Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

I resent Henry Ford. Damned anti-Semite.

:(

 

[Christo]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

Kids and young adults too? I cant think of a single instance I have ever heard anything like that. Not even jokingly.

You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

 

[tdoss]

whatever happened to tasing people...it just seems people with guns are so quick to use them...and if you have to shoot an unarmed person how about unleashing a clip into the guys legs if he`s charging...thats bound to slow him down without killing him. I already know the responses ill get but what the hey...its just a thought.

It's a terrible thought. You should never fire a gun unless you intend to kill. Officers are not an exception.It's not easy to shoot someone in the legs.

Plus...the cop pretty much unloaded on this guy before he finally went down with the head shot.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

So most of you believe that Brown charged into a hail of gunfire? This is based on Wilson's testimony, and a few cherry picked witnesses. You guys are hilarious.

People earn medals running through machine gun fire.

so M.Brown was a hero?

Not a "hero", but a really good kid. A "Gentle Giant", if you will.

Hulk Hogan.

He had the weight thing down.

and the tan thing

 

[Patrick Bateman]

The truth is, Wilson doctored the evidence, and had his boys cover for him. The Prosecutor is also in on the deal, as he has close ties to law enforcement, and an 0-5 record when it comes to indicting cops in shooting unarmed African Americans. That's the reality. It happens all the time, all across the country. You'll have a lot of 40+ year old white males that will vehemently disagree. Same old same old.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

i cant believe shes cheating on Christopher

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

whatever happened to tasing people...it just seems people with guns are so quick to use them...and if you have to shoot an unarmed person how about unleashing a clip into the guys legs if he`s charging...thats bound to slow him down without killing him. I already know the responses ill get but what the hey...its just a thought.

It's a terrible thought. You should never fire a gun unless you intend to kill. Officers are not an exception.It's not easy to shoot someone in the legs.

why?

A small and moving target.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

whatever happened to tasing people...it just seems people with guns are so quick to use them...and if you have to shoot an unarmed person how about unleashing a clip into the guys legs if he`s charging...thats bound to slow him down without killing him. I already know the responses ill get but what the hey...its just a thought.

It's a terrible thought. You should never fire a gun unless you intend to kill. Officers are not an exception.It's not easy to shoot someone in the legs.

why?

A small and moving target.

he hit the left arm pretty good

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

whatever happened to tasing people...it just seems people with guns are so quick to use them...and if you have to shoot an unarmed person how about unleashing a clip into the guys legs if he`s charging...thats bound to slow him down without killing him. I already know the responses ill get but what the hey...its just a thought.

It's a terrible thought. You should never fire a gun unless you intend to kill. Officers are not an exception.It's not easy to shoot someone in the legs.

why?

A small and moving target.

he hit the left arm pretty good

He was aiming at the heart at the time.

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. You are going to take cherry picked testimony, and present it as fact. How many times did you use the word "probably" in your post? Speaks volumes. This case should have gone to a jury trial.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

i must have missed that ...where was it ?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

whatever happened to tasing people...it just seems people with guns are so quick to use them...and if you have to shoot an unarmed person how about unleashing a clip into the guys legs if he`s charging...thats bound to slow him down without killing him. I already know the responses ill get but what the hey...its just a thought.

It's a terrible thought. You should never fire a gun unless you intend to kill. Officers are not an exception.It's not easy to shoot someone in the legs.

why?

A small and moving target.

he hit the left arm pretty good

He was aiming at the heart at the time.

ok...so aim at his junk and hit the legs ...simple

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. You are going to take cherry picked testimony, and present it as fact. How many times did you use the word "probably" in your post? Speaks volumes. This case should have gone to a jury trial.

I think i said "probably" twice in reference to the number of shots/how many times they hit on each volley. NOBODY KNOWS THIS INFORMATION WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. Forgive me for not pretending to be all-knowing.

What information did I cherry pick? Feel free to provide facts that contradict anything I have written.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. You are going to take cherry picked testimony, and present it as fact. How many times did you use the word "probably" in your post? Speaks volumes. This case should have gone to a jury trial.

I think i said "probably" twice in reference to the number of shots/how many times they hit on each volley. NOBODY KNOWS THIS INFORMATION WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. Forgive me for not pretending to be all-knowing.

What information did I cherry pick? Feel free to provide facts that contradict anything I have written.

Im one who thought this was a straight out murder when it first happened ...and thats was because anytime you combine the death of an unarmed person who was shot 6 times by a cop and the cops act very strangely ,this is what will happen.

