Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[msommer]

First off the robbery is insignificant to me. I don't care what kind of guy Brown was.

Ridiculous statement. The robbery could have had a great deal to do with motivation and actions. We'll find out soon enough.

Again, I disagree. Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed. Unless you believe that Brown was charging at Wilson, there is no other justification for this act- I don't care if Brown was a mass murderer, a child rapist or whatever. I don't care if he spent the last 10 minutes prior pummeling Wilson to the ground, breaking his arm, etc. He's 30 feet away at the time the shots are fired, and he's unarmed. So he can't be a threat, unless he's charging at Wilson.So once again, that means that in order to justify the shooting, we have to believe that Wilson would be willing to charge at a policeman firing bullets at him, like George Pickett at Gettysburg. There is NO prior action by Brown that we know of, not the robbery, not hitting the policeman earlier, that would make him being willing to rush into death any more plausible. So Christo and others can laugh at me all you want, but I atill say the robbery is irrelevant. EVERYTHING is irrelevant that doesn't either prove Brown was charging, or prove that Wilson had some other plausible reason for shooting him from 30 feet away. That's the heart of the matter.

So you've concluded that Wilson decided in the heat of the moment to do something irrational, but you can't imagine Brown deciding in the heat of the moment to do something irrational. How convenient.

Not convenient, but consider the two acts of irrationality and tell me which one is more likely. Wilson has a gun in his hand. Brown is unarmed. Is it more likely that the armed guy uses his gun, or that the unarmed guy charges into bullets?

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

 

[[icon]]

Secondly, you're assuming Brown was running away to escape - but he only got 10-12 yards away. How long does that take running for a 6'4" 18 year old? 5 seconds?

What....This kid runs a 25-30 second 40yd dash?

A 6'4" 18yo should be able to cover 10yds in 2 seconds. Max.

 

[financewonk]

As for me, right now I strongly believe that Wilson committed the act of murder by shooting at an unarmed man from a distance of 30 feet. If I learn new facts, such as that the distance was actually 5 or 10 feet, then I'm going to change my mind once again (because from a short distance apart it's plausible that Wilson could have reasonably considered any sudden movement by Brown to be a threat.)

You seem to place a lot of importance on the distance between Wilson and Brown. However, if Brown did viciously beat Wilson as has been alleged, then any movements outside of complete surrender could have been perceived as being extremely threatening and induce a significant amount of fear. If Brown did disregard Wilson's orders, made threatening statements, and continued to advance towards Wilson, then perhaps that's justification enough, legally at least. So it might not necessary that Brown bum rushed him, or that they were within, say, 10 feet of each other.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

can you post the link to the original blog. I don't recall the name of it. it was a conservative blog.

I posted the full video on YT above.

do you remember the original blog? Id like to see that again

I'd be glad to look for it, it's probably in the thread. It wasn't a well known site.

if you can find it... if not no worries.

Is this it?

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

looks like it thanks!!

they link back to this site: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/08/15/exceptional-catch-the-jj-witness-video-eye-witness-audio-of-mike-brown-shooting-sharing-brown-doubled-back-toward-police/

The people talking are not clear that anyone was running towards the police.

Did you listen at 7:38-42? - At 7:42 "running toward the police."

(Of course you have to hone in over the screaming lady (who might be the poor mother, not sure)).

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Secondly, you're assuming Brown was running away to escape - but he only got 10-12 yards away. How long does that take running for a 6'4" 18 year old? 5 seconds?

What....This kid runs a 25-30 second 40yd dash?

A 6'4" 18yo should be able to cover 10yds in 2 seconds. Max.

Ha, ok, you're right, I was trying to figure that out based on Brandin Cooks 100 time and then giving him a lot of leeway for being a 300 pounder. Epic fail.

 

[Courtjester]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who just robbed a convenience store and attacked a cop instead of the cop?

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to a cop who's going in front of a grand jury for shooting someone instead of the dead guy?

I've seen proof of the dead guy committing a crime. I have not seen the same of the cop.

Is it legal to shoot at an unarmed person that's running away?

No, it isn't but that has nothing to do with this case. So let's move on.

 

[matttyl]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who just robbed a convenience store and attacked a cop instead of the cop?

