Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[dozer]

Anyone have a map of where this store is and where he was shot? The timeline is only 10 minutes apart. He should have had the cigars and the baseball cap on I would think unless the other kid had the cigars.

I ask because it seems the family thinks the police are basically making it up as they go.

He also couldn't have switched from flip flops to tennis shoes. (it looks to me that he has flip flops on in the pictures of him laying on the ground).

I'm pretty sure this is the scene of where he was shot.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Great. Now it is time for everyone to come out of the woodwork and say he deserved to die because he was a criminal and probably was getting high. Just like Trayvon.

I don't think many people are saying that, but even as tgunz admitted, it appears with a possible theft involved, the context has changed at least somewhat. It's not as simple as "a rogue cop had it out for this kid."

Give it time for the Carolina Hustlers and Jojos of the world to show up.

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

Perhaps it was my own misunderstanding of the original version of facts being reported, but I thought this was more of the random cop yells at a minority to get out of the street, and when he doesn't, cop goes Rambo on him. Obviously the robbery doesn't justify the shooting of an unarmed man, but it certainly colors the context under which the police were acting.

Still likely excessive force, but excessive force while in pursuit of a robbery suspect is different than excessive force that is the result of an egotistical cop who created the problem in the first place.

 

[kentric]

Are you arguing that there was no reason for the police to bring out the heavy guns or, are you arguing that the heavy guns contributed to the looting?

Are you disappointed that the heavy guns are gone, the police are treating protestors decently, and that as a result the violence has gone down?

No. I was asking for clarification on why you were looking for the information. If it was because you wanted to see if the police brought out heavy equipment without any cause then I agree with you (I'm not saying that they were justified in bringing out the heavy equipment even after the looting, but at least it would be more justified than prior to the looting). If you are arguing that the looting was a direct result of the heavy guns being brought out then I disagree with you.

 

[[icon]]

Ah, of course this inevitably devolves to the incoming Brown investigation/trial.

From my standpoint, it is terrible that young man died, but the immediate militarization of the PD and treatment of the protesters are the most disturbing things to come from #Ferguson.

Why are you typing hashtags in a forum?

stop it.

 

[Hang 10]

Can we stop referring to this as a "robbery," as if he pistol-whipped the cashier and emptied out the register? The guy apparently stole some cigars. That's more akin to shoplifting. Yeah, I understand he shoved the cashier, but come on.

This new information does make me doubt that the officer really just harassed the Brown and his friend for walking down the street, but it doesn't even come remotely close to justifying the shooting.

Not sure about Missouri but..."Under California Penal Code section 211, a person is guilty of committing the crime of Robbery when they take the property of another by means of force or fear. In 1983, the California Court of Appeal found in the case of People v. Estes (1983) 147 Cal.App.3d 23 , 194 Cal.Rptr. 909, that a shoplifter is guilty of the crime of robbery if they use force or fear to escape a store after the taking of the property. "

That's great, but that's also not how people use that term in everyday English.

It most certainly is.

Yeah, this is bit of an odd angle from Ivan. I don't understand where he was trying to go with this.

When people talk about "robbery," they're usually not thinking of somebody swiping a few bucks of low-end cigars and trying to run away with them. To use that term in this context, as if it in any way justifies or explains what followed, is at best hyperbole and at worst (and I'm virtually certain this is the police department's intent) deliberately misleading.

Whatever the legal definition of robbery might be, Brown was not a dangerous criminal who had just blown away a bunch of people while stealing a briefcase full of diamonds. There was absolutely no reason for a responding officer to fear for his safety. Let's not pretend otherwise by exaggerating things.

I'm not sure how you can say this after seeing Brown manhandling the clerk in that convenience store. He didn't just swipe some cigars. He took them by force. The clerk got robbed.

 

[[icon]]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

 

[lod01]

Ah, of course this inevitably devolves to the incoming Brown investigation/trial.

From my standpoint, it is terrible that young man died, but the immediate militarization of the PD and treatment of the protesters are the most disturbing things to come from #Ferguson.

Why are you typing hashtags in a forum?

stop it.

Should be a bannable offense.