Im not going to flat out say i think this was a justified shooting but if it went down the way the cop said then he really had to shoot Brown...i just wish they could try and shoot to maim instead . It would take a fraction of a second to do both ...rifle off 4 shots to the legs ...if that doesn't work rifle off the rest of the clip at the center mass...if you do that you avoid causing so many problems .

 

[timschochet]

SIDA, I just want you to know that I read your post in full, and I appreciate all of the time and thought you put into it.

I'm not going to respond to the specifics of what you wrote. As I mentioned, I'm actually weary of going over this. But I hope that others will engage you and allow for a good discussion.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Im not going to flat out say i think this was a justified shooting but if it went down the way the cop said then he really had to shoot Brown...i just wish they could try and shoot to maim instead . It would take a fraction of a second to do both ...rifle off 4 shots to the legs ...if that doesn't work rifle off the rest of the clip at the center mass...if you do that you avoid causing so many problems .

I would love to see more money spent on researching weapons that drop you, but rarely kill you.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. You are going to take cherry picked testimony, and present it as fact. How many times did you use the word "probably" in your post? Speaks volumes. This case should have gone to a jury trial.

I think i said "probably" twice in reference to the number of shots/how many times they hit on each volley. NOBODY KNOWS THIS INFORMATION WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. Forgive me for not pretending to be all-knowing.

What information did I cherry pick? Feel free to provide facts that contradict anything I have written.

Im one who thought this was a straight out murder when it first happened ...and thats was because anytime you combine the death of an unarmed person who was shot 6 times by a cop and the cops act very strangely ,this is what will happen.

Im not going to flat out say i think this was a justified shooting but if it went down the way the cop said then he really had to shoot Brown...i just wish they could try and shoot to maim instead . It would take a fraction of a second to do both ...rifle off 4 shots to the legs ...if that doesn't work rifle off the rest of the clip at the center mass...if you do that you avoid causing so many problems .

That's a big if. Everyone is jumping on Wilson's testimony as fact. Cops lie all the time under oath. They also fabricate police reports. You have to remember, Wilson was fired from a police force, that was deemed to be too racist before he joined Ferguson. Jennings MO force was fired in 2011 due to racial tensions.

 

[SIDA!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

You talking about the guy who says Darren Wilson is 6 foot and that Brown is 6 foot 5 inches...even though Wilson is almost 6 foot 4 inches? Yeah, I listened to what he said. He and I basically agree about the sequence of shots. Arm shots, chest, head shots.

The autopsy shows that the wound to the forearm and upper arm have a slight upward angle. You realize that when you shoot a gun the gun actually isn't being shot from the top of the head, right? The gun shot would easily have a slight upward angle if the officer is firing toward somebody who is slightly taller. He wouldn't be standing erect against a wall to have his height measured by his mom next to the door jamb. He would have his legs parted effectively making him shorter and his gun would be lower still. A guy measuring 6'4" might have his gun pointed at the suspect at a height of around 5'4 inches when all is said and done.

His other beef is with the supposed distance between Wilson and Brown when he shot him being 30 feet. If you want to cite a source for that distance, please do so. I thought i heard Wilson may have said that as well...but I don't recall whether that was confirmed.

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. You are going to take cherry picked testimony, and present it as fact. How many times did you use the word "probably" in your post? Speaks volumes. This case should have gone to a jury trial.

I think i said "probably" twice in reference to the number of shots/how many times they hit on each volley. NOBODY KNOWS THIS INFORMATION WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. Forgive me for not pretending to be all-knowing.

What information did I cherry pick? Feel free to provide facts that contradict anything I have written.

Im one who thought this was a straight out murder when it first happened ...and thats was because anytime you combine the death of an unarmed person who was shot 6 times by a cop and the cops act very strangely ,this is what will happen.

Im not going to flat out say i think this was a justified shooting but if it went down the way the cop said then he really had to shoot Brown...i just wish they could try and shoot to maim instead . It would take a fraction of a second to do both ...rifle off 4 shots to the legs ...if that doesn't work rifle off the rest of the clip at the center mass...if you do that you avoid causing so many problems .

That's a big if. Everyone is jumping on Wilson's testimony as fact. Cops lie all the time under oath. They also fabricate police reports. You have to remember, Wilson was fired from a police force, that was deemed to be too racist before he joined Ferguson. Jennings MO force was fired in 2011 due to racial tensions.

Wilson was not fired from a police force. The force was disbanded for reasons having nothing to do with Officer Wilson, if I have my facts straight.

