Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (5 Viewers)

[jon_mx]

The point of my analogy Jon is that you're being awfully selective in your outrage about a symbolic gesture which you claim is based on a lie. Only a week ago this entire nation celebrated a national holiday which is based on a total fabrication of events which happens to be deeply offensive to many native Americans. Where was your outrage then? Did you express disgust at the many depictions of pilgrims and Indians happily sharing food together? I must have missed that.

Sometimes legends are more important than reality . Probably the most famous single moment in American sports history is when an old Babe Ruth pointed at the stands and predicted he'd hit a home run, after which he did. Except it probably never happened. Yet we revere it anyhow, as we do the kid who said to Shoeless Joe Jackson, "Say it ain't so Joe"; except that never happened either. One of the most famous movie lines ever is when Humphrey Bogart says "Play It Again Sam" in Casablanca- except that line isn't in the film. And so on.

The reason, I suspect, that you're so outraged by the "Hands up don't shoot" symbolism has less to do with it's in accuracy and more to do with your philosophical disagreement with the larger claim that blacks are systematically treated worse by police.

It offends me because it portrays police as going around shooting innocent black people for no reason. I think it is very divisive and instead of opening the door to discussion, puts both sides on the extremes where they will dig in and there will be more killings.

 

[Todem]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.

Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

See, now to me he is one of my favorite posters, informed, witty, patient, but capable of some bite from time to time.

I tend to agree.

But being informed does not always equate to common sense. And I don't appreciate his snide rudeness directed at me. And what some may find as witty sometimes comes off as a pompous ### wipe to me. Just my perception.

I know plenty of highly educated people who are clueless. An oxymoron of sorts....but quite common. What comes off as a search for truth by himself and Tim and a few others to a lesser degree smells...no reeks of bias to a particular side.

I am simply using the information coupled with my common sense to determine my opinion of what happened. Because if you or I were on a jury and had this in front of us...we would have to use our common sense and couple that with the evidence. What I have read...tells me this was within the line of duty and officer Wlison had probable cause to use deadly force. Reasonable doubt about Brown is quite easy to establish in this.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

why do the "hands up" gesture when the Ferguson dude didn't have his hands up, nor did the Cleveland kid, and the NYC dude was choked to death.. do cops really go around shooting people with their hands up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOU3l9qZ6rg

Damn, that's bad.

What's with the dance he's does before they finish him off?

I have no idea what he's thinking, but when he refuses to follow the orders of a crowd of cops with their guns drawn, and then starts to dive into the car, he almost gave them no choice. What's bad is after the first volley, he seems to either realize what's going on, or decides to comply, but it seems too little, too late. I'm guessing the final shots were squeezed off before the cops realized he was going to throw his hands in the air and surrender, but the image is really bad.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

why do the "hands up" gesture when the Ferguson dude didn't have his hands up, nor did the Cleveland kid, and the NYC dude was choked to death.. do cops really go around shooting people with their hands up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOU3l9qZ6rg

Damn, that's bad.

What's with the dance he's does before they finish him off?

I have no idea what he's thinking, but when he refuses to follow the orders of a crowd of cops with their guns drawn, and then starts to dive into the car, he almost gave them no choice. What's bad is after the first volley, he seems to either realize what's going on, or decides to comply, but it seems too little, too late. I'm guessing the final shots were squeezed off before the cops realized he was going to throw his hands in the air and surrender, but the image is really bad.

More on this incident

 

[Henry Ford]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.

Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

I can't figure out what has five letters and works before "bag." It's driving me nuts.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Who cares what a gesture is "born out of"? Why does it matter? All that matters is what meaning it takes on as events unfold and its use becomes widespread. When people knock on wood do people get outraged at the nod towards paganism from which the gesture originated? When someone flashes a peace sign, does anyone point out that the gesture originally came from the semaphore symbols for N and D for Nuclear Disarmament and that therefore flashing it means you support banning all nuclear weapons? Do people throw fits when kids at heavy metal shows throw up devil horns because they think it means the kids are supporting satanism and the occult? Actually, I guess maybe some people do get upset about that one. Those people are oversensitive, overly literal idiots.

Wow. Just wow.

Strong counterpoint.

Well, let's all hope that law enforcement is somehow able to recover from the enormous burden of having to see lots of people with their hands raised in peaceful protest. I can't even fathom the courage they must have to summon every day to get out of bed and go to work knowing they will face such an unspeakable horror.

How do you counter something so ridiculous? I thought you were smart. NOTHING good comes from something in which the foundation is a lie.

