Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (4 Viewers)

[msommer]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

 

[D_House]

to the Post article from Radley Balko, thanks for sharing. He does great work on the US criminal justice system from a libertarian perspective.

 

[Otis]

Are police in general allowed to shoot an unarmed unidentified person running away from them in the back for not complying with a directive?

Mostly no, but sometimes yes.

 

[fourd]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

 

[msommer]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

 

[parasaurolophus]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

 

[avoiding injuries]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

 

[TobiasFunke]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

 

[kentric]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

You'd be running a fine line there by initiating such a program. Even if you we providing it as an option, I bet you'd be viewed as oppressing minorities by requiring them to do menial labor. Plus, you'd receive derision by taking mothers away from their children.

 

[Sand]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

 

[TobiasFunke]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Here's some cool t-shirts on sale at a police convention in Oakland.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. The concern about police behavior is totally overblown. It's just one or two bad apples.

 

[jonessed]

Here's some cool t-shirts on sale at a police convention in Oakland.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. The concern about police behavior is totally overblown. It's just one or two bad apples.

We welcome your support for the ouster if Jean Quan.

 

[Sand]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

About 1/3 of our major metropolitan areas are insolvent - as in just about to Detroit bankrupcy levels. Those numbers speak for themselves.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Here's some cool t-shirts on sale at a police convention in Oakland.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. The concern about police behavior is totally overblown. It's just one or two bad apples.

We welcome your support for the ouster if Jean Quan.

Surprised you didn't blame Obama.

 

[TobiasFunke]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

About 1/3 of our major metropolitan areas are insolvent - as in just about to Detroit bankrupcy levels. Those numbers speak for themselves.

If they speak for themselves then let them do so. Give me a link with some hard data instead of just passing along what Fox News tells you in between interviews with the cast of Duck Dynasty about how we should deal with ISIL.

I googled municipal insolvency, and the number I got for declared bankruptcies was 0.06%. I guess the other 33.27% of them just haven't gotten around to filing the paperwork.

 

[jonessed]

Here's some cool t-shirts on sale at a police convention in Oakland.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. The concern about police behavior is totally overblown. It's just one or two bad apples.

We welcome your support for the ouster if Jean Quan.

Surprised you didn't blame Obama.

You poor, persecuted thing. Do you need a raise? Would that make things better?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Here's some cool t-shirts on sale at a police convention in Oakland.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. The concern about police behavior is totally overblown. It's just one or two bad apples.

We welcome your support for the ouster if Jean Quan.

Surprised you didn't blame Obama.

You poor, persecuted thing. Do you need a raise? Would that make things better?

A raise is always welcome of course, but I'm good. Thanks for asking. I do appreciate your concern, even if the expression of concern is the result of your complete inability to make a relevant point or offer any insight. I hope all is well with you, too.

 

[jonessed]

Here's some cool t-shirts on sale at a police convention in Oakland.

Yeah, you guys are probably right. The concern about police behavior is totally overblown. It's just one or two bad apples.

We welcome your support for the ouster if Jean Quan.

Surprised you didn't blame Obama.

You poor, persecuted thing. Do you need a raise? Would that make things better?

A raise is always welcome of course, but I'm good. Thanks for asking. I do appreciate your concern, even if the expression of concern is the result of your complete inability to make a relevant point or offer any insight. I hope all is well with you, too.

Gosh darn it I admire your stiff upper lip. I promise I will do my best to keep those rascally Republicans from mucking up your hard work. It's a tough job but someone's gotta do it.

See ya on the green!

 

[fourd]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

Yes, the people in power and benefiting from the current system are ready to reform themselves. And in the process remove their jobs. Sadly the people that elect them think it's a good idea for this to happen - except not to their people. Just look at how much could be saved by consolidating school districts. But of course no one wants to give up that valuable local control.

 

[Road Warriors]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

How about a simple campaign to let the citizens know they can go to court and work out a payment plan for their violations ( and not go to jail ) if they can't afford to pay. Try to stop the cycle from beginning.

Ending up with jail time that originates from speeding or an expired inspection is not what the justice system should be doing, IMO.

