Looks like Brady v Manning is finally settled (1 Viewer)

[astew90]

But he had no heart, and couldn't get it done with any kind of reliability when all the chips were on the line. If not for a one-season defensive miracle when the other side of the ball carried the team to a title, this thing would be 3-0 Brady and would be a laugher.Since Manning didn't really earn the one he's got, it's still a laugher to most who understand the game.

By that logic, Brady didn't earn any of his three. I don't know what everyone else was watching from 2001-04, but it must not have been the same NFL I saw. New England was an outstanding defensive team. Brady happened to be the young QB whose reputation benefitted from being on that team. They played conservative offensive football, and allowed the D to win games.Brady has put up some pretty stats since the championship defense was dismantled, but a lot of that is the product of having a coach like Belichick who never lets off the gas. I've never seen a QB pad his stats like Brady does.I am no Jets fan but if that team caught just a few more breaks in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs, we could be looking at Mark Sanchez as Brady 2.0. Young QB whose coach and defense won him a couple championships.Brady is good, but he has been ridiculously hyped up after those first 4 seasons. Put Manning, Brees, or Roethisberger on a Belichick team and any one of them would have added 3 more rings since 2004.

 

[Reepicheep]

What does a player have to do to qualify for MVP? Is being on the active roster enough to make you eligible? Manning is clearly the Colt's MVP and apparently his presense(and absense) has the biggest impact on his team compared to other candidates. It would be cool to see someone who hasn't played a single down all season get the award.

In order to be the Most Valuable Player, you have to provide value to your team. Manning on the bench is worth zippy to the Colts.

 

[placebo]

This is such a dumb argument. 16 wins to 10 wins is a huge drop, it's the same difference between 8 wins and 2 wins for you mathematicians out there, which may very well be the difference between the Colts with and without Manning this year. They only won 10 games in a pitiful division last season and were trending down with Manning at the helm. And in evaluating the Colts suckiness this year, you have to note that this is not a balanced roster but a team that is built around Manning's strengths, and they do not have and never had interest in having a capable backup QB. Say what you will about Cassell; though he's clearly not in the franchise QB tier, he's also clearly proven he's not in the pathetic Tebow/Painter/Gabbert/Beck tier. Cassell can win with good talent around him, I feel confident in saying Painter could not.

And since Painter sucks, he's not able to utilize the talent the Colts do have on the offensive side of the ball. Wayne, Clark, Collie are good players but have been rendered pretty much worthless with the QB situation. On the defensive side of the ball, the Colts are built to play with the lead. Their best two players are pass rushers. Teams don't have to pass much against the Colts anymore since the Colts are never leading. Put Cassell on this team and they could get 4-6 wins...put Rodgers, Brees, Brady under center and they'd be about as good as they would be with Manning, aside from PM's familiarity with the team/offense. Saying "Colts are 0-8, PM the best QB ever" is just lazy analysis.

 

[BaBastage]

Ridiculous thread. Two completely separate situations.

If you want to present that the Colt's success depended on Manning more than the Patriot's success depended on Brady, then I'm happy to debate and probably support that hypothesis.

But to use any of that do argue one's talent vs the other is silly.

 

[astew90]

Are people still debating Brady v Manning? I thought we'd settled that and moved onto Rodgers v Brees v Manning.

 

[Sarnoff]

Patriots lose Tom Brady at the beginning of the 2008 season. Mediocre, young QB who didn't even play in college comes in and the Patriots go 11-5 and finish 8th in scoring offense.Colts lose Peyton Manning at the beginning of the 2011 season. Mediocre, young QB comes in and the Colts are 0-8 and 30th in scoring offense.Since leaving New England, Cassel is 17-19 as a starter, averaging under 200 yards and almost 1 INT per game.At this point, it's barely even a question that Manning is the better QB. Just like some argued in the mid 2000s, the defense carried Brady early on. As soon as he lost that defense, suddenly he goes from unbeatable to a .500 playoff record, even losing @ home in the divisional round as the #1 seed.Would it be out of the question to award the MVP to a player who won't even take the field? It's pretty clear that there are few people in the history of the NFL who are more valuable to their team than Manning is to the Colts.

Agreed 110%.Also, I believe the reason the Colts haven't placed Manning on IR for the season is to keep him in the conversation for this year's MVP. Absolutely proving week in and week out that he's the single Most Valuable Player for any team in the entire league.