 

[SIDA!]

SIDA, I just want you to know that I read your post in full, and I appreciate all of the time and thought you put into it.

I'm not going to respond to the specifics of what you wrote. As I mentioned, I'm actually weary of going over this. But I hope that others will engage you and allow for a good discussion.

Fair enough. Thank you for the kind words.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

You talking about the guy who says Darren Wilson is 6 foot and that Brown is 6 foot 5 inches...even though Wilson is almost 6 foot 4 inches? Yeah, I listened to what he said. He and I basically agree about the sequence of shots. Arm shots, chest, head shots.

The autopsy shows that the wound to the forearm and upper arm have a slight upward angle. You realize that when you shoot a gun the gun actually isn't being shot from the top of the head, right? The gun shot would easily have a slight upward angle if the officer is firing toward somebody who is slightly taller. He wouldn't be standing erect against a wall to have his height measured by his mom next to the door jamb. He would have his legs parted effectively making him shorter and his gun would be lower still. A guy measuring 6'4" might have his gun pointed at the suspect at a height of around 5'4 inches when all is said and done.

His other beef is with the supposed distance between Wilson and Brown when he shot him being 30 feet. If you want to cite a source for that distance, please do so. I thought i heard Wilson may have said that as well...but I don't recall whether that was confirmed.

He's not on your side! Lol! keep trying to manipulate what he said! The 6'0 blurb actually makes it worse!! He's 6'4" So his arms were definitely upright! Bullets entered at an upward trajectory into his arms.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Well that's the Fox News version.

LOL. That is all you have to say?

That is my version. I have read the two different autopsies, read Wilson's testimony and looked at significant chunks of the grand jury report. You are more than welcome to...um...you know...rebut anything I have written. It might require more than a witty one liner on your part...so effort will be required.

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. You are going to take cherry picked testimony, and present it as fact. How many times did you use the word "probably" in your post? Speaks volumes. This case should have gone to a jury trial.

I think i said "probably" twice in reference to the number of shots/how many times they hit on each volley. NOBODY KNOWS THIS INFORMATION WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. Forgive me for not pretending to be all-knowing.

What information did I cherry pick? Feel free to provide facts that contradict anything I have written.

Im one who thought this was a straight out murder when it first happened ...and thats was because anytime you combine the death of an unarmed person who was shot 6 times by a cop and the cops act very strangely ,this is what will happen.

Im not going to flat out say i think this was a justified shooting but if it went down the way the cop said then he really had to shoot Brown...i just wish they could try and shoot to maim instead . It would take a fraction of a second to do both ...rifle off 4 shots to the legs ...if that doesn't work rifle off the rest of the clip at the center mass...if you do that you avoid causing so many problems .

That's a big if. Everyone is jumping on Wilson's testimony as fact. Cops lie all the time under oath. They also fabricate police reports. You have to remember, Wilson was fired from a police force, that was deemed to be too racist before he joined Ferguson. Jennings MO force was fired in 2011 due to racial tensions.

Wilson was not fired from a police force. The force was disbanded for reasons having nothing to do with Officer Wilson, if I have my facts straight.

The force was disbanded due to racial tensions. He obviously played a part if the entire force was dismissed. In your world, he was adamantly against the rest of the force, he was the "good guy". Sorry, doesn't work that way. Police officers stick together.

 

[SIDA!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

You talking about the guy who says Darren Wilson is 6 foot and that Brown is 6 foot 5 inches...even though Wilson is almost 6 foot 4 inches? Yeah, I listened to what he said. He and I basically agree about the sequence of shots. Arm shots, chest, head shots.

The autopsy shows that the wound to the forearm and upper arm have a slight upward angle. You realize that when you shoot a gun the gun actually isn't being shot from the top of the head, right? The gun shot would easily have a slight upward angle if the officer is firing toward somebody who is slightly taller. He wouldn't be standing erect against a wall to have his height measured by his mom next to the door jamb. He would have his legs parted effectively making him shorter and his gun would be lower still. A guy measuring 6'4" might have his gun pointed at the suspect at a height of around 5'4 inches when all is said and done.

His other beef is with the supposed distance between Wilson and Brown when he shot him being 30 feet. If you want to cite a source for that distance, please do so. I thought i heard Wilson may have said that as well...but I don't recall whether that was confirmed.

He's not on your side! Lol! keep trying to manipulate what he said! The 6'0 blurb actually makes it worse!! He's 6'4" So his arms were definitely upright! Bullets entered at an upward trajectory into his arms.

