Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[kentric]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

The article I posted has your answer to #2

Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up.

She said Brown was facing Wilson when Brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. The wound to the top of Brown’s head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position toward the shooter; the shot was instantly fatal.

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.

Forensic shmoresnic - Time to go loot and riot!

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

I hope you're wrong too and it kind of just dies out like Zimmerman/Martin. The longer this goes the less likely there will be extreme violence.

 

[kentric]

Wow, GrandpaRox doubling down on the hateful stupidity. Impressive.

There are several pathologists on the radio this morning who are taking issue with Dr. Melenik's conclusions. I'm not sure the autopsy tells us much more than we know before. As I wrote earlier, I think Brown was a thug, but "he was going for my gun" is the most common defense made by police officers whenever an unarmed person is shot, so it's reasonable to be skeptical about this. And of course it still doesn't answer why Wilson fired so many bullets into Brown after the altercation at the car. There can only be two justifications for that: either Wilson was reasonably afraid for his life, or he was reasonably afraid for the lives of others. If either of these factors are unreasonable or didn't exist, then its an unwarranted killing.

It is obvious that you have never been in a situation where you feared for your life PLUS had the means to defend yourself. In 99% of the cases a reasonable person being attacked will not fire once and wait to see what the outcome is. When the the fear is palpable and the adrenaline flowing if myself or a member of my family is being attacked I can almost guarantee that my weapon will be emptied when all is said and done.

I admire and applaud those that can show restraint and shoot only once or twice and determine the outcome, those people in those circumstances are very very rare.

Even a trained officer when in fight or flight mode is still human with human fears and reactions. I feel bad that you cannot see that.

Also just for your well being I would not care if the person or persons were white, black, brown, yellow or pink, my reaction would be the same. It is really not a race thing it is a human thing.

It would help if you know what you were talking about. But as usual you talk and think out of ignorance of the situation and how Tim would like to think things should work out instead of reality.

With regard to the bolded, here is what I wrote on October 18:

At this point, Wilson killed Brown. Which is perfectly understandable. Brown had tried to kill Wilson. You or I in such a situation, with a gun in our hands, would probably act the same way. I'm sure Wilson was terrified and enraged. And I strongly doubt he was making any racial consideration whatsoever. He was simply thinking, or FEELING: this guy just tried to kill me, he was going to kill me, I can't let him get away. And so Wilson lost his cool and fired. But policemen must be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. HE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO LOSE HIS COOL. That's an easier thing to say than to do. Realistically, cops lose their cool all the time.

I stand by that.

It's impressive how absolutely clueless you are about reality in this thread...

True. There is no proof that Brown tried to kill Wilson.

 

[[icon]]

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

Am I really supposed to care if they're stupid enough to burn a bunch of liquor stores and check-into-cash places in their own neighborhood? Half of these #######s don't care about justice, they're just looking for an excuse to act like a fool.

If they're that stupid, let them burn their own neighborhood down.... then try to make their beds in the ashes.

 

[squistion]

There is a difference between a black person and a "N"

OK...

 

[timschochet]

There is a difference between a black person and a "N"

OK...

He's going to quote Chris Rock in defense, I predict.

 

[GrandpaRox]

Wow, GrandpaRox doubling down on the hateful stupidity. Impressive.

There are several pathologists on the radio this morning who are taking issue with Dr. Melenik's conclusions. I'm not sure the autopsy tells us much more than we know before. As I wrote earlier, I think Brown was a thug, but "he was going for my gun" is the most common defense made by police officers whenever an unarmed person is shot, so it's reasonable to be skeptical about this. And of course it still doesn't answer why Wilson fired so many bullets into Brown after the altercation at the car. There can only be two justifications for that: either Wilson was reasonably afraid for his life, or he was reasonably afraid for the lives of others. If either of these factors are unreasonable or didn't exist, then its an unwarranted killing.

It is obvious that you have never been in a situation where you feared for your life PLUS had the means to defend yourself. In 99% of the cases a reasonable person being attacked will not fire once and wait to see what the outcome is. When the the fear is palpable and the adrenaline flowing if myself or a member of my family is being attacked I can almost guarantee that my weapon will be emptied when all is said and done.

