Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (1 Viewer)

[Ditka Butkus]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

Now you're just being ignorant. Read about the ####### case and gain a clue before you come in here with your unsubstantiated opinions.

The most credible eyewitnesses to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., said he had charged toward Police Officer Darren Wilson just before the final, fatal shots

It's the first ####### sentence in this article:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-michael-brown-charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html?referrer=

Just playing devils advocate, what if the most credible eyewitness he is referring to, is Wilson himself....Have they named said witness?

 

[Billy Bats]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

Now you're just being ignorant. Read about the ####### case and gain a clue before you come in here with your unsubstantiated opinions.The most credible eyewitnesses to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., said he had charged toward Police Officer Darren Wilson just before the final, fatal shots

It's the first ####### sentence in this article:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-michael-brown-charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html?referrer=

..., the St. Louis County prosecutor said Monday night.

It's not the article saying those were the most credible eyewitnesses, it's the prosecutor.

If you're going to get angry at other people's supposed "ignorance," at least finish reading "the first ####### sentence of this article" before you come in here ranting and raving.

Jesus Christ. I give up with some of you fools. Happy thanksgiving everyone, I'm out.

 

[timschochet]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

Now you're just being ignorant. Read about the ####### case and gain a clue before you come in here with your unsubstantiated opinions. The most credible eyewitnesses to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., said he had charged toward Police Officer Darren Wilson just before the final, fatal shots

It's the first ####### sentence in this article:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-michael-brown-charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html?referrer=

First, I haven't insulted you, so please don't insult me. Second, yes I understand that's what the prosecutor said Monday night, and I found him very compelling. But the more I thought about it, the more I wondered: why was this one witness more credible than several other witnesses who said that Brown didn't charge Wilson? According to the prosecutor, it was because this witness was consistent with the physical evidence. But what physical evidence is there that showed that Brown charged Wilson? I haven't been able to find it. Nobody has reported on it. Perhaps the prosecutor was referring to another piece of physical evidence? If so, that hasn't been presented either.

So I'm back to square one. Why is this one witness more credible? Because he's black and corroborates Wilson's story? That's important, and in point of fact it's enough for me to decide that Wilson will never be convicted and so should not be indicted. But in itself it's not enough for me to believe that Wilson is telling the truth because it makes no sense to me that this charge took place.

 

[Doug B]

Logic tells me Wilson identified Brown as a possible suspect in the theft earlier,

This point is pretty murky -- Wilson did not say this in his early depositions.

That said, I don't think it's particularly relevant to Wilson's defense. It might suggest something about Brown's mindset and motivation at the time of the altercation with Wilson, though.

 

[rick6668]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

When you examine the foot impressions Brown left in the pavement and measure the distance between them, you have your answer.

JFC. There is no physical evidence of that on pavement. There can't be. There is eyewitness testimony. Just wondering when you guys are going to jump on the 'they must have paid these people off to make those statements' angle.

Tim, I told you that without video evidence you wouldn't believe it no matter what testimony was given. Give me an example of physical evidence that could exist that he was charging. I think you're asking for something that can't exist.

 

[lod01]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

When you examine the foot impressions Brown left in the pavement and measure the distance between them, you have your answer.

There was a blood pattern on the sidewalk, though. I thought it was established that Brown was moving forward between the first shot and the last one.

But I can't imagine that would determine 'charging' vs 'walking' towards him.

 

[whiskey7]

Woke up this morning here in Minneapolis without having watched then news last night to see that there were 1,000+ protesters here locally, and that two cars/vans essentially drove through the crowds.

#1 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283893441.html#sfcri

#2 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283919501.html#sfcri

WTF?! I'm absolutely dumbfounded how people are clinging to this as some massive injustice and willing to rally because of this ruling, when the evidence would reasonably lead one down the path towards this being a justifiable shooting of an 18 year old whom had just committed a "hey I'm taking #### from your store so what are you going to do about it" theft.

