Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (1 Viewer)

[Yankee23Fan]

Didn't the cop have bruises on his face and neck from the beating Brown was giving him? The cop seemed to have acted the way he should have and Brown pretty much sealed his own fate by his actions.

I've sustained far greater injury having sex with my wife. Of course she is a vigorous minx.

You are not allowed to hit a cop. I don't know where in this topic people seem to think that there is an equality of actions between a civilian and a police officer. There is not.

 

[mcintyre1]

I don't need to watch the TV. I've spent my last two whole evenings reading that evidence. Yes, he wasn't in the room, but I've read accounts from other state level prosecutors indicating that he wouldn't need to be. He still gets to frame the case, what is presented, who is interviewed, and that the GJ begins to pick up on cues from the prosecuting team as to whether they're looking for an indictment or not. There are people inside of this system that criticize it as less than optimal if not biased. Excuse me if I believe them over you.

Excuse me if I believe the GJ and the evidence over your fiction. I use common sense. You use emotion.

I use evidence.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Woke up this morning here in Minneapolis without having watched then news last night to see that there were 1,000+ protesters here locally, and that two cars/vans essentially drove through the crowds.

#1 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283893441.html#sfcri

#2 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283919501.html#sfcri

WTF?! I'm absolutely dumbfounded how people are clinging to this as some massive injustice and willing to rally because of this ruling, when the evidence would reasonably lead one down the path towards this being a justifiable shooting of an 18 year old whom had just committed a "hey I'm taking #### from your store so what are you going to do about it" theft.

The wheels have officially come off of this country. Find a better cause to rally around and do dumb #### like blocking traffic. I hope one of these idiots' family members needs medical care and can't get it because they're blocking streets in support of a criminal whom was killed.

Why make any arrests of the people blocking streets and vandalizing the guy's vehicle? Just arrest the law abiding citizen trying to get home. Fantastic.

Because attempted homicide is illegal unless someone's threatening you?

Had a lot of sympathy for the guy in the "zombie" situation and the guy in NY who was surrounded and stopped by bikers in New York, but that's not what happened here. The dude just blasted through under no duress at all.

 

[Henry Ford]

Didn't the cop have bruises on his face and neck from the beating Brown was giving him? The cop seemed to have acted the way he should have and Brown pretty much sealed his own fate by his actions.

I've sustained far greater injury having sex with my wife. Of course she is a vigorous minx.

You are not allowed to hit a cop. I don't know where in this topic people seem to think that there is an equality of actions between a civilian and a police officer. There is not.

By the same token, there's a heightened responsibility that comes with being an officer. A civilian should probably be sitting at home sipping brandy after the events. A police officer should be getting a rubber-glove-level investigation.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Does it bother any of you that you are blindly accepting Wilson's claim that Brown ran 30 feet from the police car, then turned and charged and Wilson fired the headshot when Brown was 10 feet from him, which is directly contradicted by the fact that Brown's body was found lying 153 feet from the police car?

 

[Henry Ford]

Does it bother any of you that you are blindly accepting Wilson's claim that Brown ran 30 feet from the police car, then turned and charged and Wilson fired the headshot when Brown was 10 feet from him, which is directly contradicted by the fact that Brown's body was found lying 153 feet from the police car?

That sounds like new math.

 

[jonessed]

McIntyre making excellent points here...especially for a Nebraska fan.

Quoting tim, addressing McIntyre:

The grand jury proceedings were political cover for a prosecutor that would have, ordinarily, simply dismissed the case altogether because he was certain the state could not convict at trial. Given that, I can't really fault the proceedings -- while the outcome may be statistically unusual as far as grand juries go, it's not right to compare what happened here with the usual grand jury proceeding. What happened here should instead be compared to all the cases that the prosecutor's office summarily dismiss for lack of evidence or insufficent evidence to convict.

He's the only guy in this entire thread that has promoted rioting and looting as an acceptable response to what happened here.

 

[mcintyre1]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

An alternative hypothesis.

The struggle took place in the car, for whatever reason or on whatever provocation, and regardless of who initiated it. It took place. During the struggle Wilson's gun discharged at least once, and I understand more likely twice. At least one of these shots grazed Brown's thumb and came with some searing hot gunshot residue going into his flesh. Now this likely: hurt, was startling, caused both parties an adrenaline rush triggering fight or flight responses beginning to obviate them analyzing their next moves 100% logically. (Now Wilson's training should have helped with this some, but it is difficult in training to really simulate situations to the point of producing rushes of adrenaline). We need also understand that discharge of a weapon in a car would be incredibly loud, would leave a painful ringing in the ears, and with the accompanying discharge of smoke would be very disorienting.

At any rate, Brown, being wounded and startled, would naturally, reflexively, begin retreating. It would be less natural for Wilson to immediately pursue, this would have to be a volitional action after some fractions of a second or more consideration.

When Wilson exits the car Brown has had whatever time to compose himself that it would take to travel whatever distance he got. I think we all agree this is not a long time, seconds at the most. As for Wilson he is now confronted with a split attention task. Outside the car is not just Brown, but Brown's cohort (His name temporarily escapes this confused old man's mind). It seems possible, likely even given common experience that Brown and the cohort were shouting back and forth, I mean Brown had just been shot, that is definitely information inviting communication, as is the fact that the cohort would naturally be worried having heard two shots. Officer Wilson may have been directing his attention, and his gun, back and forth between the two as yet less than fully assessed risks. During this process Brown may have seen an opportunity to advance on Wilson as Wilson's gun and attention swung to the cohort. He may have been encouraged to do so by his cohort, egged on as it were.

What we know from common experience is that criminals avoid apprehension. We also know that in fight or flight response scenarios one can turn instantly from the one response to the other. Experience tells us that young men misapprehend their abilities and competencies. Experience, no history, also shows that folks will charge at and fight armed Officers.

You are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation involving rage, injury, pain, fear, and desire to escape. The fat man may have decided his best escape is not to run, but to fight. Fat people understand that their running ability is limited after short distances. They are built for charging, not for marathons. For all we know he may have thought the Officer was stunned from his blows and shot. The officer may have been disoriented and staggering. the Officer may have presented an inviting target over the option of running.

I am not advocating this position. I am advocating that to dismiss it out of hand may be precipitous and may involve not assessing all the factors. You want to apply logic, but you ignore the human condition, and you forget to paint an accurate scenario, one involving Brown's friend in the picture as well. The cohort, the criminal confederate who is an independent actor, who likely was not a silent statue during the encounter, and even had he been he would have still created some split attention tsk for the officer potentially presenting Brown an opportunity for charging Wilson.

That's certainly a plausible scenario, but I do know that Wilson said explicitly of Brown's friend "After [him running away], I never saw him again" and he makes no mention of Brown talking to anyone, just that he made an "aggressive" noise or grunt.

 

[mcintyre1]

McIntyre making excellent points here...especially for a Nebraska fan.

Quoting tim, addressing McIntyre:

The grand jury proceedings were political cover for a prosecutor that would have, ordinarily, simply dismissed the case altogether because he was certain the state could not convict at trial. Given that, I can't really fault the proceedings -- while the outcome may be statistically unusual as far as grand juries go, it's not right to compare what happened here with the usual grand jury proceeding. What happened here should instead be compared to all the cases that the prosecutor's office summarily dismiss for lack of evidence or insufficent evidence to convict.

He's the only guy in this entire thread that has promoted rioting and looting as an acceptable response to what happened here.

I never said it was acceptable. I said I wouldn't disparage the rioters for doing it, that it was an inevitable outcome of the situation that community exists in, and that rioting could lead to positive societal changes upon reflection. I still stand by all of that. But thanks for calling me a scumbag, lets me know I'm ruffling the right feathers.

