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Lindsey Graham, The GOP, Trump & Screwtape's Toast (1 Viewer)

SaintsInDome2006

Footballguy
Noga Tarnopolsky‏Verified account @NTarnopolsky

Asked Graham if he’d get Trump the Golan initiative via @FoxNews interview. He chuckled, “I’ll transmit message directly.” I asked "What's the moral & national security trade-off for accommodating Trump in order to gain political influence with him?" Graham did not like question.
- Link.

H/T to @rockaction, an attempt to try ad streamofconsciousness by way of CS Lewis' Screwtape Proposes a Toast:

We, in Hell, would welcome the disappearance of democracy in the strict sense of that word, the political arrangement so called. Like all forms of government, it often works to our advantage, but on the whole less often than other forms. And what we must realize is that “democracy” in the diabolical sense (I'm as good as you, Being Like Folks, Togetherness) is the fittest instrument we could possibly have for extirpating political democracies from the face of the earth. For “democracy” or the “democratic spirit” (diabolical sense) leads to a nation without great men, a nation mainly of subliterates, full of the cocksureness which flattery breeds on ignorance, and quick to snarl or whimper at the first sign of criticism. And that is what Hell wishes every democratic people to be. For when such a nation meets in conflict a nation where children have been made to work at school, where talent is placed in high posts, and where the ignorant mass are allowed no say at all in public affairs, only one result is possible. The democracies were surprised lately when they found that Russia had got ahead of them in science. What a delicious specimen of human blindness! If the whole tendency of their society is opposed to every sort of excellence, why did they expect their scientists to excel? It is our function to encourage the behaviour, the manners, the whole attitude of mind, which democracies naturally like and enjoy, because these are the very things which, if unchecked, will destroy democracy. You would almost wonder that even humans don't see it themselves. Even if they don't read Aristotle (that would be undemocratic) you would have thought the French Revolution would have taught them that the behaviour aristocrats naturally like is not the behaviour that preserves aristocracy. They might then have applied the same principle to all forms of government.
- Screwtape Proposes A Toast.

- It just seems to me this is the challenge of our times - from Cohen, Sanders KA Conway, Graham, all the GOP, to fold under Trump's demand for lies, and from the Dems to not fall into it themselves so as to abandon their own principles to defeat it. 

In full disclosure I deleted this once, it's probably too esoteric, but I have thrown it out there having had some wine, which as we know always makes the truth braver. At any rate somewhere on the ethernet Screwtape and Trump have been brought together, as I think they should be.

- Salud ->  :banned:

 
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It is odd that the "democratic spirit" that Lewis points out is really a spirit that reveres egalitarianism regardless of merit or result. 

We see this on the left these days manifest in certain philosophical doctrines as well as the right, though. Off-handedly, I can think of many instances where the insistence of equality and merit buts up against that nastier facts of our mental, biological, and physiological natures. 

From the inequality of wage, wealth, and other merit markers and outcomes to the trans and gender movements of equality of not just opportunity but of biology and neuropsychology, the insistence upon equality's primacy, that democratic spirit that perniciously invades nature's selection of that which is excellent, is alive and well on the left as well as regarding Trump and his influence. 

That might be a jumping off point. 

Very de Tocquevillian in his assessment of the democratic spirit vs. the political arrangements of equality.  

 
It is odd that the "democratic spirit" that Lewis points out is really a spirit that reveres egalitarianism regardless of merit or result. 

We see this on the left these days manifest in certain philosophical doctrines as well as the right, though. Off-handedly, I can think of many instances where the insistence of equality and merit buts up against that nastier facts of our mental, biological, and physiological natures. 

From the inequality of wage, wealth, and other merit markers and outcomes to the trans and gender movements of equality of not just opportunity but of biology and neuropsychology, the insistence upon equality's primacy, that democratic spirit that perniciously invades nature's selection of that which is excellent, is alive and well on the left as well as regarding Trump and his influence. 

That might be a jumping off point. 

Very de Tocquevillian in his assessment of the democratic spirit vs. the political arrangements of equality.  
Yeah, it’s not a weakness of one school of thought or one political party.  It’s a weakness of democracy in that people begin to believe that just because their votes count equally their opinions are equally valid and worthy of respect.  Even when their opinions are uninformed and opposed by experts.

Though your reference to trans and gender movements suggests to me we’re taking this in quite another direction, in which you’re going to be arguing against the experts.