I admire and applaud those that can show restraint and shoot only once or twice and determine the outcome, those people in those circumstances are very very rare.

Even a trained officer when in fight or flight mode is still human with human fears and reactions. I feel bad that you cannot see that.

Also just for your well being I would not care if the person or persons were white, black, brown, yellow or pink, my reaction would be the same. It is really not a race thing it is a human thing.

It would help if you know what you were talking about. But as usual you talk and think out of ignorance of the situation and how Tim would like to think things should work out instead of reality.

With regard to the bolded, here is what I wrote on October 18:

At this point, Wilson killed Brown. Which is perfectly understandable. Brown had tried to kill Wilson. You or I in such a situation, with a gun in our hands, would probably act the same way. I'm sure Wilson was terrified and enraged. And I strongly doubt he was making any racial consideration whatsoever. He was simply thinking, or FEELING: this guy just tried to kill me, he was going to kill me, I can't let him get away. And so Wilson lost his cool and fired. But policemen must be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. HE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO LOSE HIS COOL. That's an easier thing to say than to do. Realistically, cops lose their cool all the time.

I stand by that.

As for your feelings on this matter, you've made yourself very clear. You want a riot in order to show the world what "these people" are like. You hope the city burns down.

No I hope when justice has been served EVERYONE accepts the verdict and life goes on as normal as it can these days. But if it does not I do hope the world sees the actions of the "protesters" and takes it for what it is worth. Lord know we cannot talk about it as a society without being branded as racists and haters. It is what it is and should be seen as such.

 

[tom22406]

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

Am I really supposed to care if they're stupid enough to burn a bunch of liquor stores and check-into-cash places in their own neighborhood? Half of these #######s don't care about justice, they're just looking for an excuse to act like a fool.

If they're that stupid, let them burn their own neighborhood down.... then try to make their beds in the ashes.

I'm not expecting everyone to care,you clearly don't.I don't want to see this go past what was done already(using your examples) and my fear is it will.

I'm still waiting on more facts to emerge before taking any side on this but as more and more trickle out this has the makings of getting really out of hand IF they don't get what they feel is the right decision here.

 

[[icon]]

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

Am I really supposed to care if they're stupid enough to burn a bunch of liquor stores and check-into-cash places in their own neighborhood? Half of these #######s don't care about justice, they're just looking for an excuse to act like a fool.

If they're that stupid, let them burn their own neighborhood down.... then try to make their beds in the ashes.

I'm not expecting everyone to care,you clearly don't.I don't want to see this go past what was done already(using your examples) and my fear is it will.

I'm still waiting on more facts to emerge before taking any side on this but as more and more trickle out this has the makings of getting really out of hand IF they don't get what they feel is the right decision here.

Since when was justice about appeasing the restless minority instead of isolating and reporting facts? I don't care if anyone gets what "they feel" is the right decision here. I care about getting the ACTUAL right decision. If reality of the situation doesn't jive with their preconceived notions... so be it. Life sucks, get a helmet.

I'm not rooting for any riots either, but I'm also not ready to pander to a bunch of mouth breathers hell-bent on tearing #### up. I encourage STL residents to concealed carry and exercise their right to self-defense if anyone presents a threat to them or their family.

 

[GrandpaRox]

There is a difference between a black person and a "N"

OK...

Yeah everyone knows that is only fact, just can't be talked about rationally. That is a huge part of of problem. This of course is from a white perspective which is all I can talk too. It is only getting worse the more this happens.

 

[tom22406]

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

Am I really supposed to care if they're stupid enough to burn a bunch of liquor stores and check-into-cash places in their own neighborhood? Half of these #######s don't care about justice, they're just looking for an excuse to act like a fool.

If they're that stupid, let them burn their own neighborhood down.... then try to make their beds in the ashes.

I'm not expecting everyone to care,you clearly don't.I don't want to see this go past what was done already(using your examples) and my fear is it will.

I'm still waiting on more facts to emerge before taking any side on this but as more and more trickle out this has the makings of getting really out of hand IF they don't get what they feel is the right decision here.

