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League Rules Dispute - Need Input (1 Viewer)

Lehigh98

Footballguy
Hey guys,

Looking for input to help me make a decision on a rules/scoring issue. Please read the info below and let me know what you would do in this situation...

"[SIZE=11pt]Had a new issue come up from last week’s games. Every week, a couple of days after all of the games are final and our fantasy scores have been calculated, the Elias Sports Bureau (which is the official statistician for the NFL) reviews all of the games on tape and sometimes issues official stat corrections if needed. By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]There was a stat correction from this past week that would have changed the outcome of a game if made before the game results were final. I received a request to change the result for that particular stat correction. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I’m hesitant to make a change in a single case without being consistent and applying in for all previous weeks as well. If that’s done, I’m not sure how much effect that would have on other games.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]For other issues that have popped up I’ve tried to rely on precedents. The only thing I can think of that’s similar was when I realized that the MFL website wasn’t set up to put dropped players on waivers for 2 days even though our constitution said it should. We decided that since the website had been running that way we’d leave it alone for the rest of the year. In this case, the site has not been processing these corrections in the past and we also don’t have a rule about them in the constitution."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thoughts? Aside from the rules / league should have been set up better? What would you do?[/SIZE]

 
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Interseptopus

Footballguy
Edit: I'd be furious losing over a stat correction, but your league is set up to allow for these situations.

Leave it as is

 
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mcdons3

Footballguy
Uh, your rules seem to be clear on this.

You can use this as guidance for setting up your rules for next year's league, but you really shouldn't even be contemplating changing the outcome of a game as a result of discovering you don't enjoy how you guys have set up the rules.

 

Interseptopus

Footballguy
Uh, your rules seem to be clear on this.

You can use this as guidance for setting up your rules for next year's league, but you really shouldn't even be contemplating changing the outcome of a game as a result of discovering you don't enjoy how you guys have set up the rules.
But there isn't a rule on this. Not having a rule on what to do if you lose a game based on a stat error does not equal a rule that states you cannot apply stat corrections to games it would have changed the outcome in. It's uncharted territory in this league. At least that's my take

I agree that next year there should be a rule on this

 

socrates

Footballguy
I would consider a stat correction to be a change which is effective back to the time of the game rather than a change after the fact. I think any stat corrections must be taken into consideration, and the game results adjusted accordingly.

The fact that no stat change adjustments have been made previously in your league raises another issue, of course. Did anyone "request" a score change as a result of a stat correction previously? I am assuming they have not. Therefore, this is the opportunity to establish an important precedent and adjust the score to reflect the actual NFL stats. If, however, a prior precedent was established by disallowing a request to change a score based on a statistical adjustment, then I believe you need to follow the precedent established BUT change the rule after the season.

 

Interseptopus

Footballguy
Nevermind, I stand corrected. I reread the OP

The rules do state what to do in these circumstances. Games are official after MFN for all teams. That's the rule. It's a crappy rule but it's a rule.

Unfortunately you stand pat with the original outcome

 

mcdons3

Footballguy
Uh, your rules seem to be clear on this.

You can use this as guidance for setting up your rules for next year's league, but you really shouldn't even be contemplating changing the outcome of a game as a result of discovering you don't enjoy how you guys have set up the rules.
But there isn't a rule on this. Not having a rule on what to do if you lose a game based on a stat error does not equal a rule that states you cannot apply stat corrections to games it would have changed the outcome in. It's uncharted territory in this league. At least that's my take

I agree that next year there should be a rule on this
I would argue that your current league settings are a subset of your rules.

 

Interseptopus

Footballguy
Uh, your rules seem to be clear on this.

You can use this as guidance for setting up your rules for next year's league, but you really shouldn't even be contemplating changing the outcome of a game as a result of discovering you don't enjoy how you guys have set up the rules.
But there isn't a rule on this. Not having a rule on what to do if you lose a game based on a stat error does not equal a rule that states you cannot apply stat corrections to games it would have changed the outcome in. It's uncharted territory in this league. At least that's my take

I agree that next year there should be a rule on this
I would argue that your current league settings are a subset of your rules.
Agree. I recanted above. I think it's clear as well

 

buddhacwru

Footballguy
I think you run the risk of everyone now reviewing stat corrections in prior weeks too. Seems like you need to not change anything

 

kardplayer

Footballguy
You can't change the rule now. There are lots of stat changes that happen throughout the year, and you either need to do all of them or none of them.

Fix it for next year.

 

socrates

Footballguy
I would consider a stat correction to be a change which is effective back to the time of the game rather than a change after the fact.
Sorry Socrates, I was never good at philosophy but I don't understand that at all
Yeah, I was probably not all that clear. Sorry. My point was merely a timing issue. The results are "final after MNF scores". A statistical adjustment is not a stat which is only effective after MNF. Rather, it is effective dating back to the time of the game, retroactively.