 

[jonessed]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

Yes, the people in power and benefiting from the current system are ready to reform themselves. And in the process remove their jobs. Sadly the people that elect them think it's a good idea for this to happen - except not to their people. Just look at how much could be saved by consolidating school districts. But of course no one wants to give up that valuable local control.

I've seen two different school district mergers first-hand and neither has been pretty. The cost savings should theoretically be in administrative overhead, but those jobs are largely protected so there was little to no actual savings.

The schools ended up in-fighting when things became politically charged, the good teachers left, charter schools opened up, and the district ended up in dire straits because of the lost revenues.

Very messy.

 

[StrikeS2k]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

My choices re: breaking laws with monetary penalties are directly proportional to my ability to pay said penalties. For example, I regularly use the car pool lane when driving to work because they rarely enforce the law. That's a choice I make and it saves me 15-30 minutes of driving time per day to do it. I got popped about 6 months ago and it cost me about $100. That's once in the year and a half I've been making this choice. If I were poor I would probably choose differently.

 

[TobiasFunke]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

My choices re: breaking laws with monetary penalties are directly proportional to my ability to pay said penalties. For example, I regularly use the car pool lane when driving to work because they rarely enforce the law. That's a choice I make and it saves me 15-30 minutes of driving time per day to do it. I got popped about 6 months ago and it cost me about $100. That's once in the year and a half I've been making this choice. If I were poor I would probably choose differently.

I suspect that if you were poor you would still commit the occasional moving or parking violation, just like every other poor person in America (unless one of our two esteemed law-abiding posters is also poor).

 

[Sand]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

About 1/3 of our major metropolitan areas are insolvent - as in just about to Detroit bankrupcy levels. Those numbers speak for themselves.

If they speak for themselves then let them do so. Give me a link with some hard data instead of just passing along what Fox News tells you in between interviews with the cast of Duck Dynasty about how we should deal with ISIL.

I googled municipal insolvency, and the number I got for declared bankruptcies was 0.06%. I guess the other 33.27% of them just haven't gotten around to filing the paperwork.

Decent roundup, though I've seen better and can't find them. Cities that are effectively bankrupt as of right now (not a comprehensive list): San Diego, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Scranton, Harrisburg, Oakland, (and the list goes on).

 

[StrikeS2k]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

My choices re: breaking laws with monetary penalties are directly proportional to my ability to pay said penalties. For example, I regularly use the car pool lane when driving to work because they rarely enforce the law. That's a choice I make and it saves me 15-30 minutes of driving time per day to do it. I got popped about 6 months ago and it cost me about $100. That's once in the year and a half I've been making this choice. If I were poor I would probably choose differently.

I suspect that if you were poor you would still commit the occasional moving or parking violation, just like every other poor person in America (unless one of our two esteemed law-abiding posters is also poor).

If a person can afford a car maybe they're not THAT poor.......

 

[TobiasFunke]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

No they are proposing to make fewer, larger municipalities so services could be optimized and be cheaper to run per capita

Yes, that's exactly how government works.

It's government either way, genius.

You're probably right, though. The small municipalities discussed in the article seem to be doing a bang-up job. No need for reform.

About 1/3 of our major metropolitan areas are insolvent - as in just about to Detroit bankrupcy levels. Those numbers speak for themselves.

If they speak for themselves then let them do so. Give me a link with some hard data instead of just passing along what Fox News tells you in between interviews with the cast of Duck Dynasty about how we should deal with ISIL.

I googled municipal insolvency, and the number I got for declared bankruptcies was 0.06%. I guess the other 33.27% of them just haven't gotten around to filing the paperwork.

Decent roundup, though I've seen better and can't find them. Cities that are effectively bankrupt as of right now (not a comprehensive list): San Diego, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Scranton, Harrisburg, Oakland, (and the list goes on).

Sorry, no. A blog post from a guy who links to his own previous blog posts to support his assertions doesn't quite cut it, nor does your unsupported list.

