Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Yes. I think that statistic and the other ones you cited are directly tied to socioeconomic conditions, which are directly tied to our history and ongoing discrimination. 100%.

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

No matter what he says you are just going to turn around and blame that on our history and ongoing discrimination, so what's the point?

Because I'm open to the fact that I might be missing some other variable that could change my opinion on these issues and maybe be can point that out to me? Because maybe he's missing a connection between some other external factor he cites and historical/ongoing discrimination that I can point out to him?

What's the point of you interjecting?

 

[Sweet J]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Yes. I think that statistic and the other ones you cited are directly tied to socioeconomic conditions, which are directly tied to our history and ongoing discrimination. 100%.

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

No matter what he says you are just going to turn around and blame that on our history and ongoing discrimination, so what's the point?

He's already blamed it on the history of ongoing discrimination. And he has asked mattyl to come up with a different explaination.

And look: It is a perfectly reasonable reason to say: "I don't know, but I don't thinkt it is solely discrimination nor do I think it has anything to do with "innate qualities" of different races." I'm suspecting that's how he feels. I don't know why he wouldn't just say so if that is how they feel.

 

[TobiasFunke]

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

I have, but that's not the answer you want to hear. These things lead to themselves. When you don't get a high school diploma, you're going to end up in a lower socioeconomic situation. Why did you not graduate from high school? Was it due to being in a single parent household? Were you in a single parent household because you were born out of wedlock?

All of these these things are connected - and yes some of it can and should be attributed back to our country's unfortunate history and even to the racism/discrimination of today - but it's not 100% - even Pinkydapimp agrees with that. Some of it can be attributed to the media and it's propensity to involve race wherever it can, only adding to tensions and existing issues. There are other factors as well.

Sorry, but "these things lead to themselves" is not an answer. It's an empty, meaningless statement. As you say, some of this can be traced back to history and current/recent discrimination ... but if it's not 100%, then what else?

The media is definitely an interesting answer. I'm not sure I buy it- everyone loves to scapegoat "the media" even though media coverage is mostly just a reflection of us and our attitudes. But I definitely want to give it some thought. What else?

 

[General Tso]

It took 226 pages but we're finally at the point where we are talking about the key issues. I agree with Cowboy and mattyl that it's not racism, but the underlying issues. One of the reasons I hate the race card so much is that it masks the true underlying issues. Let's not focus on the breakdown of the family in poor neighborhoods. Let's just attribute all the problems that come from it to racism. It misses the mark, it angers whites, and prolongs the problems.

As I mentioned earlier I do a lot of volunteer work with recovering drug addicts. Black or white, the issues and the fixes are all the same. And race very rarely (if ever) enters into it.

 

[Sweet J]

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

I have, but that's not the answer you want to hear. These things lead to themselves. When you don't get a high school diploma, you're going to end up in a lower socioeconomic situation. Why did you not graduate from high school? Was it due to being in a single parent household? Were you in a single parent household because you were born out of wedlock?

All of these these things are connected - and yes some of it can and should be attributed back to our country's unfortunate history and even to the racism/discrimination of today - but it's not 100% - even Pinkydapimp agrees with that. Some of it can be attributed to the media and it's propensity to involve race wherever it can, only adding to tensions and existing issues. There are other factors as well.

I hear you really, really trying to have a fair and open conversation. But you are so afraid of a "gotcha" moment that you are having a hard time backing off some things that you are holding onto that are unnecessary.

Saying "these lead to themselves" is kind of silly. It sounds like: "people don't graduate high school because they are poor. And people are poor because they don't graduate from high school."

Sure, let's assume those those two things are true. But they are equally true for whites and blacks and indians and hispanics.

But why are a higher percentage of black than white both poor and have a lower graduation rate? It's got to be more than "those two things caused eachother," because they could have "caused eachother" for both black and white. Something had to be different.