Clear as mud?

 

TheLurkerBelow

Footballguy
Here's a suggestion that has helped me as well. I added a line in our rules to the effect that all owners are responsible for filing any protests, claims, or other scoring questions before the next week's games have begun. Once the next week's games have begun, all stats are locked and final. This gives everyone a chance to make necessary corrections, like with your case and a case earlier in this year when a WR fumbled a punt return (had to manually adjust in our league since special teams scoring isn't counted for the individual). But, it then has the effect that you never run into the "but how will this ruling effect all the other scores from earlier weeks this year?" question.

 

Interseptopus

Footballguy
I would consider a stat correction to be a change which is effective back to the time of the game rather than a change after the fact.
Sorry Socrates, I was never good at philosophy but I don't understand that at all
Yeah, I was probably not all that clear. Sorry. My point was merely a timing issue. The results are "final after MNF scores". A statistical adjustment is not a stat which is only effective after MNF. Rather, it is effective dating back to the time of the game, retroactively.

Clear as mud?
Crystal, kind of, I think I get it now

 

socrates

Footballguy
Here's a suggestion that has helped me as well. I added a line in our rules to the effect that all owners are responsible for filing any protests, claims, or other scoring questions before the next week's games have begun. Once the next week's games have begun, all stats are locked and final. This gives everyone a chance to make necessary corrections, like with your case and a case earlier in this year when a WR fumbled a punt return (had to manually adjust in our league since special teams scoring isn't counted for the individual). But, it then has the effect that you never run into the "but how will this ruling effect all the other scores from earlier weeks this year?" question.
That is a good point. Was the request to adjust the score made prior to the Thanksgiving games?

 

TheStig

Footballguy
Hey guys,

Looking for input to help me make a decision on a rules/scoring issue. Please read the info below and let me know what you would do in this situation...

"Had a new issue come up from last weeks games. Every week, a couple of days after all of the games are final and our fantasy scores have been calculated, the Elias Sports Bureau (which is the official statistician for the NFL) reviews all of the games on tape and sometimes issues official stat corrections if needed. By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years.

There was a stat correction from this past week that would have changed the outcome of a game if made before the game results were final. I received a request to change the result for that particular stat correction.

Im hesitant to make a change in a single case without being consistent and applying in for all previous weeks as well. If thats done, Im not sure how much effect that would have on other games.

For other issues that have popped up Ive tried to rely on precedents. The only thing I can think of thats similar was when I realized that the MFL website wasnt set up to put dropped players on waivers for 2 days even though our constitution said it should. We decided that since the website had been running that way wed leave it alone for the rest of the year. In this case, the site has not been processing these corrections in the past and we also dont have a rule about them in the constitution."

Thoughts? Aside from the rules / league should have been set up better? What would you do?
It not only is a rule as stated by you here "By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years."It is also a league setting that regardless of your belief it was not conscious, it was in fact a conscious decision. That you did not understand the implications of the settings shouldn't matter.

This is the time of year when everyone starts looking for rules, stat corrections, trade collusion debates and every other manner of gamesmanship to bail themselves out of a bad situation.

Your settings served you well for a long time but now, because they didn't go somebody's way thus week, likely with a playoff birth on the line you want to change it? Trust me, in week two nobody in your league would have brought this up. A win or a loss in week 2 is the same as in week 13 so no more attention need to be given.

Certainly adjust in the off season but you can't change things late in the season over some sour grapes.

 
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Interseptopus

Footballguy
Hey guys,

Looking for input to help me make a decision on a rules/scoring issue. Please read the info below and let me know what you would do in this situation...

"Had a new issue come up from last weeks games. Every week, a couple of days after all of the games are final and our fantasy scores have been calculated, the Elias Sports Bureau (which is the official statistician for the NFL) reviews all of the games on tape and sometimes issues official stat corrections if needed. By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years.

There was a stat correction from this past week that would have changed the outcome of a game if made before the game results were final. I received a request to change the result for that particular stat correction.

Im hesitant to make a change in a single case without being consistent and applying in for all previous weeks as well. If thats done, Im not sure how much effect that would have on other games.

For other issues that have popped up Ive tried to rely on precedents. The only thing I can think of thats similar was when I realized that the MFL website wasnt set up to put dropped players on waivers for 2 days even though our constitution said it should. We decided that since the website had been running that way wed leave it alone for the rest of the year. In this case, the site has not been processing these corrections in the past and we also dont have a rule about them in the constitution."

Thoughts? Aside from the rules / league should have been set up better? What would you do?
It not only is a rule as stated by you here "By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years."It is also a league setting that regardless of your belief it was not conscious, it was in fact a conscious decision. That you did not understand the implications of the settings shouldn't matter.

