Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[EYLive]

Has black promiscuity been brought up? Is this a real thing or just a stereotype? Absent fathers is a predictable result.

 

[matttyl]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist. This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

That's exactly what I mean. If any politician, sports figure, TV personality, police officer, reporter, journalist....(on and on) happened to say what I said above, immediately the public would be asking for their firing or resignation. Even if it were phrased "I believe the cultural factors of the black population lead to more or less of this, which leads to more or less of that" - same situation. The conversation is totally toxic, no matter the race of the person trying to start it.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Think about this the next time you all think the police are to heavy- handed.

Officers killed in line of dutyThe number of law enforcement officers shot to death in the line of duty rose more than 50% last year, according to the Washington-based National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

Many of those shootings occurred during police interactions with suspects such as traffic stops, responses to disturbances or attempted arrests

 

[urbanhack]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist. This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

Maybe because many of the intrinsic differences we want to discuss about race, have more to do with socioeconomic status and class rather than race.

 

[Henry Ford]

I hear you really, really trying to have a fair and open conversation. But you are so afraid of a "gotcha" moment that you are having a hard time backing off some things that you are holding onto that are unnecessary.

Saying "these lead to themselves" is kind of silly. It sounds like: "people don't graduate high school because they are poor. And people are poor because they don't graduate from high school."

Sure, let's assume those those two things are true. But they are equally true for whites and blacks and indians and hispanics.

But why are a higher percentage of black than white both poor and have a lower graduation rate? It's got to be more than "those two things caused eachother," because they could have "caused eachother" for both black and white. Something had to be different.

So that is the key, and what sociologists (and lawmakers) have been struggling with for decades: What is leading to the staggeringly upsetting "facts" related to black america vs. white america? "Why do blacks, as a whole, go to prison more; why do a higher precentage live in poverty? Why is the divorce rate higher? Why is the level of "intact families" lower? Why are they more likely to kill eachother? Why are they less likely to go to college or finish high school?" There are dozen's of aweful stats, and no real answers. It's ok not to have the answers. Our best and brightest haven't found the answers.

I agree that all those things are connected. And I'm curious about the causes. And the solutions. I'm sure there are dozens of each.

But I'm not sure it's that related to my real interest here in this thread, which is: Too many police are shooting too many unarmed citizens, and in particular too many unarmed black citizens. I can't definitively say it's a result of racism. It's probably a result of a lot of different factors. But I would guess that issues involving race are an important set of factors at play here.

Could they? On a societal scale, given the history of the society we live in, could the same percentage of white families be poor as black, hispanic, and AmerIndian families? Do you believe that generational wealth and poverty are created/disappear on a massive scale that quickly?

If it helps the discussion, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964.

 

[Yenrub]

Think about this the next time you all think the police are to heavy- handed.

Officers killed in line of dutyThe number of law enforcement officers shot to death in the line of duty rose more than 50% last year, according to the Washington-based National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

Many of those shootings occurred during police interactions with suspects such as traffic stops, responses to disturbances or attempted arrests

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

 

[TobiasFunke]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

Similarly, if matttyl is saying that black people are more violent because of something "intrinsic" rather than because of external factors, then yeah, that's racist. Really, really racist. The kind of stuff that even 100 years ago people wouldn't say without first putting on a white hood to cloak their identity.

I don't think matttyl or SweetJ or anyone else here actually thinks those things, but just a heads-up that you all might want to be a little more careful with the word choice.

 

[matttyl]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

Similarly, if matttyl is saying that black people are more violent because of something "intrinsic" rather than because of external factors, then yeah, that's racist. Really, really racist. The kind of stuff that even 100 years ago people wouldn't say without first putting on a white hood to cloak their identity.

I don't think matttyl or SweetJ or anyone else here actually thinks those things, but just a heads-up that you all might want to be a little more careful with the word choice.

My point exactly. Even if the above statement wasn't meant to point to any intrinsic characteristic, it would still be seen as horribly racist in today's world. That's why these conversations simply can not happen in any public forum. We're here simply talking about the idea of possibly having this type of conversation openly, and we're being told to be "a little more careful with the word choice."

 

[Gawain]

Think about this the next time you all think the police are to heavy- handed.