 

[lod01]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... not it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

We'll get there. Patience.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Still likely excessive force, but excessive force while in pursuit of a robbery suspect is different than excessive force that is the result of an egotistical cop who created the problem in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

 

[kentric]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

I thought it was 35 feet (or yards).

 

[Todd Andrews]

Did any of the witnesses say the cop was white?

All of them.

 

[kentric]

Still likely excessive force, but excessive force while in pursuit of a robbery suspect is different than excessive force that is the result of an egotistical cop who created the problem in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

In one instance you're dealing with just a kid walking on the street. In the other, you're dealing with someone who forcibly robbed as store. In the later, the individual is much more likely to be a potential threat.

 

[BigJohn]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away? Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

I thought it was 35 feet (or yards).

Give or take 80 feet.

 

[[icon]]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

I thought it was 35 feet (or yards).

I'm assuming everyone realizes there is a relatively significant difference between feet/yards here, right?

 

[Jim11]

HEY THERE'S JIMM111 AND HIS CODE WORDS.

Thank you, Al...or is it Jesse?

 

[kentric]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

I thought it was 35 feet (or yards).

I'm assuming everyone realizes there is a relatively significant difference between feet/yards here, right?

Personally I'd rather people use the metric system and describe it in liters.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I can't believe the cop shot the kid 35 minutes after stopping him.

 

[Widbil83]

This is sweet.

That's actually from Brazil, I believe. I've seen that picture many times in the past.

Yeah, here you go.

Thank you. Never saw it before.

Way to just lay it in this thread anyway and pass it off like it happened in Ferguson. Good work Tood.

 

[Jim11]

Great. Now it is time for everyone to come out of the woodwork and say he deserved to die because he was a criminal and probably was getting high. Just like Trayvon.

I don't think many people are saying that, but even as tgunz admitted, it appears with a possible theft involved, the context has changed at least somewhat. It's not as simple as "a rogue cop had it out for this kid."

Give it time for the Carolina Hustlers and Jojos of the world to show up.

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

Perhaps it was my own misunderstanding of the original version of facts being reported, but I thought this was more of the random cop yells at a minority to get out of the street, and when he doesn't, cop goes Rambo on him. Obviously the robbery doesn't justify the shooting of an unarmed man, but it certainly colors the context under which the police were acting.

Still likely excessive force, but excessive force while in pursuit of a robbery suspect is different than excessive force that is the result of an egotistical cop who created the problem in the first place.

If somebody that's 6' 4" tries to use force on you and you have a weapon, perhaps you would not consider it excessive force.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/us/police-say-mike-brown-was-killed-after-struggle-for-gun.html?_r=0

The fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager Saturday by a police officer in a St. Louis suburb came after a struggle for the officer’s gun

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Still likely excessive force, but excessive force while in pursuit of a robbery suspect is different than excessive force that is the result of an egotistical cop who created the problem in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

In one instance you're dealing with just a kid walking on the street. In the other, you're dealing with someone who forcibly robbed as store. In the later, the individual is much more likely to be a potential threat.

No, in the other, you're dealing with someone who MAY have done that. If the cop IDs the wrong person as a suspect that we're back to square one.

 

[Worm]

Video

 

[Todd Andrews]

This is sweet.

That's actually from Brazil, I believe. I've seen that picture many times in the past.

Yeah, here you go.

Thank you. Never saw it before.

Way to just lay it in this thread anyway and pass it off like it happened in Ferguson. Good work Tood.

I didnt pass it off like it happened in Ferguson, someone else did.

 

[kentric]

Still likely excessive force, but excessive force while in pursuit of a robbery suspect is different than excessive force that is the result of an egotistical cop who created the problem in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

In one instance you're dealing with just a kid walking on the street. In the other, you're dealing with someone who forcibly robbed as store. In the later, the individual is much more likely to be a potential threat.

No, in the other, you're dealing with someone who MAY have done that. If the cop IDs the wrong person as a suspect that we're back to square one.

It doesn't matter whether he actually did it or not if the police officer believes that he did based on the information he has available. I'm not saying that the officer did or did not do that, but that is the premise we were discussing.

 

[Hang 10]

Video

Yeah, that's not a robbery.