I love you are still calling them peaceful. That's ####### funny. I guess it's okay because it isn't your business shut down or in many cases, burnt down. But really, who cares if this is all because of a lie right? Also many of these "protesters" are ####### racists, nothing more. If you put white robes on them and changed their words to derogatory things about black people, there would be no difference.

You don't live here and you don't hear what I hear. You don't hear the awful things that these "protesters" say. You don't hear the black people calling in to radio shows that think, all cops lie=all cops are white people=all white people are liars that hate black people. As somebody that grew up in a diverse city (St. Louis, not just Ferguson), with a diverse family, it's soul crushing to hear this is how people feel. I'm guessing more than a few never felt that way, or at least didn't really believe until now. Who cares if it's a lie right? I bet that guy that gotten beaten to death by teenagers with hammers cares. I bet his wife and family that loved him cares.

If you want real change, like I do, then I suggest you root your cause in an actual event, not fairy tale, whose sole message is hatred of another race of people.

I'll ask you again, too, what is the point of continuing to close down roads and businesses?

 

[lod01]

Got another one ladies> Run with it.

http://news.yahoo.com/phoenix-police-officer-shoots-dead-unarmed-black-man-200230314.html

 

[lod01]

why do the "hands up" gesture when the Ferguson dude didn't have his hands up, nor did the Cleveland kid, and the NYC dude was choked to death.. do cops really go around shooting people with their hands up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOU3l9qZ6rg

Damn, that's bad.

What's with the dance he's does before they finish him off?

I have no idea what he's thinking, but when he refuses to follow the orders of a crowd of cops with their guns drawn, and then starts to dive into the car, he almost gave them no choice. What's bad is after the first volley, he seems to either realize what's going on, or decides to comply, but it seems too little, too late. I'm guessing the final shots were squeezed off before the cops realized he was going to throw his hands in the air and surrender, but the image is really bad.

More on this incident

He had it coming to him.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.

Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

I can't figure out what has five letters and works before "bag." It's driving me nuts.

ditty

 

[Henry Ford]

I tend to agree.


But being informed does not always equate to common sense. And I don't appreciate his snide rudeness directed at me. And what some may find as witty sometimes comes off as a pompous ### wipe to me. Just my perception.

I know plenty of highly educated people who are clueless. An oxymoron of sorts....but quite common. What comes off as a search for truth by himself and Tim and a few others to a lesser degree smells...no reeks of bias to a particular side.

I am simply using the information coupled with my common sense to determine my opinion of what happened. Because if you or I were on a jury and had this in front of us...we would have to use our common sense and couple that with the evidence. What I have read...tells me this was within the line of duty and officer Wlison had probable cause to use deadly force. Reasonable doubt about Brown is quite easy to establish in this.

You don't appreciate snide rudeness? I was just trying to be marginally humorous at the point that this thread has gotten completely ridiculous.

You keep popping back into this thread to make sweeping insulting comments about a bunch of people and snidely, rudely exclaimed to everyone else how done you are with this thread. I'm sorry that in the midst of your self-important, grandiose gesture of hubris I pointed out that no one needs you to let us know that you're done discussing this topic and that you can just stop talking about it.

Very sorry.

Edit: And, really, I do have respect for you. I just stop talking to people I don't have any respect for. You just seem a little... uptight about the whole thing.

 

[Henry Ford]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.

Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

See, now to me he is one of my favorite posters, informed, witty, patient, but capable of some bite from time to time.

I love you, too.

 

[jon_mx]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

I can't figure out what has five letters and works before "bag." It's driving me nuts.

ditty

Deuce. Henry has a bag he ####s in.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

 

[Henry Ford]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

I can't figure out what has five letters and works before "bag." It's driving me nuts.

ditty

Deuce. Henry has a bag he ####s in.

You can call it a colostomy bag. It's okay.

It's for convenience, not medical necessity.

Edit: bag. Dentist is the one with a colostomy back.

 

[timschochet]

St Louis Bob, I think you make some very good points, and I can tell how passionate you are, especially about businesses that are hurting . Anyone can sympathize with that.

But it does sound to me, and please don't take offense to this, that you're over generalizing? Some of the protestors are racist to be sure, but do you really believe that all of them are? Some of them are hateful, but you really think they're all hateful? Some of them have behaved truly ugly, but do you truly think that's representative of the majority? And are you really unable to empathize with their anger at the system, of which they regard this incident as only the tip of the iceberg, even if you believe they are misguided about the death of Mike Brown?