 

[Mister Martie]

Woke up this morning here in Minneapolis without having watched then news last night to see that there were 1,000+ protesters here locally, and that two cars/vans essentially drove through the crowds.

#1 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283893441.html#sfcri

#2 - http://www.startribune.com/video/283919501.html#sfcri

WTF?! I'm absolutely dumbfounded how people are clinging to this as some massive injustice and willing to rally because of this ruling, when the evidence would reasonably lead one down the path towards this being a justifiable shooting of an 18 year old whom had just committed a "hey I'm taking #### from your store so what are you going to do about it" theft.

The wheels have officially come off of this country. Find a better cause to rally around and do dumb #### like blocking traffic. I hope one of these idiots' family members needs medical care and can't get it because they're blocking streets in support of a criminal whom was killed.

Why make any arrests of the people blocking streets and vandalizing the guy's vehicle? Just arrest the law abiding citizen trying to get home. Fantastic.

Has to be shtick at this point.

 

[SIDA!]

There's been about a dozen posts this morning all asking the same thing: why, given the evidence, do some people still believe that Michael Brown was wrongfully killed? You guys just can't understand it. Ivan K offered a patronizing answer: because they've made their minds up already. Which implies that the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Wilson's story.

Except it isn't. From the beginning there were 3 key questions related to this event: what exactly happened at the car? How far away was Brown when Wilson fired at him outside of the car? Did Brown actually charge at Wilson? (This last question being the most important of all). We still don't know the answers to any of these questions. Most of you have simply accepted Wilson's story as to what happened. I don't, particularly with regard to the last question, because I don't think it's plausible, and there's no evidence other than his statement. So no, sorry Ivan, it's not because I've already made my mind up (quite the contrary in my case) but because neither you nor anyone else have provided evidence or reason to change it in this instance. I believe that Michael Brown was wrongfully killed because he was at least 35 feet away from Wilson and was therefore not a threat to Wilson, even if he had been earlier. If Brown had meant to kill Wilson, I don't think he would have walked away from him in the first place. That's what my common sense tells me, and nothing has been presented to contradict it so far.

ROFLMAO. The other night, when the DA presented the FACTS and the findings of the GJ you were more than satisfied. It's funny how you change your tune repeatedly on issues on a whim.

He types before he thinks...repeatedly.

He types without reading previous posts...repeatedly.

He types about press conferences without listening to complete press conferences...repeatedly.

Rinse and Repeat Timmy.

 

[Jim11]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Anybody know how many times Tim has changed his theory on what happened? Over/under is 101.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Which leads to the problem: although there has been no polling as of yet, it seems pretty clear over the last few days that a majority of blacks, probably a strong majority, believe this result (no indictment) was a gross injustice. In fact, I am betting that this will be the biggest divide between blacks and whites since the OJ trial, and basically for the same reason: whites trust the police. Blacks don't. Yes these are generalities, but they are generally true.

What are we to do about this?

The problem is even bigger than that, and totally intractable in our lifetimes:

There should be no groups of Americans that view themselves at out on an island, alone, cut off from American society at large. I asked this several pages back, and ask again: Is disposession an effect that the world has on a person, or is disposession an effect that the psyche has on a person? Is disposession internal or external -- or both?

It's both, and it snowballs.

Yup.

 

[mcintyre1]

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

Riffing off that point, here's me speculating:

A fullblown charge is completely unnecessary to establish a fight-or-flight scenario here. Let's rewind the speculation tape back to where Brown first wheeled around. Call it 35-40 feet from Wilson to average out the varying testimonies as to distance.

At that fleeting moment, Brown would not have to charge to communicate menace and ill intent. Even a slow-walk approach with threatening facial/body language would maintain and build up the flight-or-flight reptilian-brain instincts in Wilson. Think of Brown perhaps thinking "Are you really going to shoot me, MF-er?!?" as he makes a deliberate, threatening approach towards Wilson. Maybe Brown -- in his own fight-or-flight state after the gun discharge in the car -- thought to himself that Wilson's gun was empty, Or that Wilson wouldn't dare fire rounds in front of witnesses in daylight,

Again, I'm totally speculating here. But there are ways to think about the situation that can plausibly explain what went down. Can't prove it, of course. But maybe the God's-eye-view scenario was only a little nonsensical, and not ridiculously far-fetched.

Another plausible scenario, and yet another reason that this should have gone to trial. We needed the full public process on this one.

 

[lod01]

I don't need to watch the TV. I've spent my last two whole evenings reading that evidence. Yes, he wasn't in the room, but I've read accounts from other state level prosecutors indicating that he wouldn't need to be. He still gets to frame the case, what is presented, who is interviewed, and that the GJ begins to pick up on cues from the prosecuting team as to whether they're looking for an indictment or not. There are people inside of this system that criticize it as less than optimal if not biased. Excuse me if I believe them over you.

Excuse me if I believe the GJ and the evidence over your fiction. I use common sense. You use emotion.

I use evidence.

....and you got nothing.That's why your side lost. You got no forensic evidence, you got no credible eyewitness accounts, you got nothin'.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'll put the over/under at one for the amount of people who changed their minds because of this thread.

Sure, but he did it ten times.

just 10?

 

[squistion]

4 and a half minutes of silence in NY for Michael Brown? Are you ####### kidding me? Let me get this straight, if I want to be an immortalized hero in America all I have to do is rob a convenience sore, bully an old man, walk in the middle of the street, talk back to a cop, punch him, try to grab his gun, and then disobey his commands when he draws his gun and continue to walk towards him?And people have the nerve to mention this punk in the same sentence as Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks. What a joke.

Um, Michael Brown is not being immortalized as a hero in America. Maybe in a parallel universe, but not in this one.

LOL. Dude, a crowd of about 2,000 people just stopped in front of the United Nations and observed a moment of silence "in his memory" for 4 and a half minutes!! That might be the longest moment of silence in history, at least since Borat. And do you not see all the people wearing Michael Brown shirts and hats? People are going to be naming their children after this piece of ####.

He is considered a victim. That is what the silence was for. He is not being recognized by anyone as a hero from what I have seen.

Michael Brown a victim???1. He robbed a convenience store, on camera, for a handful of $1 cigarillos.

2. He assaulted the owner, an old man literally half his size.

3. Instead of just leaving, he turns back into the store (and the camera) to intimidate the guy some more (I assume in the hopes he won't call the cops)

4. While holding stolen property in one hand, with drugs in his pocket, he brazenly walks in the middle of the road instead of the sidewalk.

5. When a cop tells him to get out of the street he doesn't (despite 4).

6. He taunts the cop, then attacks him inside his car and tries to grab his gun.

7. When the cop tells him to freeze, he charges him.

And Mike Brown was a victim? Please tell me, in what crazy, fukced up universe is a belligerent assshat like this considered a victim?

Obviously I don't buy your version of events. This was an unarmed teenager shot 30-40 feet away according to witnesses. That qualifies as a victim to me. And the robbery is irrelevant to his shooting since it didn't appear that Wilson knew about it.

You really need to catch up with the story if you want to make any sense in your posts. The GJ testimony states that Wilson did in fact know aobut the robbery.

This is based only on Wilson's testimony before the grand jury. Nothing was mentioned on this before he appeared in front of the grand jury. Very convenient and self-serving testimony for Wilson that he remembered hearing the police reports, which can't be disputed since it would impossible to prove that he didn't or that he actually made the connection with two black guys jaywalking. .

