Dondante
Footballguy
I'm not trying to insult you, Tobes; honest. I mean, it's not like you have a snide comment for nearly everything I post.
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Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Otis
- Start date
Yenrub
Footballguy
[SIZE=10.5pt]You are probably correct. Lack of respect from both sides. Police toward Citizens and Citizens toward Police. [/SIZE]
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Why are there black neighborhoods then?I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?jon_mx said:show me the policies.urbanhack said:OK.jon_mx said:
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
Why can't more blacks move out of their bad neighborhoods?
Gawain
Footballguy
Say what you want about stop-and-frisk, but Deblasio did away with it and this was the result:
http://nypost.com/2014/06/10/shootings-spike-in-nyc-over-the-last-year/
http://nypost.com/2014/06/10/shootings-spike-in-nyc-over-the-last-year/
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
No, misleading New York Post articles have always existed, so I don't think there's causation there. Or are you referring to the reduction in homicides?
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
Seriously? Do you have comprehension of US history?Why are there black neighborhoods then?I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?jon_mx said:show me the policies.urbanhack said:OK.jon_mx said:
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
Dondante
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Convenient that you avoided my second question. Seriously?Seriously? Do you have comprehension of US history?Why are there black neighborhoods then?I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?show me the policies.OK.
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
ALLEGEDLY (via Anonymous): Son of Ferguson Chief of Police apparently has a big Confederate Flag on the wall of his living room.
That would not be good for race relations.
That would not be good for race relations.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
Awesome alternative reality going on, condolences.....You have some awesome guilt going on, congrats....I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?show me the policies.OK.
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
jonessed
Footballguy
pantagrapher
Footballguy
I don't know but some crazy race-obsessed people are going to think his dad might be an important influence in his life.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
This was your second question, right?Convenient that you avoided my second question. Seriously?Seriously? Do you have comprehension of US history?Why are there black neighborhoods then?I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?show me the policies.OK.
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
I assume he "avoided" it because he didn't think it was a serious question. It's not a serious question, is it? Please tell me it's not.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Nothing wrong with stop and frisk... As a New Yorker, I would have zero issue if I was ever stopped to be frisked, no homo....
Last year I was randomly selected to have a bag searched while getting on the subway, I was actually running late and still didn't mind.
Last year I was randomly selected to have a bag searched while getting on the subway, I was actually running late and still didn't mind.
jonessed
Footballguy
He looks young. If he's in college or lives with roommates I think it would be tough to hold that against his dad.
Go crazy with it though. Maybe you can get a local riot going.
matttyl
Footballguy
Why would a flag owned by the son of a coworker/boss of the police offer in question in this shooting be of any importance at all?
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
Should I happily skip down the street in neighborhoods that report high crime and where hearing gunfire is commonplace?SheeshI don't want to quibble over what is and what isn't the worst area in the area, but while Ferguson has dressed it up a bit over the years (the big shopping center at W. Florissant and Lucas and Hunt, although that might be Jennings...cannot remember), crime is still not good there from what I have know, and their schooling system is off the charts bad. A co-worker with two young children actually moved out of that area last year (she lived just off Chambers, where a lot of that stuff last night happened) because, in her words, "she couldn't raise her kids any longer in an area where they heard gunfire every night." Sure, North City, other parts of North County and parts of South City are probably worse, but Ferguson is still not a place, prior to this weekend, I'd feel safe walking up and down the street.
@ gunfire being commonplace. Again, I lived 1/4 mile from the city limits and just a couple of miles from downtown Ferguson and it was A LOT worse then than it is now. You didn't hear gun shots on any kind of regular basis. I don't know if I ever heard gun shots actually and I lived there 9 years.Go here, skip to the 9:50 mark on what a ghetto it is. It's simply untrue. Maybe you guys are just scared of black people.
I'm ####### done with this cluster#### of a thread. :finger: to a lot of you.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Regarding the gunfire, I was just repeating what a co-worker said, regarding her reason for leaving Ferguson a year ago.Should I happily skip down the street in neighborhoods that report high crime and where hearing gunfire is commonplace?SheeshI don't want to quibble over what is and what isn't the worst area in the area, but while Ferguson has dressed it up a bit over the years (the big shopping center at W. Florissant and Lucas and Hunt, although that might be Jennings...cannot remember), crime is still not good there from what I have know, and their schooling system is off the charts bad. A co-worker with two young children actually moved out of that area last year (she lived just off Chambers, where a lot of that stuff last night happened) because, in her words, "she couldn't raise her kids any longer in an area where they heard gunfire every night." Sure, North City, other parts of North County and parts of South City are probably worse, but Ferguson is still not a place, prior to this weekend, I'd feel safe walking up and down the street.