 

[Todd Andrews]

The police chief just said that the officers initial contact and the robbery were unrelated so the store video and the fact that Brown took the cigarillos has nothing to do with what happened ten minutes later. The officer didnt think Brown was a suspect.

 

[Josie Maran]

The police chief just said that the officers initial contact and the robbery were unrelated so the store video and the fact that Brown took the cigarillos has nothing to do with what happened ten minutes later. The officer didnt think Brown was a suspect.

This makes sense. Generally a cop's initial interaction with a robbery suspect isn't going to be hassling him for jaywalking.

 

[hagmania]

Ah, of course this inevitably devolves to the incoming Brown investigation/trial.

From my standpoint, it is terrible that young man died, but the immediate militarization of the PD and treatment of the protesters are the most disturbing things to come from #Ferguson.

Why are you typing hashtags in a forum?

stop it.

Should be a bannable offense.

No bullies allowed!

 

[whitem0nkey]

Ferguson PD chief says initial contact between officer Wilson and Mike Brown had nothing to do with alleged theft at store.

 

[Todd Andrews]

The police chief just said that the officers initial contact and the robbery were unrelated so the store video and the fact that Brown took the cigarillos has nothing to do with what happened ten minutes later. The officer didnt think Brown was a suspect.

This makes sense. Generally a cop's initial interaction with a robbery suspect isn't going to be hassling him for jaywalking.

Police chief said they were "stopped" because they were jaywalking.

 

[timschochet]

Doesn't matter. If Johnson is the sort of guy who is involved in a robbery, I'm not trusting him as an honest narrator of events. And without his testimony, who knows what happened?

 

[whitem0nkey]

A petition on petitions.whitehouse.gov has been started.

Mike Brown Law. Requires all state, county, and local police to wear a camera.

Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera. Due to the latest accounts of deadly encounters with police, We the People, petition for the Mike Brown Law. Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera.The law shall be made in an effort to not only detour police misconduct(i.e. brutality, profiling, abuse of power), but to ensure that all police are following procedure, and to remove all question, from normally questionable police encounters. As well, as help to hold all parties within a police investigation, accountable for their actions.

Created: Aug 13, 2014

 

[hagmania]

Doesn't matter. If Johnson is the sort of guy who is involved in a robbery, I'm not trusting him as an honest narrator of events. And without his testimony, who knows what happened?

There are two other eyewitnesses.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Doesn't matter. If Johnson is the sort of guy who is involved in a robbery, I'm not trusting him as an honest narrator of events. And without his testimony, who knows what happened?

Right, but to be fair, you are an uninformed boob who constantly babbles about everything he doesnt know about and gets lots of things wrong and then constantly flip flops when that is pointed out.

Do you trust the cop? Do you trust the other two eyewitnesses?

 

[Henry Ford]

good lord. Just stop posting.

This.

I will because....I have to go now and shake my head and laugh at you people.

Happier times.

What is it with you people, somebody who is not in your little clique has an opposing view and you all can't deal with it.

Do you mean black people?

 

[whitem0nkey]

The police chief just said that the officers initial contact and the robbery were unrelated so the store video and the fact that Brown took the cigarillos has nothing to do with what happened ten minutes later. The officer didnt think Brown was a suspect.

This makes sense. Generally a cop's initial interaction with a robbery suspect isn't going to be hassling him for jaywalking.

Police chief said they were "stopped" because they were jaywalking.

So basically Mike Brown was stopped for walking while black.

 

[Slapdash]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

I thought it was 35 feet (or yards).

I'm assuming everyone realizes there is a relatively significant difference between feet/yards here, right?

I've read both, but the difference really is not material here. Either way he was shot while running away from a distance, unarmed.

 

[timschochet]

Doesn't matter. If Johnson is the sort of guy who is involved in a robbery, I'm not trusting him as an honest narrator of events. And without his testimony, who knows what happened?

Right, but to be fair, you are an uninformed boob who constantly babbles about everything he doesnt know about and gets lots of things wrong and then constantly flip flops when that is pointed out.

Do you trust the cop? Do you trust the other two eyewitnesses?