 

[Reepicheep]

Patriots lose Tom Brady at the beginning of the 2008 season. Mediocre, young QB who didn't even play in college comes in and the Patriots go 11-5 and finish 8th in scoring offense.Colts lose Peyton Manning at the beginning of the 2011 season. Mediocre, young QB comes in and the Colts are 0-8 and 30th in scoring offense.Since leaving New England, Cassel is 17-19 as a starter, averaging under 200 yards and almost 1 INT per game.At this point, it's barely even a question that Manning is the better QB. Just like some argued in the mid 2000s, the defense carried Brady early on. As soon as he lost that defense, suddenly he goes from unbeatable to a .500 playoff record, even losing @ home in the divisional round as the #1 seed.Would it be out of the question to award the MVP to a player who won't even take the field? It's pretty clear that there are few people in the history of the NFL who are more valuable to their team than Manning is to the Colts.

Agreed 110%.Also, I believe the reason the Colts haven't placed Manning on IR for the season is to keep him in the conversation for this year's MVP. Absolutely proving week in and week out that he's the single Most Valuable Player for any team in the entire league.

He was valuable last year, when he was playing. If you want to debate retroactively switching the award to him for 2010 that's a different discussion. He has been utterly valueless this year. Why is this so hard for people to understand.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Does the fact that Colts backups were never seriously expected to play, much less were groomed in the offense or given serious snaps in practice or late in games, have anything to do with it?

So Matt Cassel was the heir apparent in New England?

 

[zoonation]

Pretty much just a re-run of what Manning detractors have been saying all along, quite accurately.Nobody was ever better at leading a team against lackluster regular season opponents.But he had no heart, and couldn't get it done with any kind of reliability when all the chips were on the line. If not for a one-season defensive miracle when the other side of the ball carried the team to a title, this thing would be 3-0 Brady and would be a laugher.Since Manning didn't really earn the one he's got, it's still a laugher to most who understand the game.The point of the game has always been to win rings. Winning a fistful of them has never been a guarantee you're great. But failure to do so has always been...and will always be...a guarantee you're not.If you wanted to win a title, Manning shouldn't be one of the first ten QB's from history you'd pick. Brady would be top 3.QED

I love this place sometimes.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Pretty much just a re-run of what Manning detractors have been saying all along, quite accurately.Nobody was ever better at leading a team against lackluster regular season opponents.But he had no heart, and couldn't get it done with any kind of reliability when all the chips were on the line. If not for a one-season defensive miracle when the other side of the ball carried the team to a title, this thing would be 3-0 Brady and would be a laugher.Since Manning didn't really earn the one he's got, it's still a laugher to most who understand the game.The point of the game has always been to win rings. Winning a fistful of them has never been a guarantee you're great. But failure to do so has always been...and will always be...a guarantee you're not.If you wanted to win a title, Manning shouldn't be one of the first ten QB's from history you'd pick. Brady would be top 3.QED

I love this place sometimes.

Yeah he's fishing pretty hard. Better to not pay him any mind.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

Pretty much just a re-run of what Manning detractors have been saying all along, quite accurately.Nobody was ever better at leading a team against lackluster regular season opponents.But he had no heart, and couldn't get it done with any kind of reliability when all the chips were on the line. If not for a one-season defensive miracle when the other side of the ball carried the team to a title, this thing would be 3-0 Brady and would be a laugher.Since Manning didn't really earn the one he's got, it's still a laugher to most who understand the game.The point of the game has always been to win rings. Winning a fistful of them has never been a guarantee you're great. But failure to do so has always been...and will always be...a guarantee you're not.If you wanted to win a title, Manning shouldn't be one of the first ten QB's from history you'd pick. Brady would be top 3.QED

I love this place sometimes.

Didn't Adam V and their defense carry Brady to most of his titles? I don't recall Brady walking on water during at least two of those wins and maybe all of them, but I could be wrong about one. That guys post you quoted with the lmao x3 was absolutely ridiculous. He also needs to understand that football is team sport and TEAM is the only reason Brady has 3 rings.

 

[meanjoegreen]

Pretty much just a re-run of what Manning detractors have been saying all along, quite accurately.Nobody was ever better at leading a team against lackluster regular season opponents.But he had no heart, and couldn't get it done with any kind of reliability when all the chips were on the line. If not for a one-season defensive miracle when the other side of the ball carried the team to a title, this thing would be 3-0 Brady and would be a laugher.Since Manning didn't really earn the one he's got, it's still a laugher to most who understand the game.The point of the game has always been to win rings. Winning a fistful of them has never been a guarantee you're great. But failure to do so has always been...and will always be...a guarantee you're not.If you wanted to win a title, Manning shouldn't be one of the first ten QB's from history you'd pick. Brady would be top 3.QED

I love this place sometimes.

Didn't Adam V and their defense carry Brady to most of his titles?

The Patriots also were cheating during their title runs.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Didn't Adam V and their defense carry Brady to most of his titles?

Despite all the credit that Bellichick gets for being a genius, recall that a lot of the star players on their defense were drafted and developed by Bill Parcells.