This is the time of year when everyone starts looking for rules, stat corrections, trade collusion debates and every other manner of gamesmanship to bail themselves out of a bad situation.

Your settings served you well for a long time but now, because they didn't go somebody's way thus week, likely with a playoff birth on the line you want to change it? Trust me, in week two nobody in your league would have brought this up. A win or a loss in week 2 is the same as in week 13 so no more attention need to be given.

Certainly adjust in the off season but you can't change things late in the season over some sour grapes.
I would disagree only with the assumption you make that this person is only paying attention to this because of it being late into the season.

If this happened week 2, I highly doubt the owner would have rolled over and took his loss.

The only reason this is an issue is because it's the first time it's changed the outcome of a game. It's likely teams in the league didn't understand the implications of this rule, or even that this was a rule, when the season started. I'm guessing the losing team in this case figured this wasn't an unreasonable request and didn't realize a rule was already in place for this. Chances are he's ticked off, and he has a reason to be, but it is the rules. It takes something like this to being awareness to a bad rule to prompt changes in future years

 

Joe Summer

Footballguy
Your league has been making scores final on Monday for years, so you can't change it now.

(However, that is an extremely dumb policy. Change it next year.)

 

MoveToSkypager

Footballguy
Change it. You should want your fantasy scoring to reflect the true scores of the games played. The MNF deadline was probably arbitrary and at the very least too early to give proper scoring changes chance to be reviewed in the first place. You should ask yourself why the league doesn't want the true game scores being applied for your fantasy scores.

 

Mene

Footballguy
As a commissioner, I always go with past practice in situations like this. Since results have not been actively changed prior to this, I would say continue on for the remainder of the season that way. I would then adjust the rules to explain how these situations will be handled starting next year. In the league I run, I have this very clearly spelled out, that fantasy game results are subject to change due to statistical adjustments until Thursday morning. I believe the deadline for the ESB changes is Thursday morning as well.

 
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TheStig

Footballguy
Hey guys,

Looking for input to help me make a decision on a rules/scoring issue. Please read the info below and let me know what you would do in this situation...

"Had a new issue come up from last weeks games. Every week, a couple of days after all of the games are final and our fantasy scores have been calculated, the Elias Sports Bureau (which is the official statistician for the NFL) reviews all of the games on tape and sometimes issues official stat corrections if needed. By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years.

There was a stat correction from this past week that would have changed the outcome of a game if made before the game results were final. I received a request to change the result for that particular stat correction.

Im hesitant to make a change in a single case without being consistent and applying in for all previous weeks as well. If thats done, Im not sure how much effect that would have on other games.

For other issues that have popped up Ive tried to rely on precedents. The only thing I can think of thats similar was when I realized that the MFL website wasnt set up to put dropped players on waivers for 2 days even though our constitution said it should. We decided that since the website had been running that way wed leave it alone for the rest of the year. In this case, the site has not been processing these corrections in the past and we also dont have a rule about them in the constitution."

Thoughts? Aside from the rules / league should have been set up better? What would you do?
It not only is a rule as stated by you here "By default and without a conscious choice, our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years."It is also a league setting that regardless of your belief it was not conscious, it was in fact a conscious decision. That you did not understand the implications of the settings shouldn't matter.

This is the time of year when everyone starts looking for rules, stat corrections, trade collusion debates and every other manner of gamesmanship to bail themselves out of a bad situation.

Your settings served you well for a long time but now, because they didn't go somebody's way thus week, likely with a playoff birth on the line you want to change it? Trust me, in week two nobody in your league would have brought this up. A win or a loss in week 2 is the same as in week 13 so no more attention need to be given.

Certainly adjust in the off season but you can't change things late in the season over some sour grapes.
I would disagree only with the assumption you make that this person is only paying attention to this because of it being late into the season.

If this happened week 2, I highly doubt the owner would have rolled over and took his loss.

The only reason this is an issue is because it's the first time it's changed the outcome of a game. It's likely teams in the league didn't understand the implications of this rule, or even that this was a rule, when the season started. I'm guessing the losing team in this case figured this wasn't an unreasonable request and didn't realize a rule was already in place for this. Chances are he's ticked off, and he has a reason to be, but it is the rules. It takes something like this to being awareness to a bad rule to prompt changes in future years
Why don't these threads appear in September and October? Everyone starts crying about things that don't go their way in November.

As if suddenly in the history of this league a stat correction suddenly just altered a game result? It likely has happened before but miraculously this week it just occurred to the league what the settings actually mean?

Sorry but this is just sour grapes. It is amazing how rules problems are never raised until you get burned by them, they are always tough luck for the other guy though.