Since when was justice about appeasing the restless minority instead of isolating and reporting facts? I don't care if anyone gets what "they feel" is the right decision here. I care about getting the ACTUAL right decision. If reality of the situation doesn't jive with their preconceived notions... so be it. Life sucks, get a helmet.

I'm not rooting for any riots either, but I'm also not ready to pander to a bunch of mouth breathers hell-bent on tearing #### up.

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

Am I really supposed to care if they're stupid enough to burn a bunch of liquor stores and check-into-cash places in their own neighborhood? Half of these #######s don't care about justice, they're just looking for an excuse to act like a fool.

If they're that stupid, let them burn their own neighborhood down.... then try to make their beds in the ashes.

I'm not expecting everyone to care,you clearly don't.I don't want to see this go past what was done already(using your examples) and my fear is it will.

I'm still waiting on more facts to emerge before taking any side on this but as more and more trickle out this has the makings of getting really out of hand IF they don't get what they feel is the right decision here.

Since when was justice about appeasing the restless minority instead of isolating and reporting facts? I don't care if anyone gets what "they feel" is the right decision here. I care about getting the ACTUAL right decision.

You have made your position pretty clear.The bolded we can agree on.

 

[squistion]

There is a difference between a black person and a "N"

OK...

Yeah everyone knows that is only fact, just can't be talked about rationally. That is a huge part of of problem. This of course is from a white perspective which is all I can talk too. It is only getting worse the more this happens.

No, everyone does not consider that a fact. From my experience, only bigots see two classes of black people, distinguishing a "N" from the good black folk.

 

[mcintyre1]

By the way Tim, not that it matters but my granddaughter is dating a black guy "Justin" and they will be here for a BBQ this weekend. He is a nice young man, is respectful, has a good job and is good for my granddaughter. Neither myself or my wife have absolutely any problem with him. I know none of this matters to you or anyone else on this board, but it is fact.

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

It is not the color of their skin, it s the content of their character.

I don't expect you to understand that concept.

You can't be real.

Why do we let thinly veiled racists remain on this board, again?

 

[squistion]

By the way Tim, not that it matters but my granddaughter is dating a black guy "Justin" and they will be here for a BBQ this weekend. He is a nice young man, is respectful, has a good job and is good for my granddaughter. Neither myself or my wife have absolutely any problem with him. I know none of this matters to you or anyone else on this board, but it is fact.

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

It is not the color of their skin, it s the content of their character.

I don't expect you to understand that concept.

You can't be real.

Why do we let thinly veiled racists remain on this board, again?

That is not very thinly veiled.

 

[Doug B]

From my experience, only bigots see two classes of black people, distinguishing a "N" from the good black folk.

There must be loads of black bigots then because I've heard numerous black people make that distinction. Makes sense. I'd want to distance myself from getting miscategorized with the Ns, too.

Remove the loaded language, and the concept is the same for all people: disdain for the subculture of deadbeat users who can never regognize nor work to correct the problems they themselves have the power to fix.

Such-minded subcultures exist independent of skin color, religion, etc. Some, but not all, socially-sanctioned groupings (aka "races") are broadly categorized by these particular negative subcultures, for better or worse.

 

[Bucky86]

By the way Tim, not that it matters but my granddaughter is dating a black guy "Justin" and they will be here for a BBQ this weekend. He is a nice young man, is respectful, has a good job and is good for my granddaughter. Neither myself or my wife have absolutely any problem with him. I know none of this matters to you or anyone else on this board, but it is fact.

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

It is not the color of their skin, it s the content of their character.

I don't expect you to understand that concept.

You can't be real.

Why do we let thinly veiled racists remain on this board, again?

That is not very thinly veiled.

The mods don't care about racists. All they care about is filtering dirty words and hiding boobies.

 

[lod01]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

 

[lod01]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

The article I posted has your answer to #2

Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up.

She said Brown was facing Wilson when Brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. The wound to the top of Brown’s head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position toward the shooter; the shot was instantly fatal.

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.

Forensic shmoresnic - Time to go loot and riot!

If the protestors don't get the result they want out of this it's gonna get real ugly.I really hope I'm wrong.

You are not. They are waiting to riot. Free TVs. They are like a bunch of guys in the starting blocks at the US Olympics. They hope they can riot and grab free stuff while destroying everything in their path.