I especially liked that he ended with this: "The bankruptcies in California cities and Detroit provide a backdrop of what's about to happen. In the meantime, expect an avalanche of city debt downgrades." Of course the blog entry is now 14 months old, I'm not aware of any other city declaring bankruptcy, and a google search for "city debt downgrades" gives me only three municipal debt downgrades since the blog entry (Atlantic City, Minneapolis, Des Moines), all of them by Moody's and apparently a product of them changing their rating formula. From the Des Moines article:

The downgrade applies to $437 million of outstanding general obligation debt. Moody’s review was initiated January 15, 2014 and incorporated new methodology for assessing the security of local government debt.

The press release also noted that the outlook for Des Moines’ credit profile is stable.

Moody’s new methodology for rating local municipalities puts an increased weight on pension obligations. Despite the downgrade, Moody’s stable outlook for Des Moines implies the confidence the ratings agency has in the city’s capacity to adequately address its pension obligations. Des Moines benefits from a large and stable tax base, its role as the state of Iowa’s capital and the primary economic and population center, and a recent history of running surpluses.

Look out for that avalanche!

 

[timschochet]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

My choices re: breaking laws with monetary penalties are directly proportional to my ability to pay said penalties. For example, I regularly use the car pool lane when driving to work because they rarely enforce the law. That's a choice I make and it saves me 15-30 minutes of driving time per day to do it. I got popped about 6 months ago and it cost me about $100. That's once in the year and a half I've been making this choice. If I were poor I would probably choose differently.

Well this is very revealing. So on a regular basis you break more laws than illegal immigrants do? Perhaps you're the one that ought to be deported. Personally, the main reason I don't drive in car pool lanes by myself, ever, is not because I fear enforcement but because it's wrong. Those lanes are designed for more than one person so as to ease congestion.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

It is funny that you pretend(I say pretend because I don't think you are stupid enough to actually believe this) people with all of these driving violations are just unlucky and got caught the one time they did something on accident. The woman they pointed out had 4 violations outstanding and was just involved in an accident. You paint it as a poor unlucky woman that has had 5 driving issues in her whole life and just happened to get caught for all of them and couldn't afford to pay for a single one of them.

ZOMG What are the odds!?!?!?!

Far more likely is that she is a habitual offender and breaks the law 25 times as often as she gets caught for. So while I may have had expired plates for a few days 5 years ago, my plates haven't been expired since and weren't expired before. I have never received a speeding ticket. Not because I am lucky, because I don't really speed. I will occasionally go up to 5 over, but we both know damn well these tickets being discussed aren't for "Speeding 1-5 miles over limit". If they were, you would have everybody on this board fully supporting changes.

Seat belt tickets are $10 in Missouri. What do you think they should be lowered to for poor people? $3?

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

It is funny that you pretend(I say pretend because I don't think you are stupid enough to actually believe this) people with all of these driving violations are just unlucky and got caught the one time they did something on accident. The woman they pointed out had 4 violations outstanding and was just involved in an accident. You paint it as a poor unlucky woman that has had 5 driving issues in her whole life and just happened to get caught for all of them and couldn't afford to pay for a single one of them.

ZOMG What are the odds!?!?!?!

Far more likely is that she is a habitual offender and breaks the law 25 times as often as she gets caught for. So while I may have had expired plates for a few days 5 years ago, my plates haven't been expired since and weren't expired before. I have never received a speeding ticket. Not because I am lucky, because I don't really speed. I will occasionally go up to 5 over, but we both know damn well these tickets being discussed aren't for "Speeding 1-5 miles over limit". If they were, you would have everybody on this board fully supporting changes.

Seat belt tickets are $10 in Missouri. What do you think they should be lowered to for poor people? $3?

Did you actually read the article? It's not about one person.

I find it odd that you think your personal experiences are relevant, though. The whole point is that your personal experiences (and mine) in dealing with law enforcement are vastly different from the experiences of the people in these small towns.

 

[Sweet J]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

My choices re: breaking laws with monetary penalties are directly proportional to my ability to pay said penalties. For example, I regularly use the car pool lane when driving to work because they rarely enforce the law. That's a choice I make and it saves me 15-30 minutes of driving time per day to do it. I got popped about 6 months ago and it cost me about $100. That's once in the year and a half I've been making this choice. If I were poor I would probably choose differently.