Officers killed in line of dutyThe number of law enforcement officers shot to death in the line of duty rose more than 50% last year, according to the Washington-based National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

Many of those shootings occurred during police interactions with suspects such as traffic stops, responses to disturbances or attempted arrests

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

Suspect fled in a vehicle, disobeyed lawful commands, required a stun gun to subdue and continued to refuse to comply.

Probably not a "good shooting," but I'd have a lot of trouble convicting her.

Drug use and fleeing don't deserve to get someone shot, but it sure raises the likelihood.

Much like Brown and Garner, the deceased isn't as guilt free as the initial headlines suggest.

 

[Gawain]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

Similarly, if matttyl is saying that black people are more violent because of something "intrinsic" rather than because of external factors, then yeah, that's racist. Really, really racist. The kind of stuff that even 100 years ago people wouldn't say without first putting on a white hood to cloak their identity.

I don't think matttyl or SweetJ or anyone else here actually thinks those things, but just a heads-up that you all might want to be a little more careful with the word choice.

Bull-pucky. Is it racist to suggest that African Americans have an intrinsic disposition towards sickle-cell, that Tay-Sachs is intrinsic to Ashkenazi Jews or red hair to the Scotch/Irish?

The jump to immediately smear any sort of generalization with the racism brush hurts the discussion.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

Similarly, if matttyl is saying that black people are more violent because of something "intrinsic" rather than because of external factors, then yeah, that's racist. Really, really racist. The kind of stuff that even 100 years ago people wouldn't say without first putting on a white hood to cloak their identity.

I don't think matttyl or SweetJ or anyone else here actually thinks those things, but just a heads-up that you all might want to be a little more careful with the word choice.

Bull-pucky. Is it racist to suggest that African Americans have an intrinsic disposition towards sickle-cell, that Tay-Sachs is intrinsic to Ashkenazi Jews or red hair to the Scotch/Irish?

The jump to immediately smear any sort of generalization with the racism brush hurts the discussion.

See the bolded text in my post.

 

[matttyl]

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy was white for the mere fact that his race wasn't specifically mentioned in the headline (and there hasn't been any large scale national news of it).

 

[jonessed]

I happen to think it is because men are more violent, which leads to more arrests. Or more precisely, they commit more violent acts (which leads to more arrests). Let's pretend you agree.

So why can't we look at the black-white distinction similar.

Because there is absolutely, positively no way to do that without immediately being thought of as racist.

See i disagree. We have been having a good conversation in here and i dont believe anyone thinks you are a racist. This discourse has to happen imo to help make things better for all of us.

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

Maybe because many of the intrinsic differences we want to discuss about race, have more to do with socioeconomic status and class rather than race.

Or culture. There are definitely differences in ethnic cultures even within the same socioeconomic band.

 

[matttyl]

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy was white for the mere fact that his race wasn't specifically mentioned in the headline (and there hasn't been any large scale national news of it).

Huh, no one called me out on that. Turns out he is white, but it took me going through about 10 online articles about this situation before coming across a picture of him. This story is nearly 2 months old now, and this guy was shot in the back, twice! If he had been black, and only got a cut on his head, pictures and videos would be everywhere and this would be national news the within 48 hours. Anyone disagree with that? Tobias, I give you exhibit A on my "media" thought from last week.

 

[General Tso]

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy was white for the mere fact that his race wasn't specifically mentioned in the headline (and there hasn't been any large scale national news of it).

Huh, no one called me out on that. Turns out he is white, but it took me going through about 10 online articles about this situation before coming across a picture of him. This story is nearly 2 months old now, and this guy was shot in the back, twice! If he had been black, and only got a cut on his head, pictures and videos would be everywhere and this would be national news the within 48 hours. Anyone disagree with that? Tobias, I give you exhibit A on my "media" thought from last week.

Everything in this country is seen through the lens of color, which makes everyone racist. It's all just a matter of degree.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy was white for the mere fact that his race wasn't specifically mentioned in the headline (and there hasn't been any large scale national news of it).

Huh, no one called me out on that. Turns out he is white, but it took me going through about 10 online articles about this situation before coming across a picture of him. This story is nearly 2 months old now, and this guy was shot in the back, twice! If he had been black, and only got a cut on his head, pictures and videos would be everywhere and this would be national news the within 48 hours. Anyone disagree with that? Tobias, I give you exhibit A on my "media" thought from last week.