It makes it worse and yet I mentioned it because you fail to grasp the fact that it doesn't negate Wilson's story. I included it because he is supposedly so well versed and knowledgeable about this subject that he doesn't know Darren Wilson's height and yet he is supposedly more credible?

Patrick...how tall are you? Let's assume you are 6 feet tall. Now pretend to fire a gun at a target. When you aim the gun, are you still 6 feet tall? No. And when you aim that imaginary gun and measure the distance between it and the ground...is it at 6 feet? No. It is probably resting about 5 feet off the ground. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

SIDA! will believe what he wants to believe. I hope that someday, we can come together as a nation. No doubt that racism still exists in a big way.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

You talking about the guy who says Darren Wilson is 6 foot and that Brown is 6 foot 5 inches...even though Wilson is almost 6 foot 4 inches? Yeah, I listened to what he said. He and I basically agree about the sequence of shots. Arm shots, chest, head shots.

The autopsy shows that the wound to the forearm and upper arm have a slight upward angle. You realize that when you shoot a gun the gun actually isn't being shot from the top of the head, right? The gun shot would easily have a slight upward angle if the officer is firing toward somebody who is slightly taller. He wouldn't be standing erect against a wall to have his height measured by his mom next to the door jamb. He would have his legs parted effectively making him shorter and his gun would be lower still. A guy measuring 6'4" might have his gun pointed at the suspect at a height of around 5'4 inches when all is said and done.

His other beef is with the supposed distance between Wilson and Brown when he shot him being 30 feet. If you want to cite a source for that distance, please do so. I thought i heard Wilson may have said that as well...but I don't recall whether that was confirmed.

He's not on your side! Lol! keep trying to manipulate what he said! The 6'0 blurb actually makes it worse!! He's 6'4" So his arms were definitely upright! Bullets entered at an upward trajectory into his arms.

It makes it worse and yet I mentioned it because you fail to grasp the fact that it doesn't negate Wilson's story. I included it because he is supposedly so well versed and knowledgeable about this subject that he doesn't know Darren Wilson's height and yet he is supposedly more credible?

Patrick...how tall are you? Let's assume you are 6 feet tall. Now pretend to fire a gun at a target. When you aim the gun, are you still 6 feet tall? No. And when you aim that imaginary gun and measure the distance between it and the ground...is it at 6 feet? No. It is probably resting about 5 feet off the ground. Do you disagree with this?

Stop assuming. Probably this, and assuming that doesn't help you at all. The issue here, as evidenced by your remarks in this thread, is that you have a certain disdain for Black folks. Let's just end it here.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hey, could we get some more nested quotes?

 

[SIDA!]

That's a big if. Everyone is jumping on Wilson's testimony as fact. Cops lie all the time under oath. They also fabricate police reports. You have to remember, Wilson was fired from a police force, that was deemed to be too racist before he joined Ferguson. Jennings MO force was fired in 2011 due to racial tensions.

Wilson was not fired from a police force. The force was disbanded for reasons having nothing to do with Officer Wilson, if I have my facts straight.

The force was disbanded due to racial tensions. He obviously played a part if the entire force was dismissed. In your world, he was adamantly against the rest of the force, he was the "good guy". Sorry, doesn't work that way. Police officers stick together.

You are trying to tell the rest of us that a rookie cop who joined Jennings PD in June of 2009 and who had no disciplinary actions against him was somehow a corruptible influence and participated in bringing down an entire police force in less than two years? Are you kidding me?

I am not arguing Wilson was "the good guy" opposing the rest of the force. I am writing that Wilson was a rookie trying to get his legs under him and that it is comical to put any blame on a rookie officer for some culture of corruption or racism issues. Go ahead and hang your hat on that.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

wheres Serpico when you need him

 

[SIDA!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

You talking about the guy who says Darren Wilson is 6 foot and that Brown is 6 foot 5 inches...even though Wilson is almost 6 foot 4 inches? Yeah, I listened to what he said. He and I basically agree about the sequence of shots. Arm shots, chest, head shots.

The autopsy shows that the wound to the forearm and upper arm have a slight upward angle. You realize that when you shoot a gun the gun actually isn't being shot from the top of the head, right? The gun shot would easily have a slight upward angle if the officer is firing toward somebody who is slightly taller. He wouldn't be standing erect against a wall to have his height measured by his mom next to the door jamb. He would have his legs parted effectively making him shorter and his gun would be lower still. A guy measuring 6'4" might have his gun pointed at the suspect at a height of around 5'4 inches when all is said and done.