The wheels have officially come off of this country. Find a better cause to rally around and do dumb #### like blocking traffic. I hope one of these idiots' family members needs medical care and can't get it because they're blocking streets in support of a criminal whom was killed.

Yep. Not unexpectedly, we're seeing all the causies, punks, clowns, maggots, etc join in this #### show and ensure it becomes as big an embarrassment as possible. SMH

 

[Bucky86]

Can we get a lod1 post count for this thread?

 

[GoBirds]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

Now you're just being ignorant. Read about the ####### case and gain a clue before you come in here with your unsubstantiated opinions.The most credible eyewitnesses to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., said he had charged toward Police Officer Darren Wilson just before the final, fatal shots

It's the first ####### sentence in this article:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-michael-brown-charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html?referrer=

First, I haven't insulted you, so please don't insult me.Second, yes I understand that's what the prosecutor said Monday night, and I found him very compelling. But the more I thought about it, the more I wondered: why was this one witness more credible than several other witnesses who said that Brown didn't charge Wilson? According to the prosecutor, it was because this witness was consistent with the physical evidence. But what physical evidence is there that showed that Brown charged Wilson? I haven't been able to find it. Nobody has reported on it. Perhaps the prosecutor was referring to another piece of physical evidence? If so, that hasn't been presented either.

So I'm back to square one. Why is this one witness more credible? Because he's black and corroborates Wilson's story? That's important, and in point of fact it's enough for me to decide that Wilson will never be convicted and so should not be indicted. But in itself it's not enough for me to believe that Wilson is telling the truth because it makes no sense to me that this charge took place.

The prosecutor said witnesses were not consistent with their story. If someones story changes each time are you going to believe them?

 

[StrikeS2k]

There's been about a dozen posts this morning all asking the same thing: why, given the evidence, do some people still believe that Michael Brown was wrongfully killed? You guys just can't understand it. Ivan K offered a patronizing answer: because they've made their minds up already. Which implies that the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Wilson's story.

Except it isn't. From the beginning there were 3 key questions related to this event: what exactly happened at the car? How far away was Brown when Wilson fired at him outside of the car? Did Brown actually charge at Wilson? (This last question being the most important of all). We still don't know the answers to any of these questions. Most of you have simply accepted Wilson's story as to what happened. I don't, particularly with regard to the last question, because I don't think it's plausible, and there's no evidence other than his statement. So no, sorry Ivan, it's not because I've already made my mind up (quite the contrary in my case) but because neither you nor anyone else have provided evidence or reason to change it in this instance. I believe that Michael Brown was wrongfully killed because he was at least 35 feet away from Wilson and was therefore not a threat to Wilson, even if he had been earlier. If Brown had meant to kill Wilson, I don't think he would have walked away from him in the first place. That's what my common sense tells me, and nothing has been presented to contradict it so far.

ROFLMAO. The other night, when the DA presented the FACTS and the findings of the GJ you were more than satisfied. It's funny how you change your tune repeatedly on issues on a whim.

 

[lod01]

Logic tells me Wilson identified Brown as a possible suspect in the theft earlier,

This point is pretty murky -- Wilson did not say this in his early depositions.

That said, I don't think it's particularly relevant to Wilson's defense. It might suggest something about Brown's mindset and motivation at the time of the altercation with Wilson, though.

That is how it would be presented. Wilson did in fact know the robbery occurred via his radio. That radio transmission should be recorded and time stamped.

 

[lod01]

Can we get a lod1 post count for this thread?

I'm all over Tim's ####. I'll guess I have moved into 2nd place.

 

[lod01]

Woke up this morning here in Minneapolis without having watched then news last night to see that there were 1,000+ protesters here locally, and that two cars/vans essentially drove through the crowds.

#1 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283893441.html#sfcri

#2 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283919501.html#sfcri

WTF?! I'm absolutely dumbfounded how people are clinging to this as some massive injustice and willing to rally because of this ruling, when the evidence would reasonably lead one down the path towards this being a justifiable shooting of an 18 year old whom had just committed a "hey I'm taking #### from your store so what are you going to do about it" theft.