 

[Sweet J]

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

This is a horribly offensive thing to say. It marks you as ignorant, and immediately gets you put in the "clueless about race issues" category (if not "racist").

I don't know you, or what you are really like, or what you really believe. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to stop saying that.

 

[Sweet J]

From my experience, only bigots see two classes of black people, distinguishing a "N" from the good black folk.

There must be loads of black bigots then because I've heard numerous black people make that distinction. Makes sense. I'd want to distance myself from getting miscategorized with the Ns, too.

All your black friends, coming over to your house, BBQing, and talking about those damn nigs, amiright?

 

[Sweet J]

By the way Tim, not that it matters but my granddaughter is dating a black guy "Justin" and they will be here for a BBQ this weekend. He is a nice young man, is respectful, has a good job and is good for my granddaughter. Neither myself or my wife have absolutely any problem with him. I know none of this matters to you or anyone else on this board, but it is fact.

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

It is not the color of their skin, it s the content of their character.

I don't expect you to understand that concept.

You can't be real.

Why do we let thinly veiled racists remain on this board, again?

It's difficult to have that "honest conversation about race" that Liberals are always calling for when you request that people whose honest views about race you disagree with be banned.But let's be honest, Liberals don't want a true honest conversation on race. They just want to dictate and browbeat on their terms like they've done the past several decades.

You have one word--ONE WORD!-- that you are not allowed to say. And you can't even stick to that. And you want an "honest conversation" about race? Good luck.

 

[timschochet]

By the way Tim, not that it matters but my granddaughter is dating a black guy "Justin" and they will be here for a BBQ this weekend. He is a nice young man, is respectful, has a good job and is good for my granddaughter. Neither myself or my wife have absolutely any problem with him. I know none of this matters to you or anyone else on this board, but it is fact.

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

It is not the color of their skin, it s the content of their character.

I don't expect you to understand that concept.

You can't be real.

Why do we let thinly veiled racists remain on this board, again?

It's difficult to have that "honest conversation about race" that Liberals are always calling for when you request that people whose honest views about race you disagree with be banned.But let's be honest, Liberals don't want a true honest conversation on race. They just want to dictate and browbeat on their terms like they've done the past several decades.

I would guess that there are a lot of conservatives who would abhor reading comments such as yours and don't want you in any way associated with them. So please do not try and turn what you and Grandpa Rox wrote as a conservative vs. liberal issue. It isn't.

 

[Jim11]

By the way Tim, not that it matters but my granddaughter is dating a black guy "Justin" and they will be here for a BBQ this weekend. He is a nice young man, is respectful, has a good job and is good for my granddaughter. Neither myself or my wife have absolutely any problem with him. I know none of this matters to you or anyone else on this board, but it is fact.

There is a difference between a black person and a "N" She has dated both one would be allowed in my home while another would not. She has also brought around white guys that fall into the same category.

It is not the color of their skin, it s the content of their character.

I don't expect you to understand that concept.

You can't be real.

Why do we let thinly veiled racists remain on this board, again?

Because it's a "free for ALL"? And of course some people can see racism in most anything.

 

[avoiding injuries]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

 

[timschochet]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

No.

And I want to note that in terms of rioting, I suspect the charge is more important than the conviction. I think that if Zimmerman had not been charged, there would have been riots. But when Zimmerman was acquitted, there were no riots. That's because what the people who call for "no justice no peace" truly want is for the system to work for them. So long as there is a trial, the system is working. If there is no trial, then they are likely to think there was a scam or a whitewash. Now I realize that there was an exception to this with the Rodney King riots of 20 years ago. But there was a video that everyone had seen, and that makes all the difference.

Again, I also want to emphasize that the VAST MAJORITY of those who have protested what's happened here will NOT riot. They will continue to organize, march peacefully, and express their views without breaking the law. Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

 

[TheIronSheik]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

Have they stopped rioting?

 

[TheWalkmen]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

No.