 
Education and perspective seem to be the remedies to these sorts of issues.  I am not a big fan of politics from the pulpit, so that's not where I'm going.  But as I sit back and observe this "movement" among "Christians" to double down in support of Trump, I can't help but wonder what sort of responsibilities our church leaderships have in these times.  The church I was at previously did a wonderful job of reminding us weekly that Jesus' example was the measure.  If you couldn't envision Jesus doing it or saying it or acting that way, it probably wasn't a good idea.  

I think that's a wonderful measure and really easy way to go about things, however, it takes a lot of discipline and focus.  And the practice becomes increasingly more difficult when sources you perceive as positive/good start making you question your approach and trying to convince you to be like them rather than like Jesus.  So, I guess that's where Screwtape falls a bit short.  While I agree that the easiest way to rid the world of democracy is to squash differing perspectives and get everyone into the "group think" mode, the exception to that is when that perspective is Jesus' perspective.  WWJD was a cliche I absolutely hated as a kid, but as I get older, it makes more and more sense.

 
Oh...and Lindsay Graham continues to be a bumbling patsy thirsty for attention/power.
If John McCain could come back down to earth for 15 minutes as a strong young man and beat the snot out of any one person, it wouldn't be Trump, it would be Graham., who lost every single ounce of moral fiber he had in his body once McCain passed away.

 
Education and perspective seem to be the remedies to these sorts of issues.  I am not a big fan of politics from the pulpit, so that's not where I'm going.  But as I sit back and observe this "movement" among "Christians" to double down in support of Trump, I can't help but wonder what sort of responsibilities our church leaderships have in these times.  The church I was at previously did a wonderful job of reminding us weekly that Jesus' example was the measure.  If you couldn't envision Jesus doing it or saying it or acting that way, it probably wasn't a good idea.  

I think that's a wonderful measure and really easy way to go about things, however, it takes a lot of discipline and focus.  And the practice becomes increasingly more difficult when sources you perceive as positive/good start making you question your approach and trying to convince you to be like them rather than like Jesus.  So, I guess that's where Screwtape falls a bit short.  While I agree that the easiest way to rid the world of democracy is to squash differing perspectives and get everyone into the "group think" mode, the exception to that is when that perspective is Jesus' perspective.  WWJD was a cliche I absolutely hated as a kid, but as I get older, it makes more and more sense.
You think it’s reasonable to squash differing perspectives on Jesus and that democracy would be just fine?

 
You think it’s reasonable to squash differing perspectives on Jesus and that democracy would be just fine?
Differing perspectives on Jesus?  Not sure I understand what you're asking.  What I am trying to say is that if we look at our issues the way we think Jesus would have based on our understanding of him and do that as a collective we'd be much better off.  At that point, its my guess that we'd be much more aligned with the goal and where we want to go and why we want to go there.  How we get there is where a disagreement would probably still be an issue and where the differing views necessary for a Democracy would come into play.

I don't think I'm being as clear as I could be...seems like I'm struggling a bit to get my thoughts out today :lol:  

 
Graham hasn't changed.  This is who he's always been.
He has changed a great deal. When McCain was alive, he was one of the few Republicans that would speak out against Trump. And one of the few Republican Senators I liked. He has completely fell in line now.

 
He has changed a great deal. When McCain was alive, he was one of the few Republicans that would speak out against Trump. And one of the few Republican Senators I liked. He has completely fell in line now.
He's stopped pretending sure.  He's stopped saying one thing and doing another.  The actions have never changed though.  They haven't.  He'd talk a big game against Trump and then what?  Bow to Trump's desire over a round of golf.  Ok...he's stopped talking the big game.  What does that buy you exactly?  He's made his entire career based on that process....talk big, then do nothing or something completely different than what he said.  I know because I lived in his state the better part of 12 years.

 
Differing perspectives on Jesus?  Not sure I understand what you're asking.  What I am trying to say is that if we look at our issues the way we think Jesus would have based on our understanding of him and do that as a collective we'd be much better off.  At that point, its my guess that we'd be much more aligned with the goal and where we want to go and why we want to go there.  How we get there is where a disagreement would probably still be an issue and where the differing views necessary for a Democracy would come into play.

I don't think I'm being as clear as I could be...seems like I'm struggling a bit to get my thoughts out today :lol:  
I understand you’re a follower of Jesus, and I think there is value to that perspective, but lots of us aren’t and I’m not really in “we should all do as a society what Jesus would have done” mode in life. 