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to a cop who's going in front of a grand jury for shooting someone instead of the dead guy?

I've seen proof of the dead guy committing a crime. I have not seen the same of the cop.

Are you willing to accept said proof may exist?

Sure it could. As could a whole lot more video proof of the dead guy committing other (potentially violent) crimes. What's your point? He asked why I would give the benefit of the doubt to the cop instead of the guy who I've seen committing a crime. I gave my honest answer. In general, I think cops are good people - sure there are some that aren't. In general, I think people that I see committing robberies on video not good people - of course there are some that are just stealing to feed their family or for some other possibly morally justifiable reason. Absolutely nothing racial about any of it - meaning I'd feel the exact same if it were a black police officer and a white guy caught on video robbing a place.

 

[Christo]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

But tim will latch onto that single "fact" like a dog with a bone until proven wrong.

yes I will. Show me evidence that they were closer and I will change my mind about this. The 30 feet is the key to my entire thought process.

So you are going to make a factual claim by the friend of the victim who's now changed his story the centerpiece of you entire thought process.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Secondly, you're assuming Brown was running away to escape - but he only got 10-12 yards away. How long does that take running for a 6'4" 18 year old? 5 seconds?

What....This kid runs a 25-30 second 40yd dash?

A 6'4" 18yo should be able to cover 10yds in 2 seconds. Max.

Tell you what though, if it was 2 seconds, that's pretty much a continuation of the fight in the car. Brown's not even thinking at that point, he's just tackling the cop again.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Didn't he have a bullet graze wound on his back or back of the arm? Thought I read that.

No

Forensic pathologist Shawn Parcells, who assisted former New York City chief medical examiner Dr. Michael Baden during the private autopsy, said a bullet grazed Brown's right arm. He said the wound indicates Brown may have had his back to the shooter, or he could have been facing the shooter with his hands above his head or in a defensive position across his chest or face.

It doesn't say he was grazed in the back but seems to leave the possibility open

 

[matttyl]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who just robbed a convenience store and attacked a cop instead of the cop?

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to a cop who's going in front of a grand jury for shooting someone instead of the dead guy?

I've seen proof of the dead guy committing a crime. I have not seen the same of the cop.

Is it legal to shoot at an unarmed person that's running away?

Short answer - very possibly.

Is that what happened? Got proof? We don't know what happened other than one guy shot another guy - possibly justifiably, possibly not. He asked why I give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. I gave my answer. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to a police officer before I give it to a person I've seen on video committing a crime (two if you count assault on the store owner) ~15 minutes before the shooting. Could that be wrong to do, sure it could - but I think he was asking about gut feelings and initial benefit of doubt given what we know.

 

[msommer]

The injury to Wilson's face makes it more likely, at least to me, that he committed a crime here.

My likely scenario: Wilson stops Brown and Johnson. A scuffle occurs. Brown hits Wilson in the face, causing the injury. The two kids take off running. Wilson fires his gun. The first shot either misses or wings Brown in the arm. Brown turns around, and either raises his arms in surrender or does not, just turns around. (Not sure what happened to Johnson at this point.)

And here is where the crime is committed by Wilson: in fear or rage or both, Wilson does not ask Brown to surrender. He does not instruct Brown to lie down on the ground. Instead, he fires his remaining bullets at Wilson. And that's murder.

There's probably no way to prove it, but that's what I think probably happened.

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who just robbed a convenience store and attacked a cop instead of the cop?

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to a cop who's going in front of a grand jury for shooting someone instead of the dead guy?

I've seen proof of the dead guy committing a crime. I have not seen the same of the cop.

Are you willing to accept said proof may exist?

Sure it could. As could a whole lot more video proof of the dead guy committing other (potentially violent) crimes. What's your point? He asked why I would give the benefit of the doubt to the cop instead of the guy who I've seen committing a crime. I gave my honest answer. In general, I think cops are good people - sure there are some that aren't. In general, I think people that I see committing robberies on video not good people - of course there are some that are just stealing to feed their family or for some other possibly morally justifiable reason. Absolutely nothing racial about any of it - meaning I'd feel the exact same if it were a black police officer and a white guy caught on video robbing a place.