Wow. If I think you are a dirtbag, you've sunk pretty low.

 

[StrikeS2k]

These arent violent criminals, says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

Get out of here with that personal responsibility nonsense.

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

My choices re: breaking laws with monetary penalties are directly proportional to my ability to pay said penalties. For example, I regularly use the car pool lane when driving to work because they rarely enforce the law. That's a choice I make and it saves me 15-30 minutes of driving time per day to do it. I got popped about 6 months ago and it cost me about $100. That's once in the year and a half I've been making this choice. If I were poor I would probably choose differently.

Well this is very revealing. So on a regular basis you break more laws than illegal immigrants do? Perhaps you're the one that ought to be deported.Personally, the main reason I don't drive in car pool lanes by myself, ever, is not because I fear enforcement but because it's wrong. Those lanes are designed for more than one person so as to ease congestion.

 

[timschochet]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

Yup. Even a normally diplomatic guy like Sweet J can see it. It's a huge dooshbag move to use the HOV lanes on a regular basis. Who does he think built the road for him to use? The same people who are asking him not to use the HOV lane, of course.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

The fact that you think it's wrong to "abuse" the HOV lane but think it's RIGHT for illegals to break the law daily is very revealing. What's funny is that you, and others, are chastising me for this yet all of you (according to Tobias) have broken laws as well. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy? Get off your high horse.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

Yup. Even a normally diplomatic guy like Sweet J can see it. It's a huge dooshbag move to use the HOV lanes on a regular basis. Who does he think built the road for him to use? The same people who are asking him not to use the HOV lane, of course.

Got a picture of Obama, or even my local leaders, working construction? If not, I don't think build means what you think it does. If you're referring to making the decision to build the road, I suspect that had a lot to do with them fulfilling their constituents desires. IOW, doing their jobs.

 

[timschochet]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

The fact that you think it's wrong to "abuse" the HOV lane but think it's RIGHT for illegals to break the law daily is very revealing. What's funny is that you, and others, are chastising me for this yet all of you (according to Tobias) have broken laws as well. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy? Get off your high horse.

illegals don't break the law daily. Most of them broke the law once by crossing the border, which is a misdemeanor. Whatever ones feelings about illegals, pretty sure almost anyone reading this would agree that YOU are a hypocrite for calling out anybody for committing a misdemeanor. I never wrote that you are a bad guy. To me, murderers and robbers and rapists are bad guys. I simply wrote that it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane, and even worse to do it on a regular basis. Like Tobias wrote, it's being a ########. If that puts me on a high horse, so be it.

 

[Plorfu]

:carpoolchat: activated.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

The fact that you think it's wrong to "abuse" the HOV lane but think it's RIGHT for illegals to break the law daily is very revealing. What's funny is that you, and others, are chastising me for this yet all of you (according to Tobias) have broken laws as well. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy? Get off your high horse.

illegals don't break the law daily. Most of them broke the law once by crossing the border, which is a misdemeanor. Whatever ones feelings about illegals, pretty sure almost anyone reading this would agree that YOU are a hypocrite for calling out anybody for committing a misdemeanor.I never wrote that you are a bad guy. To me, murderers and robbers and rapists are bad guys. I simply wrote that it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane, and even worse to do it on a regular basis. Like Tobias wrote, it's being a ########. If that puts me on a high horse, so be it.

Why is what I'm doing worse than speeding, or any other traffic infraction you probably commit regularly? It's not. A doosh is the guy who tailgated me this morning and then sped off at 80 MPH in to a sea of cars such that he then had to slow down almost immediately. He got a whopping two cars ahead of me, while performing two dangerous moves. That's a doosh. Working traffic laws is something we all do all the time.

 

[timschochet]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

Yup. Even a normally diplomatic guy like Sweet J can see it. It's a huge dooshbag move to use the HOV lanes on a regular basis. Who does he think built the road for him to use? The same people who are asking him not to use the HOV lane, of course.