The wheels have officially come off of this country. Find a better cause to rally around and do dumb #### like blocking traffic. I hope one of these idiots' family members needs medical care and can't get it because they're blocking streets in support of a criminal whom was killed.

Yep. Not unexpectedly, we're seeing all the causies, punks, clowns, maggots, etc join in this #### show and ensure it becomes as big an embarrassment as possible. SMH

Don't forget the sub-humans for Bucky86's sake.

 

[timschochet]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

 

[Doug B]

There was a blood pattern on the sidewalk, though. I thought it was established that Brown was moving forward between the first shot and the last one.

But I can't imagine that would determine 'charging' vs 'walking' towards him.

Probably true. To me, at least, that doesn't really matter because I think turning 180o + going to his waistband brought on the initial shot(s). After that, whatever movement of whatever speed/type towards Wilson eventually brought on the final shot.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Can we get a lod1 post count for this thread?

I'm all over Tim's ####. I'll guess I have moved into 2nd place.

328. Third place.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

What if in Browns mind he thought #### you whitey I'm tired of you ####### shooting at me and he turned and charged.

 

[lod01]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

Now you're just being ignorant. Read about the ####### case and gain a clue before you come in here with your unsubstantiated opinions.

The most credible eyewitnesses to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., said he had charged toward Police Officer Darren Wilson just before the final, fatal shots

It's the first ####### sentence in this article:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-michael-brown-charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html?referrer=

..., the St. Louis County prosecutor said Monday night.

It's not the article saying those were the most credible eyewitnesses, it's the prosecutor.

If you're going to get angry at other people's supposed "ignorance," at least finish reading "the first ####### sentence of this article" before you come in here ranting and raving.

So ####### what? He said it because that's what the GJ determined. Haven't you figured out that they allowed the GJ to make the decision?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Wow. Here's what you said after the prosecutor spoke the other night:

Yep. It was this charge that always made me doubt Wilson's story. I never believed it likely that any unarmed person, even a thug, would charge a police officer firing bullets at him. But I guess it actually did happen. Brown must have been one crazy mother####er.

But here we are, a mere two days later with no additional evidence having been presented, and you're waffling again.

 

[Henry Ford]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

Now you're just being ignorant. Read about the ####### case and gain a clue before you come in here with your unsubstantiated opinions.

The most credible eyewitnesses to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., said he had charged toward Police Officer Darren Wilson just before the final, fatal shots

It's the first ####### sentence in this article:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/witnesses-told-grand-jury-that-michael-brown-charged-at-darren-wilson-prosecutor-says.html?referrer=

No, it's the first third of the first sentence. Keep reading the rest of the sentence.

 

[BigJohn]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Brown runs, Wilson yells, brown stops, turns around then words are exchanged and Brown starts to charge Wilson, who shoots. Didn't Brown fall face-first, towards Wilson? Why is it so unbelievable that Brown moved towards Wilson?

 

[lod01]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

The blood evidence shows Brown moving towards Wilson after running away.

 

[Doug B]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

"Charging" is not extablished, but (from Oct 23):

In interviews with The Post, sources said blood spatter evidence shows that Brown was heading toward the officer during their faceoff, but analysis of the evidence did not reveal how fast Brown was moving.

 

[GoBirds]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

You need to spend more time focused on leasing/selling your listing, you are on here way to much.

 

[lod01]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

"Charging" is not extablished, but (from Oct 23):

In interviews with The Post, sources said blood spatter evidence shows that Brown was heading toward the officer during their faceoff, but analysis of the evidence did not reveal how fast Brown was moving.

As I had guessed.

 

[Doug B]

Did Brown actually charge at Wilson? (This last question being the most important of all). We still don't know the answers to any of these questions. Most of you have simply accepted Wilson's story as to what happened. I don't, particularly with regard to the last question, because I don't think it's plausible, and there's no evidence other than his statement.