And I want to note that in terms of rioting, I suspect the charge is more important than the conviction. I think that if Zimmerman had not been charged, there would have been riots. But when Zimmerman was acquitted, there were no riots. That's because what the people who call for "no justice no peace" truly want is for the system to work for them. So long as there is a trial, the system is working. If there is no trial, then they are likely to think there was a scam or a whitewash. Now I realize that there was an exception to this with the Rodney King riots of 20 years ago. But there was a video that everyone had seen, and that makes all the difference.

Again, I also want to emphasize that the VAST MAJORITY of those who have protested what's happened here will NOT riot. They will continue to organize, march peacefully, and express their views without breaking the law. Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

How do you know this? How many protesters do you think there are (or have been) and how many do you think have acted in a manner not considered peaceful...by the standards of not breaking laws, yelling racist comments, etc.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Ummmmm..... There have already been riots. So I am not sure where the "if" comes to play.

 

[TheWalkmen]

Here's what's going on right now:

https://twitter.com/AllisonBlood

50 protesters at PD. Pictures of several yelling at officers. Reports of 'If we don't get justice here we'll get it on the streets' #Ferguson activist yelled while departing @SaintLouCo PD.

 

[parasaurolophus]

More peaceful protesters.

I found myself, unexpectedly, right next to these people yesterday when I left the game. My GB's left the game early so I was by myself and I left at the 2:00 mark so there weren't a whole lot of people around.

This will be the fourth time that I've had people yelling, cursing and calling me a racist. You know, because I shave my head since most of my hair has fallen out. I'm obviously a racist because I don't have hair. All because I have the nerve to attend sporting events. That isn't harassment though. These people's rights trump mine.

Wow, man. Powerful, powerful stuff. I don't know how you find the strength to go on.

It's so awful that people focus on the tragedies experiences by the friends and families of Michael Brown and Eric Garner and Oscar Grant and the resulting anger and mistrust in their communities. Meanwhile you have to stand next to people who are "yelling and chanting" after a football game, and nobody seems to care. You might have even come face to face with the 49 year old woman and teenaged girl who were arrested for assault- no doubt a harrowing, life-threatening experience. Where's the CNN news crew to cover your living nightmare? Who's gonna make a Fruitvale Station about how some people yelled at you on your way to your car after watching the Rams win?

One of the bigger **** head posts ive seen here.

Yeah, you're probably right. My using snark and sarcasm yesterday (which I already said was maybe a little over the line) in response to snark and sarcasm is way worse than you calling me a #### head.

You keep saying this. It isn't true.

 

[Widbil83]

Peaceful protesters chase CNN "Zionist" reporter lady off the air.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVbFou316hg

 

[TheIronSheik]

Peaceful protesters chase CNN "Zionist" reporter lady off the air.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVbFou316hg

####in' Israel.

 

[kentric]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

 

[TheWalkmen]

My office building is 2 - 3 block from the St Louis county courthouse / PD, and I kid you not, today our building was scheduled to have a fire drill but they cancelled it because they didn't want all of us standing outside for 15 - 20 minutes with protesters in the vicinity.

 

[lod01]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

Yeah. I read it in the training manual. It reads, 'When in a vulnerable position such as your squad car and a large man approaches your window, don't try and get out of the car or roll the window up, try and grab him and pull him through the window.

If there is a trial which there shouldn't be, hopefully there are enough logical people on the jury to defeat your type of thinking.

 

[mcintyre1]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

Also, wasn't the officer driving a full size SUV? Even at 6'4", I'm not sure you could describe Brown as "standing above you in a dominant position."

 

[fantasycurse42]

Peaceful protesters chase CNN "Zionist" reporter lady off the air.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WVbFou316hg

####in' Israel.

Sounded like some smart successful people hanging out...

 

[avoiding injuries]

My office building is 2 - 3 block from the St Louis county courthouse / PD, and I kid you not, today our building was scheduled to have a fire drill but they cancelled it because they didn't want all of us standing outside for 15 - 20 minutes with protesters in the vicinity.

How many people in your building? Sounds like a smart decision. Although a clash could have made for a nice team building activity.

 

[Jim11]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

MAY sound comical?

Yeah, I guess the officer wanted to pull Brown into his vehicle through the window...and not only that, he induced Brown to come stand by his car, so he could do grab him.