 

[avoiding injuries]

Does it bother any of you that you are blindly accepting Wilson's claim that Brown ran 30 feet from the police car, then turned and charged and Wilson fired the headshot when Brown was 10 feet from him, which is directly contradicted by the fact that Brown's body was found lying 153 feet from the police car?

That sounds like new math.

The prosecutor explained this, in detail, Monday night. There is no contradiction to the story. Why would it bother anyone?

 

[jonessed]

McIntyre making excellent points here...especially for a Nebraska fan.

Quoting tim, addressing McIntyre:

The grand jury proceedings were political cover for a prosecutor that would have, ordinarily, simply dismissed the case altogether because he was certain the state could not convict at trial. Given that, I can't really fault the proceedings -- while the outcome may be statistically unusual as far as grand juries go, it's not right to compare what happened here with the usual grand jury proceeding. What happened here should instead be compared to all the cases that the prosecutor's office summarily dismiss for lack of evidence or insufficent evidence to convict.

He's the only guy in this entire thread that has promoted rioting and looting as an acceptable response to what happened here.

I never said it was acceptable. I said I wouldn't disparage the rioters for doing it, that it was an inevitable outcome of the situation that community exists in, and that rioting could lead to positive societal changes upon reflection. I still stand by all of that. But thanks for calling me a scumbag, lets me know I'm ruffling the right feathers.

Condoning violence of this nature isn't acceptable and needs to be called out. It's just a friendly reminder to everybody what your position is.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

Anybody know how many times Tim has changed his theory on what happened? Over/under is 101.

I only counted 2. He changed his position to agree with what the prosecutor said, and then back to his original position. He's used many different reasons to justify why he has those positions, but he's not going back and forth.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a conservative, but I am definitely on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think there are a ton of police brutality issues where officers are not punished for their wrongful actions. I think there are many cops who lie and massage reports to fit the narrative they need to get off. I think the officers in the Kelly Thomas murder, not killing, should be in prison.

Here is my beef with Officer Wilson and where I think much more attention should be focused. His initial contact with Brown is troubling. I could easily envision a scenario where he approached Brown in the middle of the street and said something is a rather abrasive or authoritarian manner. I have had numerous instances where officers approached me and their initial contact/tone was authoritative/quasi threatening. The problem with many police officers is that they treat every person they deal with like they are a a dirtbag. It is highly infuriating.

Putting my little feud with Sprouts aside...I agree with some of the sentiments he expressed with the tone/manner in which they have behaved towards him.

Now, after that initial contact, there really isn't anything I can really blame/fault the officer for doing. But, had Wilson just drove on by and dealt with more pressing matters than trying to scold Brown for walking in the street or playing the authoritarian card...then I think the situation probably would have been different.

until he hears about the robbery at the store and description and realizes he just saw that guy and goes back to get him ...seems like something was going to go down one way or another...Brown seemed to think because he`s so big he can do as he pleased....and it cost him his life....i still have an issue with shooting an unarmed person from that distance but it seems the law allows cops to shoot unarmed people if they are deemed a risk to injure or kill someone

When I first typed that post, I was wondering if I should elaborate on the bolded part a little more. There very well may have been a conflict of some kind no matter what. But my understanding of the events is that he stopped Brown in the middle of the street...words of some kind were exchanged during an unknown duration of time and then Wilson drove off before backing up and re-engaging Brown.

It is not inconceivable to think that perhaps Wilson goes down the street without stopping Brown in the middle of the street and it doesn't register that that was the suspect in the store theft. Or maybe he turns the corner and then it clicks and he circles back. At that point he engages Brown in some fashion and maybe Brown and Johnson decide to flee on foot. I dunno. Purely speculation obviously.

One other note: People keep harping on Brown being unarmed. Correct me if I am wrong, but how in the world is Wilson supposed to know with absolute certainty that Brown is unarmed at the time he shoots him. I have never really understood this line of thinking that just because he is unarmed that (a) and officer is supposed to know this and (b) the suspect is incapable of harming or killing an officer even if he is unarmed.

I don't think he had to know or definitely determine that Brown was unarmed.

The claim by Wilson that Brown had his hand in his waistband as if to indicate he was packing does sound a little sketchy: on the one hand it could be a conveniently made up element to validate or vindicate why he felt he was endangered. OTOH given some of Brown's reckless behavior and the other claims by Wilson, especially that Brown had challenged him on his courage, it's possible that Brown could have been stupidly trying to scare the police officer into thinking he had a gun. People do abundantly stupid things sometimes and when they do them with cops this can be the result.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

O'Donnell called himself a "practical European socialist" in a 2005 interview.progressive. I am not a liberal who is so afraid of the word that I had to change my name to 'progressive'. Liberals amuse me. I am a socialist. I lie to the extreme left, the extreme left of you mere liberals."



It's nice when you don't even know the timeline of "progressivism" and "liberalism." Shall I write him?

I listened to LOD a good bit last night and it had to be some of the most irresponsible media behavior I have ever seen.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a conservative, but I am definitely on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think there are a ton of police brutality issues where officers are not punished for their wrongful actions. I think there are many cops who lie and massage reports to fit the narrative they need to get off. I think the officers in the Kelly Thomas murder, not killing, should be in prison.

Here is my beef with Officer Wilson and where I think much more attention should be focused. His initial contact with Brown is troubling. I could easily envision a scenario where he approached Brown in the middle of the street and said something is a rather abrasive or authoritarian manner. I have had numerous instances where officers approached me and their initial contact/tone was authoritative/quasi threatening. The problem with many police officers is that they treat every person they deal with like they are a a dirtbag. It is highly infuriating.

Putting my little feud with Sprouts aside...I agree with some of the sentiments he expressed with the tone/manner in which they have behaved towards him.

Now, after that initial contact, there really isn't anything I can really blame/fault the officer for doing. But, had Wilson just drove on by and dealt with more pressing matters than trying to scold Brown for walking in the street or playing the authoritarian card...then I think the situation probably would have been different.

until he hears about the robbery at the store and description and realizes he just saw that guy and goes back to get him ...seems like something was going to go down one way or another...Brown seemed to think because he`s so big he can do as he pleased....and it cost him his life....i still have an issue with shooting an unarmed person from that distance but it seems the law allows cops to shoot unarmed people if they are deemed a risk to injure or kill someone

When I first typed that post, I was wondering if I should elaborate on the bolded part a little more. There very well may have been a conflict of some kind no matter what. But my understanding of the events is that he stopped Brown in the middle of the street...words of some kind were exchanged during an unknown duration of time and then Wilson drove off before backing up and re-engaging Brown.

It is not inconceivable to think that perhaps Wilson goes down the street without stopping Brown in the middle of the street and it doesn't register that that was the suspect in the store theft. Or maybe he turns the corner and then it clicks and he circles back. At that point he engages Brown in some fashion and maybe Brown and Johnson decide to flee on foot. I dunno. Purely speculation obviously.

One other note: People keep harping on Brown being unarmed. Correct me if I am wrong, but how in the world is Wilson supposed to know with absolute certainty that Brown is unarmed at the time he shoots him. I have never really understood this line of thinking that just because he is unarmed that (a) and officer is supposed to know this and (b) the suspect is incapable of harming or killing an officer even if he is unarmed.

I agree that he couldn't have known for sure. However, he claims both that Brown was beating him so hard that he feared for his life, and that Brown tried to take the officer's gun. Why would he bother beating him with his fists and stealing the officer's gun if he had immediate access to a knife or, worse, a gun?

It's a lot to ask someone to do this mental calculation is such a short period of time in such difficult circumstances.

 

[Courtjester]

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

Riffing off that point, here's me speculating:

A fullblown charge is completely unnecessary to establish a fight-or-flight scenario here. Let's rewind the speculation tape back to where Brown first wheeled around. Call it 35-40 feet from Wilson to average out the varying testimonies as to distance.