Wilson's account is the one and only account that Brown turned back upon Wilson? I thought there was some other testimony that backed Wilson up ...

There is. He's talking out of his ### again.

We can all discuss this reasonably without the invectives.

 

[timschochet]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Wow. Here's what you said after the prosecutor spoke the other night:

Yep. It was this charge that always made me doubt Wilson's story. I never believed it likely that any unarmed person, even a thug, would charge a police officer firing bullets at him. But I guess it actually did happen. Brown must have been one crazy mother####er.

But here we are, a mere two days later with no additional evidence having been presented, and you're waffling again.

BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

When you examine the foot impressions Brown left in the pavement and measure the distance between them, you have your answer.

JFC. There is no physical evidence of that on pavement. There can't be. There is eyewitness testimony. Just wondering when you guys are going to jump on the 'they must have paid these people off to make those statements' angle.

Tim, I told you that without video evidence you wouldn't believe it no matter what testimony was given. Give me an example of physical evidence that could exist that he was charging. I think you're asking for something that can't exist.

Being shot multiple times it is possible that each shot produced blood splatter. Were Brown moving forward and he were shot sequentially causing blood splatter which often reaches the ground I would expect to see an advancing pattern of different sequential splatters. Not the problem is the splatter can be, in some wounds, nearly nonexistent, and in wounds in clothed areas be not so much splatter as absorbed leaks.

I am saying that there is a possibility of physical evidence, but I am not placing a probability on that possibility. Just sort of responding to the question you asked without me taking a position

 

[TobiasFunke]

Did Brown actually charge at Wilson? (This last question being the most important of all). We still don't know the answers to any of these questions. Most of you have simply accepted Wilson's story as to what happened. I don't, particularly with regard to the last question, because I don't think it's plausible, and there's no evidence other than his statement.

Wilson's account is the one and only account that Brown turned back upon Wilson? I thought there was some other testimony that backed Wilson up ...

There is. He's talking out of his ### again.

We can all discuss this reasonably without the invectives.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? And yet ...

 

[lod01]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Wow. Here's what you said after the prosecutor spoke the other night:

Yep. It was this charge that always made me doubt Wilson's story. I never believed it likely that any unarmed person, even a thug, would charge a police officer firing bullets at him. But I guess it actually did happen. Brown must have been one crazy mother####er.

But here we are, a mere two days later with no additional evidence having been presented, and you're waffling again.

BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

Boatloads of people's actions make no sense. This guy is not the first unarmed man to charge an officer with a gun.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/26249861/unarmed-man-shot-killed-by-dallas-pd-charged-at-officer

The above article should end this thought process once and for all.

 

[Doug B]

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

I believe this is a rough sketch of what happened, but that there was a little more going on at the "Brown turns around" step. That was a hair-trigger moment when a sudden, typically-innocuous movement leads to shots fired.

 

[bryhamm]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

LOL. Just when I think he couldn't get any better.

Hey, we have witnesses that corroborated Wilson's story. But tim says that there are others that didn't (psst ... they were discredited because it didn't match the physical evidence), so let's just throw all of it out. Really? So all it takes in your mind is someone to counter a witness story and you want to throw it all out. Instead of maybe digging into things to try and figure out what is credible and what isn't ... like maybe what the grand jury did.

 

[timschochet]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

LOL. Just when I think he couldn't get any better.

Hey, we have witnesses that corroborated Wilson's story. But tim says that there are others that didn't (psst ... they were discredited because it didn't match the physical evidence), so let's just throw all of it out. Really? So all it takes in your mind is someone to counter a witness story and you want to throw it all out. Instead of maybe digging into things to try and figure out what is credible and what isn't ... like maybe what the grand jury did.

Youre very good at repeating what the prosecutor said. Can you describe what the physical evidence was that matched some testimony and not others?