 
He's stopped pretending sure.  He's stopped saying one thing and doing another.  The actions have never changed though.  They haven't.  He'd talk a big game against Trump and then what?  Bow to Trump's desire over a round of golf.  Ok...he's stopped talking the big game.  What does that buy you exactly?  He's made his entire career based on that process....talk big, then do nothing or something completely different than what he said.  I know because I lived in his state the better part of 12 years.
I can't argue any of that. But his willingness to speak out against Trump was a breath of fresh air in the modern day GOP, where they all follow along like little puppies hoping he doesn't get upset with them.

 
I can't argue any of that. But his willingness to speak out against Trump was a breath of fresh air in the modern day GOP, where they all follow along like little puppies hoping he doesn't get upset with them.
It was toothless.  You have a problem with your bar, it's set incorrectly IMO.

 
I understand you’re a follower of Jesus, and I think there is value to that perspective, but lots of us aren’t and I’m not really in “we should all do as a society what Jesus would have done” mode in life. 
I get that and I am not trying to push that on anyone.  That said, based purely on your posts here (as that's all I have to go by), I don't think you two would disagree as much as you might think.

 
It was toothless.  You have a problem with your bar, it's set incorrectly IMO.
There are only two possible settings to my bar. One is at the level where no one dares speak out or vote against Trump, and the other is where someone has the balls to speak against inhumanity and bigotry, but still votes for it.  If there was a bar setting of GOP members speaking out AND voting against Trump, then I'd set it there. Until that time, the old Lindsay Graham was about as good as it got for the GOP since Trumpism started.

 
I get that and I am not trying to push that on anyone.  That said, based purely on your posts here (as that's all I have to go by), I don't think you two would disagree as much as you might think.
I’ve said repeatedly on this board that I’m a big fan of much of his philosophy.  I almost became a preacher long ago.  

That said, I think in some instances it’s best to not do what Jesus would do.  As a society. Individuals are welcome to do as they like, of course. 

 
It was toothless.  You have a problem with your bar, it's set incorrectly IMO.
There are only two possible settings to my bar. One is at the level where no one dares speak out or vote against Trump, and the other is where someone has the balls to speak against inhumanity and bigotry, but still votes for it.  If there was a bar setting of GOP members speaking out AND voting against Trump, then I'd set it there. Until that time, the old Lindsay Graham was about as good as it got for the GOP since Trumpism started.
Right....as I said in the post you quoted.  There's no reason to limit yourself to these two options.

 
I’ve said repeatedly on this board that I’m a big fan of much of his philosophy.  I almost became a preacher long ago.  

That said, I think in some instances it’s best to not do what Jesus would do.  As a society. Individuals are welcome to do as they like, of course. 
This I did not know...learned something today :thumbup:  

 
Yeah, it’s not a weakness of one school of thought or one political party.  It’s a weakness of democracy in that people begin to believe that just because their votes count equally their opinions are equally valid and worthy of respect.  Even when their opinions are uninformed and opposed by experts.

Though your reference to trans and gender movements suggests to me we’re taking this in quite another direction, in which you’re going to be arguing against the experts.
I think your first part is what I was trying to say. But the "democratic spirit" he refers to was a concept that ran deeper than simply people feeling equally valid and worthy of respect even when their opinions aren't. I was referencing gender and trans movements as deeper manifestations of the "democratic spirit" that informs us that we are equal or identical to what we desire to be because of an egalitarian impulse, an impulse that often leads to hard truths being suppressed for the sake of desired outcomes. Thus the egalitarian impulse serves to not only make all opinions worthy or respect and valid, the egalitarian impulse works on other levels, too, namely on those impulses, identities, or states of being which contravene natural or biological fact and sit on the other side of the equality of outcome.   

 
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It is odd that the "democratic spirit" that Lewis points out is really a spirit that reveres egalitarianism regardless of merit or result. 

We see this on the left these days manifest in certain philosophical doctrines as well as the right, though. Off-handedly, I can think of many instances where the insistence of equality and merit buts up against that nastier facts of our mental, biological, and physiological natures. 

From the inequality of wage, wealth, and other merit markers and outcomes to the trans and gender movements of equality of not just opportunity but of biology and neuropsychology, the insistence upon equality's primacy, that democratic spirit that perniciously invades nature's selection of that which is excellent, is alive and well on the left as well as regarding Trump and his influence. 

That might be a jumping off point. 

Very de Tocquevillian in his assessment of the democratic spirit vs. the political arrangements of equality.  
That’s drivel. We want equal opportunity and a more equitable society that is simply not there. Corruption is out of control. Ugh. You guys wear me out. You really think you’re the only one ever worked a day in your life. Guess what mane. We all hustling out here. 