I was just wondering if I should lump you in with jim11 and greggity or the timbaiters

 

[matttyl]

Has their been a good explanation for the bullets to the arm? I find it unlikely that the cop was able to hit the arm as many times as he did, if the arms were raised, but at the same time, I would have expected multiple-entries for a single shot if he was running - assuming the arm would be bent like anyone who was running hard would have them.

So, I guess, neither story makes sense to me right now.

Honestly, a broken orbital bone (if that story is true). If that story is true, I'm going to assume it was the left eye. That's the side of the face of a driver which faces the window, and the side of the face that would be hit by a right handed assailant.

Now with both eyes open, point a finger (as it it were a gun) toward a particular object. I'm pointing toward the light switch on the opposite wall. Do it quickly, without thinking. Now close your left eye (as it it were hurt). You'll notice that your finger is now pointing just a bit left of where you thought it was - as you're only seeing it out of your right eye (the good one). If you're shooting slightly to the left, you're going to be hitting a target coming at you on it's right side. I think he was aiming at "center mass" but was shooting slightly to his left due to his eye (again, if that story is true) thus hitting Brown in his right arm when Brown was facing him.

now we need to know if the cop was right or left eye dominant.

In my example, it wouldn't matter - assuming in the heat of the moment Wilson doesn't close one eye to shoot.

 

[matttyl]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

Didn't Johnson also say that Brown was shot in the back, or at least while running away - which the autopsy dismissed. I can pretty much forgive him for not mentioning the robbery - but not mentioning it along with telling his side of the shooting which the autopsy dismissed pretty much makes me think that anything he says is false.

how many missed shots were there?

We don't yet know that (add another thing to the list). Being that we do know that 6 shots hit Brown, and that all the reports I've seen say they heard "at least 5 shots", I'm going to guess not many. Has anyone said they have heard 8+ shots?

 

[Fennis]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

Didn't Johnson also say that Brown was shot in the back, or at least while running away - which the autopsy dismissed. I can pretty much forgive him for not mentioning the robbery - but not mentioning it along with telling his side of the shooting which the autopsy dismissed pretty much makes me think that anything he says is false.

how many missed shots were there?

We don't yet know that (add another thing to the list). Being that we do know that 6 shots hit Brown, and that all the reports I've seen say they heard "at least 5 shots", I'm going to guess not many. Has anyone said they have heard 8+ shots?

Dorian Johnson said Brown was shot once at close range, once as he ran away (which looking at the autopsy drawing, could be the shot in the hand or forearm) and that the officer shot 7 more times after Brown turned around to surrender. Of course, I don't think its unreasonable for a witness to miscount how many shots fired in that situation.

 

[msommer]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

Didn't Johnson also say that Brown was shot in the back, or at least while running away - which the autopsy dismissed. I can pretty much forgive him for not mentioning the robbery - but not mentioning it along with telling his side of the shooting which the autopsy dismissed pretty much makes me think that anything he says is false.

how many missed shots were there?

We don't yet know that (add another thing to the list). Being that we do know that 6 shots hit Brown, and that all the reports I've seen say they heard "at least 5 shots", I'm going to guess not many. Has anyone said they have heard 8+ shots?

The police chief said "more than two but not a lot more" and he ought to know!

 

[matttyl]

Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to a cop who's going in front of a grand jury for shooting someone instead of the dead guy?

I've seen proof of the dead guy committing a crime. I have not seen the same of the cop.

Are you willing to accept said proof may exist?

Sure it could. As could a whole lot more video proof of the dead guy committing other (potentially violent) crimes. What's your point? He asked why I would give the benefit of the doubt to the cop instead of the guy who I've seen committing a crime. I gave my honest answer. In general, I think cops are good people - sure there are some that aren't. In general, I think people that I see committing robberies on video not good people - of course there are some that are just stealing to feed their family or for some other possibly morally justifiable reason. Absolutely nothing racial about any of it - meaning I'd feel the exact same if it were a black police officer and a white guy caught on video robbing a place.

I was just wondering if I should lump you in with jim11 and greggity or the timbaiters

Henry Ford asked a question about who you would give the benefit of the doubt to in this situation. My honest initial reaction to the question coming from him was the first thread that he and I had a "disagreement" about a situation, one that actually has a lot of ties to this current situation in fact. It was a thread about the Marshall Coulter shooting by Merritt Landry. My initial reaction to it was to side with the shooter. HF's initial reaction (I believe, it's been a while) was the opposite. You can look back into that situation if you want to see who may have been more right.