 

[timschochet]

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

I believe this is a rough sketch of what happened, but that there was a little more going on at the "Brown turns around" step. That was a hair-trigger moment when a sudden, typically-innocuous movement leads to shots fired.

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

There's been about a dozen posts this morning all asking the same thing: why, given the evidence, do some people still believe that Michael Brown was wrongfully killed? You guys just can't understand it. Ivan K offered a patronizing answer: because they've made their minds up already. Which implies that the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Wilson's story.

Except it isn't. From the beginning there were 3 key questions related to this event: what exactly happened at the car? How far away was Brown when Wilson fired at him outside of the car? Did Brown actually charge at Wilson? (This last question being the most important of all). We still don't know the answers to any of these questions. Most of you have simply accepted Wilson's story as to what happened. I don't, particularly with regard to the last question, because I don't think it's plausible, and there's no evidence other than his statement. So no, sorry Ivan, it's not because I've already made my mind up (quite the contrary in my case) but because neither you nor anyone else have provided evidence or reason to change it in this instance. I believe that Michael Brown was wrongfully killed because he was at least 35 feet away from Wilson and was therefore not a threat to Wilson, even if he had been earlier. If Brown had meant to kill Wilson, I don't think he would have walked away from him in the first place. That's what my common sense tells me, and nothing has been presented to contradict it so far.

That's somewhat the point. We don't know for sure what happened and never will. We are back to square 1 in this thread. I don't understand the point of debating either side of something we will never know. All we know is that the GJ decided not to indict based on the evidence available.

Im gonna go out on a limb and guess that the prosecutor works with these cops every day in court and is friends with many of them including Wilson,so im sure there is no bias here lol

 

[Doug B]

BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

Tim think about it philosophically -- why should it necesarily make sense? Nonsensical things -- mostly mundane, a few profound -- happend with frequency in daily life. Why should the Michael Brown shooting be especially exempt from nonsensicality (if I may coin a word)?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Wow. Here's what you said after the prosecutor spoke the other night:

Yep. It was this charge that always made me doubt Wilson's story. I never believed it likely that any unarmed person, even a thug, would charge a police officer firing bullets at him. But I guess it actually did happen. Brown must have been one crazy mother####er.

But here we are, a mere two days later with no additional evidence having been presented, and you're waffling again.

BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

 

[bryhamm]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

LOL. Just when I think he couldn't get any better.

Hey, we have witnesses that corroborated Wilson's story. But tim says that there are others that didn't (psst ... they were discredited because it didn't match the physical evidence), so let's just throw all of it out. Really? So all it takes in your mind is someone to counter a witness story and you want to throw it all out. Instead of maybe digging into things to try and figure out what is credible and what isn't ... like maybe what the grand jury did.

Youre very good at repeating what the prosecutor said. Can you describe what the physical evidence was that matched some testimony and not others?

Multiple people just f'ing did ... that Brown was moving towards Wilson

 

[kentric]

Where did I say I wanted to kill anyone, Einstein?


I would much rather live and peace and not have to worry about dirtbags trying to riot in the streets. But, I am glad you have your priorities straight. Beer and a little snatch.

And for you to suggest that looters in a riot are unarmed is comical and so pathetically naive. Apparently, windows break themselves, buildings spontaneously combust and guns get fired by Alabama leprechauns that migrated up into Ferguson to get in on the action.

I guess you missed the hours of coverage last night...where rocks and baseball bats were used to break windows and others poured lighter fluid on buildings and cars. And I guess you didn't hear about how the members of the media embedded with the crowd warned the officers that there were many individuals armed with guns.

Just boy scouts and choir boys looking to roast marshmallows while they wait for a Sunday Service....

I guess it's easy to take things out of perspective to fit your agenda. Maybe you should go back a few pages and reread your comments. As far as looters go, in no way do I consider them choir boys. Most of your posts reek of exaggeration. I can't stop you from seeing the situation through colored lenses.