So that is the key, and what sociologists (and lawmakers) have been struggling with for decades: What is leading to the staggeringly upsetting "facts" related to black america vs. white america? "Why do blacks, as a whole, go to prison more; why do a higher precentage live in poverty? Why is the divorce rate higher? Why is the level of "intact families" lower? Why are they more likely to kill eachother? Why are they less likely to go to college or finish high school?" There are dozen's of aweful stats, and no real answers. It's ok not to have the answers. Our best and brightest haven't found the answers.

I agree that all those things are connected. And I'm curious about the causes. And the solutions. I'm sure there are dozens of each.

But I'm not sure it's that related to my real interest here in this thread, which is: Too many police are shooting too many unarmed citizens, and in particular too many unarmed black citizens. I can't definitively say it's a result of racism. It's probably a result of a lot of different factors. But I would guess that issues involving race are an important set of factors at play here.

 

[jonessed]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Yes. I think that statistic and the other ones you cited are directly tied to socioeconomic conditions, which are directly tied to our history and ongoing discrimination. 100%.

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

No matter what he says you are just going to turn around and blame that on our history and ongoing discrimination, so what's the point?

He's already blamed it on the history of ongoing discrimination. And he has asked mattyl to come up with a different explaination.

And look: It is a perfectly reasonable reason to say: "I don't know, but I don't thinkt it is solely discrimination nor do I think it has anything to do with "innate qualities" of different races." I'm suspecting that's how he feels. I don't know why he wouldn't just say so if that is how they feel.

The rapid breakdown of the family unit in black neighborhoods is a recent trend. One would have to make a compelling argument as to why the long history of oppression somehow didn't lead to broken families until the 90's.

 

[matttyl]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

 

[matttyl]

Because I'm open to the fact that I might be missing some other variable that could change my opinion on these issues and maybe be can point that out to me? Because maybe he's missing a connection between some other external factor he cites and historical/ongoing discrimination that I can point out to him?

Honest curiosity here - have you ever had a thought or belief so entrenched as the one you are currently defending, to which you've had your option change thanks to threads here?

 

[kentric]

Because I'm open to the fact that I might be missing some other variable that could change my opinion on these issues and maybe be can point that out to me? Because maybe he's missing a connection between some other external factor he cites and historical/ongoing discrimination that I can point out to him?

Honest curiosity here - have you ever had a thought or belief so entrenched as the one you are currently defending, to which you've had your option change thanks to threads here?

Tim's opinion has changed in a thread. Sometimes 3 or 4 times.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

Actually yes, we should ask those questions. What are the underlying causes leading to this. because we cant fix a problem without addressing the underlying causes. Whatever they may be.

 

[humpback]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Yes. I think that statistic and the other ones you cited are directly tied to socioeconomic conditions, which are directly tied to our history and ongoing discrimination. 100%.

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

No matter what he says you are just going to turn around and blame that on our history and ongoing discrimination, so what's the point?

Because I'm open to the fact that I might be missing some other variable that could change my opinion on these issues and maybe be can point that out to me? Because maybe he's missing a connection between some other external factor he cites and historical/ongoing discrimination that I can point out to him?

What's the point of you interjecting?

Yeah, I'm sure it's because you're so open minded.

I didn't realize this thread was your personal train wreck. Carry on.

 

[General Tso]

"When you know you don't know, that's when you know"

-Confucius

 

[TobiasFunke]

Because I'm open to the fact that I might be missing some other variable that could change my opinion on these issues and maybe be can point that out to me? Because maybe he's missing a connection between some other external factor he cites and historical/ongoing discrimination that I can point out to him?

Honest curiosity here - have you ever had a thought or belief so entrenched as the one you are currently defending, to which you've had your option change thanks to threads here?

Totally changed? Not that I can remember. But I learn stuff around the edges and gain respect for opposing viewpoints all the time. Like for example your comments on media treatment of race- I at least have something to think about there, and I also understand a little better why conservatives get so mad about it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

Imagine you're gonna time a million people in a one mile run. Half of them are gonna wear red shirts, and half blue shirts. The people with the blue shirts have to run the first 100 yards carrying a 10 pound weight in each hand.