You seem like a very good guy to me. I get afraid that your anger and resentment toward the protestors will turn you into something you're not, and make you part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

 

[jon_mx]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

I can't figure out what has five letters and works before "bag." It's driving me nuts.

ditty

Deuce. Henry has a bag he ####s in.

You can call it a colostomy bag. It's okay. It's for convenience, not medical necessity.

Edit: bag. Dentist is the one with a colostomy back.

It saves 30 minutes every day. You should tell Otis.

 

[Henry Ford]

The entire origin of the gesture "Hands Up Don't Shoot" was born out of lying witness's and an over zealous viral media blitzkrieg. Proven by scientific fact not to be true.

Yet people are looking to this as a symbol of solidarity? Yet I still hear people spewing he was shot from a ridiculous 150 feet away with a pistol!!!!! LOL!!!!

Choose a new symbol. Because the birth of this one was born from an outright proven lie. Find a different case...because this was not the one to protest.

That is the point of those offended by it. It is a pure farce of how it came to be. A total lie and disrespect to a police officer who acted in the line of duty and was put into a position of little choice but to fire his weapon. Proven through his story being consistent with a few key eye witness's and by the overwhelming forensic evidence which lined up his story even better.

Hands up Don't Shoot is a mantra based on a lie spawned by over zealous, inconsistent , proven lying witness's and the hot bed lava spill of a viral media fire storm immediately following this shooting.

This thread for me....is done. There was some decent discussion but mostly some insane trolling and outright hatred in here and some of the most ignorant thinking (and complete lack of common sense and blindness) I think I ever read on this forum.

I'm glad you came back to let us know. We would have gotten worried.

You wear the term ##### bag quite well Henry.Typical extreme left wing #####. Hug that tree for me too Henry. All respect out the window not that you had an ounce for me to begin with.

I can't figure out what has five letters and works before "bag." It's driving me nuts.

ditty

Deuce. Henry has a bag he ####s in.

You can call it a colostomy bag. It's okay. It's for convenience, not medical necessity.

Edit: bag. Dentist is the one with a colostomy back.

It saves 30 minutes every day. You should tell Otis.

What are you, the Flash? It only takes you 30 minutes a day to ####?

 

[Ookie Pringle]

But it does sound to me, and please don't take offense to this, that you're over generalizing?

That is something you do very often.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Who cares what a gesture is "born out of"? Why does it matter? All that matters is what meaning it takes on as events unfold and its use becomes widespread. When people knock on wood do people get outraged at the nod towards paganism from which the gesture originated? When someone flashes a peace sign, does anyone point out that the gesture originally came from the semaphore symbols for N and D for Nuclear Disarmament and that therefore flashing it means you support banning all nuclear weapons? Do people throw fits when kids at heavy metal shows throw up devil horns because they think it means the kids are supporting satanism and the occult? Actually, I guess maybe some people do get upset about that one. Those people are oversensitive, overly literal idiots.

Wow. Just wow.

Strong counterpoint.

Well, let's all hope that law enforcement is somehow able to recover from the enormous burden of having to see lots of people with their hands raised in peaceful protest. I can't even fathom the courage they must have to summon every day to get out of bed and go to work knowing they will face such an unspeakable horror.

How do you counter something so ridiculous? I thought you were smart. NOTHING good comes from something in which the foundation is a lie.

I love you are still calling them peaceful. That's ####### funny. I guess it's okay because it isn't your business shut down or in many cases, burnt down. But really, who cares if this is all because of a lie right? Also many of these "protesters" are ####### racists, nothing more. If you put white robes on them and changed their words to derogatory things about black people, there would be no difference.

You don't live here and you don't hear what I hear. You don't hear the awful things that these "protesters" say. You don't hear the black people calling in to radio shows that think, all cops lie=all cops are white people=all white people are liars that hate black people. As somebody that grew up in a diverse city (St. Louis, not just Ferguson), with a diverse family, it's soul crushing to hear this is how people feel. I'm guessing more than a few never felt that way, or at least didn't really believe until now. Who cares if it's a lie right? I bet that guy that gotten beaten to death by teenagers with hammers cares.

If you want real change, like I do, then I suggest you root your cause in an actual event, not fairy tale, whose sole message is hatred of another race of people.

I'll ask you again, too, what is the point of continuing to close down roads and businesses?