Racist.

 

[timschochet]

BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

Tim think about it philosophically -- why should it necesarily make sense? Nonsensical things -- mostly mundane, a few profound -- happend with frequency in daily life. Why should the Michael Brown shooting be especially exempt from nonsensicality (if I may coin a word)?

This is all true, but it also makes no sense within the pattern of specific events which occurred in this instance. Furthermore, we already know that whenever a police officer is involved in a questionable shooting, the explanation given by the officer is always that the victim was life threatening "reaching for his gun" etc. in this instance Wilson testified that Brown, while charging was reaching into his waistband, presumably for a gun. But if Brown had a gun, why didn't he produce it at the car? And if Brown had a gun, why is he charging? Does any of this make sense to you? It only makes sense to me within the context of Wilson saying whatever he can to justify a quick shooting that might not have been warranted.

 

[Doug B]

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

Riffing off that point, here's me speculating:

A fullblown charge is completely unnecessary to establish a fight-or-flight scenario here. Let's rewind the speculation tape back to where Brown first wheeled around. Call it 35-40 feet from Wilson to average out the varying testimonies as to distance.

At that fleeting moment, Brown would not have to charge to communicate menace and ill intent. Even a slow-walk approach with threatening facial/body language would maintain and build up the flight-or-flight reptilian-brain instincts in Wilson. Think of Brown perhaps thinking "Are you really going to shoot me, MF-er?!?" as he makes a deliberate, threatening approach towards Wilson. Maybe Brown -- in his own fight-or-flight state after the gun discharge in the car -- thought to himself that Wilson's gun was empty, Or that Wilson wouldn't dare fire rounds in front of witnesses in daylight,

Again, I'm totally speculating here. But there are ways to think about the situation that can plausibly explain what went down. Can't prove it, of course. But maybe the God's-eye-view scenario was only a little nonsensical, and not ridiculously far-fetched.

 

[timschochet]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

LOL. Just when I think he couldn't get any better.

Hey, we have witnesses that corroborated Wilson's story. But tim says that there are others that didn't (psst ... they were discredited because it didn't match the physical evidence), so let's just throw all of it out. Really? So all it takes in your mind is someone to counter a witness story and you want to throw it all out. Instead of maybe digging into things to try and figure out what is credible and what isn't ... like maybe what the grand jury did.

Youre very good at repeating what the prosecutor said. Can you describe what the physical evidence was that matched some testimony and not others?

Multiple people just f'ing did ... that Brown was moving towards Wilson

im talking about charging Wilson. That's the key.

 

[timschochet]

Very simple question for all you who disagree with me: if Brown did not charge Wilson, was this a justified killing? Yes or no? If your answer is yes, please explain why.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

An alternative hypothesis.

The struggle took place in the car, for whatever reason or on whatever provocation, and regardless of who initiated it. It took place. During the struggle Wilson's gun discharged at least once, and I understand more likely twice. At least one of these shots grazed Brown's thumb and came with some searing hot gunshot residue going into his flesh. Now this likely: hurt, was startling, caused both parties an adrenaline rush triggering fight or flight responses beginning to obviate them analyzing their next moves 100% logically. (Now Wilson's training should have helped with this some, but it is difficult in training to really simulate situations to the point of producing rushes of adrenaline). We need also understand that discharge of a weapon in a car would be incredibly loud, would leave a painful ringing in the ears, and with the accompanying discharge of smoke would be very disorienting.

At any rate, Brown, being wounded and startled, would naturally, reflexively, begin retreating. It would be less natural for Wilson to immediately pursue, this would have to be a volitional action after some fractions of a second or more consideration.