If you ask me why the people in the blue shirts, on average, had much slower times for the mile run than the people in the red shirts, I'm gonna point point out the 20 pounds of weights. But if you point out one particular person in a blue shirt and ask why they were one of the very last people to finish the mile, I'm probably gonna say "because they're slow as ####." Two totally different concepts.

 

[matttyl]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

Actually yes, we should ask those questions. What are the underlying causes leading to this. because we cant fix a problem without addressing the underlying causes. Whatever they may be.

Thank you for using the term - "underlying causes" and acknowledging that there is more than one.

I'm not sure why Tobias would think an insurance agent would have the answers to this question. I surely don't. If I did, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. What's even more surprising, or possibly upsetting, is that he truly believes there is one and only one answer. I find him to be one of the smarter, and honestly thought provoking posters on these boards - but at least in this situation he's coming across as extremely close minded on this issue with absolutely no wiggle room. Even you, pinky, have already acknowledged there are multiple causes (and that they aren't all just "history and discrimination"), just as I have acknowledged that those are indeed factors in the equation.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

Actually yes, we should ask those questions. What are the underlying causes leading to this. because we cant fix a problem without addressing the underlying causes. Whatever they may be.

I would say white people are more crazy in the head than black people.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

Actually yes, we should ask those questions. What are the underlying causes leading to this. because we cant fix a problem without addressing the underlying causes. Whatever they may be.

Thank you for using the term - "underlying causes" and acknowledging that there is more than one.

I'm not sure why Tobias would think an insurance agent would have the answers to this question. I surely don't. If I did, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. What's even more surprising, or possibly upsetting, is that he truly believes there is one and only one answer. I find him to be one of the smarter, and honestly thought provoking posters on these boards - but at least in this situation he's coming across as extremely close minded on this issue with absolutely no wiggle room. Even you, pinky, have already acknowledged there are multiple causes (and that they aren't all just "history and discrimination"), just as I have acknowledged that those are indeed factors in the equation.

I appreciate the kinder parts of this post.

As for the rest- I think there are a lot of factors that contribute to the disparities in data you've pointed out, but I think they can all be traced to historical or current discrimination in its various forms. That doesn't mean there's a direct line. For example, you point to single parents. I'm sure that's a factor that, strictly speaking, is not directly tied to historical or present discrimination. But I can draw a causal connection through poverty/educational disparities that are a product of that discrimination. What I'm asking is whether there's factors that don't have that connection. That's why I liked your "media" answer, because whether it's true or not at least it fits the bill.

 

[matttyl]

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

First off, why does every one who has an opinion that is different from yours "confused"?

Secondly, if we had more individual responsibility, we wouldn't have so many societal/large scale issues.

 

[Sweet J]

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

First off, why does every one who has an opinion that is different from yours "confused"?

Secondly, if we had more individual responsibility, we wouldn't have so many societal/large scale issues.

Of course. But that's really an overly simplistic way of looking at this. Let me know if you want further explanation of why I think so.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

Actually yes, we should ask those questions. What are the underlying causes leading to this. because we cant fix a problem without addressing the underlying causes. Whatever they may be.

Thank you for using the term - "underlying causes" and acknowledging that there is more than one.

I'm not sure why Tobias would think an insurance agent would have the answers to this question. I surely don't. If I did, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. What's even more surprising, or possibly upsetting, is that he truly believes there is one and only one answer. I find him to be one of the smarter, and honestly thought provoking posters on these boards - but at least in this situation he's coming across as extremely close minded on this issue with absolutely no wiggle room. Even you, pinky, have already acknowledged there are multiple causes (and that they aren't all just "history and discrimination"), just as I have acknowledged that those are indeed factors in the equation.

I appreciate the kinder parts of this post.

As for the rest- I think there are a lot of factors that contribute to the disparities in data you've pointed out, but I think they can all be traced to historical or current discrimination in its various forms. That doesn't mean there's a direct line. For example, you point to single parents. I'm sure that's a factor that, strictly speaking, is not directly tied to historical or present discrimination. But I can draw a causal connection through poverty/educational disparities that are a product of that discrimination. What I'm asking is whether there's factors that don't have that connection. That's why I liked your "media" answer, because whether it's true or not at least it fits the bill.