At that fleeting moment, Brown would not have to charge to communicate menace and ill intent. Even a slow-walk approach with threatening facial/body language would maintain and build up the flight-or-flight reptilian-brain instincts in Wilson. Think of Brown perhaps thinking "Are you really going to shoot me, MF-er?!?" as he makes a deliberate, threatening approach towards Wilson. Maybe Brown -- in his own fight-or-flight state after the gun discharge in the car -- thought to himself that Wilson's gun was empty, Or that Wilson wouldn't dare fire rounds in front of witnesses in daylight,

Again, I'm totally speculating here. But there are ways to think about the situation that can plausibly explain what went down. Can't prove it, of course. But maybe the God's-eye-view scenario was only a little nonsensical, and not ridiculously far-fetched.

Another plausible scenario, and yet another reason that this should have gone to trial. We needed the full public process on this one.

MC you keep saying this over and over about a trial--so what would you have had him charge?

The way I see it he had 3 choices in this case:

1) Review the evidence and come to the conclusion he can't bring anything and announce no charges--which would have elicited howls and screams that he isn't being transparent and hiding something.

2) Bring some lesser charges which would have elicited howls and screams that he is not being charged with murder. Further these charges (at least with the evidence as presented in the transcripts) would have had zero chance of sticking.

3) Go the route he did and show the grand jury and the world every scintilla of evidence to allow them to make a decision.

 

[lod01]

O'Donnell called himself a "practical European socialist" in a 2005 interview.progressive. I am not a liberal who is so afraid of the word that I had to change my name to 'progressive'. Liberals amuse me. I am a socialist. I lie to the extreme left, the extreme left of you mere liberals."



It's nice when you don't even know the timeline of "progressivism" and "liberalism." Shall I write him?

I listened to LOD a good bit last night and it had to be some of the most irresponsible media behavior I have ever seen.

are you saying you want a piece of me?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a conservative, but I am definitely on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think there are a ton of police brutality issues where officers are not punished for their wrongful actions. I think there are many cops who lie and massage reports to fit the narrative they need to get off. I think the officers in the Kelly Thomas murder, not killing, should be in prison.

Here is my beef with Officer Wilson and where I think much more attention should be focused. His initial contact with Brown is troubling. I could easily envision a scenario where he approached Brown in the middle of the street and said something is a rather abrasive or authoritarian manner. I have had numerous instances where officers approached me and their initial contact/tone was authoritative/quasi threatening. The problem with many police officers is that they treat every person they deal with like they are a a dirtbag. It is highly infuriating.

Putting my little feud with Sprouts aside...I agree with some of the sentiments he expressed with the tone/manner in which they have behaved towards him.

Now, after that initial contact, there really isn't anything I can really blame/fault the officer for doing. But, had Wilson just drove on by and dealt with more pressing matters than trying to scold Brown for walking in the street or playing the authoritarian card...then I think the situation probably would have been different.

I'm fully familiar with police corruption, and "bad cops". It's real here. But I have just always had a hard time understanding why a cop with no such background would just haul off and shoot someone 10 yards away unless he really thought it was necessary.

I want to make sure I am following you. Are you referring to what compelled Wilson to shoot Brown from a distance of 10 yards?

Yes I am talking about Wilson's alleged motive from those who wish to see him prosecuted. What's the charge? Murder, manslaughter or negligence homicide? And what's the motive if its murder? Racial animus? Based on what?

 

[SIDA!]

A person can cover 35 ft in what? 2 seconds? 3 maybe? That's not like he was a football field away and the cop hit him with a sniper rifle.

yes. We've been over this. If Brown was charging. What makes you think he was, beyond that Wilson said so after the fact?

African American witness testimony corroborating Wilsons story of him charging.

There were several witnesses who contradicted each other on this point. I have not read their testimonies so I have no idea which ones are more credible than others. Perhaps if I do I will change my mind. But I think that when faced with contradictory testimony of this type, it's a reasonable conclusion to disregard all of it. I certainly don't think it's wise to pick and choose.

LOL. Just when I think he couldn't get any better.

Hey, we have witnesses that corroborated Wilson's story. But tim says that there are others that didn't (psst ... they were discredited because it didn't match the physical evidence), so let's just throw all of it out. Really? So all it takes in your mind is someone to counter a witness story and you want to throw it all out. Instead of maybe digging into things to try and figure out what is credible and what isn't ... like maybe what the grand jury did.

Youre very good at repeating what the prosecutor said. Can you describe what the physical evidence was that matched some testimony and not others?

Um blood on Wilson and his vehicle...you know that magic blood I spoke about earlier in this thread where I sarcastically said hurricane winds must have been responsible and then you said I was being ridiculous. Didn't witnesses say Brown was running away. So the magic bullet acts like a boomerang...goes past Brown and enters him in the chest as he runs away and then the hurricane winds blow the blood back towards Wilson and inside the car.

 

[lod01]

I agree that he couldn't have known for sure. However, he claims both that Brown was beating him so hard that he feared for his life, and that Brown tried to take the officer's gun. Why would he bother beating him with his fists and stealing the officer's gun if he had immediate access to a knife or, worse, a gun?

It's a lot to ask someone to do this mental calculation is such a short period of time in such difficult circumstances.

Absolutely perfect response.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

O'Donnell called himself a "practical European socialist" in a 2005 interview.progressive. I am not a liberal who is so afraid of the word that I had to change my name to 'progressive'. Liberals amuse me. I am a socialist. I lie to the extreme left, the extreme left of you mere liberals."



It's nice when you don't even know the timeline of "progressivism" and "liberalism." Shall I write him?

I listened to LOD a good bit last night and it had to be some of the most irresponsible media behavior I have ever seen.

are you saying you want a piece of me?

Hilarious, of course. - Sorry, I meant Larry O. I should have never brought you into this.

 

[jonessed]

I'll put the over/under at one for the amount of people who changed their minds because of this thread.

There is so much information and disinformation out there you can rationalize just about any viewpoint. And that's just for the minority that's willing to try and be informed at all.

No GJ or even a trial would have done much to change that.

 

[lod01]

O'Donnell called himself a "practical European socialist" in a 2005 interview.progressive. I am not a liberal who is so afraid of the word that I had to change my name to 'progressive'. Liberals amuse me. I am a socialist. I lie to the extreme left, the extreme left of you mere liberals."



It's nice when you don't even know the timeline of "progressivism" and "liberalism." Shall I write him?

I listened to LOD a good bit last night and it had to be some of the most irresponsible media behavior I have ever seen.

are you saying you want a piece of me?

Hilarious, of course. - Sorry, I meant Larry O. I should have never brought you into this.

I knew that. It was an opportunity to use that clip.

 

[squistion]

I'll put the over/under at one for the amount of people who changed their minds because of this thread.

There is so much information and disinformation out there you can rationalize just about any viewpoint. And that's just for the minority that's willing to try and be informed at all.

No GJ or even a trial would have done much to change that.

Exactly. The Zimmerman trial didn't seem to change any minds if you followed that thread.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'll put the over/under at one for the amount of people who changed their minds because of this thread.

There is so much information and disinformation out there you can rationalize just about any viewpoint. And that's just for the minority that's willing to try and be informed at all.

No GJ or even a trial would have done much to change that.

Exactly. The Zimmerman trial didn't seem to change any minds if you followed that thread.