 

[Doug B]

Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

What's most vexing about this matter is that no-goodniks can use the pretense of "peaceful protest" as a cover. Also, the presence of protestors can make a given area look sufficiently "lawless" for the less intrepid of troublemakers to get just enough of a nudge to try some kind of a one-off opportunistic crime.

I feel OK about giving the organized message-bearing protestors a pass. But tha ad hoc opportunistic stuff, to me, is a lot more problematic when the message is more of a diffuse anger at authority/"white people"/etc.

 

[Jim11]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

Also, wasn't the officer driving a full size SUV? Even at 6'4", I'm not sure you could describe Brown as "standing above you in a dominant position."

The comedy team of Frick & Frack continues.

 

[[icon]]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

No.

And I want to note that in terms of rioting, I suspect the charge is more important than the conviction. I think that if Zimmerman had not been charged, there would have been riots. But when Zimmerman was acquitted, there were no riots. That's because what the people who call for "no justice no peace" truly want is for the system to work for them. So long as there is a trial, the system is working. If there is no trial, then they are likely to think there was a scam or a whitewash. Now I realize that there was an exception to this with the Rodney King riots of 20 years ago. But there was a video that everyone had seen, and that makes all the difference.

Again, I also want to emphasize that the VAST MAJORITY of those who have protested what's happened here will NOT riot. They will continue to organize, march peacefully, and express their views without breaking the law. Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

How do you know this? How many protesters do you think there are (or have been) and how many do you think have acted in a manner not considered peaceful...by the standards of not breaking laws, yelling racist comments, etc.

Tim has never let silly facts or reality get in the way if him speaking with authority on any topic he has no affiliation/background in whatsoever.

You may live in St Louis and have firsthand experience, but Tim has an internet connection.

New here?

 

[Todd Andrews]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

MAY sound comical?

Yeah, I guess the officer wanted to pull Brown into his vehicle through the window...and not only that, he induced Brown to come stand by his car, so he could do grab him.

The witness said the officer pulled up right next to them and opened his door rapidly, which bounced off Brown and slammed shut. If we accept that happened, the officer could have thought Brown slammed the door on him (and Brown may have) and reached through the open window and grabbed Brown, which is what the witness said happened. From there, the struggle could have ensued. It sounds perfectly reasonable and not comical at all.

 

[[icon]]

Here's what's going on right now:

https://twitter.com/AllisonBlood

50 protesters at PD. Pictures of several yelling at officers. Reports of 'If we don't get justice here we'll get it on the streets' #Ferguson activist yelled while departing @SaintLouCo PD.

Stuff like this is going to make it awfully easy for any citizens to satisfy "feared for my life" justification when the resulting self-defense shootings are brought to trial.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that... but If they pass around too many cans of "ack-a-fool" at the next rally and there may be more shootings to protest.

 

[mcintyre1]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

Yeah. I read it in the training manual. It reads, 'When in a vulnerable position such as your squad car and a large man approaches your window, don't try and get out of the car or roll the window up, try and grab him and pull him through the window.

If there is a trial which there shouldn't be, hopefully there are enough logical people on the jury to defeat your type of thinking.

You really can't imagine an angry person who believes they have authority over other people might grab and threaten a person larger than themselves, particularly when they're armed and have no reason to believe the other person is? That's completely absurd to you?

I'll get imaginative for you, just in case. We'll draw from the witness statements of Dorian Johnson, the other man on the street with Brown, shortly after the killing:

Dorian Johnson, 22, told CNN that he and Brown were walking in the middle of the street when a white male officer pulled up and told them, "Get the f*** on the sidewalk."

The young men replied that they were "not but a minute away from our destination, and we would shortly be out of the street," Johnson said.

The officer drove forward but stopped and backed up, almost hitting the pair, Johnson said.

"We were so close, almost inches away, that when he tried to open his door aggressively, the door ricocheted both off me and Big Mike's body and closed back on the officer," Johnson said.

Still in his car, the officer then grabbed Brown by his neck, Johnson said. Brown tried to pull away, but the officer kept pulling Brown toward him, he said.

The officer drew his weapon, and "he said, 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'm going to shoot' " and almost instantaneously fired his weapon, hitting Brown, Johnson said.