 
That’s drivel. We want equal opportunity and a more equitable society that is simply not there. Corruption is out of control. Ugh. You guys wear me out. You really think you’re the only one ever worked a day in your life. Guess what mane. We all hustling out here. 
I wasn't talking about working at all. I was talking about the "democratic spirit" C.S. Lewis is writing about. It was a common 19th Century concept when discussing democracy. 

I think you missed the point of my post entirely. It should be hard to call something "drivel" while completely missing not only a writing's main point, but also the examples thereto, but I've seen your work, and brava!, I'm not surprised.  

 
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I think your first part is what I was trying to say. But the "democratic spirit" he refers to was a concept that ran deeper than simply people feeling equally valid and worthy of respect even when their opinions aren't. I was referencing gender and trans movements as deeper manifestations of the "democratic spirit" that informs us that we are equal or identical to what we desire to be because of an egalitarian impulse, an impulse that often leads to hard truths being suppressed for the sake of desired outcomes. Thus the egalitarian impulse serves to not only make all opinions worthy or respect and valid, the egalitarian impulse works on other levels, too, namely on those impulses, identities, or states of being which contravene natural or biological fact and sit on the other side of the equality of outcome.   
Yeah, that's what I mean about you contradicting the experts on these issues. We can chat about that again in one of the other threads dedicated to it if you like, I'll leave this one alone.

 
Yeah, that's what I mean about you contradicting the experts on these issues. We can chat about that again in one of the other threads dedicated to it if you like, I'll leave this one alone.
Sure thing. I think maybe there are better examples out there that aren't as inflammatory because of topic qua topic. This -- C.S. Lewis and democracy -- is a worthy topic.  

 
Sure thing. I think maybe there are better examples out there that aren't as inflammatory because of topic qua topic. This -- C.S. Lewis and democracy -- is a worthy topic.  
I agree.  

Especially because he was at least in significant part talking about white nationalist populism and Nazis.

 
I agree.  

Especially because he was at least in significant part talking about white nationalist populism and Nazis.
Yes. His speeches on the BBC also addressed significant concerns with war with the Nazis and God's role on earth with respect to the war. I've watched quite a bit of documentary footage on the man, and have read some writings, and am just impressed by him. 

I have not read The Screwtape Letters, though SID has now made that one in the short stack.  

I'll really just turn it over to the floor now. The quote just resonated with me and seemed familiar in its critique of democracy as personalized.  

 
Yes. His speeches on the BBC also addressed significant concerns with war with the Nazis and God's role on earth with respect to the war. I've watched quite a bit of documentary footage on the man, and have read some writings, and am just impressed by him. 

I have not read The Screwtape Letters, though SID has now made that one in the short stack.  

I'll really just turn it over to the floor now. The quote just resonated with me and seemed familiar in its critique of democracy as personalized.  
:mellow:

You're.... you're in here discussing the deeper meaning and implications of a passage regarding the unfortunate rise of opinions in the face of ignorance in a book you haven't read?

The Screwtape Letters was published in 1942, but was originally a series of letters published on a weekly basis in The Guardian in 1941 after Germany had started bombing the holy hell out of England.

 
:mellow:

You're.... you're in here discussing the deeper meaning and implications of a passage regarding the unfortunate rise of opinions in the face of ignorance in a book you haven't read?

The Screwtape Letters was published in 1942, but was originally a series of letters published on a weekly basis in The Guardian in 1941 after Germany had started bombing the holy hell out of England.
I was just in here discussing the quote, really. :shrugs: 

That hardly seems criminal or anything. The quote could be from Edmund Burke. It's hardly a new concept. I know what Screwtape is and its history, just never sat down with it.  

 
I was just in here discussing the quote, really. :shrugs: 

That hardly seems criminal or anything. The quote could be from Edmund Burke. It's hardly a new concept. I know what Screwtape is and its history, just never sat down with it.  
Yeah, I was being tongue in cheek.  But it really is a quote for its time (and our current time.)  They're a great read at any time in history, but right now especially.

 
Yeah, I was being tongue in cheek.  But it really is a quote for its time (and our current time.)  They're a great read at any time in history, but right now especially.
Ahhh, okay.  Cool. Caught me in a sensitive moment, I guess. I wasn't trying to pose and then felt bad that I was commenting out of context, really.  :shrugs again:

I'll have to read it. I love when SID and certain others (you included) get a little abstract and into intellectual history, so C.S. Lewis is definitely on the radar to read.  