 

[Gbagzz]

All that tells you is how bad the Colts organization is. They were all in with Manning. When he went down, they went down.

Manning played in a climate controled dome with multiple offensive pro bowl skill players and won 1 superbowl.

Brady played in some of the worst outdoor December/January conditions in the NFL, with zero offesnive pro bowl skill players and won 3.

Manning and Brady both were in a Superbowl and LOST.

When Brady walked off the field, he gave his team the lead and the Defense choked.

Manning threw a pick 6 to end the game.

You can go back and forth on the nit pick issues but Brady had the better career. Brady did more with less. Brady has more rings. Brady has more Superbowl MVPs. And just as icing on top, Brady one upped Manning single season TD record with 50.

1 and 1a but Brady is better.

 

[Road Warriors]

Does the fact that Colts backups were never seriously expected to play, much less were groomed in the offense or given serious snaps in practice or late in games, have anything to do with it?

So Matt Cassel was the heir apparent in New England?

No, but growing a QB in the system can create value for your team, even if he never plays meaningful games for your franchise. NE has done this fairly well. PHI did with Kolb, ATL with Schaub, etc. If you don't groom your young talent, not only are you underprepared as a franchise if something goes wrong, you lose out on potential value for draft picks / trade opportunities.

 

[nxmehta]

It's finally settled, LeBron > Jordan. When Jordan 1st retired the Bulls only lost 2 additional games and almost made it to the ECF's. When LeBron left Cleveland they lost an additional 42 games!!!GOAT my ####.....

Amazingly Get this thread out of here, seriously...

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Does anyone doubt that the Colts would've had their usual 12 win season this year with a healthy Manning? Now they'll be lucky to win one.

In the entire history of the NFL, even back when the talent pool was much smaller (and hence superstar players had a much larger gap between them and the next guy) I can't think of anyone that's ever made an ELEVEN+ game difference in their team. Probably not even half that. It's pretty ridiculous, really.

If Pats didn't have Brady THIS year they wouldn't have won a single game either. They are a horrid team on defense and take Brady out on offense they have zero weapons.

That's going out on a huge limb there. I haven't seen the last couple NE games so I can't comment on them, but through week 5 or so it had been a long time since I've seen an offensive line as utterly dominant as want NE was rolling out there this year. Brady is clearly on another level from most QBs in the league, which is why he threw for 500 yards in that Miami game in week 1 this year. But you're kidding yourself if you think there's any quarterback in this league who wouldn't have thrown for 350 in that game, Painter included.

Brady's weapons (until recent years of course) have always been FAR inferior to Manning's

I've always wondered how good Peyton's superstars really were and how much of it was just that they happened to be the guys that had Peyton Manning throwing to them. Brandon Stokely looked like an elite player when Peyton was throwing him the ball too.I think Harrison and Edge were legitimately elite players, but is anyone convinced that guys like Reggie Wayne and Austin Collie are? Do we still believe that Dallas Clark is significantly better than any of the other 20 pass catching TEs that litter the NFL now, Hernandez/Gronk included?

And then Cassel went on to be fairly effective QB for the Chiefs. I can't see Painter ever being fairly effective.

When Brady went down, the Pats had Belichick to rally the troops. When Manning went down, the Colts had Caldwell to stand on the sidelines looking dumbfounded.

There is some difference in the variables between the situations.

That's kind of the point. Almost all of the other great quarterbacks in the history of the NFL had great coaches (and defenses) behind them. Brady and Montana both spent the majority of their careers playing for coaches who were way ahead of their time. How many other all-time great quarterbacks were great with lame-duck coaches like Jim Caldwell? How many others did it with defenses that were typically such a sieve that people looked forward to their fantasy football players playing against them?

 

[SacramentoBob]

All that tells you is how bad the Colts organization is. They were all in with Manning. When he went down, they went down.

So Manning carried not just his team, but his organization? Do they give out MVP awards for ownership too?

 

[Run It Up]

Losing his "elite" defense in 2005 and then going to a .500 record at 16-0 in 2007? Herp Durr.

Try re-reading.

Playoff record, gotchya.Fact remains, the argument has been parroted every month since Manning won his first Superbowl. He has never proven that he is a better QB than Brady and the fact that we are even talking about it in a season that Manning isnt even playing is a testament to how much the Manning camp is actually just the Anti-Brady camp.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Manning and Brady both were in a Superbowl and LOST.When Brady walked off the field, he gave his team the lead and the Defense choked.Manning threw a pick 6 to end the game.