You seem to be under the impression that the only people incorporating this gesture into protests are in Ferguson or the St. Louis area. This is not true, not even close. The percentage of hands up, don't shoot protestors who do anything other than engage in peaceful protest is miniscule. Hell, just this one picture from Howard University probably outnumbers the number or protestors who have done anything violent or criminal. If not I'm guessing these images from New York do the job several times over.

I get that this sucks for decent, well-meaning St. Louis residents. It sounds awful, sincerely. You have my sympathy. But what you're experiencing is simply not the same as what 99% of the people who engage in these protests or observe them are experiencing. Those people aren't specifically concerned with Michael Brown, or even the law enforcement reaction to the protests of his case in Ferguson and the media coverage. They're upset about the problem of how law enforcement treats the black community on a much larger scale. That's been the case for quite a while now IMO.

As to you last question- protestors would tell you that protests aren't supposed to be convenient. They're supposed to draw attention to the cause. Taking to the streets in significant numbers does that, it lets people know that there are a lot of people out in the streets and they feel passionately about something. It's hardly a major problem- streets are closed for all sorts of reasons all the time- street fairs, accidents, burst water mains, people celebrating a sports victory, whatever. If the police are doing their jobs well they can easily divert traffic, meaning nobody is inconvenienced by more than a couple minutes.

As for closing down businesses, I don't really know what you're talking about and haven't seen anything to that effect. Sorry.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Who cares what a gesture is "born out of"? Why does it matter? All that matters is what meaning it takes on as events unfold and its use becomes widespread. When people knock on wood do people get outraged at the nod towards paganism from which the gesture originated? When someone flashes a peace sign, does anyone point out that the gesture originally came from the semaphore symbols for N and D for Nuclear Disarmament and that therefore flashing it means you support banning all nuclear weapons? Do people throw fits when kids at heavy metal shows throw up devil horns because they think it means the kids are supporting satanism and the occult? Actually, I guess maybe some people do get upset about that one. Those people are oversensitive, overly literal idiots.

Wow. Just wow.

Strong counterpoint.

Well, let's all hope that law enforcement is somehow able to recover from the enormous burden of having to see lots of people with their hands raised in peaceful protest. I can't even fathom the courage they must have to summon every day to get out of bed and go to work knowing they will face such an unspeakable horror.

How do you counter something so ridiculous? I thought you were smart. NOTHING good comes from something in which the foundation is a lie.

I love you are still calling them peaceful. That's ####### funny. I guess it's okay because it isn't your business shut down or in many cases, burnt down. But really, who cares if this is all because of a lie right? Also many of these "protesters" are ####### racists, nothing more. If you put white robes on them and changed their words to derogatory things about black people, there would be no difference.

You don't live here and you don't hear what I hear. You don't hear the awful things that these "protesters" say. You don't hear the black people calling in to radio shows that think, all cops lie=all cops are white people=all white people are liars that hate black people. As somebody that grew up in a diverse city (St. Louis, not just Ferguson), with a diverse family, it's soul crushing to hear this is how people feel. I'm guessing more than a few never felt that way, or at least didn't really believe until now. Who cares if it's a lie right? I bet that guy that gotten beaten to death by teenagers with hammers cares.

If you want real change, like I do, then I suggest you root your cause in an actual event, not fairy tale, whose sole message is hatred of another race of people.

I'll ask you again, too, what is the point of continuing to close down roads and businesses?

You seem to be under the impression that the only people incorporating this gesture into protests are in Ferguson or the St. Louis area. This is not true, not even close. The percentage of hands up, don't shoot protestors who do anything other than engage in peaceful protest is miniscule. Hell, just this one picture from Howard University probably outnumbers the number or protestors who have done anything violent or criminal. If not I'm guessing these images from New York do the job several times over.

I get that this sucks for decent, well-meaning St. Louis residents. It sounds awful, sincerely. You have my sympathy. But what you're experiencing is simply not the same as what 99% of the people who engage in these protests or observe them are experiencing. Those people aren't specifically concerned with Michael Brown, or even the law enforcement reaction to the protests of his case in Ferguson and the media coverage. They're upset about the problem of how law enforcement treats the black community on a much larger scale. That's been the case for quite a while now IMO.

As to you last question- protestors would tell you that protests aren't supposed to be convenient. They're supposed to draw attention to the cause. Closing down roads does that, it lets people know that there are a lot of people out in the streets and they feel passionately about something. It's hardly a major problem- streets are closed for all sorts of reasons all the time. If the police are doing their jobs well they can easily divert traffic, meaning nobody is inconvenienced by more than a couple minutes. \

As for closing down businesses, I don't really know what you're talking about and haven't seen anything to that effect. Sorry.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Again, everywhere, they are buying a lie. A bunch of liberal college kids want to protest, something, anything? Shocking. I was in college in 1990 when the Gulf War broke out. There were protests all over campus with people acting if it were Vietnam all over again.