His other beef is with the supposed distance between Wilson and Brown when he shot him being 30 feet. If you want to cite a source for that distance, please do so. I thought i heard Wilson may have said that as well...but I don't recall whether that was confirmed.

He's not on your side! Lol! keep trying to manipulate what he said! The 6'0 blurb actually makes it worse!! He's 6'4" So his arms were definitely upright! Bullets entered at an upward trajectory into his arms.

It makes it worse and yet I mentioned it because you fail to grasp the fact that it doesn't negate Wilson's story. I included it because he is supposedly so well versed and knowledgeable about this subject that he doesn't know Darren Wilson's height and yet he is supposedly more credible?

Patrick...how tall are you? Let's assume you are 6 feet tall. Now pretend to fire a gun at a target. When you aim the gun, are you still 6 feet tall? No. And when you aim that imaginary gun and measure the distance between it and the ground...is it at 6 feet? No. It is probably resting about 5 feet off the ground. Do you disagree with this?

Stop assuming. Probably this, and assuming that doesn't help you at all. The issue here, as evidenced by your remarks in this thread, is that you have a certain disdain for Black folks. Let's just end it here.

Yeah. Let's just end it where you call me a racist without substantiating the claim. Sounds good.

The race card is tired. Please find anything I have said or anywhere I have intimated any disdain for blacks. You do realize I am the guy who is saying that there should be a potentially criminal investigation into the shooting of that "white kid" in Cleveland...Tamir Rice...right?

So allow me to stop assuming. Tell me how tall you are and how far a gun is off the ground when hold one in your hands and pretend to shoot at a target? Or am I going to get crickets on this, too?

 

[timschochet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWUkBxmFUvU He's slightly more credible than SIDA! Lol!

You talking about the guy who says Darren Wilson is 6 foot and that Brown is 6 foot 5 inches...even though Wilson is almost 6 foot 4 inches? Yeah, I listened to what he said. He and I basically agree about the sequence of shots. Arm shots, chest, head shots.

The autopsy shows that the wound to the forearm and upper arm have a slight upward angle. You realize that when you shoot a gun the gun actually isn't being shot from the top of the head, right? The gun shot would easily have a slight upward angle if the officer is firing toward somebody who is slightly taller. He wouldn't be standing erect against a wall to have his height measured by his mom next to the door jamb. He would have his legs parted effectively making him shorter and his gun would be lower still. A guy measuring 6'4" might have his gun pointed at the suspect at a height of around 5'4 inches when all is said and done.

His other beef is with the supposed distance between Wilson and Brown when he shot him being 30 feet. If you want to cite a source for that distance, please do so. I thought i heard Wilson may have said that as well...but I don't recall whether that was confirmed.

He's not on your side! Lol! keep trying to manipulate what he said! The 6'0 blurb actually makes it worse!! He's 6'4" So his arms were definitely upright! Bullets entered at an upward trajectory into his arms.

It makes it worse and yet I mentioned it because you fail to grasp the fact that it doesn't negate Wilson's story. I included it because he is supposedly so well versed and knowledgeable about this subject that he doesn't know Darren Wilson's height and yet he is supposedly more credible?

Patrick...how tall are you? Let's assume you are 6 feet tall. Now pretend to fire a gun at a target. When you aim the gun, are you still 6 feet tall? No. And when you aim that imaginary gun and measure the distance between it and the ground...is it at 6 feet? No. It is probably resting about 5 feet off the ground. Do you disagree with this?

Sorry, I don't understand this part. Are you saying that the gun is not 6 feet from the ground, or that the person firing it is no longer 6 feet tall? If it's the latter, then why is that? I guess I don't get it.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm not going to rehash 200 pages of this thread, but you've made some incredibly insensitive comments. No secret there. It's too late to rehabilitate yourself now. I don't need to waste my breath any longer. You know what you are. You have to live with it.

 

[SIDA!]

I'm not going to rehash 200 pages of this thread, but you've made some incredibly insensitive comments. No secret there. It's too late to rehabilitate yourself now. I don't need to waste my breath any longer. You know what you are. You have to live with it.

Yawn. I sleep just fine.

You don't need to rehash 200 pages. I made my first post in this thread after the grand jury announcement. So, that kind of narrows it down for you. Feel free to move along. I would venture to guess that 80% of your posts in this thread are one or two sentences filled with baseless claims and unsubstantiated accusations.