Tobias I don't believe that there is any answer that would satisfy you. How do you make the connection of black men fathering children with numerous women and not supporting said children to discrimination?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

First off, why does every one who has an opinion that is different from yours "confused"?

Secondly, if we had more individual responsibility, we wouldn't have so many societal/large scale issues.

I don't think that.

Maybe, but that doesn't change anything. There's always gonna be people finishing at the end of that mile run, whether they blame themselves or the weights.

Anyway, I gotta do some actual paid work and mix in some college basketball this afternoon. Really enjoyed the back and forth with matttyl and others.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.
You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

Ok, yeah, that makes much more sense. I was thinking a "schedule 1" drug would be the lowest rung on the ladder and it would go up from there. Like I said, I wouldn't know as I've never really needed to.

And yes I do hope for personal responsibility on the individual, I think we all should - and that we should hold the person responsible for their actions. No one forces you to get married or not, or to have children out of wedlock or in wedlock, or to have children well before you're personally/emotionally/financially ready to do so. And if you do, no one forces you to leave that situation. Those are choices you make, and that you should live with - with either good or bad repercussions and consequences for those actions.

You bring up the DUI vs drug and the propensity of one race to have committed the crime - how about "rampage killers" where multiple people are killed (like 10+). For the most part, they are white (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris (Coumbine), Adam Lanza (Newtown elementary), James Holmes (Aurora) - only major exception is a non black, but Korean student at VA Tech). Crimes where mothers kill their own children are also mostly white. Crimes of assassination, even attempted assassination, of politicians are nearly 100% white. Now should I ask you if there is something entrenched into the body of a white person that makes them commit those crimes at a far higher rate? How about we all hold ourselves to be accountable for our own actions, and we can be judged the the content of our character?

Actually yes, we should ask those questions. What are the underlying causes leading to this. because we cant fix a problem without addressing the underlying causes. Whatever they may be.

Thank you for using the term - "underlying causes" and acknowledging that there is more than one.

I'm not sure why Tobias would think an insurance agent would have the answers to this question. I surely don't. If I did, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. What's even more surprising, or possibly upsetting, is that he truly believes there is one and only one answer. I find him to be one of the smarter, and honestly thought provoking posters on these boards - but at least in this situation he's coming across as extremely close minded on this issue with absolutely no wiggle room. Even you, pinky, have already acknowledged there are multiple causes (and that they aren't all just "history and discrimination"), just as I have acknowledged that those are indeed factors in the equation.

I appreciate the kinder parts of this post.

As for the rest- I think there are a lot of factors that contribute to the disparities in data you've pointed out, but I think they can all be traced to historical or current discrimination in its various forms. That doesn't mean there's a direct line. For example, you point to single parents. I'm sure that's a factor that, strictly speaking, is not directly tied to historical or present discrimination. But I can draw a causal connection through poverty/educational disparities that are a product of that discrimination. What I'm asking is whether there's factors that don't have that connection. That's why I liked your "media" answer, because whether it's true or not at least it fits the bill.

I do think media plays a role in all this as well. Because if we are talking about bias'. The sad fact is many people base what they know on a race on what they see in the media, especially if they don't normally interact with them. So if all they see are rap videos and looting on TV, its no shock that a police officer may react differently during an incident with blacks vs another race.

Regardless, how you fix that is for all of us(different races, socio-econimic levels, religions, perspectives, etc.) to be able to interact regularly so that people can judge based on actual interactions as opposed to what is shoved down our throat via the media. The more this happens, especially in real life, the better things will get for everyone. However it will take a while.

 

[matttyl]

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

First off, why does every one who has an opinion that is different from yours "confused"?

Secondly, if we had more individual responsibility, we wouldn't have so many societal/large scale issues.

Of course. But that's really an overly simplistic way of looking at this. Let me know if you want further explanation of why I think so.

Tobias apparently wants an over simplistic answer to his questions. I understand that my answer was extremely simplistic, but that just shows that these questions don't have simplistic answers like "it's 100% history and discrimination."

