Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[Bucky86]

Is agreeing with The Onion article new schtick?

 

[jon_mx]

Don't know what's more amusing: SIDA's continual tough guy posts, or GrandpaRox agreeing with any black guy who's willing to say "it's all our own fault".

Don't fret Tom. You are still the most unintentionally amusing poster here.

Got a bone to pick with you. Earlier you accused me of focusing on a few signs at a Tea Party rally and making some generalization out of that. I've never done anything like that. In fact I've spent a lot of time defending the Tea Party from accusations of racism. You read my posts a lot, so you should know better.

Tim you are an enigma. You do all of those things.

 

[timschochet]

Don't know what's more amusing: SIDA's continual tough guy posts, or GrandpaRox agreeing with any black guy who's willing to say "it's all our own fault".

Don't fret Tom. You are still the most unintentionally amusing poster here.

Got a bone to pick with you. Earlier you accused me of focusing on a few signs at a Tea Party rally and making some generalization out of that. I've never done anything like that. In fact I've spent a lot of time defending the Tea Party from accusations of racism. You read my posts a lot, so you should know better.

Tim you are an enigma. You do all of those things.

Link?

 

[Apple Jack]

The airplane repo show is the only reality tv I've ever watched, but I would totally watch a hunting show with SIDA and Grandpa.

 

[Apple Jack]

Best article yet on Ferguson.

Excellent article. Yep. This thug was attacking the officer and he's now dead. Got no problem with that at all. That is what I expect out of my police force. They keep me safe.

Well, that's what they're paid to do. It's their job. Unfortunately, many of them do other stuff too.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Somebody put video of poor Bassem getting his phone stolen on YouTube. ROTFLMAO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWkTAqmJUwc#t=161

I'm going to posting 24/7 unless I am thrown in jail - or have your phone swiped.

that is awesome!

 

[jon_mx]

Don't know what's more amusing: SIDA's continual tough guy posts, or GrandpaRox agreeing with any black guy who's willing to say "it's all our own fault".

Don't fret Tom. You are still the most unintentionally amusing poster here.

Got a bone to pick with you. Earlier you accused me of focusing on a few signs at a Tea Party rally and making some generalization out of that. I've never done anything like that. In fact I've spent a lot of time defending the Tea Party from accusations of racism. You read my posts a lot, so you should know better.

Tim you are an enigma. You do all of those things.

 

[timschochet]

Don't know what's more amusing: SIDA's continual tough guy posts, or GrandpaRox agreeing with any black guy who's willing to say "it's all our own fault".

Don't fret Tom. You are still the most unintentionally amusing poster here.

Got a bone to pick with you. Earlier you accused me of focusing on a few signs at a Tea Party rally and making some generalization out of that. I've never done anything like that. In fact I've spent a lot of time defending the Tea Party from accusations of racism. You read my posts a lot, so you should know better.

Tim you are an enigma. You do all of those things.

link to when I've ever clef the Tea Party racist?

 

[SIDA!]

The airplane repo show is the only reality tv I've ever watched, but I would totally watch a hunting show with SIDA and Grandpa.

But, I am not a good hunter. I would just wait for some deer to come by and try to #### with me each episode. And since they mind their own business and I mind mine ( ), nothing would happen.

What I think I will do is the next time there is a situation similar to Ferguson, I will see if a business owner wants to sell me a 10% stake. And then I will post up. Click clack.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What's wrong with his points to pull up your pants and stop being a thug, it's ok to be smart and successful, and stop telling other black folks that they're not black enough? Other than a male role model inside the community, again I'll ask you who would be a better person to send that message other than an African American male that has the outlets and resources to spread that message?

The first point: "pull up your pants and stop being a thug" is meaningless advice. How people dress is 100% irrelevant to their character, and "stop being a thug" is stupid, pointless advice if you offer no further insight.

The second one: Most people, regardless of color, already know it's OK to be smart and successful. Yes, some people in the black community ostracize people who do well in school and resent those who are successful. You know who else does that? Everyone. Were the straight A students at your high school the popular ones who got laid all the time? I'm guessing not- certainly wasn't the case at my school. Ever make jokes at the expense of wealthy, privileged people? I hear them all the time.