That's a horribly stripped down version of the games. Brady led NE to two TDs in a game where the defense got them the ball early and often.Peyton led the Colts to a score almost every time they got the ball but had a defense (and coach *cough* onside kick *cough*) that couldn't get them out there. There was a 20+ minute (in game-time, not real-time) span of the 2nd and 3rd quarter of that Super Bowl where Peyton only got one possession, which ended with a perfectly thrown ball that was dropped.If Peyton had *anyone* helping him out in that Super Bowl then the Colts would have been up by 30 when he took the field on that last drive.

 

[Run It Up]

Manning and Brady both were in a Superbowl and LOST.When Brady walked off the field, he gave his team the lead and the Defense choked.Manning threw a pick 6 to end the game.

That's a horribly stripped down version of the games. Brady led NE to two TDs in a game where the defense got them the ball early and often.Peyton led the Colts to a score almost every time they got the ball but had a defense (and coach *cough* onside kick *cough*) that couldn't get them out there. There was a 20+ minute (in game-time, not real-time) span of the 2nd and 3rd quarter of that Super Bowl where Peyton only got one possession, which ended with a perfectly thrown ball that was dropped.If Peyton had *anyone* helping him out in that Super Bowl then the Colts would have been up by 30 when he took the field on that last drive.

Anybody like every first round draft pick ever in Indy? They build that offense around Manning and he still falls short of Brady, hes easily the #2 IMO (all time) they are both that good.

 

[David Yudkin]

Pats in 2007 with Brady averaged 36.8 ppg.

Pats in 2008 with Cassel through first 8 games averaged 21 ppg.

Net loss: -15.8 ppg.

Colts in 2010 with Manning averaged 27.2 ppg.

Colts in 2011 with Collins and/or Painter through first 8 games averagted 15.1 ppg.

Net loss: -12.1 ppg.

The Pats offense halfway through the season actually lost more scoring wise than the Colts have so far. The main difference is that the Pats offense was so high scoring in 2007 that Cassel brought them much closer to the pack. Over the years, Manning hogged all the playing time and practice time, thus why his back ups have struggled in limited playing time.

Cassel "got it" later in the season with a very easy schedule (mostly Bottom 10 pass defenses except for the Steelers). Painter might step up and do a little better (whether that translates to any wins who knows).

Another item. This year the Colts have allowed 31.5 ppg vs. 24.2 ppg in 2010. That certainly hasn't helped their cause. The Pats defense was still pretty solid with or without Brady.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Pats in 2007 with Brady averaged 36.8 ppg.

Pats in 2008 with Cassel through first 8 games averaged 21 ppg.

Net loss: -15.8 ppg.

Colts in 2010 with Manning averaged 27.2 ppg.

Colts in 2011 with Collins and/or Painter through first 8 games averagted 15.1 ppg.

Net loss: -12.1 ppg.

The Pats offense halfway through the season actually lost more scoring wise than the Colts have so far. The main difference is that the Pats offense was so high scoring in 2007 that Cassel brought them much closer to the pack.

That's a bit disingenous, don't you think? I mean, how many times have you yourself said on these boards that record breaking seasons don't get repeated? Chances are extremely high that the Patriots' offense would have come back down to Earth in 2009 whether the quarterback was Matt Cassel or Tom Brady or Joe Montana.People love to say that Cassel was plugged into the same personnel that broke records the year before, but then no one likes to mention that that personnel stayed the same the next year too, with Brady, and didn't set records again. Heck, the 2008-led Cassel Patriots did basically the same (25.6ppg) as the 2009 Patriots led by Brady with mostly the same personnel (26.6ppg). Anyone want to take wagers on whether the Colts improve by more than 1ppg between this year and next if Manning comes back?

Obviously, there was more than just Cassel to Brady from 2008 to 2009 even though the personnel remained relatively constant, but that's kind of the point. There was more going on from 2008 to 2009 than just the QB change as well.

Unless your point is that the 2009 Patriots were going to go undefeated and break the NFL record for passing TDs again, I don't really see how you can attribute that dropoff to Cassel. There was a natural dropoff built into that season the same way that you wouldn't say LT to Michael Turner was all Turner's fault if he "only" scored 20 TDs in 2007.

As far as the Colts' defense giving up more points this year than last, got any numbers on how the offensive ToP and opponent starting field position compares for the Colts this year vs last? I would wager that the defense is getting put into significantly worse situations, significantly more often this year. That's not even to mention that you're counting points that the Colts' offense is giving up (picks/fumbles to the house) against the defense in your numbers.

This is all kind of futile to argue about anyway though, because while I don't believe there's any backup QB in the league that could make New England half as bad as the Colts are right now, I also think it's pretty clear that Matt Cassel is a significantly better QB than Curtis Painter.