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

First off, why does every one who has an opinion that is different from yours "confused"?

Secondly, if we had more individual responsibility, we wouldn't have so many societal/large scale issues.

Of course. But that's really an overly simplistic way of looking at this. Let me know if you want further explanation of why I think so.

Tobias apparently wants an over simplistic answer to his questions. I understand that my answer was extremely simplistic, but that just shows that these questions don't have simplistic answers like "it's 100% history and discrimination."

I feel like you both are sort of in agreement. I dont think tobias is saying its all due to historical issues and racism. I think maybe the gap here is that tobias(and i) feel that many of the underlying issues that are being referenced can be traced back to the historical issues and racism(current and past).

 

[Yenrub]

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Here's a crazy idea....don't do drugs?

Terrible idea. Drugs are super fun.

Then understand the possible repercussions of those actions - don't just blame the system.

Yep and understand that the repercussions for those actions are likely to be much more severe if you are a minority

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think you are confusing individual responsibility with causes of societal/large scale issues.

First off, why does every one who has an opinion that is different from yours "confused"?

Secondly, if we had more individual responsibility, we wouldn't have so many societal/large scale issues.

Of course. But that's really an overly simplistic way of looking at this. Let me know if you want further explanation of why I think so.

Tobias apparently wants an over simplistic answer to his questions. I understand that my answer was extremely simplistic, but that just shows that these questions don't have simplistic answers like "it's 100% history and discrimination."

I feel like you both are sort of in agreement. I dont think tobias is saying its all due to historical issues and racism. I think maybe the gap here is that tobias(and i) feel that many of the underlying issues that are being referenced can be traced back to the historical issues and racism(current and past).

Bingo. The connection is clear and direct with some of those issues and less direct with others, but it's always there in my opinion. Except the media thing, which is why I found that idea so interesting.

 

[Clifford]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/philly-teens-murdered-married-dad-failed-robbery-cops-article-1.2156313

I'm posting this because the NYDN doesn't give any sort of racial identification in this case, whereas in their article about the UVA incident, there's a big racial component. Either race is important, or it isn't.

Good point. No question of whether this was racially motivated.

 

[Clifford]

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Here's a crazy idea....don't do drugs?

Terrible idea. Drugs are super fun.

Then understand the possible repercussions of those actions - don't just blame the system.

Yep and understand that the repercussions for those actions are likely to be much more severe if you are a minority

And understand the system is as smart as a square wheel made of stone. War on Drugs has to be the greatest failed policy since Jim Crow.

 

[matttyl]

I feel like you both are sort of in agreement. I dont think tobias is saying its all due to historical issues and racism. I think maybe the gap here is that tobias(and i) feel that many of the underlying issues that are being referenced can be traced back to the historical issues and racism(current and past).

He most certainly does, unless I misread "Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination" (post 11272).

100% doesn't leave any wiggle room, and I feel is a very dangerous attitude to have. Why? Because our history, deplorable as it may be, will never go away. Thus it can always be used as an excuse, and will be. If these things are entrenched in us due to our history, and we can not change our history, we will never be able to grow and improve as a society if it's the one and only reason.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I feel like you both are sort of in agreement. I dont think tobias is saying its all due to historical issues and racism. I think maybe the gap here is that tobias(and i) feel that many of the underlying issues that are being referenced can be traced back to the historical issues and racism(current and past).

He most certainly does, unless I misread "Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination" (post 11272).

100% doesn't leave any wiggle room, and I feel is a very dangerous attitude to have. Why? Because our history, deplorable as it may be, will never go away. Thus it can always be used as an excuse, and will be. If these things are entrenched in us due to our history, and we can not change our history, we will never be able to grow and improve as a society if it's the one and only reason.

True we cant change our history. However, we can learn from it(if we acknowledge it), and it also does provide context and even direction regarding how to begin to fix some of these issues.

 

[matttyl]

More on the UVA situation...and possibly an example of the role I think the media can sometimes play in these situations.