The last one: lots of black men have the outlets and resources to spread messages and the intelligence to spread better messages than the overly simplified stuff you get from Cosby and Barkley. I just read this interview with Killer Mike a couple minutes ago. This is a guy who on the surface actually seems exactly like the kind of person Cosby and perhaps Barkley would complain about, with baggy clothes and lots of cussing and lyrics and even an alias that some might say glorify violence. Yet he lives a life that by all appearances should be admired and respected, whereas Cosby is a piece of garbage and Barkley is certainly nobody's idea of a class act. And my (admittedly uneducated) guess is that he's got the ears of young black men far more than Cosby or Barkley. If he doesn't, maybe he should.

 

[squistion]

link to when I've ever clef the Tea Party racist?

My impression was that you had said that. But a cursory search proved you right:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=539033&page=2

It can't be racist until Timschochet declares it is so

Thank you, that's right. And I declare that the Tea Party is not racist. It is populist. There are racists within the Tea Party movement, but there are racists within every major political movement. Most Tea Party members are not concerned at all about racial issues: they are concerned about the economy, and the level of government intrusion upon our free market system. I am sympathetic to their views and I think that in general they honestly want what's best for America. But their solutions are simplistic and, IMO, dangerous.

 

[SIDA!]

link to when I've ever clef the Tea Party racist?

My impression was that you had said that. But a cursory search proved you right:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=539033&page=2

It can't be racist until Timschochet declares it is so

Thank you, that's right. And I declare that the Tea Party is not racist. It is populist. There are racists within the Tea Party movement, but there are racists within every major political movement. Most Tea Party members are not concerned at all about racial issues: they are concerned about the economy, and the level of government intrusion upon our free market system. I am sympathetic to their views and I think that in general they honestly want what's best for America. But their solutions are simplistic and, IMO, dangerous.

Is it possible to do a cursory search of 100,000 posts?

 

[TheAristocrat]

Hey Eminence stop whining like a little #####. If you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't post in this forum. This is an open discussion, and if you say foolish things, you will be subject to ridicule.

Open discussion, there's never an excuse for personal attacks the same way there's never an excuse to burn down your community.Bucky has no right to come in and talk crap to me. Especially if he's allegedly got me on block.

We don't do that here.

Go stock some tampons, idiot.

I was laughing about this comment throughout a two hour meeting where I couldn't be reading this thread.

 

[lod01]

CNN: Extremely stupid woman blaming prosecuting attorney for the destruction.

 

[squistion]

link to when I've ever clef the Tea Party racist?

My impression was that you had said that. But a cursory search proved you right:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=539033&page=2

It can't be racist until Timschochet declares it is so

Thank you, that's right. And I declare that the Tea Party is not racist. It is populist. There are racists within the Tea Party movement, but there are racists within every major political movement. Most Tea Party members are not concerned at all about racial issues: they are concerned about the economy, and the level of government intrusion upon our free market system. I am sympathetic to their views and I think that in general they honestly want what's best for America. But their solutions are simplistic and, IMO, dangerous.

Is it possible to do a cursory search of 100,000 posts?

Just did a quick Google search and picked the first choice and found Tim's comments in the thread.

https://www.google.com/search?rls=aso&client=gmail&q=footballguys.com%2Btea%20party%2Bracist%20

 

[Eminence]

Hey Eminence stop whining like a little #####. If you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't post in this forum. This is an open discussion, and if you say foolish things, you will be subject to ridicule.

Open discussion, there's never an excuse for personal attacks the same way there's never an excuse to burn down your community.Bucky has no right to come in and talk crap to me. Especially if he's allegedly got me on block.

We don't do that here.

Go stock some tampons, idiot.

I was laughing about this comment throughout a two hour meeting where I couldn't be reading this thread.

Pathetic, low browed humor. I hope your kids never work a retail job while they're in college.

 

[jon_mx]

Don't know what's more amusing: SIDA's continual tough guy posts, or GrandpaRox agreeing with any black guy who's willing to say "it's all our own fault".

Don't fret Tom. You are still the most unintentionally amusing poster here.

Got a bone to pick with you. Earlier you accused me of focusing on a few signs at a Tea Party rally and making some generalization out of that. I've never done anything like that. In fact I've spent a lot of time defending the Tea Party from accusations of racism. You read my posts a lot, so you should know better.

Tim you are an enigma. You do all of those things.

link to when I've ever clef the Tea Party racist?