 

[Politician Spock]

First off the robbery is insignificant to me. I don't care what kind of guy Brown was.

Ridiculous statement. The robbery could have had a great deal to do with motivation and actions. We'll find out soon enough.

Again, I disagree. Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed. Unless you believe that Brown was charging at Wilson, there is no other justification for this act- I don't care if Brown was a mass murderer, a child rapist or whatever. I don't care if he spent the last 10 minutes prior pummeling Wilson to the ground, breaking his arm, etc. He's 30 feet away at the time the shots are fired, and he's unarmed. So he can't be a threat, unless he's charging at Wilson.So once again, that means that in order to justify the shooting, we have to believe that Wilson would be willing to charge at a policeman firing bullets at him, like George Pickett at Gettysburg. There is NO prior action by Brown that we know of, not the robbery, not hitting the policeman earlier, that would make him being willing to rush into death any more plausible. So Christo and others can laugh at me all you want, but I atill say the robbery is irrelevant. EVERYTHING is irrelevant that doesn't either prove Brown was charging, or prove that Wilson had some other plausible reason for shooting him from 30 feet away. That's the heart of the matter.

So you've concluded that Wilson decided in the heat of the moment to do something irrational, but you can't imagine Brown deciding in the heat of the moment to do something irrational. How convenient.

Not convenient, but consider the two acts of irrationality and tell me which one is more likely. Wilson has a gun in his hand. Brown is unarmed. Is it more likely that the armed guy uses his gun, or that the unarmed guy charges into bullets?

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

 

[msommer]

First off the robbery is insignificant to me. I don't care what kind of guy Brown was.

Ridiculous statement. The robbery could have had a great deal to do with motivation and actions. We'll find out soon enough.

Again, I disagree. Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed. Unless you believe that Brown was charging at Wilson, there is no other justification for this act- I don't care if Brown was a mass murderer, a child rapist or whatever. I don't care if he spent the last 10 minutes prior pummeling Wilson to the ground, breaking his arm, etc. He's 30 feet away at the time the shots are fired, and he's unarmed. So he can't be a threat, unless he's charging at Wilson.So once again, that means that in order to justify the shooting, we have to believe that Wilson would be willing to charge at a policeman firing bullets at him, like George Pickett at Gettysburg. There is NO prior action by Brown that we know of, not the robbery, not hitting the policeman earlier, that would make him being willing to rush into death any more plausible. So Christo and others can laugh at me all you want, but I atill say the robbery is irrelevant. EVERYTHING is irrelevant that doesn't either prove Brown was charging, or prove that Wilson had some other plausible reason for shooting him from 30 feet away. That's the heart of the matter.

So you've concluded that Wilson decided in the heat of the moment to do something irrational, but you can't imagine Brown deciding in the heat of the moment to do something irrational. How convenient.

Not convenient, but consider the two acts of irrationality and tell me which one is more likely. Wilson has a gun in his hand. Brown is unarmed. Is it more likely that the armed guy uses his gun, or that the unarmed guy charges into bullets?

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

 

[KCitons]

Video from a livestream last night. Just a cop pointing an assault rifle at journalists and saying "I will ####### kill you." No biggie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zbR824FKpU&feature=youtu.be

Yeah, but he didn't. /jonessed

Pretty sure that you aren't supposed to walk around gun drawn on your shoulder in a crowd like that. He's a fatty walking backwards and sideways. There's a high risk of a tip over and accidental firing.

What you got against fatty's?

We talking fatty's or chubbies?

You'd have to ask Mr Roboto, he's the one throwing around the slurs

 

[Christo]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Crazy white lady with a Wilson sign.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

Sounds like more than a few are feeling like if you don't support Brown then you are a racist.

I still feel terrible for the parents in all of this. They were looking for answers and got pulled in every which direction by the media, Al Sharpton types, strangers from all over the Globe, I feel terrible for them.