I thought Zimmerman was a POS but I had zero problem with the verdict. I suspect that if this had gone to trial I would have reached the same conclusion about Wilson. I also understand why the community is angry because it sure looks like the prosecutor turned the grand jury, almost always a rubber-stamp proceeding, into a trial on the merits without the benefit of an attorney actually prosecuting the accused (no cross-examination of witnesses, no opening/closing arguments asking for a conviction, etc). I wouldn't have felt that way if there was a jury trial that had all that stuff and the guy was found innocent. My guess is that there's a decent number of people who feel the same.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'll put the over/under at one for the amount of people who changed their minds because of this thread.

There is so much information and disinformation out there you can rationalize just about any viewpoint. And that's just for the minority that's willing to try and be informed at all.

No GJ or even a trial would have done much to change that.

Exactly. The Zimmerman trial didn't seem to change any minds if you followed that thread.

I thought Zimmerman was a POS but I had zero problem with the verdict. I suspect that if this had gone to trial I would have reached the same conclusion about Wilson. I also understand why the community is angry because it sure looks like the prosecutor turned the grand jury, almost always a rubber-stamp proceeding, into a trial on the merits without the benefit of an attorney actually prosecuting the accused (no cross-examination of witnesses, no opening/closing arguments asking for a conviction, etc). I wouldn't have felt that way if there was a jury trial that had all that stuff and the guy was found innocent. My guess is that there's a decent number of people who feel the same.

yup....Zimmy caused the events that led to the shooting...for that he is guilty....shooting martin in self defense by the letter of the law he was innocent of murder. Any time we have a shooting involving cops its a dicey situation ...had this shooting involved 2 civilians it would have gone to trial ...that im sure of

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Didn't the cop have bruises on his face and neck from the beating Brown was giving him? The cop seemed to have acted the way he should have and Brown pretty much sealed his own fate by his actions.

I've sustained far greater injury having sex with my wife. Of course she is a vigorous minx.

You are not allowed to hit a cop. I don't know where in this topic people seem to think that there is an equality of actions between a civilian and a police officer. There is not.

I hope you did not take my comment on the quality of the visual evidence to indicate anything about appropriate legal standards to be applied in defense use of force scenarios, or in arrest use of force scenarios.

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

An alternative hypothesis.

The struggle took place in the car, for whatever reason or on whatever provocation, and regardless of who initiated it. It took place. During the struggle Wilson's gun discharged at least once, and I understand more likely twice. At least one of these shots grazed Brown's thumb and came with some searing hot gunshot residue going into his flesh. Now this likely: hurt, was startling, caused both parties an adrenaline rush triggering fight or flight responses beginning to obviate them analyzing their next moves 100% logically. (Now Wilson's training should have helped with this some, but it is difficult in training to really simulate situations to the point of producing rushes of adrenaline). We need also understand that discharge of a weapon in a car would be incredibly loud, would leave a painful ringing in the ears, and with the accompanying discharge of smoke would be very disorienting.

At any rate, Brown, being wounded and startled, would naturally, reflexively, begin retreating. It would be less natural for Wilson to immediately pursue, this would have to be a volitional action after some fractions of a second or more consideration.

When Wilson exits the car Brown has had whatever time to compose himself that it would take to travel whatever distance he got. I think we all agree this is not a long time, seconds at the most. As for Wilson he is now confronted with a split attention task. Outside the car is not just Brown, but Brown's cohort (His name temporarily escapes this confused old man's mind). It seems possible, likely even given common experience that Brown and the cohort were shouting back and forth, I mean Brown had just been shot, that is definitely information inviting communication, as is the fact that the cohort would naturally be worried having heard two shots. Officer Wilson may have been directing his attention, and his gun, back and forth between the two as yet less than fully assessed risks. During this process Brown may have seen an opportunity to advance on Wilson as Wilson's gun and attention swung to the cohort. He may have been encouraged to do so by his cohort, egged on as it were.

What we know from common experience is that criminals avoid apprehension. We also know that in fight or flight response scenarios one can turn instantly from the one response to the other. Experience tells us that young men misapprehend their abilities and competencies. Experience, no history, also shows that folks will charge at and fight armed Officers.

You are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation involving rage, injury, pain, fear, and desire to escape. The fat man may have decided his best escape is not to run, but to fight. Fat people understand that their running ability is limited after short distances. They are built for charging, not for marathons. For all we know he may have thought the Officer was stunned from his blows and shot. The officer may have been disoriented and staggering. the Officer may have presented an inviting target over the option of running.

I am not advocating this position. I am advocating that to dismiss it out of hand may be precipitous and may involve not assessing all the factors. You want to apply logic, but you ignore the human condition, and you forget to paint an accurate scenario, one involving Brown's friend in the picture as well. The cohort, the criminal confederate who is an independent actor, who likely was not a silent statue during the encounter, and even had he been he would have still created some split attention tsk for the officer potentially presenting Brown an opportunity for charging Wilson.

That's certainly a plausible scenario, but I do know that Wilson said explicitly of Brown's friend "After [him running away], I never saw him again" and he makes no mention of Brown talking to anyone, just that he made an "aggressive" noise or grunt.

I agree that you have the testimony correct. At least that is my understanding of the testimony as well. When I was postulating I was not dong so from the testimony, but on the basic scenario, and frankly my extensive experience in these matters. That Wilson did not recall or mention anything I postulated unprompted does not mean that pointed questions along those lines might not spur such recollection, and accurately so. This is in fact why we let attorney's question anyone's desired narrative, to flesh it out. Recall also that I am not advocating the position, I was just answering a question as to how such a scenario could have played out, not how it did play out.

I am not going to put myself out there as more knowledgeable on the specific facts of this case than are you, you who are clearly going to great lengths to educate yourself, and who have clearly done much more reading on the matter than I.

 

[mcintyre1]

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

Riffing off that point, here's me speculating:

A fullblown charge is completely unnecessary to establish a fight-or-flight scenario here. Let's rewind the speculation tape back to where Brown first wheeled around. Call it 35-40 feet from Wilson to average out the varying testimonies as to distance.

At that fleeting moment, Brown would not have to charge to communicate menace and ill intent. Even a slow-walk approach with threatening facial/body language would maintain and build up the flight-or-flight reptilian-brain instincts in Wilson. Think of Brown perhaps thinking "Are you really going to shoot me, MF-er?!?" as he makes a deliberate, threatening approach towards Wilson. Maybe Brown -- in his own fight-or-flight state after the gun discharge in the car -- thought to himself that Wilson's gun was empty, Or that Wilson wouldn't dare fire rounds in front of witnesses in daylight,

Again, I'm totally speculating here. But there are ways to think about the situation that can plausibly explain what went down. Can't prove it, of course. But maybe the God's-eye-view scenario was only a little nonsensical, and not ridiculously far-fetched.

Another plausible scenario, and yet another reason that this should have gone to trial. We needed the full public process on this one.

MC you keep saying this over and over about a trial--so what would you have had him charge?

The way I see it he had 3 choices in this case:

1) Review the evidence and come to the conclusion he can't bring anything and announce no charges--which would have elicited howls and screams that he isn't being transparent and hiding something.

2) Bring some lesser charges which would have elicited howls and screams that he is not being charged with murder. Further these charges (at least with the evidence as presented in the transcripts) would have had zero chance of sticking.

3) Go the route he did and show the grand jury and the world every scintilla of evidence to allow them to make a decision.

Option 2, I guess manslaughter, but I'm no expert on lesser charges in Missouri. And yes, I think he likely get an acquittal with only the presented evidence to the grand jury. However, from the evidence that I've seen released to the public so far (there are many skipped Witness #'s in the interview list), I think a trial would have been incredibly beneficial to pacifying the situation and getting closer to determining what actually happened that day. I do not personally believe that the prosecuting team in this case had much of an interest in proving Wilson wrong, which should have been their job.

