money for I think every single year where we had to bring in someone new. Plus, we haven't had a ton of turnover during the 22 years. 

 

acarey50

Footballguy
Willie Neslon said:
But one team has a #### ton extra draft picks this year because of the trade, no? Where are those picks coming from?


they are tacked on to the end of each round as they do not have a "slot" since the team they came from are no longer around


I'm not sure why you would even allow trading future draft picks in this scenario.   :confused:




Yeah - this setup makes absolutely no sense. But, if it's what you've always done, it's what you've always done. Will just say that I have never seen a league handle owner replacement this way, especially with keepers/future draft picks in volved, and I'm not sure why the league would be okay with these phantom picks being allowed.

It's almost as if you want it to be a redraft league with some elements of keeper/dynasty without actually having the franchise continuity from year to year that is kind of a fundamental core to being able to successfully maintain a keeper/dynasty league.

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Yeah - this setup makes absolutely no sense. But, if it's what you've always done, it's what you've always done. Will just say that I have never seen a league handle owner replacement this way, especially with keepers/future draft picks in volved, and I'm not sure why the league would be okay with these phantom picks being allowed.

It's almost as if you want it to be a redraft league with some elements of keeper/dynasty without actually having the franchise continuity from year to year that is kind of a fundamental core to being able to successfully maintain a keeper/dynasty league.
because drafts are the most fun part of the year, everyone comes together in-person (we are scattered all over the country but fly in to wherever the draft is) and talks ****. To have the draft only being rookies and your 4th string TE would be boring as hell. Doing it this way makes every season up for grabs, no one has a monopoly, the draft matters, team can easily go from worst to first etc. 

 

brun

Footballguy
So if I'm team B, can I whisper to team A that if I win the next year I'll give him the resulting increase in the championship prize (or some portion of it)?

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
So if I'm team B, can I whisper to team A that if I win the next year I'll give him the resulting increase in the championship prize (or some portion of it)?
in theory, yes, but stuff like that can happen in just about any league

 

acarey50

Footballguy
because drafts are the most fun part of the year, everyone comes together in-person (we are scattered all over the country but fly in to wherever the draft is) and talks ****. To have the draft only being rookies and your 4th string TE would be boring as hell. Doing it this way makes every season up for grabs, no one has a monopoly, the draft matters, team can easily go from worst to first etc. 


I didn't say change to full dynasty, but I've never seen a keeper league create phantom draft picks like you are. You are basically rewarding teams for trading their picks away to build a stronger team in the current year.

I have seen many leagues allow new owners to select their keepers from the entire unkept player pool (in my opinion one of the more fair ways for a new owner taking over a team in a non-dynasty keeper format), but they are still taking over a "franchise" which includes the franchises pick allotment (whether they traded for additional picks, or traded away their picks). It's what keeps the continuity of a keeper/dynasty league going.

But again, it's your league, I have to assume that in the 22 years it has been going you have had to replace owners and have been allowing picks to be traded, so this can't be the first time a new owner has taken over a team that has made pick trades.

 

Lehigh98

Footballguy
because drafts are the most fun part of the year, everyone comes together in-person (we are scattered all over the country but fly in to wherever the draft is) and talks ****. To have the draft only being rookies and your 4th string TE would be boring as hell. Doing it this way makes every season up for grabs, no one has a monopoly, the draft matters, team can easily go from worst to first etc. 
Then just don't allow trading of these pseudo-future redraft picks... seems like a no-brainer.   :confused:

 
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Jaybee1200

Footballguy
I didn't say change to full dynasty, but I've never seen a keeper league create phantom draft picks like you are. You are basically rewarding teams for trading their picks away to build a stronger team in the current year.

I have seen many leagues allow new owners to select their keepers from the entire unkept player pool (in my opinion one of the more fair ways for a new owner taking over a team in a non-dynasty keeper format), but they are still taking over a "franchise" which includes the franchises pick allotment (whether they traded for additional picks, or traded away their picks). It's what keeps the continuity of a keeper/dynasty league going.

But again, it's your league, I have to assume that in the 22 years it has been going you have had to replace owners and have been allowing picks to be traded, so this can't be the first time a new owner has taken over a team that has made pick trades.
but we wouldn't want new owners being punished (or rewarded) for something that they had nothing to do with... and yes, if players are willing to trade away their picks for next year to be better this year, that is fine. As long as they don't skip town on us (only happened once, this time)

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Then just don't allow trading of these pseudo-future redraft picks... seems like a no-brainer.   :confused:
What? Not sure what you are saying. New owners can NOT trade their Preliminary Picks, they have to use those two picks before the draft to get them up to having keepers. Then, once we go into the draft each player will have two keepers and their draft picks. Then, the new players can trade their prelim players just like any other keeper. I don't see that being bad, happens all the time in the NFL, can happen here. The problem is, in the NFL you dont have teams disappearing a day after receiving their Super Bowl trophy.

 

BobbyLayne

Footballguy
The amount of serious responses here is absolutely shocking. 
IKR

@Jaybee1200 this probably belongs in the Assistant Coach forum but tbh you wouldn’t get more than 1-2 responses. The less optimal solution would be to put it in The Shark Pool - you’d get more traffic and serious responses there.

Usually FF related topics get 99% snark responses here in the Free For All. Music, streaming entertainment, gaming, fitness, personal finance & of late, grieving, are generally hot topics here. 

IDK what kind of Jedi mind trick you pulled today but serious kudos for eliciting thoughtful fantasy discussion in the FFA. This thread response is basically a unicorn, so congrats for that!

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
IKR

@Jaybee1200 this probably belongs in the Assistant Coach forum but tbh you wouldn’t get more than 1-2 responses. The less optimal solution would be to put it in The Shark Pool - you’d get more traffic and serious responses there.

Usually FF related topics get 99% snark responses here in the Free For All. Music, streaming entertainment, gaming, fitness, personal finance & of late, grieving, are generally hot topics here. 

IDK what kind of Jedi mind trick you pulled today but serious kudos for eliciting thoughtful fantasy discussion in the FFA. This thread response is basically a unicorn, so congrats for that!
Thanks Bobby, I do Business Development for a living, so I know how to make peeps respond and touch base! Plus I had some jokes/come backs lined up in case there were no serious responses.

For example:

acary50 is SO dumb, it takes him 2 hours to watch 60-Minutes
Lehigh98 is SO dumb, he returned his order at Dunkin because his food had a hole in it

:)

 

Runkle

Footballguy
I don't see the problem at all.  Team A made a trade to get them the championship, it worked.  Team B made a trade to make themselves better in the future, it worked.

Sounds like the classic good trade to me.


Lets pretend that Team A didn't leave the league.  How would that situation be any different?  He still would have won the league last year, and Team B would still have the extra draft picks.
Exactly. There is no problem here that needs to be addressed. 

Except perhaps that it took 22 years for anyone to figure out how to win this noob league. 

 

Jaybee1200

Footballguy
Exactly. There is no problem here that needs to be addressed. 

Except perhaps that it took 22 years for anyone to figure out how to win this noob league. 
he would not have done the trade because he would have so few players able to be drafted. He would literally end the draft with no picks in the first 3 rounds and 5 less draft picks than anyone else

 

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