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, people's height is measured from the ground to the top of their head while standing erect. When you position yourself to fire a weapon, your height is effectively lowered since you legs are spaced apart in a firing stance. Each person has a different stance so it will vary. My point is...no matter who you are...when you fire a gun your effective height will me less than the height you have listed on your license or whatever.

Secondarily, when you fire a gun, the gun is positioned lower on your body. Usually about chest high or so. Therefore, the height of the gun from the ground will be considerably lower than you listed height. If you are shooting at a person, it isn't very difficult to have a slightly upward trajectory.

Third, if you look at any uncensored images of Brown lying prone in the street, you will see that the blood from the head wounds flowed in the direction he fell and towards Officer Wilson. There was quite a bit of blood and it flowed pretty far from his body. Sorry to be graphic, but it didn't pool around his head or body. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that not only is Brown slightly taller than Wilson, that Wilson's gun was significantly lower and that Brown was on a street with a slight incline upward and away from Wilson. This effectively made Brown even "taller" and would produce a shot that traveled upward with some slight angle. Imagine standing on an exaggerated slope for illustration purposes and point a gun at an object 20 feet from you. Your gun will have a slight upward tilt and produce a slight upward trajectory that will vary in accordance to the degree of this slope.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, people's height is measured from the ground to the top of their head while standing erect. When you position yourself to fire a weapon, your height is effectively lowered since you legs are spaced apart in a firing stance. Each person has a different stance so it will vary. My point is...no matter who you are...when you fire a gun your effective height will me less than the height you have listed on your license or whatever.

Secondarily, when you fire a gun, the gun is positioned lower on your body. Usually about chest high or so. Therefore, the height of the gun from the ground will be considerably lower than you listed height. If you are shooting at a person, it isn't very difficult to have a slightly upward trajectory.

Third, if you look at any uncensored images of Brown lying prone in the street, you will see that the blood from the head wounds flowed in the direction he fell and towards Officer Wilson. There was quite a bit of blood and it flowed pretty far from his body. Sorry to be graphic, but it didn't pool around his head or body. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that not only is Brown slightly taller than Wilson, that Wilson's gun was significantly lower and that Brown was on a street with a slight incline upward and away from Wilson. This effectively made Brown even "taller" and would produce a shot that traveled upward with some slight angle. Imagine standing on an exaggerated slope for illustration purposes and point a gun at an object 20 feet from you. Your gun will have a slight upward tilt and produce a slight upward trajectory that will vary in accordance to the degree of this slope.

Good explanation thx

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Tim, people's height is measured from the ground to the top of their head while standing erect. When you position yourself to fire a weapon, your height is effectively lowered since you legs are spaced apart in a firing stance. Each person has a different stance so it will vary. My point is...no matter who you are...when you fire a gun your effective height will me less than the height you have listed on your license or whatever.

Secondarily, when you fire a gun, the gun is positioned lower on your body. Usually about chest high or so. Therefore, the height of the gun from the ground will be considerably lower than you listed height. If you are shooting at a person, it isn't very difficult to have a slightly upward trajectory.

Third, if you look at any uncensored images of Brown lying prone in the street, you will see that the blood from the head wounds flowed in the direction he fell and towards Officer Wilson. There was quite a bit of blood and it flowed pretty far from his body. Sorry to be graphic, but it didn't pool around his head or body. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that not only is Brown slightly taller than Wilson, that Wilson's gun was significantly lower and that Brown was on a street with a slight incline upward and away from Wilson. This effectively made Brown even "taller" and would produce a shot that traveled upward with some slight angle. Imagine standing on an exaggerated slope for illustration purposes and point a gun at an object 20 feet from you. Your gun will have a slight upward tilt and produce a slight upward trajectory that will vary in accordance to the degree of this slope.

Like I said, you know who/what you are. You just can't admit it.

 

[Todd Andrews]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years later—we would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the anger—we apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

As much as I agree that black youths are treated differently by the police and this is a real problem- your analogy is absurd and repulsive. Comparing American police officers to Nazis? Really?

I'm embarrassed for you that you would choose to quote such a terrible and offensive argument.

You obviously dont understand what an analogy is, or what "comparing" is, and probably didnt even read the article to understand the quote (not mine) in context.

 

[Todd Andrews]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

Kids and young adults too? I cant think of a single instance I have ever heard anything like that. Not even jokingly.

I wont buy some makes of German cars because they were Hitler mobiles. A lot of people still hate both Germans and Germany because of WWII and the holocaust, and many are not Jewish.

 

[Henry Ford]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

As much as I agree that black youths are treated differently by the police and this is a real problem- your analogy is absurd and repulsive. Comparing American police officers to Nazis? Really?I'm embarrassed for you that you would choose to quote such a terrible and offensive argument.