 

[Widbil83]

Mike Brown's pastor believes white supremacists burned down his church not the protesters that burned down everything else-

The Missouri church attended by Michael Browns father and his family was one of a dozen or so buildings burned to the ground during Monday nights protests in the wake of a grand jurys decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson.

While the majority of the buildings destroyed on Monday were in downtown Ferguson, the Flood Christian Church is located some three miles away from the protests in a remote section of Country Club Hills.

Pastor Carlton Lee, who has been a vocal advocate for the Browns since their son was shot in August, has said he believes that white supremacists rather than protesters were to blame for the destruction.

Rev. Lee told NBC News that he believes his church was targeted because he has repeatedly called for the arrest of Officer Wilson.

'I'm very vocal in regards to the Michael Brown case,' said Lee, who has participated in rallies and press conferences with Michael Brown Sr. and claims to have received 71 death threats.

'The police called me and told me the church was on fire,' Lee said. 'I was in complete disbelief. I didn't think anyone would set a church on fire.

He suspects his church was targeted by white supremacists who wanted to punish him for his support of the Brown family.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2849736/Church-attended-Michael-Brown-s-family-destroyed-Monday-night-s-protests.html

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

SaintsinDome2006

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a conservative, but I am definitely on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think there are a ton of police brutality issues where officers are not punished for their wrongful actions. I think there are many cops who lie and massage reports to fit the narrative they need to get off. I think the officers in the Kelly Thomas murder, not killing, should be in prison.

Here is my beef with Officer Wilson and where I think much more attention should be focused. His initial contact with Brown is troubling. I could easily envision a scenario where he approached Brown in the middle of the street and said something is a rather abrasive or authoritarian manner. I have had numerous instances where officers approached me and their initial contact/tone was authoritative/quasi threatening. The problem with many police officers is that they treat every person they deal with like they are a a dirtbag. It is highly infuriating.

Putting my little feud with Sprouts aside...I agree with some of the sentiments he expressed with the tone/manner in which they have behaved towards him.

Now, after that initial contact, there really isn't anything I can really blame/fault the officer for doing. But, had Wilson just drove on by and dealt with more pressing matters than trying to scold Brown for walking in the street or playing the authoritarian card...then I think the situation probably would have been different.

I'm fully familiar with police corruption, and "bad cops". It's real here. But I have just always had a hard time understanding why a cop with no such background would just haul off and shoot someone 10 yards away unless he really thought it was necessary.

I want to make sure I am following you. Are you referring to what compelled Wilson to shoot Brown from a distance of 10 yards?

Yes I am talking about Wilson's alleged motive from those who wish to see him prosecuted. What's the charge? Murder, manslaughter or negligence homicide? And what's the motive if its murder? Racial animus? Based on what?

According to the Brown family lawyer last night the use of the term "demonic" is clearly indicative of racial animus.

 

[mcintyre1]

Didn't the cop have bruises on his face and neck from the beating Brown was giving him? The cop seemed to have acted the way he should have and Brown pretty much sealed his own fate by his actions.

I've sustained far greater injury having sex with my wife. Of course she is a vigorous minx.

You are not allowed to hit a cop. I don't know where in this topic people seem to think that there is an equality of actions between a civilian and a police officer. There is not.

I hope you did not take my comment on the quality of the visual evidence to indicate anything about appropriate legal standards to be applied in defense use of force scenarios, or in arrest use of force scenarios.

Look here's the part that doesn't make sense to me: if Brown assaulted Wilson at the car with the intent to kill Wilson, why didn't he finish it right there. Why did he walk or run away at least 30 feet, wait until Wilson got out of the car with his gun in hand and then charge Wilson at full speed as bullets are flying past him? No matter how many times I hear this scenario, I just can't see it happening.

Doesn't it make much more sense that Brown, who was a stupid thug, tried to punch Wilson, maybe even went for Wilson's gun, failed and got shot in the hand, took off and fled, so Wilson got out of the car, yells at Brown to stop, Brown turns around, and Wilson in a state of fury and fear shoots him dead? That's a story I can buy. I don't even particularly blame Wilson (though it would be a wrongful death). But this charging stuff has got to be nonsense.

An alternative hypothesis.

The struggle took place in the car, for whatever reason or on whatever provocation, and regardless of who initiated it. It took place. During the struggle Wilson's gun discharged at least once, and I understand more likely twice. At least one of these shots grazed Brown's thumb and came with some searing hot gunshot residue going into his flesh. Now this likely: hurt, was startling, caused both parties an adrenaline rush triggering fight or flight responses beginning to obviate them analyzing their next moves 100% logically. (Now Wilson's training should have helped with this some, but it is difficult in training to really simulate situations to the point of producing rushes of adrenaline). We need also understand that discharge of a weapon in a car would be incredibly loud, would leave a painful ringing in the ears, and with the accompanying discharge of smoke would be very disorienting.

At any rate, Brown, being wounded and startled, would naturally, reflexively, begin retreating. It would be less natural for Wilson to immediately pursue, this would have to be a volitional action after some fractions of a second or more consideration.

When Wilson exits the car Brown has had whatever time to compose himself that it would take to travel whatever distance he got. I think we all agree this is not a long time, seconds at the most. As for Wilson he is now confronted with a split attention task. Outside the car is not just Brown, but Brown's cohort (His name temporarily escapes this confused old man's mind). It seems possible, likely even given common experience that Brown and the cohort were shouting back and forth, I mean Brown had just been shot, that is definitely information inviting communication, as is the fact that the cohort would naturally be worried having heard two shots. Officer Wilson may have been directing his attention, and his gun, back and forth between the two as yet less than fully assessed risks. During this process Brown may have seen an opportunity to advance on Wilson as Wilson's gun and attention swung to the cohort. He may have been encouraged to do so by his cohort, egged on as it were.

What we know from common experience is that criminals avoid apprehension. We also know that in fight or flight response scenarios one can turn instantly from the one response to the other. Experience tells us that young men misapprehend their abilities and competencies. Experience, no history, also shows that folks will charge at and fight armed Officers.

You are trying to apply logic to an illogical situation involving rage, injury, pain, fear, and desire to escape. The fat man may have decided his best escape is not to run, but to fight. Fat people understand that their running ability is limited after short distances. They are built for charging, not for marathons. For all we know he may have thought the Officer was stunned from his blows and shot. The officer may have been disoriented and staggering. the Officer may have presented an inviting target over the option of running.

I am not advocating this position. I am advocating that to dismiss it out of hand may be precipitous and may involve not assessing all the factors. You want to apply logic, but you ignore the human condition, and you forget to paint an accurate scenario, one involving Brown's friend in the picture as well. The cohort, the criminal confederate who is an independent actor, who likely was not a silent statue during the encounter, and even had he been he would have still created some split attention tsk for the officer potentially presenting Brown an opportunity for charging Wilson.

That's certainly a plausible scenario, but I do know that Wilson said explicitly of Brown's friend "After [him running away], I never saw him again" and he makes no mention of Brown talking to anyone, just that he made an "aggressive" noise or grunt.

I agree that you have the testimony correct. At least that is my understanding of the testimony as well. When I was postulating I was not dong so from the testimony, but on the basic scenario, and frankly my extensive experience in these matters. That Wilson did not recall or mention anything I postulated unprompted does not mean that pointed questions along those lines might not spur such recollection, and accurately so. This is in fact why we let attorney's question anyone's desired narrative, to flesh it out. Recall also that I am not advocating the position, I was just answering a question as to how such a scenario could have played out, not how it did play out.