I don't know any of these people. But if the other two eyewitnesses are telling the exact same story as Johnson, that memes it more credible- but still doesn't prove it.

 

[Slapdash]

Doesn't matter. If Johnson is the sort of guy who is involved in a robbery, I'm not trusting him as an honest narrator of events. And without his testimony, who knows what happened?

Shoplifting cigarillos still makes him more credible than you.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hmmm. They're showing still photos from a robbery that occurred that the officer was investigating. Seems Mike Brown is a suspect.

You're trying too hard.

If he was a suspect why did the cop drive up and tell him to get off the street, instead of just questioning him or taking him in?

Are we sure that's true? If anything, this new information should make us question every bit of the narrative we've been fed the last few days.

If witness statements are correct it is still quite a stretch to make.....Kid stole cigars so shooting him in the back and then executing him is justified.

I don't think anyone on here is saying that.

But if the robbery happened (and it is a robbery by clear definition) then in the last 12 hours we have gone from this huge civil rights issue and this rogue cop just randomly harrassing black people to a legitimate reason for police contact, a possible reason for the officer being concerned about officer safety because I am sure it came across his little cop computer as robbery suspect at large----now here is where it gets hazy and excessive force is used and I think the officer is in trouble for his actions.

Again not jumping to conclusions here, but we have been force fed this narative that Brown was this good kid, who just wanted to better himself and was going to college to now we may have a guy robbing people and off to smoke drugs (I make that assumption because most people don't use Swishers for anything but that).

Did he deserve to die for that? No, but the script has changed and we can see why this investigation wasn't just as cut and dry as so many thought.

The media generally clings to the people who are making the most sensational noise.

You mean like the idea that Brown was murdered. Yeah, the media is having a field day with that one. The white guilt and conclusion jumping in this thread is frightening. I'm not sure exactly what it is that some of you are trying to prove, but maybe you should just let this one play out.

Boy some of you...No the idea that the media reports on a situation and actually helps inflame that situation without gathering all of the facts.....The person who posted above basically said the situation went from a rogue cop murdering a person for walking down the street to what possibly started out as a legit police action.

I don't think that anyone thought he murdered the kid for walking down the street. For challenging his authority, probably - and because of an altercation between the two that was non-life threatening, maybe, and because he was running away almost certainly. And that's what this is - and has always - been about, I think, is a cop emptying multiple rounds into a kid who wasn't threatening him or anyone else at the time he was shot multiple times, including one in the back, and killing him - then failing to report the shooting and not calling EMS for the kid.

That's a massive civil rights violation, whether or not the stop was legitimate. Frankly, if he'd just been stopped for walking in the middle of the street, that's legitimate. But it doesn't excuse what happened after that.

 

[Fennis]

I don't think that anyone thought he murdered the kid for walking down the street. For challenging his authority, probably - and because of an altercation between the two that was non-life threatening, maybe, and because he was running away almost certainly. And that's what this is - and has always - been about, I think, is a cop emptying multiple rounds into a kid who wasn't threatening him or anyone else at the time he was shot multiple times, including one in the back, and killing him - then failing to report the shooting and not calling EMS for the kid.

That's a massive civil rights violation, whether or not the stop was legitimate. Frankly, if he'd just been stopped for walking in the middle of the street, that's legitimate. But it doesn't excuse what happened after that.

 

[dickey moe]

Ferguson PD chief says initial contact between officer Wilson and Mike Brown had nothing to do with alleged theft at store.

Makes sense now why the PD waited this long to reveal info about the robbery if that incident was unrelated to the scuffle/shooting between the cop and Brown. That said, it appears to make the cop's side of the argument look even weaker.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

A petition on petitions.whitehouse.gov has been started.

Mike Brown Law. Requires all state, county, and local police to wear a camera.

Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera. Due to the latest accounts of deadly encounters with police, We the People, petition for the Mike Brown Law. Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera.The law shall be made in an effort to not only detour police misconduct(i.e. brutality, profiling, abuse of power), but to ensure that all police are following procedure, and to remove all question, from normally questionable police encounters. As well, as help to hold all parties within a police investigation, accountable for their actions.

Created: Aug 13, 2014

Long overdue.

 

[whitem0nkey]

Video

Yeah, that's not a robbery.