It will be even more painful if in the end this is a story about a young man who was about to start college and decided in what I imagine will be a drug induced rage of some kind, decides to unload on a police officer fearing he was going to be arrested for robbing a convenience store and meets the officer at his door with all the force of a 6-4/250 lbs young man, it appears he might have broken the eye socket or orbital something or other, if the cop sustained any injury along those lines or was on the verge of getting knocked out, not sure any jury under any circumstance would find him guilty of anything other than trying to protect the community.

That's what will be so sad as after all of this, Brown is proven to be a thug or had a thug like moment, I think a lot of people will turn on this community and you could see a lot more callous attitudes towards possible real racism across the country but after this media blitz will simply be brushed under the rug.

The whole thing could actually have the opposite impact those folks were yearning for.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Again, I disagree. Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed. Unless you believe that Brown was charging at Wilson, there is no other justification for this act- I don't care if Brown was a mass murderer, a child rapist or whatever. I don't care if he spent the last 10 minutes prior pummeling Wilson to the ground, breaking his arm, etc. He's 30 feet away at the time the shots are fired, and he's unarmed. So he can't be a threat, unless he's charging at Wilson.So once again, that means that in order to justify the shooting, we have to believe that Wilson would be willing to charge at a policeman firing bullets at him, like George Pickett at Gettysburg. There is NO prior action by Brown that we know of, not the robbery, not hitting the policeman earlier, that would make him being willing to rush into death any more plausible. So Christo and others can laugh at me all you want, but I atill say the robbery is irrelevant. EVERYTHING is irrelevant that doesn't either prove Brown was charging, or prove that Wilson had some other plausible reason for shooting him from 30 feet away. That's the heart of the matter.

So you've concluded that Wilson decided in the heat of the moment to do something irrational, but you can't imagine Brown deciding in the heat of the moment to do something irrational. How convenient.

Not convenient, but consider the two acts of irrationality and tell me which one is more likely. Wilson has a gun in his hand. Brown is unarmed. Is it more likely that the armed guy uses his gun, or that the unarmed guy charges into bullets?

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

How much time do you think this "running away" is taking?

Everyone agrees he was 10 yards away, when he turns around.

How long does it take for a 6'4" 18 year old to emerge from the fight at/in the car and get to 10 yards?

This is all happening pretty quickly, quicker than people are realizing.

 

[lod01]

Crazy white lady with a Wilson sign.

Taken away. Lucky her. Everyone else is about to get drenched.

Protests suspended for the night. News networks bummed.

 

[matttyl]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

Didn't Johnson also say that Brown was shot in the back, or at least while running away - which the autopsy dismissed. I can pretty much forgive him for not mentioning the robbery - but not mentioning it along with telling his side of the shooting which the autopsy dismissed pretty much makes me think that anything he says is false.

how many missed shots were there?

We don't yet know that (add another thing to the list). Being that we do know that 6 shots hit Brown, and that all the reports I've seen say they heard "at least 5 shots", I'm going to guess not many. Has anyone said they have heard 8+ shots?

Dorian Johnson said Brown was shot once at close range, once as he ran away (which looking at the autopsy drawing, could be the shot in the hand or forearm) and that the officer shot 7 more times after Brown turned around to surrender. Of course, I don't think its unreasonable for a witness to miscount how many shots fired in that situation.

As I said above, I'm going to take anything Johnson says with a huge grain of salt.

Even if this account is true, he's saying that Wilson hit a moving target twice, and then (since the autopsy said he was hit with only 6 bullets) missed on three of his next 7 shots at a stationary target.

 

[msommer]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

 

[Politician Spock]

Ridiculous statement. The robbery could have had a great deal to do with motivation and actions. We'll find out soon enough.

Again, I disagree. Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed. Unless you believe that Brown was charging at Wilson, there is no other justification for this act- I don't care if Brown was a mass murderer, a child rapist or whatever. I don't care if he spent the last 10 minutes prior pummeling Wilson to the ground, breaking his arm, etc. He's 30 feet away at the time the shots are fired, and he's unarmed. So he can't be a threat, unless he's charging at Wilson.So once again, that means that in order to justify the shooting, we have to believe that Wilson would be willing to charge at a policeman firing bullets at him, like George Pickett at Gettysburg. There is NO prior action by Brown that we know of, not the robbery, not hitting the policeman earlier, that would make him being willing to rush into death any more plausible. So Christo and others can laugh at me all you want, but I atill say the robbery is irrelevant. EVERYTHING is irrelevant that doesn't either prove Brown was charging, or prove that Wilson had some other plausible reason for shooting him from 30 feet away. That's the heart of the matter.