Got a picture of Obama, or even my local leaders, working construction? If not, I don't think build means what you think it does. If you're referring to making the decision to build the road, I suspect that had a lot to do with them fulfilling their constituents desires. IOW, doing their jobs.

wow. You've certainly been obnoxious in the past, but I don't think I've ever seen you make as big of a fool of yourself as you are right now in this thread , attempting to defend your regular violations of the car pool lane.

 

[parasaurolophus]

This is one of the most amazing coincidences I've ever seen. If you'd asked me yesterday I'd tell you that there was no such thing as a person who had driven at or under the speed limit while wearing a seat belt, and had never accidentally let an inspection or license renewal expire, and had never let a meter run out, or misread a parking sign, or double-parked for 30 seconds to run a quick errand, or failed to comply with any other motor vehicle-related law you can name. I mean it just seems impossible, right? Just the speed limit thing alone seems like it would rule out every American, you'd think.

And yet I was wrong. Here we've got not just one, but TWO of these amazing law abiders! And they're both posters in the FFA! What are the odds?

It is funny that you pretend(I say pretend because I don't think you are stupid enough to actually believe this) people with all of these driving violations are just unlucky and got caught the one time they did something on accident. The woman they pointed out had 4 violations outstanding and was just involved in an accident. You paint it as a poor unlucky woman that has had 5 driving issues in her whole life and just happened to get caught for all of them and couldn't afford to pay for a single one of them.

ZOMG What are the odds!?!?!?!

Far more likely is that she is a habitual offender and breaks the law 25 times as often as she gets caught for. So while I may have had expired plates for a few days 5 years ago, my plates haven't been expired since and weren't expired before. I have never received a speeding ticket. Not because I am lucky, because I don't really speed. I will occasionally go up to 5 over, but we both know damn well these tickets being discussed aren't for "Speeding 1-5 miles over limit". If they were, you would have everybody on this board fully supporting changes.

Seat belt tickets are $10 in Missouri. What do you think they should be lowered to for poor people? $3?

Did you actually read the article? It's not about one person.

I find it odd that you think your personal experiences are relevant, though. The whole point is that your personal experiences (and mine) in dealing with law enforcement are vastly different from the experiences of the people in these small towns.

The article devotes basically a whole page on her and we aren't allowed to point out that she isn't just unlucky? I know it is convenient for you to try and dismiss, but I didn't bring her up. They did. A lot.

A couple of those fines were for speeding, one was for failure to wear her seatbelt, and most of the rest were for what defense attorneys in the St. Louis area have come to call “poverty violations” — driving with a suspended license, expired plates, expired registration, and a failure to provide proof of insurance.

The woman is a terrible law breaking driver. She was just in an accident. She probably doesn't have insurance. She doesn't belong on the road. I actually can't believe people have the nerve to trot her out there as proof of a system gone wrong instead of proof of somebody abusing the system.

“These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

I don't make the same mistakes they do. I try to follow the laws, not abuse them and then complain about the system.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't think there's anything particularly funny about me writing that I think it's wrong to abuse the car pool lane. That you do is also very revealing.

Yup. Even a normally diplomatic guy like Sweet J can see it. It's a huge dooshbag move to use the HOV lanes on a regular basis. Who does he think built the road for him to use? The same people who are asking him not to use the HOV lane, of course.

At least there is one thing we agree on.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I usually just #### on the bathroom floor at work. Although there is a no ####ting on the floor policy, it's rarely enforced. /strikes2k

 

[kentric]

I usually just #### on the bathroom floor at work. Although there is a no ####ting on the floor policy, it's rarely enforced. /strikes2k

That's ok because he works with alot of liltte *****.

eta. Can the mods please change the title to "StrikeS2k ---- Law Breaker"

 

[Gary Coal Man]

AP Source: US to Investigate Ferguson Police

The Justice Department plans to open an investigation into the practices of the Ferguson Police Department following an officer's shooting last month of an unarmed black man in the Missouri town, a person briefed on the matter said Wednesday night.

The person said the investigation could be announced as early as Thursday. Missouri officials were notified Wednesday of the investigation.

The investigation will look at the practices of the police department, including patterns of stops, arrests and use-of-force, as well as the training the officers receive, the person said.

The investigation is separate from an ongoing civil rights investigation the Justice Department is conducting into the shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown by Officer Darren Wilson on Aug. 9.