They closed down malls on Black Friday. They close down streets so people can't get to businesses. Then as of course as you know, they torched plenty of businesses.There has been a mantra to not shop at "white" businesses as if there is some sort of whitey fan club. If there is, I haven't been getting the mailers.

A big complaint is how all of the governing people in Ferguson are white even though there is a large majority of black people that live there. However just 12.5% of black people voted in the last election. Up from 12% in the previous election. It doesn't sound like they want change to me.

Lets cut to the chase, what do you, and these protesters want? What is your solution? Should they conscript black people to be cops? All I hear is a lot of racism and calls for "justice" for Mike Brown. I've yet to hear a single solution offered.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Body cameras arent always a solution.

 

[johnnycakes]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

 

[jon_mx]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

Why not? It goes along with the narrative of "Hands Up".

 

[Henry Ford]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

Why not? It goes along with the narrative of "Hands Up".

14 people testified that he at least partially paid for them?

 

[lod01]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

 

[johnnycakes]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

Why not? It goes along with the narrative of "Hands Up".

14 people testified that he at least partially paid for them?

How was any of that testimony relevant to whether the shooting was justified or not?

Bear in mind... I tend to side with Officer Wilson in the MO shooting, but with the Garder side in the NY choking.

 

[Hang 10]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

Why not? It goes along with the narrative of "Hands Up".

14 people testified that he at least partially paid for them?

I heard he charged them.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Body cameras arent always a solution.

####### horrible. I would give him the death penalty.

As person that has run into more than a few dickface cops, I'm also all for body cameras. Profiling goes both ways. Being a teenager working in a rough part of STL was interesting. I was obviously just there to buy drugs. I got pulled over and frisked many times.

Also end this joke of a war on drugs. Gives the cops too many ####### excuses.

 

[Henry Ford]

Just watched a video that people are saying that he actually paid for the cigars.

Yes, he certainly paid for them.

Why not? It goes along with the narrative of "Hands Up".

14 people testified that he at least partially paid for them?

I heard he charged them.

I heard he gave it a shot, but then he just gave up.

 

[Henry Ford]

Body cameras arent always a solution.

####### horrible. I would give him the death penalty.

As person that has run into more than a few dickface cops, I'm also all for body cameras. Profiling goes both ways. Being a teenager working in a rough part of STL was interesting. I was obviously just there to buy drugs. I got pulled over and frisked many times.

Also end this joke of a war on drugs. Gives the cops too many ####### excuses.

This. This. A thousand times this. A hundred bajillion times this.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

So if he paid for them why did he push down the store clerk?

 

[Jackstraw]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

 

[timschochet]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

This must be a pack of lies, because i've been told that all the ugliness is on the protestor side.

 

[Henry Ford]

I tend to agree.


But being informed does not always equate to common sense. And I don't appreciate his snide rudeness directed at me. And what some may find as witty sometimes comes off as a pompous ### wipe to me. Just my perception.

I know plenty of highly educated people who are clueless. An oxymoron of sorts....but quite common. What comes off as a search for truth by himself and Tim and a few others to a lesser degree smells...no reeks of bias to a particular side.

I am simply using the information coupled with my common sense to determine my opinion of what happened. Because if you or I were on a jury and had this in front of us...we would have to use our common sense and couple that with the evidence. What I have read...tells me this was within the line of duty and officer Wlison had probable cause to use deadly force. Reasonable doubt about Brown is quite easy to establish in this.

You don't appreciate snide rudeness? I was just trying to be marginally humorous at the point that this thread has gotten completely ridiculous.

You keep popping back into this thread to make sweeping insulting comments about a bunch of people and snidely, rudely exclaimed to everyone else how done you are with this thread. I'm sorry that in the midst of your self-important, grandiose gesture of hubris I pointed out that no one needs you to let us know that you're done discussing this topic and that you can just stop talking about it.

Very sorry.

Edit: And, really, I do have respect for you. I just stop talking to people I don't have any respect for. You just seem a little... uptight about the whole thing.

Your right....I admit it. Your right. It's a touchy subject. I apologize. Sometimes I don't read sarcasm like I should or is intended. Again my apology.