 
Ahhh, okay.  Cool. Caught me in a sensitive moment, I guess. I wasn't trying to pose and then felt bad that I was commenting out of context, really.  :shrugs again:

I'll have to read it. I love when SID and certain others (you included) get a little abstract and into intellectual history, so C.S. Lewis is definitely on the radar to read.  
Many years after the originals, Lewis published a related work "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" (which is where that specific quote comes from.)  It's about a lot of things, including and especially American education, and that's why I said he was at least partially talking about Nazis. It's a quick read, and you'd probably like it a lot.  It's usually included in the published "Screwtape Letters" these days.

 
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If John McCain could come back down to earth for 15 minutes as a strong young man and beat the snot out of any one person, it wouldn't be Trump, it would be Graham., who lost every single ounce of moral fiber he had in his body once McCain passed away.
Graham hasn't changed.  This is who he's always been.
Yep.  Now that McCain is gone he needs a new powerful person to suck up to.  He chose Trump.

 
>>Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), who is also close to Trump and is the polar opposite of Paul on foreign policy said, “I don’t care about voting on the use of force.”<<

Politico

- Comey’s aphorism about eating of souls seems really apt.

 
Travis Akers @travisakers

JUST IN: Lindsey Graham is stepping down as the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Chuck Grassley will assume Chair, a role he has previously held.

Hmmm....

 
Seems to be a misleading tweet...

Graham is stepping aside - but not until the next congress.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) plans to hand the chairmanship of the Senate Judiciary Committee back to Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa.) in the next Congress.

Graham took over the panel this year from Grassley, who left to chair the Senate Finance Committee.

In an interview Thursday, Graham said Grassley asked to come back after his tenure on the Senate Finance Committee. Graham responded “absolutely.”

“Love Chuck Grassley. That’s the way the Senate works,” Graham said. “He took the Finance Committee so I could be chairman, and he’ll come back and fill out his time, and I’ll come back, and somebody else will come along.”

 
Rick Perry told Trump he was chosen by God

Outgoing Energy Secretary Rick Perry says he told the president recently that he was the "chosen one" sent to accomplish God's plan. Perry recalled the conversation in an interview aired partially on "Fox and Friends" over the weekend. 

"God's used imperfect people all through history. King David wasn't perfect. Saul wasn't perfect. Solomon wasn't perfect. And I actually gave the president a little one-pager on those Old Testament kings about a month ago," Perry said in the clip played over the weekend, referencing biblical kings who were accused of everything from adultery to ordering murders.

"And I shared it with him, I said, 'Mr. President, I know there are people that say you know you said you were the chosen one.' And I said, 'you were.' I said, if you're a believing Christian you understand God's plan for the people who rule and judge over us on this planet in our government."
Rick Perry 2015:

“Let no one be mistaken - Donald Trump's candidacy is a cancer on conservatism, and it must be clearly diagnosed, excised and discarded.”

 
I wasn’t a fan of Lindsay for 20 years, but he has completely won me over.  I could get behind him in 2024 if he decides to run for President.

 
The Kavanaugh hearings for sure. He’s been great ever since. Lindsay has aged like a fine wine.
He’s putting you on. 

Come on @Widbil83 you’re smarter than this. Lindsay is.still the same old establishment centrist Chamber of Commerce Neocon he’s always been. He saw which way the wind was blowing and he’s sucking up to it because he wants to stay in the Senate.  But none of this is real. You know that. 

 
He’s putting you on. 

Come on @Widbil83 you’re smarter than this. Lindsay is.still the same old establishment centrist Chamber of Commerce Neocon he’s always been. He saw which way the wind was blowing and he’s sucking up to it because he wants to stay in the Senate.  But none of this is real. You know that. 
You’re probably right but it’s a pretty good act. And I probably won’t be supporting him in 2024 because he could turn back into a pumpkin (I’ll be supporting Haley in 2024).

 
>>A recent defender of the President, Graham was asked about his previous attacks against Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign, including calling Trump a "race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot."

"I said all of those things. Clearly, I wasn't a fan of his campaign, right?" Graham said Saturday. "But here's the way it has to work. When you lose, accept it. The American people didn't believe that. They made him their president."<<
 

Lindsey Graham at Doha Qatar mideast policy conference.

 
>>A recent defender of the President, Graham was asked about his previous attacks against Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign, including calling Trump a "race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot."

"I said all of those things. Clearly, I wasn't a fan of his campaign, right?" Graham said Saturday. "But here's the way it has to work. When you lose, accept it. The American people didn't believe that. They made him their president."<<
 

Lindsey Graham at Doha Qatar mideast policy conference.
If I ever lose my spine like this guy I hope I'm man enough to throw myself off the first mountain, tall structure, or exposed ledge I find.

 

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