So you've concluded that Wilson decided in the heat of the moment to do something irrational, but you can't imagine Brown deciding in the heat of the moment to do something irrational. How convenient.

Not convenient, but consider the two acts of irrationality and tell me which one is more likely. Wilson has a gun in his hand. Brown is unarmed. Is it more likely that the armed guy uses his gun, or that the unarmed guy charges into bullets?

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight. How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

I'm not saying he didn't run away. I'm asking why Wilson had to start shooting at Brown before Brown charges towards him. To get him to stop running would put bullets in Browns back.

 

[msommer]

Again, I disagree. Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed. Unless you believe that Brown was charging at Wilson, there is no other justification for this act- I don't care if Brown was a mass murderer, a child rapist or whatever. I don't care if he spent the last 10 minutes prior pummeling Wilson to the ground, breaking his arm, etc. He's 30 feet away at the time the shots are fired, and he's unarmed. So he can't be a threat, unless he's charging at Wilson.So once again, that means that in order to justify the shooting, we have to believe that Wilson would be willing to charge at a policeman firing bullets at him, like George Pickett at Gettysburg. There is NO prior action by Brown that we know of, not the robbery, not hitting the policeman earlier, that would make him being willing to rush into death any more plausible. So Christo and others can laugh at me all you want, but I atill say the robbery is irrelevant. EVERYTHING is irrelevant that doesn't either prove Brown was charging, or prove that Wilson had some other plausible reason for shooting him from 30 feet away. That's the heart of the matter.

So you've concluded that Wilson decided in the heat of the moment to do something irrational, but you can't imagine Brown deciding in the heat of the moment to do something irrational. How convenient.

Not convenient, but consider the two acts of irrationality and tell me which one is more likely. Wilson has a gun in his hand. Brown is unarmed. Is it more likely that the armed guy uses his gun, or that the unarmed guy charges into bullets?

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

How much time do you think this "running away" is taking?

Everyone agrees he was 10 yards away, when he turns around.

How long does it take for a 6'4" 18 year old to emerge from the fight at/in the car and get to 10 yards?

This is all happening pretty quickly, quicker than people are realizing.

Who said anything about time, I'm talking running away, slapdash said it didn't happen, I'm substantiating that why it actually is likely to have happened on the basis of a video of the crime scene

 

[KCitons]

This thread is similar to sitting in a crowded coffee shop. Dozens of separate conversations and arguments going on at the same time. At some point, it starts to just become noise.

 

[Christo]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

Yet, people are claiming that this was the most incompetent police force in the history of mankind.

 

[Fennis]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

Didn't Johnson also say that Brown was shot in the back, or at least while running away - which the autopsy dismissed. I can pretty much forgive him for not mentioning the robbery - but not mentioning it along with telling his side of the shooting which the autopsy dismissed pretty much makes me think that anything he says is false.

how many missed shots were there?

We don't yet know that (add another thing to the list). Being that we do know that 6 shots hit Brown, and that all the reports I've seen say they heard "at least 5 shots", I'm going to guess not many. Has anyone said they have heard 8+ shots?

Dorian Johnson said Brown was shot once at close range, once as he ran away (which looking at the autopsy drawing, could be the shot in the hand or forearm) and that the officer shot 7 more times after Brown turned around to surrender. Of course, I don't think its unreasonable for a witness to miscount how many shots fired in that situation.

As I said above, I'm going to take anything Johnson says with a huge grain of salt.

Even if this account is true, he's saying that Wilson hit a moving target twice, and then (since the autopsy said he was hit with only 6 bullets) missed on three of his next 7 shots at a stationary target.

Johnson's story (true or not is) that the cop shot a moving target once. The first shot was at close range, not a moving target. Wilson turns to run and runs. The cop shoots and fires and hits Brown. Brown stops turns around the cop fires seven more times. Johnson does not say how many of those hit. He also could be wrong and the cop shot five times. I think that's a reasonable thing to be wrong about.

The autopsy said Brown was hit "six to eight" times

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Right now the only thing that matters is that Wilson shot Brown from a distance of 30 feet, and Brown was unarmed.