Go here, skip to the 9:50 mark on what a ghetto it is. It's simply untrue. Maybe you guys are just scared of black people.
I'm ####### done with this cluster#### of a thread. :finger: to a lot of you.
I never used the word ghetto, nor would I. I simply said it was one of the worst areas in the St. Louis area, and then later amplified that by saying that there are worse areas, but I still wouldn't feel safe there, based on what a) I've heard about that area from other people, and b) the high crime rate.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Because this is how the guilt-tinged leftist mind works. Why maintain objectivity when you can jump to conclusions?
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Because the people of Ferguson seem to have a long-running problem with the police. So while the protests were kicked off by the shooting, I think the overall image of the police department is incredibly important to the people down there who think they're being treated unfairly.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
I didn't jump to any. I'm talking about how I think something like this will be interpreted by the people on the street.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Hmm. The "guilt-tinged leftist mind," you say? And they all work the same way? Well you do seem like an expert in objectivity and not jumping to conclusions. Thanks for your insight!
matttyl
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Excellent post, Jackstraw.I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?show me the policies.OK.
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
pantagrapher
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
Honestly I'm just trying to figure out why it was brought up or why it's relevant at all, aside from an attempt to stir up racial divides.
Say a guy works at a restaurant, and the restaurant's owner's stupid kid has a jacked up pickup truck with a confederate flag in the bed - does that have any bearing at all on the restaurant worker?
pantagrapher
Footballguy
If patrons think there's a pattern of racist treatment from the restaurant staff, it might. And if my daughter put a Confederate flag on her truck some day, I wouldn't act shocked if people thought I had something to do with her views.
matttyl
Footballguy
I think that's quite a leap, personally. We still have no idea of any details of the police officer, correct? Do we know for certain that he's in fact white?
As to your second sentence, sure that makes sense - the leap for me is that your view affect your coworkers, not your own daughter.
Dondante
Footballguy
Seems to me it was brought up to suggest the family might have something of a racist background or set of ideals (or they might just be huge Dukes of Hazzard fans).
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Not only that, but according to his lawyer, they have contacted the police department, offered an interview, and were declined.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
As I explained in an earlier comment, the Ferguson protests are about more than this single incident.
And yes, witnesses have said the officer was white. Of course, that might turn out not to be true. We'll see.
matttyl
Footballguy
Who's family? The shooter (who we still know next to nothing about, correct?), or the family of the Police Chief?
As for the Dukes of Hazzard comment - I completely accidentally have dogs named Luke and Beau (Bo). Am I racist, too?
timschochet
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Dondante
Footballguy
Maybe, just maybe, the police don't view him as a key witness. Maybe they know something you and Mr. Hayes don't. Maybe they are covering something up, who knows. But a page-click generating comment from an openly biased "news source" is really just, I don't know, riot inciting until there are some actual facts to talk about.
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matttyl
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Dondante
Footballguy
Pretty much. Don't be ridiculous, guy. Family of the cop. And no way it's "completely accidentally."
matttyl
Footballguy
The flag thing isn't from the family of the cop in the shooting, it's from the family of the police chief - which is why I don't think it's particularly relevant.
And yes, it's completely accidentally. My wife has had a border collie named Luke (named after "cool hand Luke") since he was a few weeks old, and he's now 10. 2 weeks ago we adopted a 12 year old "senior rescue" border collie (yes, we have a thing for the breed) named Beau (pronounced Bo). We now have dogs with the names of the Dukes of Hazzard, by complete accident.
Dondante
Footballguy
I stand corrected. Do they slide over the hood of your vehicles when you take them for a ride?
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Good. I think this should become more commonplace, and the FBI should potentially add a department to investigate cases of police brutality. I simply don't trust police internal affairs to adequately investigate and police their own.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Bad post. All of things you describe happen for a reason, meaning there is causation. Let's start with you being 10x a thug. Give us all a break. What did you get away with due to your white skin? I personally know a lot of cops who have to patrol bad neighborhoods, many of those neighborhoods are black hoods. First off, yes they are looking for a profile, but guess what? Since everybody who lives in the neighborhood is black, that is not what they are looking for. They are looking for suspicious behavior. That is the person's fault if they fit the bill in that regard. People of all colors deal with every day. As far as the suburbs go, if I am traveling through a super ritzy hood in my beat up car, then I am taking a risk for being pulled over if I have a violation. It is not the cops fault that you have a violation!!!! If you have one they can pull you over. I am a white guy.... I got pulled over driving around at bar time for a ticky-tack b.s reason. Was the cop profiling me....of course, I was driving around at 3AM....does it change the fact that I had a violation,? NO!!!!!!! He has every right to pull me over, and if I have done something wrong, I will be in trouble.Excellent post, Jackstraw.I could shoot speeders in the head when I pull them over and it would effectively reduce speeding. Doesn't make it right. How in the world can you say there is no racism behind policies when they pick particular races to profile. That statement is absurd. Plus reductions in crime in NYC mirror other areas where crime has dropped without stop and frisk.It is a policy which effectively has reduced crime in high crime areas. There is no racism behind the policies. So far the voters of New York (mostly black voters) have voted for people in favor of these policies and the polices have survived legal challenges to date. It is an area of debate whether the loss of freedom is worth the results, but I don't see it as proof of institutionalized racism. The policy is well known and is supported by many minorities.NYC stop and frisk comes to mindThat was fairly recent wasn't it?show me the policies.OK.