When Wilson exits the car Brown has had whatever time to compose himself that it would take to travel whatever distance he got. I think we all agree this is not a long time, seconds at the most. As for Wilson he is now confronted with a split attention task. Outside the car is not just Brown, but Brown's cohort (His name temporarily escapes this confused old man's mind). It seems possible, likely even given common experience that Brown and the cohort were shouting back and forth, I mean Brown had just been shot, that is definitely information inviting communication, as is the fact that the cohort would naturally be worried having heard two shots. Officer Wilson may have been directing his attention, and his gun, back and forth between the two as yet less than fully assessed risks. During this process Brown may have seen an opportunity to advance on Wilson as Wilson's gun and attention swung to the cohort. He may have been encouraged to do so by his cohort, egged on as it were.

What we know from common experience is that criminals avoid apprehension. We also know that in fight or flight response scenarios one can turn instantly from the one response to the other. Experience tells us that young men misapprehend their abilities and competencies. Experience, no history, also shows that folks will charge at and fight armed Officers.

You are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation involving rage, injury, pain, fear, and desire to escape. The fat man may have decided his best escape is not to run, but to fight. Fat people understand that their running ability is limited after short distances. They are built for charging, not for marathons. For all we know he may have thought the Officer was stunned from his blows and shot. The officer may have been disoriented and staggering. the Officer may have presented an inviting target over the option of running.

I am not advocating this position. I am advocating that to dismiss it out of hand may be precipitous and may involve not assessing all the factors. You want to apply logic, but you ignore the human condition, and you forget to paint an accurate scenario, one involving Brown's friend in the picture as well. The cohort, the criminal confederate who is an independent actor, who likely was not a silent statue during the encounter, and even had he been he would have still created some split attention tsk for the officer potentially presenting Brown an opportunity for charging Wilson.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Wow. Here's what you said after the prosecutor spoke the other night:

Yep. It was this charge that always made me doubt Wilson's story. I never believed it likely that any unarmed person, even a thug, would charge a police officer firing bullets at him. But I guess it actually did happen. Brown must have been one crazy mother####er.

But here we are, a mere two days later with no additional evidence having been presented, and you're waffling again.

Thank you. Thank you.

I knew he was watching the prosecutor speak because he was "live posting". The prosecutor laid out the evidence that was presented and it was consistent with Brown turning back and moving toward/charging Wilson. He specifically talked about the blood splatter, time and distance. Post Leader agrees it actually happened, like any other reasonable person would after listening, but something happens in his head to make him change his mind.

Is it to generate more discussion? To drive other posters crazy? To assure he doesn't fall to 2nd in post count? Why? What could have happened to make him leave reality and go with his "hunch".

 

[timschochet]

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

Riffing off that point, here's me speculating:

A fullblown charge is completely unnecessary to establish a fight-or-flight scenario here. Let's rewind the speculation tape back to where Brown first wheeled around. Call it 35-40 feet from Wilson to average out the varying testimonies as to distance.

At that fleeting moment, Brown would not have to charge to communicate menace and ill intent. Even a slow-walk approach with threatening facial/body language would maintain and build up the flight-or-flight reptilian-brain instincts in Wilson. Think of Brown perhaps thinking "Are you really going to shoot me, MF-er?!?" as he makes a deliberate, threatening approach towards Wilson. Maybe Brown -- in his own fight-or-flight state after the gun discharge in the car -- thought to himself that Wilson's gun was empty, Or that Wilson wouldn't dare fire rounds in front of witnesses in daylight,

Again, I'm totally speculating here. But there are ways to think about the situation that can plausibly explain what went down. Can't prove it, of course. But maybe the God's-eye-view scenario was only a little nonsensical, and not ridiculously far-fetched.

Again, I can buy into that. However, under your scenario, Wilson is probably guilty of wrongfully killing Brown.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

I believe this is a rough sketch of what happened, but that there was a little more going on at the "Brown turns around" step. That was a hair-trigger moment when a sudden, typically-innocuous movement leads to shots fired.

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

however they had witnesses saying that Wilson was firing at Brown as Brown was running away...then brown stopped and turned and was shot at again as he moved forward

 

[avoiding injuries]

Very simple question for all you who disagree with me: if Brown did not charge Wilson, was this a justified killing? Yes or no? If your answer is yes, please explain why.