Change the bolded part to something much more colorful, say something along the lines of "Shut the #### up, pig", etc. Given the communities reaction to the shooting, it doesn't seem like a stretch to think Brown might have said something very disrespectful that might send a hot-headed person into a rage (similar to the video of the Ferguson officer yelling that he'd shoot protesters if they didn't get back).

Wilson backs up, throws the door open to get out and scream at these guys, Brown slams the door shut and starts yelling back. Wilson, prevented from leaving his vehicle to grab Brown, grabs Brown through the window. Brown struggles back or to get away, hitting Wilson (assuming the reports that Wilson sustained facial injuries is true). Wilson pulls his gun to threaten Brown to stop struggling - "I'll shoot you" - Brown reaches out with his right hand to grab the barrel of the gun and aim it away from his body, and Wilson shoots (this could be when Brown was shot in the palm of his right hand).

Brown runs away, Wilson exits his vehicle and shoots at Brown again, hitting him or not (I'm unclear on the autopsy information regarding whether he was hit from behind at all). Brown, realizing that this officer was trying to kill him, stops and turns to plead for Wilson to stop shooting, and is shot to death by Wilson.

----

Is it possible that Michael Brown did exactly what Wilson says he did? Absolutely. I just don't see how people can't imagine any plausible version of the events in which Wilson was the aggressor from inside of the car.

 

[mcintyre1]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

Also, wasn't the officer driving a full size SUV? Even at 6'4", I'm not sure you could describe Brown as "standing above you in a dominant position."

The comedy team of Frick & Frack continues.

Oh, Jim, what would I do without you

 

[timschochet]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

No.And I want to note that in terms of rioting, I suspect the charge is more important than the conviction. I think that if Zimmerman had not been charged, there would have been riots. But when Zimmerman was acquitted, there were no riots. That's because what the people who call for "no justice no peace" truly want is for the system to work for them. So long as there is a trial, the system is working. If there is no trial, then they are likely to think there was a scam or a whitewash. Now I realize that there was an exception to this with the Rodney King riots of 20 years ago. But there was a video that everyone had seen, and that makes all the difference.

Again, I also want to emphasize that the VAST MAJORITY of those who have protested what's happened here will NOT riot. They will continue to organize, march peacefully, and express their views without breaking the law. Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

How do you know this? How many protesters do you think there are (or have been) and how many do you think have acted in a manner not considered peaceful...by the standards of not breaking laws, yelling racist comments, etc.

Tim has never let silly facts or reality get in the way if him speaking with authority on any topic he has no affiliation/background in whatsoever.

You may live in St Louis and have firsthand experience, but Tim has an internet connection.

New here?

i don't think that I need to prove that most of the demonstrators were or will be committing acts of violence. Never in our history have any majority of organized protestors been involved in violence, and this is especially true in civil rights issues. The fact that the two of you would even see this as a possibility is very telling.

 

[mcintyre1]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

This statement is really comical. Goes totally against logic. A much larger human is standing above you in a dominant position and you reach out of your car and try and grab him. Makes perfect sense.

It has already been asserted by at least one witness that the officer reached through his window to restrain Brown. May sound comical to you, but its not out of the realm of possibility. You need to also consider that one individual is a police officer. While a normal sized person may not pull on a much larger person, a cop may.

Also, wasn't the officer driving a full size SUV? Even at 6'4", I'm not sure you could describe Brown as "standing above you in a dominant position."

This is news to me (though I'm sure it was mentioned here when it 'broke' over a month ago), but Wilson is no small man himself.

 

[TheWalkmen]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

No.And I want to note that in terms of rioting, I suspect the charge is more important than the conviction. I think that if Zimmerman had not been charged, there would have been riots. But when Zimmerman was acquitted, there were no riots. That's because what the people who call for "no justice no peace" truly want is for the system to work for them. So long as there is a trial, the system is working. If there is no trial, then they are likely to think there was a scam or a whitewash. Now I realize that there was an exception to this with the Rodney King riots of 20 years ago. But there was a video that everyone had seen, and that makes all the difference.