I am not going to put myself out there as more knowledgeable on the specific facts of this case than are you, you who are clearly going to great lengths to educate yourself, and who have clearly done much more reading on the matter than I.

Thanks, but I'm definitely no expert on this. There's thousands of pages to go through that I haven't seen. I am talking half out of my ### because I haven't seen it all yet (and frankly, I highly doubt my drive and interest will remain such that I finish all ~5000 pages of documentation). You're definitely right, it may have happened as you postulated, and that certainly might have come out under more intense questioning.

 

[lod01]

Mike Brown's pastor believes white supremacists burned down his church not the protesters that burned down everything else-

The Missouri church attended by Michael Browns father and his family was one of a dozen or so buildings burned to the ground during Monday nights protests in the wake of a grand jurys decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson.

While the majority of the buildings destroyed on Monday were in downtown Ferguson, the Flood Christian Church is located some three miles away from the protests in a remote section of Country Club Hills.

Pastor Carlton Lee, who has been a vocal advocate for the Browns since their son was shot in August, has said he believes that white supremacists rather than protesters were to blame for the destruction.

Rev. Lee told NBC News that he believes his church was targeted because he has repeatedly called for the arrest of Officer Wilson.

'I'm very vocal in regards to the Michael Brown case,' said Lee, who has participated in rallies and press conferences with Michael Brown Sr. and claims to have received 71 death threats.

'The police called me and told me the church was on fire,' Lee said. 'I was in complete disbelief. I didn't think anyone would set a church on fire.

He suspects his church was targeted by white supremacists who wanted to punish him for his support of the Brown family.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2849736/Church-attended-Michael-Brown-s-family-destroyed-Monday-night-s-protests.html

Unless this guy has solid evidence of what he is claiming, he is part of the problem. Right now he is just making accusations.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Fair enough. I can buy that. I would suggest that the full blown charge was fabricated afterward.

Riffing off that point, here's me speculating:

A fullblown charge is completely unnecessary to establish a fight-or-flight scenario here. Let's rewind the speculation tape back to where Brown first wheeled around. Call it 35-40 feet from Wilson to average out the varying testimonies as to distance.

At that fleeting moment, Brown would not have to charge to communicate menace and ill intent. Even a slow-walk approach with threatening facial/body language would maintain and build up the flight-or-flight reptilian-brain instincts in Wilson. Think of Brown perhaps thinking "Are you really going to shoot me, MF-er?!?" as he makes a deliberate, threatening approach towards Wilson. Maybe Brown -- in his own fight-or-flight state after the gun discharge in the car -- thought to himself that Wilson's gun was empty, Or that Wilson wouldn't dare fire rounds in front of witnesses in daylight,

Again, I'm totally speculating here. But there are ways to think about the situation that can plausibly explain what went down. Can't prove it, of course. But maybe the God's-eye-view scenario was only a little nonsensical, and not ridiculously far-fetched.

Another plausible scenario, and yet another reason that this should have gone to trial. We needed the full public process on this one.

MC you keep saying this over and over about a trial--so what would you have had him charge?

The way I see it he had 3 choices in this case:

1) Review the evidence and come to the conclusion he can't bring anything and announce no charges--which would have elicited howls and screams that he isn't being transparent and hiding something.

2) Bring some lesser charges which would have elicited howls and screams that he is not being charged with murder. Further these charges (at least with the evidence as presented in the transcripts) would have had zero chance of sticking.

3) Go the route he did and show the grand jury and the world every scintilla of evidence to allow them to make a decision.

Option 2, I guess manslaughter, but I'm no expert on lesser charges in Missouri. And yes, I think he likely get an acquittal with only the presented evidence to the grand jury. However, from the evidence that I've seen released to the public so far (there are many skipped Witness #'s in the interview list), I think a trial would have been incredibly beneficial to pacifying the situation and getting closer to determining what actually happened that day. I do not personally believe that the prosecuting team in this case had much of an interest in proving Wilson wrong, which should have been their job.

A trial may well have accomplished what you say. That, however, is not the purpose of our criminal justice system. We do not put persons on trial for their life or liberty because in the course of spending their fortune and time defending themselves from charges which do not rise to probable cause it would help elucidate a social issue.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

SaintsinDome2006

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a conservative, but I am definitely on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think there are a ton of police brutality issues where officers are not punished for their wrongful actions. I think there are many cops who lie and massage reports to fit the narrative they need to get off. I think the officers in the Kelly Thomas murder, not killing, should be in prison.

Here is my beef with Officer Wilson and where I think much more attention should be focused. His initial contact with Brown is troubling. I could easily envision a scenario where he approached Brown in the middle of the street and said something is a rather abrasive or authoritarian manner. I have had numerous instances where officers approached me and their initial contact/tone was authoritative/quasi threatening. The problem with many police officers is that they treat every person they deal with like they are a a dirtbag. It is highly infuriating.

Putting my little feud with Sprouts aside...I agree with some of the sentiments he expressed with the tone/manner in which they have behaved towards him.

Now, after that initial contact, there really isn't anything I can really blame/fault the officer for doing. But, had Wilson just drove on by and dealt with more pressing matters than trying to scold Brown for walking in the street or playing the authoritarian card...then I think the situation probably would have been different.

I'm fully familiar with police corruption, and "bad cops". It's real here. But I have just always had a hard time understanding why a cop with no such background would just haul off and shoot someone 10 yards away unless he really thought it was necessary.

I want to make sure I am following you. Are you referring to what compelled Wilson to shoot Brown from a distance of 10 yards?

Yes I am talking about Wilson's alleged motive from those who wish to see him prosecuted. What's the charge? Murder, manslaughter or negligence homicide? And what's the motive if its murder? Racial animus? Based on what?

According to the Brown family lawyer last night the use of the term "demonic" is clearly indicative of racial animus.

Well most of your lesser imps and demons are thought to be the spawn of Lucifer, an individual whose prominent physical features are cloven hoofs, a bifurcated tail, horns, and red skin. If skin color and physical features define race, well then calling someone a demon may be racist, or this may all be a bunch of hooey from a race baiter.

 

[General Tso]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

When you examine the foot impressions Brown left in the pavement and measure the distance between them, you have your answer.JFC. There is no physical evidence of that on pavement. There can't be. There is eyewitness testimony. Just wondering when you guys are going to jump on the 'they must have paid these people off to make those statements' angle.

You are absolutely, 100% wrong. There is plenty of physical evidence, and all of it is consistent with Brown walking (or "charging", whatever word you want to use) towards Wilson. There are blood spatter patterns. The first one is 35 fee away from Wilson and the last one is 8 feet away. And all the entrance wounds were to the front of Brown's body (contrary to Brown's friend, who continues to assert that he was shot in the back while walking away). The physical evidence is conclusive, which is why the grand jury didn't indict. If Michael Brown listened to Wilson's commands and simply stayed put, he wouldn't have been shot.

 

[Todem]

I'll put the over/under at one for the amount of people who changed their minds because of this thread.

There is so much information and disinformation out there you can rationalize just about any viewpoint. And that's just for the minority that's willing to try and be informed at all.

No GJ or even a trial would have done much to change that.

Exactly. The Zimmerman trial didn't seem to change any minds if you followed that thread.

I thought Zimmerman was a POS but I had zero problem with the verdict. I suspect that if this had gone to trial I would have reached the same conclusion about Wilson. I also understand why the community is angry because it sure looks like the prosecutor turned the grand jury, almost always a rubber-stamp proceeding, into a trial on the merits without the benefit of an attorney actually prosecuting the accused (no cross-examination of witnesses, no opening/closing arguments asking for a conviction, etc). I wouldn't have felt that way if there was a jury trial that had all that stuff and the guy was found innocent. My guess is that there's a decent number of people who feel the same.