We don't know that Wilson shot Brown from thirty feet away. That thirty feet estimate was provided by Dorian Johnson. The autopsy neither confirmed nor dismissed the thirty feet estimate.

Didn't Johnson also say that Brown was shot in the back, or at least while running away - which the autopsy dismissed. I can pretty much forgive him for not mentioning the robbery - but not mentioning it along with telling his side of the shooting which the autopsy dismissed pretty much makes me think that anything he says is false.

how many missed shots were there?

We don't yet know that (add another thing to the list). Being that we do know that 6 shots hit Brown, and that all the reports I've seen say they heard "at least 5 shots", I'm going to guess not many. Has anyone said they have heard 8+ shots?

Dorian Johnson said Brown was shot once at close range, once as he ran away (which looking at the autopsy drawing, could be the shot in the hand or forearm) and that the officer shot 7 more times after Brown turned around to surrender. Of course, I don't think its unreasonable for a witness to miscount how many shots fired in that situation.

As I said above, I'm going to take anything Johnson says with a huge grain of salt. Even if this account is true, he's saying that Wilson hit a moving target twice, and then (since the autopsy said he was hit with only 6 bullets) missed on three of his next 7 shots at a stationary target.

I too take it with a grain of salt but only because that kid probably witnessed the most traumatic thing in his life and can't recall all the details. I'm sure he's still remembering stuff from that day.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Stop quoting that post. Jesus.

 

[Fennis]

In Johnson's interview on TV just after the event, he said Brown was bending over to surrender and get on the ground when he was shot, which also matches the bullet to the head.

 

[msommer]

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight. How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

I'm not saying he didn't run away. I'm asking why Wilson had to start shooting at Brown before Brown charges towards him. To get him to stop running would put bullets in Browns back.

Or a graze on the hand or arm (coroner states possible) or a close miss.

Remember we still do not know how many shots fired.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Crazy white lady with a Wilson sign.

Wow. BALLSthe quotes are killing this thread for the mobile version.

 

[msommer]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

Yet, people are claiming that this was the most incompetent police force in the history of mankind.

And others claim that at least one of the police officers involved had an exemplary record in said police force

 

[Fennis]

Crazy white lady with a Wilson sign.

Wow. BALLSthe quotes are killing this thread for the mobile version.

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[Ditkaless Wonders]

Regarding witnesses: to be fair, I didn't believe in "John" from the Treyvon Martin case either, until he actually showed up at trial. So I was wrong about that, and I could very well be wrong about this.

But none of this really matters. I think Wilson is going to be indicted. I think he should be indicted, based on what we know. I think he likely committed a crime. I think there's is going to be a trial, and we're likely to be discussing it for months to come, just like Zimmerman. And in the end, I predict Wilson will be acquitted, because there's too much reasonable doubt, just like Zimmerman. And there will be justifiable anger, but no further rioting. Just like Zimmerman.

I also think that there will be repercussions for the terrible way the police have behaved here. Some people will resign or be fired. There will be lawsuits.

But the most important and saddest part of this whole affair is that it won't really change anything. Police departments all over this country will continue to stereotype black youths- not because the cops are evil, but because they honestly believe that it's the best way to fight crime. African-Americans will continue to feel victimized by the police, while refusing to acknowledge any responsibility for their problems. Liberals will continue to side with blacks in every situation, and blame the government, conservatives, the police, and themselves for the plight of so many African-Americans, but never the African-Americans themselves. Conservatives will continue to exonerate the police in every instance, blame blacks in every instance, and refuse to acknowledge that there is any racism at all, or that the American Dream doesn't always extend itself to certain minorities the same way that it does for white people.

And so we'll continue to have these sorts of incidents for decades to come. Rinse and repeat...

unless the feds step in there is no chance Wilson is indicted. The police force will never, ever, never, ever, never, ever, never, ever, never, ever let it happen.

I thought it was the district attorney's office, and not the police, who decided to indict or not indict.

And I thought it was going to be the grand jury.

the police provide the evidence

Grand Juries do have subpoena power and some have investigators separate from police. District Attorney's Offices also frequently have an independent investigator or two.