Im not sure how legit this is but its going around on twitter the video has a different date.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

A petition on petitions.whitehouse.gov has been started.

Mike Brown Law. Requires all state, county, and local police to wear a camera.

Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera. Due to the latest accounts of deadly encounters with police, We the People, petition for the Mike Brown Law. Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera.The law shall be made in an effort to not only detour police misconduct(i.e. brutality, profiling, abuse of power), but to ensure that all police are following procedure, and to remove all question, from normally questionable police encounters. As well, as help to hold all parties within a police investigation, accountable for their actions.

Created: Aug 13, 2014

Long overdue.

New Orleans already instituted this.

Problem: we just had a shooting of a suspect in the head this week and the cop didn't have her body camera on.

Whoops.

 

[matttyl]

Can we stop referring to this as a "robbery," as if he pistol-whipped the cashier and emptied out the register? The guy apparently stole some cigars. That's more akin to shoplifting. Yeah, I understand he shoved the cashier, but come on.

This new information does make me doubt that the officer really just harassed the Brown and his friend for walking down the street, but it doesn't even come remotely close to justifying the shooting.

Not sure about Missouri but..."Under California Penal Code section 211, a person is guilty of committing the crime of Robbery when they take the property of another by means of force or fear. In 1983, the California Court of Appeal found in the case of People v. Estes (1983) 147 Cal.App.3d 23 , 194 Cal.Rptr. 909, that a shoplifter is guilty of the crime of robbery if they use force or fear to escape a store after the taking of the property. "

That's great, but that's also not how people use that term in everyday English.

And the left was very quick in articles posted above to call this a "toy gun" in the John Crawford case. That's not exactly a super soaker.

It goes both ways.

 

[Henry Ford]

Video

Yeah, that's not a robbery.

Im not sure how legit this is but its going around on twitter the video has a different date.

Yup. Was going to post this. Watching the video, though, it looks like an 8.

 

[[icon]]

I don't think the context changes at all. It is still this: Cop shoots a defenseless kid from 30 yards away.

The bolded is according to witnesses. It'll be interesting to see what the forensic results on the bullet wounds show.

I thought it was 30 feet away... now it's 30 yards away?

Someone page me when he was gunned down from 30 miles away.

I thought it was 35 feet (or yards).

I'm assuming everyone realizes there is a relatively significant difference between feet/yards here, right?

I've read both, but the difference really is not material here. Either way he was shot while running away from a distance, unarmed.

a couple steps plus momentum could carry a 6'4" tall man 30-35" feet... obviously not good to shoot someone in the back from 5-10 feet away but a bit more excusable as a "heat of the moment thing" as the person is still within range of being a threat.

Shooting someone in the back 30-35 yards away would require taking a good bit of time to line up the shot on a suspect who is WELL outside of range of being any sort of threat. It's absolutely inexcusable under any explanation.

Clarifying for the nits who love to mince words... I'm NOT saying shooting someone in the back at the closer rage is excusable... just easier to see as a "heat of moment" thing than the (much) longer distance.

 

[Fennis]

Video

Yeah, that's not a robbery.

Im not sure how legit this is but its going around on twitter the video has a different date.

Yup. Was going to post this. Watching the video, though, it looks like an 8.

there is no chance the police are creating evidence like that. it would never, ever hold up.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

A petition on petitions.whitehouse.gov has been started.

Mike Brown Law. Requires all state, county, and local police to wear a camera.

Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera. Due to the latest accounts of deadly encounters with police, We the People, petition for the Mike Brown Law. Create a bill, sign into law, and set aside funds to require all state,county, and local police, to wear a camera.The law shall be made in an effort to not only detour police misconduct(i.e. brutality, profiling, abuse of power), but to ensure that all police are following procedure, and to remove all question, from normally questionable police encounters. As well, as help to hold all parties within a police investigation, accountable for their actions.

Created: Aug 13, 2014

Long overdue.

New Orleans already instituted this.

Problem: we just had a shooting of a suspect in the head this week and the cop didn't have her body camera on.

Whoops.

I'm not suggesting it will make rainbows and unicorns appear. But it's a better setup than we have now.