Don't apologize to me. Apologize to the ignorant, racist, ##### bags you insulted by telling them they're just like a lawyer.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Body cameras arent always a solution.

####### horrible. I would give him the death penalty.

As person that has run into more than a few dickface cops, I'm also all for body cameras. Profiling goes both ways. Being a teenager working in a rough part of STL was interesting. I was obviously just there to buy drugs. I got pulled over and frisked many times.

Also end this joke of a war on drugs. Gives the cops too many ####### excuses.

This. This. A thousand times this. A hundred bajillion times this.

I've also believed, and want, but it will never happen, that cops and elected officials busted breaking the law get double the sentence that us plebes would get. Like these POS. 28 months. What a ####### joke.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

I tend to agree.


But being informed does not always equate to common sense. And I don't appreciate his snide rudeness directed at me. And what some may find as witty sometimes comes off as a pompous ### wipe to me. Just my perception.

I know plenty of highly educated people who are clueless. An oxymoron of sorts....but quite common. What comes off as a search for truth by himself and Tim and a few others to a lesser degree smells...no reeks of bias to a particular side.

I am simply using the information coupled with my common sense to determine my opinion of what happened. Because if you or I were on a jury and had this in front of us...we would have to use our common sense and couple that with the evidence. What I have read...tells me this was within the line of duty and officer Wlison had probable cause to use deadly force. Reasonable doubt about Brown is quite easy to establish in this.

You don't appreciate snide rudeness? I was just trying to be marginally humorous at the point that this thread has gotten completely ridiculous.

You keep popping back into this thread to make sweeping insulting comments about a bunch of people and snidely, rudely exclaimed to everyone else how done you are with this thread. I'm sorry that in the midst of your self-important, grandiose gesture of hubris I pointed out that no one needs you to let us know that you're done discussing this topic and that you can just stop talking about it.

Very sorry.

Edit: And, really, I do have respect for you. I just stop talking to people I don't have any respect for. You just seem a little... uptight about the whole thing.

Your right....I admit it. Your right. It's a touchy subject. I apologize. Sometimes I don't read sarcasm like I should or is intended. Again my apology.

Don't apologize to me. Apologize to the ignorant, racist, ##### bags you insulted by telling them they're just like a lawyer.

lol

 

[Henry Ford]

Body cameras arent always a solution.

####### horrible. I would give him the death penalty.

As person that has run into more than a few dickface cops, I'm also all for body cameras. Profiling goes both ways. Being a teenager working in a rough part of STL was interesting. I was obviously just there to buy drugs. I got pulled over and frisked many times.

Also end this joke of a war on drugs. Gives the cops too many ####### excuses.

This. This. A thousand times this. A hundred bajillion times this.

I've also believed, and want, but it will never happen, that cops and elected officials busted breaking the law get double the sentence that us plebes would get. Like these POS.

Here's the thing that tells me - that guy has placed a monetary value on his badge.

I talk to lawyers about this sort of thing, about the ethical issues, and what our licenses to practice law are worth. Most agree - "I ain't breaking the ethical rules, and if I did it would be so I can get away with billions. With a 'b.'" That's what the license to practice law is worth to them.

This piece of #### was willing to lose his badge for $200.00

The only other reasonable interpretation to me is that it's so commonplace and so pervasive that it was unfathomable to him that he'd lose his badge for it. I hope that's not the case.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

Pretty much the entire State, with the exception of the St. Louis area, are ####### racist hicks. Believe me, I'm not happy about it. I'm sure you can find a Civil War map somewhere. There are plenty of people south and west of here that consider us traitors. I was in KC over the summer visiting friends, that moved there from Chicago, and was more than a little shocked to hear some guy in the bathroom talking to the custodian about how he hope that N Obama would be killed. Sickening.

 

[Henry Ford]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

Pretty much the entire State, with the exception of the St. Louis area, are ####### racist hicks. Believe me, I'm not happy about it. I'm sure you can find a Civil War map somewhere. There are plenty of people south and west of here that consider us traitors. I was in KC over the summer visiting friends, that moved there from Chicago, and was more than a little shocked to hear some guy in the bathroom talking to the custodian about how he hope that N Obama would be killed. Sickening.

This is where I struggle with things like what's going on in your area right now. The "protests" (looting and insanity) are in an area that you grew up in and around, know the locals and the police, it seems unbelievably over the top as a response to any single thing that's going on, and I believe you when you express what you think is really going on in police/community relations in general.