 

[Christo]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

Yet, people are claiming that this was the most incompetent police force in the history of mankind.

And others claim that at least one of the police officers involved had an exemplary record in said police force

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

 

[matttyl]

The autopsy said Brown was hit "six to eight" times

Seriously? I thought it was 6 bullets, with one or possibly more that exited and re-entered. Are they saying more than 6 bullets struck him?

 

[msommer]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

Yet, people are claiming that this was the most incompetent police force in the history of mankind.

And others claim that at least one of the police officers involved had an exemplary record in said police force

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

Reaching are we?

Maybe the ace officer should have told the other guy. Dude, that's a crime scene

 

[matttyl]

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

Reaching are we?

Maybe the ace officer should have told the other guy. Dude, that's a crime scene

Maybe Wilson wasn't standing right next to his car when he fired. Maybe the "scuffle" started at the car and took both ~10-30 feet from the car before a gun was drawn. We still don't know what happened.

 

[Christo]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

Yet, people are claiming that this was the most incompetent police force in the history of mankind.

And others claim that at least one of the police officers involved had an exemplary record in said police force

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

Reaching are we?

Maybe the ace officer should have told the other guy. Dude, that's a crime scene

Yeah, I'm the one who's reaching even though I'm not the one drawing a conclusion from a quick video that was taken sometime after the incident.

 

[msommer]

The autopsy said Brown was hit "six to eight" times

Seriously? I thought it was 6 bullets, with one or possibly more that exited and re-entered. Are they saying more than 6 bullets struck him?

The Ferguson coroner said 6-8 and also said multiple chest wounds

The private consultant (forensic pathologist and medical examiner in NYC team) said that the one bullet that hit the eye travelled down and out under the jaw, entering the torso. six hits. three bullets recovered

 

[Politician Spock]

Why does Wilson have to be firing before Brown charges towards him?

Why else would he stop?

Stop what?

running away

Wilson shot him in the back?

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight. How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

I'm not saying he didn't run away. I'm asking why Wilson had to start shooting at Brown before Brown charges towards him. To get him to stop running would put bullets in Browns back.

Or a graze on the hand or arm (coroner states possible) or a close miss.Remember we still do not know how many shots fired.

Or Wilson in the heat of the moment called Brown a ###### as Brown was running away, prompting Brown to stop and come back to pound on Wilson some more... until he was pumped full of lead.

I'm not saying I know what happened. I'm just amazed that Tim can't imagine Brown doing something irrational that would result in him charging back towards Wilson. It was a heated fight. Just because Brown ran after assaulting Wilson, doesn't mean he's "Let It Go". I've seen many fights that looked over that rekindled into a second round. Again, I don't know what happened, but could Brown have charged back at Wilson for a second go 'round?... of course he could have. It's not out of the realm of possibility like Tim claims.

 

[msommer]

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

Reaching are we?

Maybe the ace officer should have told the other guy. Dude, that's a crime scene

Maybe Wilson wasn't standing right next to his car when he fired. Maybe the "scuffle" started at the car and took both ~10-30 feet from the car before a gun was drawn. We still don't know what happened.

So why speculate?

 

[msommer]

In the video where the body is laying on the ground and the two officers are standing alone, one pacing there is no police vehicle in sight.

How did the body get away from the police vehicle if Brown did not run away?

They moved the vehicle?

The vehicle that was part of the crime scene, where allegedly a felony took place (assaulting an officer of the law)?

That sounds like an interesting theory

Yet, people are claiming that this was the most incompetent police force in the history of mankind.

And others claim that at least one of the police officers involved had an exemplary record in said police force

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

Reaching are we?

Maybe the ace officer should have told the other guy. Dude, that's a crime scene

Yeah, I'm the one who's reaching even though I'm not the one drawing a conclusion from a quick video that was taken sometime after the incident.

You really use those emoticons a lot when you run out of coherent arguments. Have you noticed that?

 

[Christo]

Maybe it wasn't him who moved it.

Reaching are we?

Maybe the ace officer should have told the other guy. Dude, that's a crime scene

Maybe Wilson wasn't standing right next to his car when he fired. Maybe the "scuffle" started at the car and took both ~10-30 feet from the car before a gun was drawn. We still don't know what happened.

So why speculate?

You were the one who said he was running away.