"Student leaders at the University of Virginia are hosting a public discussion on campus racial relations Friday after a black student was violently arrested by a group of white police officers this week."

"ABC representatives, University police and Albemarle County law enforcement are slated to take part in the discussion Friday, which student leaders hope will address long simmering racial tensions on campus."

Had no idea that this situation had anything at all to do with "campus racial relations." The incident wasn't on campus, and didn't involve only people of the campus. Also, it says the the student was violently arrested by a group of white officers - while we still don't know that a single one of them were violent towards him, much less the entire group of them. And now there is "long simmering racial tensions on campus"?! Since when? Maybe I'm just blissfully unaware, but I have family members there now, other family members that have lived in C-ville for decades, and I regularly visit the school and attend games on campus but had no idea that any of that was present. The only thing that may have lead to that was the Hannah Graham situation - white female student who was kidnapped/raped/killed by the non-student black man - another situation likely fueled by the media into a "racial situation" that wasn't there to begin with.

For those saying that it would have never happened to a white guy (and this is funny) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKB2YKmHq_c

Now that didn't "go viral" and obviously couldn't have any racial component to it - but a very similar if not identical situation happened at UVA and boom - "campus racial relations" and "long standing racial tensions"......smh.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

More on the UVA situation...and possibly an example of the role I think the media can sometimes play in these situations.

"Student leaders at the University of Virginia are hosting a public discussion on campus racial relations Friday after a black student was violently arrested by a group of white police officers this week."

"ABC representatives, University police and Albemarle County law enforcement are slated to take part in the discussion Friday, which student leaders hope will address long simmering racial tensions on campus."

Had no idea that this situation had anything at all to do with "campus racial relations." The incident wasn't on campus, and didn't involve only people of the campus. Also, it says the the student was violently arrested by a group of white officers - while we still don't know that a single one of them were violent towards him, much less the entire group of them. And now there is "long simmering racial tensions on campus"?! Since when? Maybe I'm just blissfully unaware, but I have family members there now, other family members that have lived in C-ville for decades, and I regularly visit the school and attend games on campus but had no idea that any of that was present. The only thing that may have lead to that was the Hannah Graham situation - white female student who was kidnapped/raped/killed by the non-student black man - another situation likely fueled by the media into a "racial situation" that wasn't there to begin with.

For those saying that it would have never happened to a white guy (and this is funny) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKB2YKmHq_c

Now that didn't "go viral" and obviously couldn't have any racial component to it - but a very similar if not identical situation happened at UVA and boom - "campus racial relations" and "long standing racial tensions"......smh.

i don't think people maintain it wouldn't ever happen to a white guy. I just think its that it happens far more frequently with black people.

 

[matttyl]

More on the UVA situation...and possibly an example of the role I think the media can sometimes play in these situations.

"Student leaders at the University of Virginia are hosting a public discussion on campus racial relations Friday after a black student was violently arrested by a group of white police officers this week."

"ABC representatives, University police and Albemarle County law enforcement are slated to take part in the discussion Friday, which student leaders hope will address long simmering racial tensions on campus."

Had no idea that this situation had anything at all to do with "campus racial relations." The incident wasn't on campus, and didn't involve only people of the campus. Also, it says the the student was violently arrested by a group of white officers - while we still don't know that a single one of them were violent towards him, much less the entire group of them. And now there is "long simmering racial tensions on campus"?! Since when? Maybe I'm just blissfully unaware, but I have family members there now, other family members that have lived in C-ville for decades, and I regularly visit the school and attend games on campus but had no idea that any of that was present. The only thing that may have lead to that was the Hannah Graham situation - white female student who was kidnapped/raped/killed by the non-student black man - another situation likely fueled by the media into a "racial situation" that wasn't there to begin with.

For those saying that it would have never happened to a white guy (and this is funny) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKB2YKmHq_c

Now that didn't "go viral" and obviously couldn't have any racial component to it - but a very similar if not identical situation happened at UVA and boom - "campus racial relations" and "long standing racial tensions"......smh.

i don't think people maintain it wouldn't ever happen to a white guy. I just think its that it happens far more frequently with black people.