But in this day and age of easy transportation, when I know for a fact that the people who live there can drive an hour in virtually any direction and encounter the sort of people who probably deserve to have their houses/farms burned down and the earth salted as a monument to the kind of community that should never be built up again... I don't know. I can't imagine feeling like I had to make sure to stay within 10 miles of my house so I didn't encounter that.

 

[Hang 10]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

This must be a pack of lies, because i've been told that all the ugliness is on the protestor side.

Who told you that?

 

[johnnycakes]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

Pretty much the entire State, with the exception of the St. Louis area, are ####### racist hicks. Believe me, I'm not happy about it. I'm sure you can find a Civil War map somewhere. There are plenty of people south and west of here that consider us traitors. I was in KC over the summer visiting friends, that moved there from Chicago, and was more than a little shocked to hear some guy in the bathroom talking to the custodian about how he hope that N Obama would be killed. Sickening.

This is where I struggle with things like what's going on in your area right now. The "protests" (looting and insanity) are in an area that you grew up in and around, know the locals and the police, it seems unbelievably over the top as a response to any single thing that's going on, and I believe you when you express what you think is really going on in police/community relations in general.

But in this day and age of easy transportation, when I know for a fact that the people who live there can drive an hour in virtually any direction and encounter the sort of people who probably deserve to have their houses/farms burned down and the earth salted as a monument to the kind of community that should never be built up again... I don't know. I can't imagine feeling like I had to make sure to stay within 10 miles of my house so I didn't encounter that.

I can't imagine it, either. But I can understand the outrage.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

Pretty much the entire State, with the exception of the St. Louis area, are ####### racist hicks. Believe me, I'm not happy about it. I'm sure you can find a Civil War map somewhere. There are plenty of people south and west of here that consider us traitors. I was in KC over the summer visiting friends, that moved there from Chicago, and was more than a little shocked to hear some guy in the bathroom talking to the custodian about how he hope that N Obama would be killed. Sickening.

This is where I struggle with things like what's going on in your area right now. The "protests" (looting and insanity) are in an area that you grew up in and around, know the locals and the police, it seems unbelievably over the top as a response to any single thing that's going on, and I believe you when you express what you think is really going on in police/community relations in general.

But in this day and age of easy transportation, when I know for a fact that the people who live there can drive an hour in virtually any direction and encounter the sort of people who probably deserve to have their houses/farms burned down and the earth salted as a monument to the kind of community that should never be built up again... I don't know. I can't imagine feeling like I had to make sure to stay within 10 miles of my house so I didn't encounter that.

I hear you but pretty much spot on. It's more like 50 miles though not including East St. Louis and I'm not talking about the strip clubs. Those are safe areas. The rest of it is ####### scary. Nobody goes there unless you are up to something bad. It's like a horror movie it most areas and it doesn't matter what color you are.

 

[Henry Ford]

But in this day and age of easy transportation, when I know for a fact that the people who live there can drive an hour in virtually any direction and encounter the sort of people who probably deserve to have their houses/farms burned down and the earth salted as a monument to the kind of community that should never be built up again... I don't know. I can't imagine feeling like I had to make sure to stay within 10 miles of my house so I didn't encounter that.

I've lived in the city, the sticks, and the burbs. There's more virulently anti-white sentiment in inner-city black communities than there is anti-black sentiment in the sticks. If you want to torch people's communities where an anti-[fill in the race] sentiment prevails then you should apply your standard evenly or look biased in your application.

Thanks, I'll look into that.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

As to you last question- protestors would tell you that protests aren't supposed to be convenient. They're supposed to draw attention to the cause. Taking to the streets in significant numbers does that, it lets people know that there are a lot of people out in the streets and they feel passionately about something. It's hardly a major problem- streets are closed for all sorts of reasons all the time- street fairs, accidents, burst water mains, people celebrating a sports victory, whatever. If the police are doing their jobs well they can easily divert traffic, meaning nobody is inconvenienced by more than a couple minutes.

Yeah, I'm guessing the cops aren't that sympathetic to the cause. You know, since it's all about criticizing them. "You guys suck! But, please keep the traffic moving..."

 

[Todd Andrews]

As to you last question- protestors would tell you that protests aren't supposed to be convenient. They're supposed to draw attention to the cause. Taking to the streets in significant numbers does that, it lets people know that there are a lot of people out in the streets and they feel passionately about something. It's hardly a major problem- streets are closed for all sorts of reasons all the time- street fairs, accidents, burst water mains, people celebrating a sports victory, whatever. If the police are doing their jobs well they can easily divert traffic, meaning nobody is inconvenienced by more than a couple minutes.