Again, I also want to emphasize that the VAST MAJORITY of those who have protested what's happened here will NOT riot. They will continue to organize, march peacefully, and express their views without breaking the law. Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

How do you know this? How many protesters do you think there are (or have been) and how many do you think have acted in a manner not considered peaceful...by the standards of not breaking laws, yelling racist comments, etc.

Tim has never let silly facts or reality get in the way if him speaking with authority on any topic he has no affiliation/background in whatsoever.

You may live in St Louis and have firsthand experience, but Tim has an internet connection.

New here?

i don't think that I need to prove that most of the demonstrators were or will be committing acts of violence. Never in our history have any majority of organized protestors been involved in violence, and this is especially true in civil rights issues. The fact that the two of you would even see this as a possibility is very telling.

I don't think it's a vast majority. I posted a link and mentioned there were 50 protesters at the PD. In one of the pictures, 3 people appear to be yelling at the police. That's an estimate of 6% as an absolute minimum. I would say it is likely that more than 3 people were acting disorderly. I'd estimate a minimum of at least 3 more based on pictures and comments, so I would estimate a minimum of 12% of the protesters in this instance acting in less than a peaceful manner.

So you've now seen some of my math and estimates. I think 12% is a lot. Do you think 12% is a lot? Is my estimate out of line? I think the ratio of out-of-line protesters to peaceful protesters is much higher than a normal outlier-to-the-group ratio. I simply asked you where you're coming up with a VAST majority?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

From interview with forensic expert on CNN. Bodes well for the officer.

Latest leaks from the grand jury have the officer getting punched in the head, Brown being shot at close range, possibly within arms reach. Gun powder reside on his hand. Also, radio transmissions may indicate that not only did the officer know a robbery had been committed at that store, but the description fit Brown. Timeframe may indicate that is why he backed up to confront them.

I almost want to see a trial so that when they put that friend up on the stand, the defense destroys him. There is no way the prosecution can coach him up on what would come his way. He would be a valuable witness for the officer.

While that points to the fact that they had an altercation at/in the police car, it does not show:

1. Who initiated the contact. Was it the officer pulling Brown from the window - with Brown not attempting to attack until the gun was pulled.

2. Whether Brown was in fact surrendering himself to the officer, with his hands up and defenseless.

Are you postulating that a man the size of the Officer reached through his window, rather than exiting the vehicle, and tried to use his left hand to pull a man the size of the suspect into the vehicle through the window? Does your theory come with a rationale for why the officer would want a man the size of brown pulled through the vehicle window into his lap? I need to hear more to understand what you are going for here.

 

[bryhamm]

For those who think there will be rioting if Wilson is not charged, do you think there will be rioting if he is?

I can see a charge/conviction affirming what they've already been rioting about.

No.And I want to note that in terms of rioting, I suspect the charge is more important than the conviction. I think that if Zimmerman had not been charged, there would have been riots. But when Zimmerman was acquitted, there were no riots. That's because what the people who call for "no justice no peace" truly want is for the system to work for them. So long as there is a trial, the system is working. If there is no trial, then they are likely to think there was a scam or a whitewash. Now I realize that there was an exception to this with the Rodney King riots of 20 years ago. But there was a video that everyone had seen, and that makes all the difference.

Again, I also want to emphasize that the VAST MAJORITY of those who have protested what's happened here will NOT riot. They will continue to organize, march peacefully, and express their views without breaking the law. Yes, I fear if Wilson isn't charged there's bound to be some hotheads who will do something stupid. But to group them together with the peaceful protestors is a terrible thing to do, and far too many people in this thread are doing exactly that.

How do you know this? How many protesters do you think there are (or have been) and how many do you think have acted in a manner not considered peaceful...by the standards of not breaking laws, yelling racist comments, etc.

Tim has never let silly facts or reality get in the way if him speaking with authority on any topic he has no affiliation/background in whatsoever.

You may live in St Louis and have firsthand experience, but Tim has an internet connection.

New here?

i don't think that I need to prove that most of the demonstrators were or will be committing acts of violence. Never in our history have any majority of organized protestors been involved in violence, and this is especially true in civil rights issues. The fact that the two of you would even see this as a possibility is very telling.

omg