 

[Adebisi]

Patriots lose Tom Brady at the beginning of the 2008 season. Mediocre, young QB who didn't even play in college comes in and the Patriots go 11-5 and finish 8th in scoring offense.Colts lose Peyton Manning at the beginning of the 2011 season. Mediocre, young QB comes in and the Colts are 0-8 and 30th in scoring offense.Since leaving New England, Cassel is 17-19 as a starter, averaging under 200 yards and almost 1 INT per game.At this point, it's barely even a question that Manning is the better QB. Just like some argued in the mid 2000s, the defense carried Brady early on. As soon as he lost that defense, suddenly he goes from unbeatable to a .500 playoff record, even losing @ home in the divisional round as the #1 seed.Would it be out of the question to award the MVP to a player who won't even take the field? It's pretty clear that there are few people in the history of the NFL who are more valuable to their team than Manning is to the Colts.

Or it could be that the Patriots, unlike the Colts, had the foresight to draft and develop a halfway decent backup QB.But your idea is fun, too.

 

[Dizzy]

It is finally settled.Brady 3 ringsManning 1.

Wow, Terry Bradshaw (4 rings) is as good as both of those losers COMBINED!I never knew. Here I was thinking it was a team sport.Can't wait to see those Dolphins/Marino fans at work tomorrow!

 

[SacramentoBob]

Another item. This year the Colts have allowed 31.5 ppg vs. 24.2 ppg in 2010. That certainly hasn't helped their cause. The Pats defense was still pretty solid with or without Brady.

Great point, thanks for pointing this out. Manning obviously has a significant effect on his defense as well. Being able to extend drives and keep his defense off the field keeps them rested. Plus he keeps pressure on the opposing offense by matching any score with a score of his own. It would probably be too much to give him a defensive MVP though.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Pats in 2007 with Brady averaged 36.8 ppg.Pats in 2008 with Cassel through first 8 games averaged 21 ppg.Net loss: -15.8 ppg.Colts in 2010 with Manning averaged 27.2 ppg.Colts in 2011 with Collins and/or Painter through first 8 games averagted 15.1 ppg.Net loss: -12.1 ppg.The Pats offense halfway through the season actually lost more scoring wise than the Colts have so far. The main difference is that the Pats offense was so high scoring in 2007 that Cassel brought them much closer to the pack. Over the years, Manning hogged all the playing time and practice time, thus why his back ups have struggled in limited playing time.Cassel "got it" later in the season with a very easy schedule (mostly Bottom 10 pass defenses except for the Steelers). Painter might step up and do a little better (whether that translates to any wins who knows).Another item. This year the Colts have allowed 31.5 ppg vs. 24.2 ppg in 2010. That certainly hasn't helped their cause. The Pats defense was still pretty solid with or without Brady.

2007 Patriots passing yards per game: 295.72008 Patriots passing yards per game: 223.1 difference of 72.62007 Total yards per game: 411.22008 Total yards per game: 365.4 difference of 45.82010 Colts passing yards per game: 288.12011 Colts passing yards per game: 192.8 difference of 95.32010 Total yards per game: 380.82011 Total yards per game: 294.9 difference of 85.9And if you compare offensive TDs per game, the Patriots had a dropoff of just under half a TD less per game more than the Colts have had.I think it's very easy to argue that the Colts have had a bigger dropoff in production than the Patriots had when they lost Brady, even without controlling for the expected drop back to the mean you'd expect after New England's record breaking 2007 season.

 

[Ghost Rider]

If Pats didn't have Brady THIS year they wouldn't have won a single game either. They are a horrid team on defense and take Brady out on offense they have zero weapons.

While I agree that the Patriots would be up a creek without a paddle this year without Brady, to say they have zero weapons on offense is crazy talk. Both TEs are damn good, and while Welker isn't as good as the numbers he put up early on this year, he is still a damn good possession receiver.

Over the years, Manning hogged all the playing time and practice time, thus why his back ups have struggled in limited playing time.

Teddy Bruschi said that the other day. It sounded stupid when he said it, and, no offense, it sounded stupid when you said it. You don't think Brady (or every other stud QB) doesn't "hog" all of the playing and practice time?

 

[Truman]

I'm just curious to see some one actually address the OP's point...We all know Manning and Brady are great QB's but has there ever been an instance where a team lost one guy and got THIS BAD?

2003 Falcons started 2-11 when Vick went down....and they weren't as good as their record.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

Does anyone doubt that the Colts would've had their usual 12 win season this year with a healthy Manning? Now they'll be lucky to win one.

Yes, I doubt it. Teams get better and worse all the time without QBs changing. To assume that the Colts would be one of the best teams in the league with a healthy Manning is pure fantasy. If PM were healthy, the Colts would probably be 2-6 or so and we'd all be talking about what is wrong with Manning and people would be calling him too old.