I know, right? The Third Reich lasted, what, 13 years?

 

[jonessed]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

Kids and young adults too? I cant think of a single instance I have ever heard anything like that. Not even jokingly.

I wont buy some makes of German cars because they were Hitler mobiles. A lot of people still hate both Germans and Germany because of WWII and the holocaust, and many are not Jewish.

You hate Germany? How old are you?

 

[njherdfan]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

Kids and young adults too? I cant think of a single instance I have ever heard anything like that. Not even jokingly.

I wont buy some makes of German cars because they were Hitler mobiles. A lot of people still hate both Germans and Germany because of WWII and the holocaust, and many are not Jewish.

You hate Germany? How old are you?

I don't hate Germany (I'm 25) and I've visited there, but my (completely secular) parents and grandparents would never go, and that is not at all uncommon for people their age. Here's an interesting article about an American Jew who started playing for Germany's national hockey team 2 years ago. There was a ton of backlash.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

Kids and young adults too? I cant think of a single instance I have ever heard anything like that. Not even jokingly.

I wont buy some makes of German cars because they were Hitler mobiles. A lot of people still hate both Germans and Germany because of WWII and the holocaust, and many are not Jewish.

This is a lie about Hitler. He actually drove Italian cars exclusively, because German-made cars just weren't sexy enough.

 

[Doug B]

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. .

Boy, you can say that again.

One thing I've had reinforced from this thread is that objective truth doesn't exist. That suggests that many social problems plaguing humanity are completely intractable. Reptile-brain tribalism -- and all issues of individual identity that spring from it -- will ultimately control mankind forever.

 

[timschochet]

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. .

Boy, you can say that again.

One thing I've had reinforced from this thread is that objective truth doesn't exist. That suggests that many social problems plaguing humanity are completely intractable. Reptile-brain tribalism -- and all issues of individual identity that spring from it -- will ultimately control mankind forever.

it's always been that way. Read A Passage To India by EM Forster. Or read Rashoman, the Japanese play. Objective truth in human affairs doesn't exist.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Tim, just to clear, as I may have missed it in this lengthy discussion, but you are in fact pretty much hung up on one aspect of this case at this point:

Did Michael Brown charge the officer?

And to go one step further, you do not believe that any evidence has been presented that proves Brown charged Wilson, correct?

You believe that some witnesses say he did charge and others say he didn't and outside of witness testimony...that is all we have to go on, correct?

That's a pretty good summary of my views, yes.

But I don't want to debate it any further. If you plan on demonstrating how I am wrong, go ahead, but don't expect a response. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

1. First and foremost, we know that blood spatter was found 21 feet from the body of Michael Brown opposite Wilson. Assuming Brown was bleeding profusely from the wound to the hand, Brown walked, staggered or charged in some fashion 21 feet toward the officer. At a minimum. It is possible he went beyond that last blood spatter area before returning. There is no way that this is normal or acceptable behavior. There is absolutely no one who can chime in here and say that Brown was obeying any orders whatsoever.

An officer is going to tell you to get your ####### ### down on the ground, etc. Does it prove he charged Officer Wilson, no? Does it prove that he moved in some fashion toward Officer Wilson, yes. Do we honestly think he moved 21 feet or more toward an officer who has already fired shots at him without the officer screaming and yelling to get down, freeze, stop ,etc? Um..no. In fact, Wilson states that when Brown turns around after running away from the initial altercation at the vehicle...he commands Brown to get on the ground. So we know that Brown managed to advance 21 feet toward an officer who we all know was telling him to stop or get down on the ground. Does anyone dispute any aspect of this?

2. Wilson testifies that he did not shoot at Brown as he ran away and there is no physical evidence or wound that suggests Brown was hit in the back of his body. Does anyone dispute this?

3. At this point in time...Brown only has a wound to the hand. The idea that he was stumbling back toward the officer or took a step and collapsed from a wound or whatever story folks want to believe is not substantiated by any evidence. Brown is shot in the hand, runs away and stops. He then turns around with only a wound to his hand. Is my understanding of this clear?

4. The distance separating Wilson from Brown at this point in time is unknown. Wilson testifies that he stopped running after Brown when Brown stopped running. Wilson should have been able to get out of his vehicle within a second or two of Brown running off and presumably would not have been very far behind Brown who I think we can all agree isn't in the best of shape in terms of cardio.