I am driving. I can't remember what exactly I said to see if that properly captures what I was saying nor is it easy to search and respond. You do have a tendency to over generalize about groups, but you also not fast to call someone racist and are fair in that specific area.

 

[MaxThreshold]

link to when I've ever clef the Tea Party racist?

My impression was that you had said that. But a cursory search proved you right:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=539033&page=2

It can't be racist until Timschochet declares it is so

Thank you, that's right. And I declare that the Tea Party is not racist. It is populist. There are racists within the Tea Party movement, but there are racists within every major political movement. Most Tea Party members are not concerned at all about racial issues: they are concerned about the economy, and the level of government intrusion upon our free market system. I am sympathetic to their views and I think that in general they honestly want what's best for America. But their solutions are simplistic and, IMO, dangerous.

Is it possible to do a cursory search of 100,000 posts?

Just did a quick Google search and picked the first choice.

https://www.google.com/search?rls=aso&client=gmail&q=footballguys.com%2Btea%20party%2Bracist%20

So that's why Google was taking forever with my searches earlier at work. You queried it to search thru ALL tim's posts.

 

[Jackstraw]

Do people still wear their jeans around their butts? Is that still a thing or is it some kind of zombie stereotype?

 

[SIDA!]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

 

[TheAristocrat]

Really appreciate the back and forth between Yankee23Fan and TobiasFunke today.

 

[rockaction]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

I know people are complaining about your tone in this thread, but it does seem an awful lot like you were supposed to defend your own property with guns because other people weren't going to help you do it.

Major miscalculation last night. People overreacted to the first military-style response to the protestors and seemed to forget that both time and outside agitation had set in, possibly necessitating a militaristic response to the grand jury indictment/non-indictment.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

They were 10 minutes away.

 

[SIDA!]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

They were 10 minutes away.

I guess they were playing real life tough guys instead of my internet version? I assume that is the implication.

Clearly, you are omniscient and know how far mayhem and anarchy will spread, right? Never doubted for a second that violence would spread outside the immediate area? Take a look at this interactive map with locations of vandalism. It wasn't contained to a couple of blocks.

http://www.kmov.com/special-coverage-001/Interactive-Map-Ferguson-fires-looting-and-violence-283806771.html

So many incredibly naive posters in this thread.

 

[Sand]

black people loot food, white people find food

Awful.

 

[jonessed]

It's looking like the governor screwed up and didn't give Ferguson the National Guard support they were promised. Apparently they are better prepared for tonight. What a cluster-####.

 

[Slapdash]

Hey Eminence stop whining like a little #####. If you can't handle criticism, then you shouldn't post in this forum. This is an open discussion, and if you say foolish things, you will be subject to ridicule.

Open discussion, there's never an excuse for personal attacks the same way there's never an excuse to burn down your community.Bucky has no right to come in and talk crap to me. Especially if he's allegedly got me on block.

We don't do that here.

Go stock some tampons, idiot.

I was laughing about this comment throughout a two hour meeting where I couldn't be reading this thread.

Pathetic, low browed humor. I hope your kids never work a retail job while they're in college.

Because you might be their manager?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

black people loot food, white people find food

Awful.

Wow, I missed that before. That really is terrible and/or depending on your mood.

 

[timschochet]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

SiDA, I think it's fine for a store owner to be armed. I think it's fine for a store owner and his friends to show that they are armed. I even think it's fine for a store owner to fire a few warning shots, if necessary, to protect his property. But actually firing directly at looters in order to protect property, not people, killing people who you think are about to loot your property? That's crossing the line, IMO. Unacceptable. And when you write that you wouldn't lose a moments sleep over it, I don't believe you. I don't know you at all, but I refuse to believe that you are so unemotional as to be completely unaffected by causing the death of another. If it's true I feel sorry for you...and a little frightened.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Odds of rioting again tonight?

 

[jonessed]

Odds of rioting again tonight?

Apparently they are actually going to deploy the National Guard so I would think a lot less.

 

[SIDA!]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

. If it's true I feel sorry for you...and a little frightened.

Don't try to take my ####, destroy my business or hurt my family or myself and there is no need for you to be frightened. In the situation described above, I would not have caused the death of another. They engaged in a series of decisions that led to their death.

They valued my stuff more than their life. You can try to re-direct blame and absolve others of being accountable for their own actions. If that makes you feel good about yourself, go with it.

Protecting my #### makes me feel good.

 

[SIDA!]