As far as giving Manning the MVP because of the fantasy that they would be winning almost every game if Manning had played, I agree with other posters who say that is idiotic. You should give players credit for their accomplishments, not credit for your fantasy of what they might have accomplished if wishes were fishes.

 

[Sabertooth]

Who cares really? Rodgers is better and younger than both.

 

[Reepicheep]

Who cares really? Rodgers is better and younger than both.

Fighting over second place at this point.

 

[SlaX]

It is finally settled.Brady 3 ringsManning 1.

If Vinatieri misses those Superbowl field goals, how many rings does Brady have? And how does that make Brady better?

 

[David Yudkin]

Pats in 2007 with Brady averaged 36.8 ppg.Pats in 2008 with Cassel through first 8 games averaged 21 ppg.Net loss: -15.8 ppg.Colts in 2010 with Manning averaged 27.2 ppg.Colts in 2011 with Collins and/or Painter through first 8 games averagted 15.1 ppg.Net loss: -12.1 ppg.The Pats offense halfway through the season actually lost more scoring wise than the Colts have so far. The main difference is that the Pats offense was so high scoring in 2007 that Cassel brought them much closer to the pack. Over the years, Manning hogged all the playing time and practice time, thus why his back ups have struggled in limited playing time.Cassel "got it" later in the season with a very easy schedule (mostly Bottom 10 pass defenses except for the Steelers). Painter might step up and do a little better (whether that translates to any wins who knows).Another item. This year the Colts have allowed 31.5 ppg vs. 24.2 ppg in 2010. That certainly hasn't helped their cause. The Pats defense was still pretty solid with or without Brady.

2007 Patriots passing yards per game: 295.72008 Patriots passing yards per game: 223.1 difference of 72.62007 Total yards per game: 411.22008 Total yards per game: 365.4 difference of 45.82010 Colts passing yards per game: 288.12011 Colts passing yards per game: 192.8 difference of 95.32010 Total yards per game: 380.82011 Total yards per game: 294.9 difference of 85.9And if you compare offensive TDs per game, the Patriots had a dropoff of just under half a TD less per game more than the Colts have had.I think it's very easy to argue that the Colts have had a bigger dropoff in production than the Patriots had when they lost Brady, even without controlling for the expected drop back to the mean you'd expect after New England's record breaking 2007 season.

I agree that by the end of the season the Colts will likely have a bigger total dropoff with Painter than the Patriots did with Cassel.Put in the beginning of the 2008 season, Pats fans were screaming for NE to go out and get a vet because Cassel was posting very bland numbers.As far as those that were pointing to the Colts and how Manning was responsible for the success of the defense, Indy's D has been slipping some each year for awhile now.2007 16.4 ppg allowed2008 18.6 ppg2009 19.2 ppg2010 24.2 ppg2011 31.5 ppgAs others have mentioned, the 2008 Pats defense > 2011 Colts defense. If Brady went down for the season in 2011, NE would be just as bad as the Colts. Without Brady, NE would also struggle to move the ball and extend drives. As it is, the Pats defense can't get off the field and they would be out there way more than they already are.

 

[David Yudkin]

It is finally settled.Brady 3 ringsManning 1.

If Vinatieri misses those Superbowl field goals, how many rings does Brady have? And how does that make Brady better?

Who knows how those SB games would have ended? The games were tied when AV kicked the FGs. Maybe Brady would get the ball and lead a TD drive in OT. Anyone could come up with an alternate ending that helps or hurts his cause.

 

[cst2006]

Brady's weapons (until recent years of course) have always been FAR inferior to Manning's

I've always wondered how good Peyton's superstars really were and how much of it was just that they happened to be the guys that had Peyton Manning throwing to them. Brandon Stokely looked like an elite player when Peyton was throwing him the ball too.I think Harrison and Edge were legitimately elite players, but is anyone convinced that guys like Reggie Wayne and Austin Collie are? Do we still believe that Dallas Clark is significantly better than any of the other 20 pass catching TEs that litter the NFL now, Hernandez/Gronk included?

Reggie Wayne is a very good route runner and was always great at positioning himself to box out defenders / create space, I think with or without manning he would have made a name for himself in the NFL. And I was referring to the earlier years, where Brady was throwing to guys like David Givens, David Patten, and Daniel Graham. Meanwhile Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. Mannings supporting cast in the early 2000's was lightyears ahead of Brady's.

 

[badmother]

What does a player have to do to qualify for MVP? Is being on the active roster enough to make you eligible? Manning is clearly the Colt's MVP and apparently his presense(and absense) has the biggest impact on his team compared to other candidates. It would be cool to see someone who hasn't played a single down all season get the award.