Exhibit A

 

[Doug B]

Suspect fled in a vehicle, disobeyed lawful commands, required a stun gun to subdue and continued to refuse to comply.

Probably not a "good shooting," but I'd have a lot of trouble convicting her.

Drug use and fleeing don't deserve to get someone shot, but it sure raises the likelihood.

Much like Brown and Garner, the deceased isn't as guilt free as the initial headlines suggest.

Was looking at this case more closely after it was first posted here.

Seems to me the only way to prevent these kinds of shootings (maybe) is to somehow get the police to accept a FAR greater risk of getting surreptitiously shot by perpetrators. You'd have to have a rule something like "Can't shoot a perp unless they actually have a gun in full view and pointed right at you".

Gun drawn, but pointed in air? Can't shoot.

Looks like a gun hidden under a jacket? Can't shioot.

Perp going for waistband? Miles away from being able to shoot.

Now then. Are those kinds of rules of engagement realistic for police to abide by? I don't know.

 

[TobiasFunke]

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy was white for the mere fact that his race wasn't specifically mentioned in the headline (and there hasn't been any large scale national news of it).

Huh, no one called me out on that. Turns out he is white, but it took me going through about 10 online articles about this situation before coming across a picture of him. This story is nearly 2 months old now, and this guy was shot in the back, twice! If he had been black, and only got a cut on his head, pictures and videos would be everywhere and this would be national news the within 48 hours. Anyone disagree with that? Tobias, I give you exhibit A on my "media" thought from last week.

Thanks.

For what it's worth, I think it's not just about the media but also the community's reaction to the incident. The UVa incident got headlines and became about race because the UVa community made it that way, right or wrong. You can "blame" them for that if you want, but then you'd have to also blame the central Pennsylvania community for apparently tolerating this #### for six weeks.

If word of the incident had spread quickly through the community and there had been immediate outrage and protests (there wasn't- I just googled "protests harrisburg shooting" and the first result I got was a facebook page about a protest of two pit bulls being shot by the police), you can be sure this story wouldn't have gotten buried for six weeks regardless of the race of the parties involved. It's not just about the media making editorial decisions, although it's fair to question their role too.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It's a very dangerous job

Stories like this one don't help with public perception though

Officer charged with killing unarmed driver lying facedown - http://news.yahoo.com/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-165424205.html

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this guy was white for the mere fact that his race wasn't specifically mentioned in the headline (and there hasn't been any large scale national news of it).

Huh, no one called me out on that. Turns out he is white, but it took me going through about 10 online articles about this situation before coming across a picture of him. This story is nearly 2 months old now, and this guy was shot in the back, twice! If he had been black, and only got a cut on his head, pictures and videos would be everywhere and this would be national news the within 48 hours. Anyone disagree with that? Tobias, I give you exhibit A on my "media" thought from last week.

Thanks.

For what it's worth, I think it's not just about the media but also the community's reaction to the incident. The UVa incident got headlines and became about race because the UVa community made it that way, right or wrong. You can "blame" them for that if you want, but then you'd have to also blame the central Pennsylvania community for apparently tolerating this #### for six weeks.

If word of the incident had spread quickly through the community and there had been immediate outrage and protests (there wasn't- I just googled "protests harrisburg shooting" and the first result I got was a facebook page about a protest of two pit bulls being shot by the police), you can be sure this story wouldn't have gotten buried for six weeks regardless of the race of the parties involved. It's not just about the media making editorial decisions, although it's fair to question their role too.

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

 

[matttyl]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

Really? Can't think of any reasons why black people might not trust law enforcement?

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

The difference is perspective. You do not come from a community where the police are basically at war with you and your family/friends. Where they profile you. And are often violent towards you. Thats why your perspective towards law enforcement is that they are always fair. Thats simply not the case in many of these places, hence the much different perspective of law enforcement. You might not think twice about pulling over. You might not think twice about wearing a hoodie while driving..... Many folks in these communities do.

 

[matttyl]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

You realize I was just joking Tobias with my comment, right?

 

[urbanhack]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

The difference is perspective.

Lot's of people here lack this.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

You realize I was just joking Tobias with my comment, right?

I liked it

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

Really? Can't think of any reasons why black people might not trust law enforcement?