5. Brown ignores the command to get down on the ground and continues toward Wilson where he then fires a series of shots. There is a pause and a second round of shots. This is confirmed on the audio submitted by a witness into evidence. We know there are two volleys. We can assume that some hit and at least one or more hit Brown. Wilson testifies that he saw Brown's body flinch during the first volley. We do know that obviously the head shot and the forehead shot did not occur in the first volley.

6. In the second volley, Wilson fired an unknown number of shots, but we know with certainty that the forehead and dome shot occurred in this volley. During this volley Wilson testifies that he began to backpedal. At this point in time Brown has closed the distance between the two of them to about 10 feet. Brown goes down in a heap face first.

7. If you look at photo's of Brown laying the street, he is prone. His body fell face first as if he were running and then just crumpled and did a faceplant into the street. If he was standing still or just staggering toward the officer, his body would not have fallen that way.

8. The trajectory of the forehead and top of the head shot is consistent with Wilson's testimony. There isn't another scenario anyone can present that would physically make sense to explain these wounds and their trajectory. Were Brown standing with this hands up, Wilson would need a ladder and have to shoot downward. If Brown had dropped to his knees, Wilson would have had to then walk up and shoot Brown from point blank range execution style. It is understood that the dome shot was the final shot. There isn't a scenario whereby Wilson could have shot Brown in the forehead at that trajectory where the bullet exits the right jaw, then show a different part of the body and then returned and shot Brown in the top of the head. These two shots have to have occurred in succession.

9. What probably happened is that Brown gets shot in the arm in the first volley which is consistent with Wilson's testimony that he was focusing on Brown's right hand/arm which went to his waist before he charged/moved toward Wilson. The coroner's report says that one bullet enters the dorsal forearm and exits on the interior side of the forearm. The exact reverse of the palms out/surrender pose. In fact, the trajectory of this wound is consistent with a runners arm movement as they pump their right and left arm back and forth during a jog or sprint.

10. Then on the second volley Brown probably gets hit in the chest, then the forehead and then the top of the head. If Brown is only stumbling/staggering/walking toward Wilson, how would Brown's body reached an angle whereby the bullet entering the forehead and exiting the jaw and the dome shot occur? It is basically a physical impossibility. Some people have previously argued in this thread that he was shot and bending down. Thus, arguing that he could have just been standing there, bent over, not advancing and thus providing the angle/trajectory needed. Brown did not receive an mortal wounds or shots that would even lead one to suggest that Brown was bent over. He had only received shots to the arm. If you want to argue that he was shot in the chest in the first volley...okay...but that was not a mortal wound either. Nothing that would cause Brown to be buckled over and providing Wilson with an opportunity to then execute him.

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

Excellent post and essentially ignored by those who disagree with you. It involves facts relating to ballistics, crime scene investigation, and the autopsy, yet they can't handle this and quickly brush it aside with ignorant commentary. Pretty much what I expect. And to those who keep talking about shooting in the legs etc., just give it up. That is ridiculous talk by someone who has no understanding about police tactics and protocol. You do NOT shoot at the extremities of an advancing hostile threat. Period. You shoot to stop the threat, and that is center of mass. Widely understood by anyone who has police training or common sense.

 

[tom22406]

New Black Panthers seem to be really nice.

ST. LOUIS - Two members of the New Black Panther Party arrested last week on federal weapons charges were planning to bomb the Gateway Arch, and to kill St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch and Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson, sources tell NewsChannel 5.

The men, identified in an indictment as Brandon Baldwin and Olajuwon Davis, are said to have given false information and bought guns from the Cabellas in Hazelwood, Missouri.

Baldwin and Davis were arrested November 20.

Sources tell NewsChannel 5 that Baldwin and Davis were being investigated for months. The suspects were aggressively pursuing explosive devices.

Chief Jackson said he "was warned about a plot" by federal agents, but was "not given a lot of detail."

NewsChannel 5 will have more information on this story as it becomes available.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/ferguson/2014/11/26/sources-plot-to-bomb-arch-kill-mcculloch/19565733/

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You're gonna believe what you want, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's the way humans are wired. .

Boy, you can say that again.

One thing I've had reinforced from this thread is that objective truth doesn't exist. That suggests that many social problems plaguing humanity are completely intractable. Reptile-brain tribalism -- and all issues of individual identity that spring from it -- will ultimately control mankind forever.

it's always been that way. Read A Passage To India by EM Forster. Or read Rashoman, the Japanese play. Objective truth in human affairs doesn't exist.

If it doesn't then what is that thing around which we all dance?