Yeah, I'm guessing the cops aren't that sympathetic to the cause. You know, since it's all about criticizing them. "You guys suck! But, please keep the traffic moving..."

So cops are free from getting their feelings hurt or being criticized? What if they do suck? Should we just not say anything?

I dont understand all of this rage against the protestors (obviously, I am not including the criminals burning and looting). Hard to believe there isnt some racial animosity mixed in there somewhere. Anyone with a little sense understands the scope of this protest and the broader issues, which are about much more than the details of the Michael Brown case.

If you are complaining about "hands up, dont shoot" you are probably very dense and/or very old and white. Do your own self-analysis.

I am not saying you have to agree with the protest, just that it is impossible not to understand it if you live in America.

 

[BassNBrew]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

Pretty much the entire State, with the exception of the St. Louis area, are ####### racist hicks. Believe me, I'm not happy about it. I'm sure you can find a Civil War map somewhere. There are plenty of people south and west of here that consider us traitors. I was in KC over the summer visiting friends, that moved there from Chicago, and was more than a little shocked to hear some guy in the bathroom talking to the custodian about how he hope that N Obama would be killed. Sickening.

Nice generalization. That was the exception rather than the rule unless things have changed in the last 20-30 years. I spent a good bit of time in Columbia, Rolla, and KC.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

As to you last question- protestors would tell you that protests aren't supposed to be convenient. They're supposed to draw attention to the cause. Taking to the streets in significant numbers does that, it lets people know that there are a lot of people out in the streets and they feel passionately about something. It's hardly a major problem- streets are closed for all sorts of reasons all the time- street fairs, accidents, burst water mains, people celebrating a sports victory, whatever. If the police are doing their jobs well they can easily divert traffic, meaning nobody is inconvenienced by more than a couple minutes.

Yeah, I'm guessing the cops aren't that sympathetic to the cause. You know, since it's all about criticizing them. "You guys suck! But, please keep the traffic moving..."

So cops are free from getting their feelings hurt or being criticized? What if they do suck? Should we just not say anything?

I dont understand all of this rage against the protestors (obviously, I am not including the criminals burning and looting). Hard to believe there isnt some racial animosity mixed in there somewhere. Anyone with a little sense understands the scope of this protest and the broader issues, which are about much more than the details of the Michael Brown case.

If you are complaining about "hands up, dont shoot" you are probably very dense and/or very old and white. Do your own self-analysis.

I am not saying you have to agree with the protest, just that it is impossible not to understand it if you live in America.

Whoa, whoa. Easy guy. All I commented on was the flippant way that Tobias just expected the cops to maintain order during a protest directed explicitly at them. I'm all for peaceful protest, but when it crosses the line, and you look to the very people who you are saying "suck" to bail you out, it reeks of irony.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/182383/journey-for-justice-runs-into-hostile-counter-protest-keeps-marching/

About 200 people met the marchers as they reached Rosebud around noon, activists said. A display of fried chicken, a melon and a 40-ounce beer bottle had been placed in the street. A Confederate flag flew. Counter-protestors shouted racial epithets.

Rhea Willis of Velda City, Missouri, said she saw a boy she estimated to be 8 years old holding a sign that read, "Go home.”

Somebody shot the window out of the back of one of the buses traveling with the march, dubbed by the NAACP as the Journey for Justice. The outer pane of glass broke. The bullet landed in the windowsill, the driver said.

NICE

Pretty much the entire State, with the exception of the St. Louis area, are ####### racist hicks. Believe me, I'm not happy about it. I'm sure you can find a Civil War map somewhere. There are plenty of people south and west of here that consider us traitors. I was in KC over the summer visiting friends, that moved there from Chicago, and was more than a little shocked to hear some guy in the bathroom talking to the custodian about how he hope that N Obama would be killed. Sickening.

Nice generalization. That was the exception rather than the rule unless things have changed in the last 20-30 years. I spent a good bit of time in Columbia, Rolla, and KC.

You're right GB, and I'm wrong. To make a statement like that is bull#### and I'm sorry I did. It's like saying <insert race, gender or religion here> does or thinks something. It's uncool and isn't fair.

 

[BassNBrew]

Dang NYC choke killed any chance this thread had at 250.

 

[Henry Ford]

Dang NYC choke killed any chance this thread had at 250.

Boy, if you needed a reason to be mad at that incident, here it is, right?