 

Hooper31

Footballguy
...our league has been set up to make the results final after MNF and not take into account these stat corrections this year and in previous years...
Stopped reading right here. Don't change it this year, but decide in the offseason whether or not you want to have this be a rule in future years.

 

Lehigh98

Footballguy
Here's a suggestion that has helped me as well. I added a line in our rules to the effect that all owners are responsible for filing any protests, claims, or other scoring questions before the next week's games have begun. Once the next week's games have begun, all stats are locked and final. This gives everyone a chance to make necessary corrections, like with your case and a case earlier in this year when a WR fumbled a punt return (had to manually adjust in our league since special teams scoring isn't counted for the individual). But, it then has the effect that you never run into the "but how will this ruling effect all the other scores from earlier weeks this year?" question.
That is a good point. Was the request to adjust the score made prior to the Thanksgiving games?
I received the email request Friday night, but we have no rule like the above anyway.

When were the scoring adjustments officially announced?

 

MoveToSkypager

Footballguy
Here's a suggestion that has helped me as well. I added a line in our rules to the effect that all owners are responsible for filing any protests, claims, or other scoring questions before the next week's games have begun. Once the next week's games have begun, all stats are locked and final. This gives everyone a chance to make necessary corrections, like with your case and a case earlier in this year when a WR fumbled a punt return (had to manually adjust in our league since special teams scoring isn't counted for the individual). But, it then has the effect that you never run into the "but how will this ruling effect all the other scores from earlier weeks this year?" question.
That is a good point. Was the request to adjust the score made prior to the Thanksgiving games?
I received the email request Friday night, but we have no rule like the above anyway.

When were the scoring adjustments officially announced?
This is why the rule should be ignored. Most NFL stat corrections are published on Wednesday. So according to their rules, no stat corrections would ever be recognized.

 

Johnny Blood

Footballguy
I think a better rule is that scoring protests must be voiced before the first Sunday game. Thursday is too early in the week and only gives one day after most corrections are published.

I can't answer the OP's question without knowing whether there are any written rules. If so, do they say anything at all about when scores are official? Are they completely silent on this? If you have written rules, and the league has been around for years, then leave this as is and revise the rules for next season.

 

Ranger1

Footballguy
Here's a suggestion that has helped me as well. I added a line in our rules to the effect that all owners are responsible for filing any protests, claims, or other scoring questions before the next week's games have begun. Once the next week's games have begun, all stats are locked and final. This gives everyone a chance to make necessary corrections, like with your case and a case earlier in this year when a WR fumbled a punt return (had to manually adjust in our league since special teams scoring isn't counted for the individual). But, it then has the effect that you never run into the "but how will this ruling effect all the other scores from earlier weeks this year?" question.
That is a good point. Was the request to adjust the score made prior to the Thanksgiving games?
I received the email request Friday night, but we have no rule like the above anyway.

When were the scoring adjustments officially announced?
Most are done Thursday morning. Both RTSports and MFL post stat corrections Thursday morning for the previous week's games.

HOWEVER - this week, there was a fairly well publicized stat error that was corrected by at least RTS almost immediately. It involved a Dez Bryant fumble that, based on my understanding from what I read, everyone knew it had been scored incorrectly. It was scored as a 5-yard reception, then the fumble lost the Cowboys 16 yards. This was changed to negative 11-yard reception, and was done I believe on Monday. Tuesday at the very latest. It was definitely done before the block of stat corrections that are usually issued.

 

socrates

Footballguy
Here's a suggestion that has helped me as well. I added a line in our rules to the effect that all owners are responsible for filing any protests, claims, or other scoring questions before the next week's games have begun. Once the next week's games have begun, all stats are locked and final. This gives everyone a chance to make necessary corrections, like with your case and a case earlier in this year when a WR fumbled a punt return (had to manually adjust in our league since special teams scoring isn't counted for the individual). But, it then has the effect that you never run into the "but how will this ruling effect all the other scores from earlier weeks this year?" question.
That is a good point. Was the request to adjust the score made prior to the Thanksgiving games?
I received the email request Friday night, but we have no rule like the above anyway.

When were the scoring adjustments officially announced?
Stat corrections are posted Wednesday. In my opinion, once you move on to the following week's games, the window to protest the result of the previous week's game has closed. Therefore, this is not a "timely objection". Team owners make lineup decisions based upon their records and needs. I have no idea how this affects the playoff race, but just from a purely "reasonable" standard, I believe an objection must be clearly issued prior to the following week's games.

To consider an objection after the next week's games have already begun opens up the possibility that all previous games for the season are open to reconsideration. There has to be some sort or time limit, and lacking a promulgated rule, I would argue the most reasonable time limit is the beginning of the following week's games.

 

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