Odds of rioting again tonight?

Apparently they are actually going to deploy the National Guard so I would think a lot less.

Well, Ferguson does need more public safety personnel with guns to stand around like security guards while buildings get looted and burned to the ground. Observe and Report.

 

[SIDA!]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

 

[Bucky86]

Here is an article about a couple of businesses near the rioting where the owners and friends pretended to be Rambo and stood guard, armed with pistols and assault rifles. Silly dumbasses obviously didn't understand that the law enforcement personnel and National Guard troops had them covered...

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2014/08/ferguson_riots_north_county_business_owners_some_armed_survey_the_damage.php

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/armed-guards-at-strip-mall-save-north-st-louis-businesses-from-looters/

. If it's true I feel sorry for you...and a little frightened.

Don't try to take my ####, destroy my business or hurt my family or myself and there is no need for you to be frightened. In the situation described above, I would not have caused the death of another. They engaged in a series of decisions that led to their death.

They valued my stuff more than their life. You can try to re-direct blame and absolve others of being accountable for their own actions. If that makes you feel good about yourself, go with it.

Protecting my #### makes me feel good.

Odds of rioting again tonight?

Apparently they are actually going to deploy the National Guard so I would think a lot less.

Well, Ferguson does need more public safety personnel with guns to stand around like security guards while buildings get looted and burned to the ground. Observe and Report.

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

Wow dude...breathe.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

He probably saw that white guy that jon_mx saw in the subway slap video.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

 

[rockaction]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

Or an overly frustrated person that's sickened by what he feels is an inadequate display of deterrence while one of the cornerstones of our particular form of social contract (property) goes completely unguarded by the authorities whose grant of force we've given while taking it away from ourselves.

 

[SIDA!]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

You gleamed that from the copying and pasting of a quote by the owner of a looted business. That was impressive.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

They had really good insurance and inside are rejoicing that they'll never have to work again.

 

[Bucky86]

just read SIDA!'s Facebook link. Which one of you guys is schticking it up as the racist grandpa in the nursing home?

 

[Henry Ford]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

You gleamed that from the copying and pasting of a quote by the owner of a looted business. That was impressive.

Ideas get gleaned. Cubes get gleamed.

 

[SIDA!]

Rockaction - that is some crazy talk!



We're supposed to just sit and accept bull#### statements from elected leaders and police chiefs about how they were unable to protect our businesses and property from looters when they had weeks to prepare. I guess the National Guard is only deployed one weekend a month...

 

[Limp Ditka]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

You gleamed that from the copying and pasting of a quote by the owner of a looted business. That was impressive.

Ideas get gleaned. Cubes get gleamed.

To be fair, my thoughts do shine rather brightly.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Darren Wilson being interviewed on ABC world news right now

 

[SIDA!]

just read SIDA!'s Facebook link. Which one of you guys is schticking it up as the racist grandpa in the nursing home?

ROTFLMAO

 

[Gawain]

Who the heck uses the term "coloreds?" It's the most wishy-washy racist term I could think of, next to Orientals.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Rockaction - that is some crazy talk!



We're supposed to just sit and accept bull#### statements from elected leaders and police chiefs about how they were unable to protect our businesses and property from looters when they had weeks to prepare. I guess the National Guard is only deployed one weekend a month...

No. We vote them out of office for being incompetent at handling their responsibilities.

 

[SIDA!]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

You gleamed that from the copying and pasting of a quote by the owner of a looted business. That was impressive.

Ideas get gleaned. Cubes get gleamed.

LOL...thanks for the spelling correction, "Chef". Last time I checked, the "n" was right next to the "m" on a standard keyboard.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Interesting comment from the owner of Red's BBQ joint on their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOriginalRedsBbq/

There are not just "coloreds" burning our business down... It is AMERICANS. it was an effect of anger. We are deeply saddened, but understand the passion of this situation. Seek more information than what CNN and FOX is telling you.

Thoughts?

You're a paranoid fool that compensates for your short comings in life with the fantasy of being put into a situation where you can rightfully pull that trigger and take another person's life.

You gleamed that from the copying and pasting of a quote by the owner of a looted business. That was impressive.

Ideas get gleaned. Cubes get gleamed.

LOL...thanks for the spelling correction, "Chef". Last time I checked, the "n" was right next to the "m" on a standard keyboard.

Where's the 'I'?