In order to be the Most Valuable Player, you have to provide value to your team. Manning on the bench is worth zippy to the Colts.

Not only that but MVP stands for Most valuable PLAYER.. so not only do you need to provide value you also need to be a player. Manning is doing neither and he's being talked about as MVP? Whos to say the Colts with Manning take a step back and are a 500 team This year? If you watch the NFL you know it changes from year to year and you can only take so much into past performances to predict the future. I thought even with Manning Houston would win this division.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Excellent fishing by SacBob, especially the Manning for MVP this year part.

That said, I do think the Colts futility this season speaks volumes about Manning's value. Reggie Wayne may be the 2nd most overrated WR in NFL history, behind Marvin Harrison of course.

 

[habsfan]

The Colts collapse without Manning is not a compliment.

This is akin to that person in the office that never wants to take a proper vacation because everything will hit the fan. That's not a sign of dedication, it's a sign of incompetence. If you're organization falls apart with the loss of one guy (however great he is), it means you've been sweeping problems under the rug for a long time...

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

The Colts collapse without Manning is not a compliment.This is akin to that person in the office that never wants to take a proper vacation because everything will hit the fan. That's not a sign of dedication, it's a sign of incompetence. If you're organization falls apart with the loss of one guy (however great he is), it means you've been sweeping problems under the rug for a long time...

You're confusing Manning with the rest of the Colts organization. It's not Manning's fault that the rest of the organization is incompetent. It is a credit to his greatness that he was able to achieve all that he has with such an incompetent organization around him. OTOH Brady has accomplished more than Manning, but he's done so in a very well-run organization with a brilliant head coach, etc. It's simplistic to point to Brady's three rings and conclude that he's better - when you take their coaches and supporting casts and cheating into consideration, I think it's a strong argument for Manning actually being the better player.

 

[The Godfather]

You want to know why the colts are losing? All they hear about is how worthless they are without manning. Parcells used to say give a man an excuse to fail and he will. Well, manning has done nothing but lead this team to believe that they are totally reliant on him, and they have responded predictably.

Manning's neck hurts, but he doesnt need surgery. Well, Manning has never missed a start and i doubt he will now. Ok, Manning might miss a game, but thats it. Sure he's missing time, but Manning is going to be in the booth. No, the field. Now Manning is going to stay off ir so he can practice. Maybe he will play later in the season.

When brady was out, he went on ir right away and he was a mentor to cassel. When manning was out he was a constant distraction and a cancer to the team. All of the players whose careers are intertwined with mannings selfish play over the years deserve better than this.

 

[habsfan]

The Colts collapse without Manning is not a compliment.This is akin to that person in the office that never wants to take a proper vacation because everything will hit the fan. That's not a sign of dedication, it's a sign of incompetence. If you're organization falls apart with the loss of one guy (however great he is), it means you've been sweeping problems under the rug for a long time...

You're confusing Manning with the rest of the Colts organization. It's not Manning's fault that the rest of the organization is incompetent. It is a credit to his greatness that he was able to achieve all that he has with such an incompetent organization around him. OTOH Brady has accomplished more than Manning, but he's done so in a very well-run organization with a brilliant head coach, etc. It's simplistic to point to Brady's three rings and conclude that he's better - when you take their coaches and supporting casts and cheating into consideration, I think it's a strong argument for Manning actually being the better player.

I wasn't really confusing the two in my own mind but the point was off topic I suppose. This disaster isn't an opportunity to celebrate Manning's greatness, it's a clear indication that the Colts were content to let Manning cover up for a lot of mediocrity. How great could he have been if everyone else in the organization had been doing their jobs properly instead of standing around watching Manning do his?

 

[David Yudkin]

You want to know why the colts are losing? All they hear about is how worthless they are without manning. Parcells used to say give a man an excuse to fail and he will. Well, manning has done nothing but lead this team to believe that they are totally reliant on him, and they have responded predictably.Manning's neck hurts, but he doesnt need surgery. Well, Manning has never missed a start and i doubt he will now. Ok, Manning might miss a game, but thats it. Sure he's missing time, but Manning is going to be in the booth. No, the field. Now Manning is going to stay off ir so he can practice. Maybe he will play later in the season. When brady was out, he went on ir right away and he was a mentor to cassel. When manning was out he was a constant distraction and a cancer to the team. All of the players whose careers are intertwined with mannings selfish play over the years deserve better than this.

The last part is not accurate. Brady stayed away from the team for a long, long time (in California I believe) and had repeated issues with his knee. I don't believe he was there for Cassel at all in terms of showing him the ropes or being on the field. They may have spoken on the phone or texted, but they were not both their at practice or on the field on game day.