It's amazing how people can be so obtusely blind to the black experience. I'm not excusing looting or any other crime for that matter. But if you think the deck isn't stacked against black people with the amount of evidence in the justice system; with the policies banks and other financial institutions have in minority neighborhoods; with the education system etc etc there's nothing at this point that can possibly change your mind. It's so evident to me it doesn't even merit debate. But here we are.
Think to yourself why there are even black neighborhoods in the first place. You think a lot of those people wouldn't move to better neighborhoods if they could? You think there's no housing discrimination? If you can't see that stuff that's plain as day your just a putz who has no idea what he's talking about.
My background is such that I've lived with minorities of all stripes. I've heard there stories. I've been out with them and experienced it first hand. I was ten times the thug that someof my black friends ever thought about being and somehow the trouble would find them. Like some kind of magic. I keep thinking for why that is and I just can't understand it. People like Jon "whitesplain" to me that racism doesn't exist so it can't be that.
As far as housing goes, why on earth would a bank loan money to somebody who they think cannot or even might not pay it back? That is absurd. Actually, I just read a post in this forum by a respected member who says he makes a lot of money and cannot get a loan for a house he wants to buy. I doubt he is black....if banks are racist, why did they not just loan him the money? After all, he is white and even makes alot of money! I guarantee you that if a black guy walks into a bank with 20% down, proof of a steady paycheck, and good credit history, he will get a loan, because those are the things needed for a loan!!!! It is not the bank's fault that there are many blacks who do not fit that description. You know whose fault it is? YOURS!!!!!! People like you constantly make excuses for blacks, you send them messages that of course they cannot be expected to act like everyone else...they are black...whatever that means.
Last point, the education system. I know you say you walk hand in hand with the blacks, but I have actually spent time in all kinds of urban schools including a few years in schools that are primarily black. Blacks are given the same opportunities that white and Hispanics have, but because we like to sit around and make excuses for all of the nutcases and anti-authoritarians around in our world, their schools suffer the most. If you go to a black private school where no excuses are tolerated and excellence is expected, I will show you a good school and those schools do exist. If you go to a typical inner city public school where we have to accept the fact that little Tyrone wants to kill everybody who looks at him sideways and just work with him, that is the reason the schools fail. But you have to begin to understand that little Tyrone is allowed to stay on because of people like you who always make excuses for his crazy and threatening demeanor. You have a classroom of 24 kids who are smart and ready to learn, combined with 4 or 5 kids who are basically psychotic and ruin it for everybody. And it is accepted by people like you because all you like to do is sit in your little suburban enclave and make excuses because the movie "Mississippi Burning" left a hole in your bleeding heart . Hell, you even prefaced your asinine screed with "I'm not excusing looting, but",,,,
BUT WHAT!?!?!?!?! You just did excuse it....you wrote a post giving us your perspective (as a white guy who has lots of black friends) on the black experience. If only we knew!!!!! All of the profiling!!! All of the loan denials!!! All of the teachers who didn't care!!!! Not only is your post nonsensical, it is an insult to the spirit of humanity!!!!
Its disingenuous to say they are "destroying goods"....what they are doing is breaking windows and causing mayhem in order to steal.
matttyl
Footballguy
Everyone asks me that. Luke loves car rides, but we're not sure about Beau yet.
I brought it up to show an example of where people might jump to conclusions. If you hear that I have dogs named Luke and Bo, you might immediately think of the Duzes of Hazzard, and by association the Confederate flag, and by further association racism. Nothing could be further from the truth, at least in my case. Perhaps that flag isn't owned by the son of the police chief. Perhaps that isn't even the son of the police chief. Perhaps it is his son and it is his flag and he has it up to show his family heritage or of his thoughts on State's rights - nothing to do with racism.
Are you nuts? How many cops do you think they have? My guess is the reason they are not doing interviews is because the town has been under siege for the last 48 hours and they need every last person out on the front line.
Greggity
Footballguy
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