And each and every time it does it IMMEDIATELY goes to racism. In this case by both the victim and by the media who actually created "long standing racial tensions" that I don't think were there in the first place and used an off campus incident to discuss "campus racial relations."

 

[PinkydaPimp]

More on the UVA situation...and possibly an example of the role I think the media can sometimes play in these situations.

"Student leaders at the University of Virginia are hosting a public discussion on campus racial relations Friday after a black student was violently arrested by a group of white police officers this week."

"ABC representatives, University police and Albemarle County law enforcement are slated to take part in the discussion Friday, which student leaders hope will address long simmering racial tensions on campus."

Had no idea that this situation had anything at all to do with "campus racial relations." The incident wasn't on campus, and didn't involve only people of the campus. Also, it says the the student was violently arrested by a group of white officers - while we still don't know that a single one of them were violent towards him, much less the entire group of them. And now there is "long simmering racial tensions on campus"?! Since when? Maybe I'm just blissfully unaware, but I have family members there now, other family members that have lived in C-ville for decades, and I regularly visit the school and attend games on campus but had no idea that any of that was present. The only thing that may have lead to that was the Hannah Graham situation - white female student who was kidnapped/raped/killed by the non-student black man - another situation likely fueled by the media into a "racial situation" that wasn't there to begin with.

For those saying that it would have never happened to a white guy (and this is funny) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKB2YKmHq_c

Now that didn't "go viral" and obviously couldn't have any racial component to it - but a very similar if not identical situation happened at UVA and boom - "campus racial relations" and "long standing racial tensions"......smh.

i don't think people maintain it wouldn't ever happen to a white guy. I just think its that it happens far more frequently with black people.

And each and every time it does it IMMEDIATELY goes to racism. In this case by both the victim and by the media who actually created "long standing racial tensions" that I don't think were there in the first place and used an off campus incident to discuss "campus racial relations."

Maybe the media is too quick to sensationalize it, but your also awfully quick to assume there isn't racial tension or bias in play here. Just because you don't see if or experience doesn't mean its not there.

 

[Sweet J]

I feel like you both are sort of in agreement. I dont think tobias is saying its all due to historical issues and racism. I think maybe the gap here is that tobias(and i) feel that many of the underlying issues that are being referenced can be traced back to the historical issues and racism(current and past).

He most certainly does, unless I misread "Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination" (post 11272).

100% doesn't leave any wiggle room, and I feel is a very dangerous attitude to have. Why? Because our history, deplorable as it may be, will never go away. Thus it can always be used as an excuse, and will be. If these things are entrenched in us due to our history, and we can not change our history, we will never be able to grow and improve as a society if it's the one and only reason.

Look, this can be thought of a million different ways. The difficult thing here is that it's hard to have a discussion in three paragraph increments, which is the format we are forced into here.

Let me start with a completely different example as a way of how I (and possibly tobias) think about things in this particular situation.

Let's talk about women (black and white), and the role that they play in society, and men (black and white) and the role they play in society.

First, men: It is safe to say men, far and away, get arrested more than women for violent crime. Let's look at the causes why. Is it because men or more violent, or because of the way the police and the courts treat men differently than they treat women, or some sort of combination of both? (We may have differing opinions, but nobody's guard is up and its easier to discuss this without feeling like we are "giving in," but I digress).

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree. But then that begs the question: Are men more violent because they are intrinsically (regardless of environment) more violent than women, or because they are socialized that way, or some combination of the two, or some other completely separate reason. Fascinating stuff, and could be constructively debated for a while.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar. First, ask whether the stats show black men are more likely to be arrested than white men. Then, if so, ask why. And then, again, ask why we got to that particular place. And continue pulling at that string until we get closer to the root of the "why." This then, in theory, help us get to the "fix."

Tobias and you probably agree on a lot of the underlying statistics. And he may even agree with you on some of the "causes," (i.e., the breakdown of the black family, he may agree with you, is a root cause of low high school dropout rate, teen pregnancy rate, etc.).