Well I don't think you are born distrusting police. You would hope any parent regardless of color is teaching their children that the police are the good guys and if you ever need help you reach out to a police officer.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

Really? Can't think of any reasons why black people might not trust law enforcement?

Well I don't think you are born distrusting police. You would hope any parent regardless of color is teaching their children that the police are the good guys and if you ever need help you reach out to a police officer.

but what if the parents dont trust the police? And their parents dont either?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I think the difference is IMO, the white community has less sympathy for criminals than the black community. All he had to do was pull over and listen to instructions. He took it to the next level and paid the ultimate price.

His attorneys comment is bull####: "Mr. Kassick is now dead as a result of a traffic stop, a routine traffic stop," said one of the family's attorneys, Christopher Slusser.

Routine would be if he pulled over immediately and did what he was instructed.

I hope you don't mean for that to be an intrinsic difference, otherwise that's the definition of racism. You should choose your words more carefully.

I mean it seems more often than not they side with the person of their community who has committed the crime, rather than law enforcement. They are reluctant to cooperate with law enforcement. I don't know the reasons why

Really? Can't think of any reasons why black people might not trust law enforcement?

Well I don't think you are born distrusting police. You would hope any parent regardless of color is teaching their children that the police are the good guys and if you ever need help you reach out to a police officer.

but what if the parents dont trust the police? And their parents dont either?

See now there is a problem that has a solution that would go a long way towards helping solve the the big problem.

 

[Doug B]

See now there is a problem that has a solution that would go a long way towards helping solve the the big problem.

The problem, as Pinky described it, looks completely intractable. Two sides believing wholeheartedly that the other is in the wrong and must adjust.

 

[jonessed]

See now there is a problem that has a solution that would go a long way towards helping solve the the big problem.

The problem, as Pinky described it, looks completely intractable. Two sides believing wholeheartedly that the other is in the wrong and must adjust.

I don't trust the police, but I don't teach my kids not to trust them. Teaching them to not trust authority would lead to all kinds of problems in school and in the community.

 

[matttyl]

but what if the parents dont trust the police? And their parents dont either?

Did they all listen to N.W.A.? Yeah, that song went a long way to mend fences.....

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Maybe everybody needs to start looking forward instead of back...I know public agencies are required to go through ethics and diversity training, and are held accountable for their actions. What can the community provide toward their end? They just can't sit still and expect change without making changes themselves.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

See now there is a problem that has a solution that would go a long way towards helping solve the the big problem.

The problem, as Pinky described it, looks completely intractable. Two sides believing wholeheartedly that the other is in the wrong and must adjust.

I don't trust the police, but I don't teach my kids not to trust them. Teaching them to not trust authority would lead to all kinds of problems in school and in the community.

There is a difference between teaching kids not to trust police, and kids learning not to trust them, based on their interactions and based on how they see their parents and other peers react to the police. These kids have parents and great grand parents that were around in the 60s and were beaten and tortured by police. This isnt distant history.

I don't think parents of cops(or lets say the police academy) teach them to not trust minorities, or people in poor communities, but nevertheless, those bias' are present.

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Maybe everybody needs to start looking forward instead of back...I know public agencies are required to go through ethics and diversity training, and are held accountable for their actions. What can the community provide toward their end? They just can't sit still and expect change without making changes themselves.

I agree. Everyone needs to be a part of it for things to change. One group is not responsible here. It will take time and participation from everyone. However, we do have to at least understand the past in order to move forward. Ignoring the past will not get us there.

 

[Doug B]

Maybe everybody needs to start looking forward instead of back ... They just can't sit still and expect change without making changes themselves.

Still think some kind of societal "forgeting" has to take place before any kind of progress on this front can be made. Has to get to the point where most all don't have direct recollection of police issues -- and neither do their parents. The only "eff the police" types left would be very old folks.

I don't know how this happens, though. When similar things have happened in Amefican society (e.g. "forgetting" about the lessons of the Great Depression), it has taken place organically.

 

[Doug B]

Ignoring the past will not get us there.

It would help a lot, IMHO, but actual human beings can't really pull it off.

 

[matttyl]

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

They don't make the news. Again, goes back to media.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

They don't make the news. Again, goes back to media.

I agree the media plays a part. But if people from the different groups are actually interacting with each other than they don't have to go by what they see in the media.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

You think it's racist to state that there are intrinsic/genetic non-physical differences between races? Cause I'm pretty sure there are differences. Doesn't make one better than another, just different.