The Justice Department's civil rights division routinely investigates individual police departments when there are allegations of systemic abuse or other problems. The department, for instance, issued a scathing report in April that faulted Albuquerque, New Mexico, police for a pattern of excessive force and called for the police to overhaul its internal affairs unit and change policies on deadly encounters. Many of the investigations end with a federal mandate to make significant changes to policies and practices.

I have no problem with the DOJ investigation. Such investigations should be more common because, as I stated earlier in this thread, I don't trust police to police their own. Should be interesting to see where, if anywhere, the investigation leads.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

New York Times

At Risk in Senate, Democrats Seek to Rally Blacks

WASHINGTON — With their Senate majority imperiled, Democrats are trying to mobilize African-Americans outraged by the shooting in Ferguson, Mo., to help them retain control of at least one chamber of Congress for President Obama’s final two years in office.

In black churches and on black talk radio, African-American civic leaders have begun invoking the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, along with conservative calls to impeach Mr. Obama, as they urge black voters to channel their anger by voting Democratic in the midterm elections, in which minority turnout is typically lower.

“Ferguson has made it crystal clear to the African-American community and others that we’ve got to go to the polls,” said Representative John Lewis, Democrat of Georgia and a civil-rights leader. “You participate and vote, and you can have some control over what happens to your child and your country.”

 

[BustedKnuckles]

good lord....................

 

[kentric]

New York Times

At Risk in Senate, Democrats Seek to Rally Blacks

WASHINGTON — With their Senate majority imperiled, Democrats are trying to mobilize African-Americans outraged by the shooting in Ferguson, Mo., to help them retain control of at least one chamber of Congress for President Obama’s final two years in office.

In black churches and on black talk radio, African-American civic leaders have begun invoking the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, along with conservative calls to impeach Mr. Obama, as they urge black voters to channel their anger by voting Democratic in the midterm elections, in which minority turnout is typically lower.

“Ferguson has made it crystal clear to the African-American community and others that we’ve got to go to the polls,” said Representative John Lewis, Democrat of Georgia and a civil-rights leader. “You participate and vote, and you can have some control over what happens to your child and your country.”

Its always good to express outrage against the man to get out the vote. Smart move here for Congressmen in high AA communities.

 

[timschochet]

New York Times

At Risk in Senate, Democrats Seek to Rally Blacks

WASHINGTON With their Senate majority imperiled, Democrats are trying to mobilize African-Americans outraged by the shooting in Ferguson, Mo., to help them retain control of at least one chamber of Congress for President Obamas final two years in office.

In black churches and on black talk radio, African-American civic leaders have begun invoking the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, along with conservative calls to impeach Mr. Obama, as they urge black voters to channel their anger by voting Democratic in the midterm elections, in which minority turnout is typically lower.

Ferguson has made it crystal clear to the African-American community and others that weve got to go to the polls, said Representative John Lewis, Democrat of Georgia and a civil-rights leader. You participate and vote, and you can have some control over what happens to your child and your country.

Its always good to express outrage against the man to get out the vote. Smart move here for Congressmen in high AA communities.

just like going into conservative areas and shouting "benghazzziiiii!!!"

 

[msommer]

“These aren’t violent criminals,” says Thomas Harvey, another of the three co-founders of ArchCity Defenders. “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they don’t have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that don’t allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you can’t pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you can’t get to court, you get an arrest warrant.”

What do the Arch City Defenders propose? If you are poor you get to drive around with expired plates and speed whenever you want? That is pretty much what they are saying.

I'm personally a big fan of allowing non-criminal offenders the option of performing huge amounts of community service in the community they were ticketed in instead of paying fines. A program allowing for work in community beautification projects, cleanup, landscaping, aid to needy families, etc. would do wonders for a lot of the areas where people are habitually ticketed.

While I would be in favor of that I think too many communities depend on those fines as part of their budget.

Then rezone the communities so services can achieve benefits of scale and fewer fines will be needed

You know what would really help lower fines and penalties? Not breaking laws.

that wouldn't solve the insolvency issue in the small municipalities