Tobias...your just a real extreme left wing conspiracy theorist.

I think we all get that.

The community is angry because they think a black teenager was murdered by a white police officer. The CNN left wing legal analysts are angry because they think like you do. That it's all rigged. And the bleeding heart liberals who want to show how liberal they are will argue how the legal system is against the black community. But most people with any semblance of common sense understands this was not some innocent unarmed teenager who was shot and killed.

This was a 6'4' 292 lb man who robbed a local convenience store, attacked a police officer, fled after a confrontation and gun shot inside a squad car and then turned on the officer and we know the rest of the story.

So you can sit here and talk all you want about how the grand jury and legal process is wrong, flawed or whatever the hell else you and the rest of the ignorant punks (and your not an ignorant punk Tobias so don't think I am saying that to you) in this thread want to say.

I find it appalling that our media manipulated this story from the get go on absolutely worthless information and hearsay and the court of public opinion was done. Officer Wilson was tried and proven guilty the day it happened by the black community of Ferguson and this has been one giant lynch mob the last two days.

It's appalling and a complete embarrassment to our country, the outright lack of respect of our law's, our legal system and our men and woman of our law enforcement who put their life at risk everyday of their lives. Our forefathers died for the very legal system and laws we have so we can live in a free society.

It's not perfect, it has flaws and it will never be perfect....ever. There has been plenty of racism in this country and around the world. I myself being a Jewish man have been the target of racism and bigotry over the course of my life. As well as my grand parents who survived the holocaust and came to this country with nothing after every thing including their families were taken away.

I am tired of this. I am just tired of people who think they are being held back and instead of using their minds resort to violence, crime and flat out just leech off hard working tax paying Americans. This country has come so far in race relations and everyone....everyone has a chance to STAKE THEIR CLAIM. What I am seeing on display in Ferguson is disgusting. It is a microcosm of the larger problem of children being raised...no make that programmed to hate authority and have no respect. This is an inbred issue. And it does not only go for black youths. it goes for all lower income inner city youths, white, black, spanish...whatever.

Our country needs to wake up. We can't allow people to decide it's ok to defy our laws in the name of justice. Otherwise we are going to go right back to the Wild West and lot's and lot's of people will die. If you can't accept the process that is in place and respect the law, I have zero sympathy for you.

Zero.

If your going to cry racism every time something does not go your way I have zero sympathy for you. This case had nothing to do with racism. It has everything to do with a young man who made some horrible decisions and it cost him his life. If he simply would have moved out of the street and walked on the side walk like an officer of the law asked him to....he would be alive today. But he chose to defy and disrespect an officer of the law, attack him, and here we are.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a conservative, but I am definitely on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think there are a ton of police brutality issues where officers are not punished for their wrongful actions. I think there are many cops who lie and massage reports to fit the narrative they need to get off. I think the officers in the Kelly Thomas murder, not killing, should be in prison.

Here is my beef with Officer Wilson and where I think much more attention should be focused. His initial contact with Brown is troubling. I could easily envision a scenario where he approached Brown in the middle of the street and said something is a rather abrasive or authoritarian manner. I have had numerous instances where officers approached me and their initial contact/tone was authoritative/quasi threatening. The problem with many police officers is that they treat every person they deal with like they are a a dirtbag. It is highly infuriating.

Putting my little feud with Sprouts aside...I agree with some of the sentiments he expressed with the tone/manner in which they have behaved towards him.

Now, after that initial contact, there really isn't anything I can really blame/fault the officer for doing. But, had Wilson just drove on by and dealt with more pressing matters than trying to scold Brown for walking in the street or playing the authoritarian card...then I think the situation probably would have been different.

I'm fully familiar with police corruption, and "bad cops". It's real here. But I have just always had a hard time understanding why a cop with no such background would just haul off and shoot someone 10 yards away unless he really thought it was necessary.

I want to make sure I am following you. Are you referring to what compelled Wilson to shoot Brown from a distance of 10 yards?

Yes I am talking about Wilson's alleged motive from those who wish to see him prosecuted. What's the charge? Murder, manslaughter or negligence homicide? And what's the motive if its murder? Racial animus? Based on what?

According to the Brown family lawyer last night the use of the term "demonic" is clearly indicative of racial animus.

And what do you think of that?

 

[lod01]

Hey Rick6668, please explain what physical evidence there is that Brown charged Wilson? That's what I wrote I wasn't buying.

When you examine the foot impressions Brown left in the pavement and measure the distance between them, you have your answer.JFC. There is no physical evidence of that on pavement. There can't be. There is eyewitness testimony. Just wondering when you guys are going to jump on the 'they must have paid these people off to make those statements' angle.

You are absolutely, 100% wrong. There is plenty of physical evidence, and all of it is consistent with Brown walking (or "charging", whatever word you want to use) towards Wilson. There are blood spatter patterns. The first one is 35 fee away from Wilson and the last one is 8 feet away. And all the entrance wounds were to the front of Brown's body (contrary to Brown's friend, who continues to assert that he was shot in the back while walking away). The physical evidence is conclusive, which is why the grand jury didn't indict. If Michael Brown listened to Wilson's commands and simply stayed put, he wouldn't have been shot.

No, I'm not. They already said that they could not tell if he was running or walking towards Wilson based on the blood on the ground. They only point to him moving in Wilson's direction at best. Thus it would not hold up in a court of law.

 

[General Tso]

For the record, I am a bleeding heart liberal, dyed in the wool Kennedy Democrat, and I am 100% supportive of Officer Wilson in this case. The Left has gone WAY off the rails on this one, and it is going to do nothing but hurt the liberal cause and result in moving more people to right side of the political spectrum.

 

[Todem]

Mike Brown's pastor believes white supremacists burned down his church not the protesters that burned down everything else-

The Missouri church attended by Michael Browns father and his family was one of a dozen or so buildings burned to the ground during Monday nights protests in the wake of a grand jurys decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson.

While the majority of the buildings destroyed on Monday were in downtown Ferguson, the Flood Christian Church is located some three miles away from the protests in a remote section of Country Club Hills.

Pastor Carlton Lee, who has been a vocal advocate for the Browns since their son was shot in August, has said he believes that white supremacists rather than protesters were to blame for the destruction.

Rev. Lee told NBC News that he believes his church was targeted because he has repeatedly called for the arrest of Officer Wilson.

'I'm very vocal in regards to the Michael Brown case,' said Lee, who has participated in rallies and press conferences with Michael Brown Sr. and claims to have received 71 death threats.

'The police called me and told me the church was on fire,' Lee said. 'I was in complete disbelief. I didn't think anyone would set a church on fire.

He suspects his church was targeted by white supremacists who wanted to punish him for his support of the Brown family.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2849736/Church-attended-Michael-Brown-s-family-destroyed-Monday-night-s-protests.html

Denial and madness continues. It's is unreal.

 

[Todem]

For the record, I am a bleeding heart liberal, dyed in the wool Kennedy Democrat, and I am 100% supportive of Officer Wilson in this case. The Left has gone WAY off the rails on this one, and it is going to do nothing but hurt the liberal cause and result in moving more people to right side of the political spectrum.

For the record I am right down the middle. Always have been. I hate using the term but I would say conservative democrat.

I could not agree more with your post

 

[dickey moe]

Didn't the cop have bruises on his face and neck from the beating Brown was giving him? The cop seemed to have acted the way he should have and Brown pretty much sealed his own fate by his actions.

I have similar bruises on my leg from bumping into the coffee table this morning. Shot that ###### six times before I left the house.

Did this inanimate object try to grab your gun first and later charge you head-on?