 

[General Tso]

I hear what Pinky is saying. Hard to expect historical memories of horrible racism in this country to go away overnight. Heck, there are people still alive who experienced Jim Crow laws firsthand. Trust is earned, and it's understandable that it's still a work in process.

That being said, I do think that the problems between blacks and police go well beyond a lack of trust based on historical racism. I'm probably going to get scorched for saying this, but I think it has a lot to do with the breakdown of order and discipline in the homes. No male role models in the homes = less discipline and less respect for authority in general. I do some tutoring at work for a local inner city school and it's striking the lack of discipline and self control I see. It's so sad. You just know that these kids have no chance ever reaching their potential with such attitudes and behaviors ingrained at a young age. And this has nothing to do with an oppressive white authority, either. The entire school is black, including most of the teachers.

That is the real issue. And in my opinion it's an issue that should be the central focus within the black community right now. I was hopeful that the million man march and other movements promoting personal accountability and responsibility would gain momentum over the years, but they seem to have petered out in favor of the "hands up don't shoot" protests. And that's very unfortunate if you ask me. Not a lot of good is going to come out of fighting cops.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I hear what Pinky is saying. Hard to expect historical memories of horrible racism in this country to go away overnight. Heck, there are people still alive who experienced Jim Crow laws firsthand. Trust is earned, and it's understandable that it's still a work in process.

That being said, I do think that the problems between blacks and police go well beyond a lack of trust based on historical racism. I'm probably going to get scorched for saying this, but I think it has a lot to do with the breakdown of order and discipline in the homes. No male role models in the homes = less discipline and less respect for authority in general. I do some tutoring at work for a local inner city school and it's striking the lack of discipline and self control I see. It's so sad. You just know that these kids have no chance ever reaching their potential with such attitudes and behaviors ingrained at a young age. And this has nothing to do with an oppressive white authority, either. The entire school is black, including most of the teachers.

That is the real issue. And in my opinion it's an issue that should be the central focus within the black community right now. I was hopeful that the million man march and other movements promoting personal accountability and responsibility would gain momentum over the years, but they seem to have petered out in favor of the "hands up don't shoot" protests. And that's very unfortunate if you ask me. Not a lot of good is going to come out of fighting cops.

If, you truly think that is the root of the issues in the black community. Your next question should be why is this the case? Because it cant be fixed unless we figure out how we got to this point.

I do agree it is a problem. However, i think there are other issues at play and this is more of a symptom of those issues. I think that the kids growing up without fathers issue is more of a socio economic problem at the core and due to many other factors affecting black communities it is more prevalent in black poor communities when compared to other poor communities.

 

[UniAlias]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

You think it's racist to state that there are intrinsic/genetic non-physical differences between races? Cause I'm pretty sure there are differences. Doesn't make one better than another, just different.

Genuinely curious, what are some of those non-physical intrinsic differences?

I can't think of anything, but I'm pretty uneducated on the topic.

 

[urbanhack]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.

But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

You think it's racist to state that there are intrinsic/genetic non-physical differences between races? Cause I'm pretty sure there are differences. Doesn't make one better than another, just different.

For the most part, yes...examples???

 

[Todd Andrews]

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

They don't make the news. Again, goes back to media.

Dumbest post of the year, or super dumbest?

 

[matttyl]

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

They don't make the news. Again, goes back to media.

Dumbest post of the year, or super dumbest?

You disagree? Seriously? It's the way the media works - they run the story that is going to get the biggest reaction, likely biggest emotional reaction. The cop doing his job and doing wonderful things in their local community generally doesn't make national news. A cop shooting "an unarmed black kid" in Ferguson - overnight his name is known nationwide, thanks to the media. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just the way it is - but if that's the way it is people hear more stories of the bad cops than the good ones.

The same is true in the NFL. What have the biggest NFL stories been these last few years (on a national new level)? Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, Aaron Hernandez, Mike Vick. Not to the same national level, but you could argue Josh Gordon and Greg Hardy. How many stores have reached those levels of publicity of NFL players doing great things for their communities or mankind in general?

 

[TobiasFunke]

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

They don't make the news. Again, goes back to media.

Dumbest post of the year, or super dumbest?