Because officer Wilson claims brown put his hand in his waist band when he was moving toward him and an eyewitness validated it while forensic evidence supported its possibility.

 

[Limp Ditka]

I don't understand why people are debating what happened on August 9th or have their own "hunch".

Either Wilson's story was completely accurate, or he is extremely lucky that every detail he immediately gave and remained consistent about was either proved or deemed possible according to the autopsy and forensics. The testimony and statements that were disproved by the autopsy (both of them) and forensics are lies.

Questioning the distance? There's blood. Questioning him turning back? blood splatter proves he was further and turned around. Don't believe he was charging? Again, the blood splatter and entry wounds add up. Can't accept the struggle in the car? You're just ignoring all the evidence.

What is there to gain by holding onto some hope that things happened differently than what's been proved? Why are some still so adamant that Wilson did something wrong? He testified for 4 hours during the grand jury hearings and did an interview with no questions off limits. If you were telling the truth and thought you were innocent, what else would you do?

Because people made up their minds months ago and now won't change them no matter how much evidence rolls in. The same thing happens all the time in lots of other threads.

But tim compensates for them by changing his mind every 12 minutes, so it all evens out.

 

[timschochet]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

An alternative hypothesis.

The struggle took place in the car, for whatever reason or on whatever provocation, and regardless of who initiated it. It took place. During the struggle Wilson's gun discharged at least once, and I understand more likely twice. At least one of these shots grazed Brown's thumb and came with some searing hot gunshot residue going into his flesh. Now this likely hurt, was startling, caused both parties an adrenaline rush triggering fight or flight responses which beginning to obviate them analyzing their next moves 100% logically. (Now Wilson's training should have helped with this some, but it is difficult in training to really simulate situations to the point of producing rushes of adrenaline). we need also understand that discharge of a weapon in a car would be incredibly loud, would leave a painful ringing in the ears, and with the accompanying discharge of smoke would be disorienting.

At any rate, brown, being wounded and startled, would naturally, reflexively, begin retreating. It would be less natural for Wilson to immediately pursue, this would have to be a volitional action after some fractions of a second or more consideration.

When Wilson exits the car brown has had whatever time to compose himself that it would take to travel whatever distance he got. I think we all agree this is not a long time, seconds at the most. As for Wilson he is now confronted with a split attention task. Outside the car is not just Brown, but brown's cohort. It seems possible, likely even given common experience that Brown and the cohort were shouting back and forth, I mean brown had just been shot. Officer Wilson may have been directing his attention, and his gun, back and forth between the two as yet less than fully assessed risks. During this process Brown may have seen an opportunity to advance on Wilson. he may have been encouraged to do so by his cohort, egged on as it were.

What we know from common experience is that criminals avoid apprehension. We also know that in fight or flight response scenarios one can turn instantly from the one response to the other. Experience tells us that young men misapprehend their abilities and competencies. Experience, no history also shows that folks will charge at and fight armed Officers.

You are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation involving rage, injury, pain, fear, and desire to escape. The fat man may have decided his best escape is not to run, but to fight. Fat people understand that their running ability is limited after short distances. they are built for charging, not for marathons. For all we know he may have thought the Officer was stunned from his blows and shot. The officer may have been disoriented and staggering.

I am not advocating this position. I am advocating that to dismiss it out of hand may be precipitous and may involve not assessing all the factors. You want to apply logic, but you ignore the human condition, and you forget to paint an accurate scenario, one involving Brown's friend in the picture as well. A person who is an independent actor, who likely was not a silent statue during the encounter, and even had he been he would have still created some split attention tsk for the officer potentially presenting Brown an opportunity for charging Wilson.

this is about the best argument I've heard for a charge...but I still don't buy it. Not saying it's impossible, just that among the many possibilities it's the least plausible IMO.