But he is going another step and saying what's the cause of the breakdown of the black family. And if we can find a cause of that, what's the cause of that. And so on and so on. Ultimately, it sounds like he traces much of the issue to a fundamental and systematic mistreatment of the black population going back 200 years, and (this is important), still openly accepted and tolerated in this country as little as 40 years ago. He would say that, even if nobody was racist today, we still are dealing with the horrible effects of the past 100 years, and even things we as a country were doing in the 60s and 70s.

I get the impression that you really aren't interested in talking about that. I don't know why. Maybe you would see it as conceding too much. But if you don't give an inch there, is it so surprising that Tobias isn't interested in talking about the breakdown of the black family.

 

[matttyl]

Maybe the media is too quick to sensationalize it, but your also awfully quick to assume there isn't racial tension or bias in play here. Just because you don't see if or experience doesn't mean its not there.

See, right there - both you and the media already assume it is.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Maybe the media is too quick to sensationalize it, but your also awfully quick to assume there isn't racial tension or bias in play here. Just because you don't see if or experience doesn't mean its not there.

See, right there - both you and the media already assume it is.

I don't assume it is. Im just ok with opening up a conversation or investigation about it.

 

[matttyl]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

 

[matttyl]

Maybe the media is too quick to sensationalize it, but your also awfully quick to assume there isn't racial tension or bias in play here. Just because you don't see if or experience doesn't mean its not there.

See, right there - both you and the media already assume it is.

I don't assume it is. Im just ok with opening up a conversation or investigation about it.

Ok, so then the media immediately assumes it, and openly discusses it - and openly says it's been "long simmering".

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist.

This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Maybe the media is too quick to sensationalize it, but your also awfully quick to assume there isn't racial tension or bias in play here. Just because you don't see if or experience doesn't mean its not there.

See, right there - both you and the media already assume it is.

I don't assume it is. Im just ok with opening up a conversation or investigation about it.

Ok, so then the media immediately assumes it, and openly discusses it - and openly says it's been "long simmering".

the media is going to be the media. But maybe, just maybe it has been long simmering. If it has its better the community discuss it than ignore it until things get out of hand.

 

[matttyl]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist.

This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist.

This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

 

[Mr. Cross]

I feel so sorry for all you white people.

 

[matttyl]

the media is going to be the media. But maybe, just maybe it has been long simmering. If it has its better the community discuss it than ignore it until things get out of hand.

Ok, maybe it has been. Maybe. That doesn't mean that it absolutely has been, and this is yet another log for that fire. Now people are going to assume that is has been long simmering, and you're just reopening wounds that may have never been there in the first place. How are they going to mend the situation with that current undertone?

 

[PinkydaPimp]

the media is going to be the media. But maybe, just maybe it has been long simmering. If it has its better the community discuss it than ignore it until things get out of hand.

Ok, maybe it has been. Maybe. That doesn't mean that it absolutely has been, and this is yet another log for that fire. Now people are going to assume that is has been long simmering, and you're just reopening wounds that may have never been there in the first place. How are they going to mend the situation with that current undertone?

Sometimes you need to check and clean the wounds(if necessary) to get better. Otherwise you risk a serious infection.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I feel so sorry for all you white people.

 

[Sweet J]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist. This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

 

[Gawain]

My other problem with the UVA debacle (just like the Brown and Garner fiascoes), the proximate cause for all of the police interactions was an illegal act on the part of the injured party.

All this fuss should be focused on the poor guy who was shot when complying with officer demands to produce a drivers license.

Or the people that have been victimized by no-knock warrants.

Or the people who have lost everything due to civil forfeiture.

I truly believe that the vast majority of problems stem from the police department and the policies that have been enacted, instead of deep-seated racial beliefs. I think the color that matters most is green and that the poor buckra have it worse than middle class african-americans.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist. This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

These are tough discussions. But they have to happen to make progress. When i enter these threads part of me immediately regrets it and tries to ignore it. But i try to engage in the discussion because i think its important. Honestly, i think these should happen in communities everywhere. Maybe get some town halls together to have moderated discussions.