You disagree? Seriously? It's the way the media works - they run the story that is going to get the biggest reaction, likely biggest emotional reaction. The cop doing his job and doing wonderful things in their local community generally doesn't make national news. A cop shooting "an unarmed black kid" in Ferguson - overnight his name is known nationwide, thanks to the media. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just the way it is - but if that's the way it is people hear more stories of the bad cops than the good ones.

The same is true in the NFL. What have the biggest NFL stories been these last few years (on a national new level)? Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, Aaron Hernandez, Mike Vick. Not to the same national level, but you could argue Josh Gordon and Greg Hardy. How many stores have reached those levels of publicity of NFL players doing great things for their communities or mankind in general?

False. The media reacted after the community, not before it. You have cause and effect completely backwards here.

Need proof? Brown was shot around noon on August 9. This thread didn't even start until August 11, and the first post links to a media report of the looting, not the shooting incident. Almost all the posts on the first couple pages are also about the looting, not the incident itself.

The media responded to the community's reaction to the incident, not vice-versa.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

You think it's racist to state that there are intrinsic/genetic non-physical differences between races? Cause I'm pretty sure there are differences. Doesn't make one better than another, just different.

Genuinely curious, what are some of those non-physical intrinsic differences?

I can't think of anything, but I'm pretty uneducated on the topic.

Time preferences, tribalism, trust

 

[TobiasFunke]

What I mean is, if I said "I happen to think it is because blacks are more violent, which leads to more arrests", immediately red flags of racism will be raised.

Says who?

Mattyl has a very good point: it is very very hard to talk about intrinsic differences between the races without being labeled as a racist from the outset. for a variety of reasons that are difficult to discuss from my phone. I happen to disagree that there are indeed intrinsic differences -- I think most (maybe all) of the apparent differences we see can be attributed to cultural factors.But I for one will try to keep from passing judgment. I've failed a few times in this thread already. But whatever.

I don't think you guys are using "intrinsic" correctly. Because if you are, then proposing that there are any differences other than physical ones would be pretty much the dictionary definition of racism. "Intrinsic" means internal, innate, belonging to something's essential nature.

You think it's racist to state that there are intrinsic/genetic non-physical differences between races? Cause I'm pretty sure there are differences. Doesn't make one better than another, just different.

Genuinely curious, what are some of those non-physical intrinsic differences?

I can't think of anything, but I'm pretty uneducated on the topic.

Time preferences, tribalism, trust

I picked the first one and googled it, this sentence appeared in the first result, a George Mason study on the subject:

differences in time preferences, however, cannot be taken as innate

 

[matttyl]

So you have black people that dont trust police. And you have police that are more forceful with blacks because they dont trust them or are scared of them. Whats the solution? Well, you said that they arent born with those views. So it starts with these groups actually interacting. The police should be in the communities and the schools interacting with the people, getting to know them so that they arent just viewed as crooked cops and can see that there are good ones out there. This would also help the police to view these people as more than the violent animals many of them seem to think they are. And this isnt just for relationships between people and police. This goes for all different groups, races and religions.

They don't make the news. Again, goes back to media.

Dumbest post of the year, or super dumbest?

You disagree? Seriously? It's the way the media works - they run the story that is going to get the biggest reaction, likely biggest emotional reaction. The cop doing his job and doing wonderful things in their local community generally doesn't make national news. A cop shooting "an unarmed black kid" in Ferguson - overnight his name is known nationwide, thanks to the media. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just the way it is - but if that's the way it is people hear more stories of the bad cops than the good ones.

The same is true in the NFL. What have the biggest NFL stories been these last few years (on a national new level)? Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, Aaron Hernandez, Mike Vick. Not to the same national level, but you could argue Josh Gordon and Greg Hardy. How many stores have reached those levels of publicity of NFL players doing great things for their communities or mankind in general?

False. The media reacted after the community, not before it. You have cause and effect completely backwards here.

Need proof? Brown was shot around noon on August 9. This thread didn't even start until August 11, and the first post links to a media report of the looting, not the shooting incident. Almost all the posts on the first couple pages are also about the looting, not the incident itself.

The media responded to the community's reaction to the incident, not vice-versa.

My statement wasn't false at all. Due to the media (even if the media's reporting on the reaction from the community), everyone knew the name of the cop.