 

[SacramentoBob]

The Colts collapse without Manning is not a compliment.This is akin to that person in the office that never wants to take a proper vacation because everything will hit the fan. That's not a sign of dedication, it's a sign of incompetence. If you're organization falls apart with the loss of one guy (however great he is), it means you've been sweeping problems under the rug for a long time...

You're confusing Manning with the rest of the Colts organization. It's not Manning's fault that the rest of the organization is incompetent. It is a credit to his greatness that he was able to achieve all that he has with such an incompetent organization around him. OTOH Brady has accomplished more than Manning, but he's done so in a very well-run organization with a brilliant head coach, etc. It's simplistic to point to Brady's three rings and conclude that he's better - when you take their coaches and supporting casts and cheating into consideration, I think it's a strong argument for Manning actually being the better player.

I wasn't really confusing the two in my own mind but the point was off topic I suppose. This disaster isn't an opportunity to celebrate Manning's greatness, it's a clear indication that the Colts were content to let Manning cover up for a lot of mediocrity. How great could he have been if everyone else in the organization had been doing their jobs properly instead of standing around watching Manning do his?

My takeaway from your post is that the NFL is a team game, except for the Colts where the team IS Peyton Manning.So there's no I in team, but there's a Peyton.

 

[Gbagzz]

All that tells you is how bad the Colts organization is. They were all in with Manning. When he went down, they went down.

So Manning carried not just his team, but his organization? Do they give out MVP awards for ownership too?

The poster equated brady and mannings value or skill set to their organization winning or losing w/o them. The argument is who had the better career, not who is more valuable to their team. That s a different argument. My argument to his point was The Colts were all in Manning on Manning so when he went down, they went down. The Patriots were better prepared for that scenario.

 

[Gbagzz]

Manning and Brady both were in a Superbowl and LOST.When Brady walked off the field, he gave his team the lead and the Defense choked.Manning threw a pick 6 to end the game.

That's a horribly stripped down version of the games. Brady led NE to two TDs in a game where the defense got them the ball early and often.Peyton led the Colts to a score almost every time they got the ball but had a defense (and coach *cough* onside kick *cough*) that couldn't get them out there. There was a 20+ minute (in game-time, not real-time) span of the 2nd and 3rd quarter of that Super Bowl where Peyton only got one possession, which ended with a perfectly thrown ball that was dropped.If Peyton had *anyone* helping him out in that Super Bowl then the Colts would have been up by 30 when he took the field on that last drive.

He had pro bowlers throughout his whole career. Edge James, Marvin Harrison, Regg Wayne, Dallas Clark. He's the one that threw the pick 6. He had the weapons... more weapons than Brady. The Colts also won 12 games a year for a decade. Obviously, the Colts were winning inspite of their defense. Where is the outcry about his defense in the regular season? He can win 12 games a year but he can't win in the postseason. The Saints had a ball hawking defense but they were in NO MEANS the 85 Bears.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Another week, another embarrassing loss for the Peyton Manningless Colts. If I had an MVP vote I know how I'd cast my ballot. Another bad loss by the Chiefs solidifies Cassel's average at best status further bolstering my argument that an average QB can run the Pats offense effectively.

 

[SacramentoBob]

9 straight playoff appearances streak snapped for the Colts, with 7 of those years winning the AFC South.

 

[hines]

Manning and Brady both were in a Superbowl and LOST.When Brady walked off the field, he gave his team the lead and the Defense choked.Manning threw a pick 6 to end the game.

That's a horribly stripped down version of the games. Brady led NE to two TDs in a game where the defense got them the ball early and often.Peyton led the Colts to a score almost every time they got the ball but had a defense (and coach *cough* onside kick *cough*) that couldn't get them out there. There was a 20+ minute (in game-time, not real-time) span of the 2nd and 3rd quarter of that Super Bowl where Peyton only got one possession, which ended with a perfectly thrown ball that was dropped.If Peyton had *anyone* helping him out in that Super Bowl then the Colts would have been up by 30 when he took the field on that last drive.

He had pro bowlers throughout his whole career. Edge James, Marvin Harrison, Regg Wayne, Dallas Clark. He's the one that threw the pick 6. He had the weapons... more weapons than Brady. The Colts also won 12 games a year for a decade. Obviously, the Colts were winning inspite of their defense. Where is the outcry about his defense in the regular season? He can win 12 games a year but he can't win in the postseason. The Saints had a ball hawking defense but they were in NO MEANS the 85 Bears.

not sure if any of those guys would be near a pro bowl if not for Manning. Wayne and Harrison were good receivers who lucked into playing with Manning who made them look like great weapons. Manning made all those guys a lot better throughout their career

 

[AmosMoses]

Which Manning are we talking about here?