Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (4 Viewers)

[jonessed]

Likely not worth it's own thread, but is this t-shirt racist? It's made by a surfing clothing company. Stupid sure, but racist? You be the judge....

It's a pretty big stretch to get racism out of that.

Definitely stupid though.

 

[matttyl]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

 

[Fat Nick]

This guy is on the UVA honor committee. Cited as a leader of several campus organizations. Also, UVA students aren't quite the same as you'd find at most state schools.

Oh, please. There are 20,000 kids at UVA. ALL College students, everywhere, are (generally) jackholes after midnight and when they are with a group of friends. Harvard, Yale, UVA, Arizona State, Local Commuter School USA, whatever.

And I don't care about a kid's grades or whether or not he is on the "honor committee." That doesn't stop him from sht-for-brains when he's drunk. Don't you remember college? We were ALL jerks. Smart, dumb, white, black, athlete, fraternaty, it didn't matter.

EDIT: I know I come across as a grumpy old man. And I guess I am. But I've lived next door to too many college students, grad students, law students, etc. for it not to touch a nerve.

But has got nothing to do with this thread. Carry on. . . .

-- And I went to UVA...This whole "honor committee" thing is BS. Good for him, but that doesn't mean he's a saint.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

Good point, it's possible he fell before that I guess. I haven't read all that much on accounts of the incident.

Anyway, the problem with the bolded is that an investigation will almost never show this to be true. That's the nature of racial bias. Unless you're in the KKK or the Ferguson PD, you're generally not gonna be stupid enough to document your racism verbally or in writing. But we know it exists in law enforcement and is widespread. So are we expecting people to just forget about that, and about the fact that personal experience often suggests that blacks and whites are treated differently (see my discussion of how I commit misdemeanors on par with Eric Garner's all the time, and so do most people), and instead just pretend we live in a color-blind world when it comes to a specific incident?

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Tobias - I think we discussed this earlier in this thread, but you keep talking (in pretty much every single post) about the "overwhelming" "mountain of evidence" of "widespread" racism within LE. I recall looking at the studies you posted previously, and I won't argue that there isn't some data to support this. In particular, I remember statistics that indicated that blacks are arrested more often than whites on drug offenses, yet when surveyed, both claim to use illegal drugs at roughly similar rates. I also remember statistics that showed unfair sentencing within the judicial system. However, there are other factors involved here, not the least of which is that blacks actually do commit more crimes than whites. I think that was the case for pretty much everything except for alcohol related offenses.

 

[Rayderr]

Isn't it racist to assume that everytime there's an incident between a white cop and a black person it's because the white cop is racist?

 

[kentric]

You may be right. But you know what definitely perpetuates race related issues? People who pretend it's not a legitimate question based on history and overwhelming evidence of law enforcement racial bias. That's what some folks call "denial." First step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one.

Maybe the problem is immediately assuming that the problem is concerning race and not just over zealous AFT cops in that town (which I've already given proof of). Instead of saying that maybe these ATF cops are some serious ***** to the (likely also ****) UVA students in that town regardless of race, we have to immediately have articles titles "Black UVA student beaten by police". Of course that's going to perpetuate race relation issues.

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole towards a black person and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

You have a poor imagination then.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

You may be right. But you know what definitely perpetuates race related issues? People who pretend it's not a legitimate question based on history and overwhelming evidence of law enforcement racial bias. That's what some folks call "denial." First step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one.

Maybe the problem is immediately assuming that the problem is concerning race and not just over zealous AFT cops in that town (which I've already given proof of). Instead of saying that maybe these ATF cops are some serious ***** to the (likely also ****) UVA students in that town regardless of race, we have to immediately have articles titles "Black UVA student beaten by police". Of course that's going to perpetuate race relation issues.

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole towards a black person and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

Seriously you are jumping to conclusions. All you see is a black man with a bloody head and his comments. How do you know the police were being A-holes? They just as well may have been doing their job by the book and the kid may have been drunk and combative and hit his head in the struggle. Like Matttyl states if the investigation shows the cops were out of line then punish them but don't commit character assassination ahead of time.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias - I think we discussed this earlier in this thread, but you keep talking (in pretty much every single post) about the "overwhelming" "mountain of evidence" of "widespread" racism within LE. I recall looking at the studies you posted previously, and I won't argue that there isn't some data to support this. In particular, I remember statistics that indicated that blacks are arrested more often than whites on drug offenses, yet when surveyed, both claim to use illegal drugs at roughly similar rates. I also remember statistics that showed unfair sentencing within the judicial system. However, there are other factors involved here, not the least of which is that blacks actually do commit more crimes than whites. I think that was the case for pretty much everything except for alcohol related offenses.

Not sure what you're saying. The data shows that racism in law enforcement is widespread, even when you account for varying crime rates (for example by looking at sentencing for the same crimes, or looking at % of traffic stops resulting in seized contraband vs frequency of traffic stops, or looking at arrest rates for crimes we know white people commit at rates similar to or in greater numbers than black people). Sure there's other factors that might affect overall arrest rates and other data, but those studies isolate those factors and still find overwhelming evidence of bias.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

Good point, it's possible he fell before that I guess. I haven't read all that much on accounts of the incident.

Anyway, the problem with the bolded is that an investigation will almost never show this to be true. That's the nature of racial bias. Unless you're in the KKK or the Ferguson PD, you're generally not gonna be stupid enough to document your racism verbally or in writing. But we know it exists in law enforcement and is widespread. So are we expecting people to just forget about that, and about the fact that personal experience often suggests that blacks and whites are treated differently (see my discussion of how I commit misdemeanors on par with Eric Garner's all the time, and so do most people), and instead just pretend we live in a color-blind world when it comes to a specific incident?

According to this statement then, every confrontation between a black person and a police officer is racist...It has to be, because even after an investigation shows otherwise..the racism was just well hidden from the investigator...I'm sorry but your statement seems more racist than the incidents you protest.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

Good point, it's possible he fell before that I guess. I haven't read all that much on accounts of the incident.

Anyway, the problem with the bolded is that an investigation will almost never show this to be true. That's the nature of racial bias. Unless you're in the KKK or the Ferguson PD, you're generally not gonna be stupid enough to document your racism verbally or in writing. But we know it exists in law enforcement and is widespread. So are we expecting people to just forget about that, and about the fact that personal experience often suggests that blacks and whites are treated differently (see my discussion of how I commit misdemeanors on par with Eric Garner's all the time, and so do most people), and instead just pretend we live in a color-blind world when it comes to a specific incident?

According to this statement then, every confrontation between a black person and a police officer is racist...It has to be, because even after an investigation shows otherwise..the racism was just well hidden from the investigator...I'm sorry but your statement seems more racist than the incidents you protest.

I didn't say anything remotely close to this.

I've noticed you do this a lot. Please don't. I say enough stupid #### as it is, I don't need someone claiming I said some stupid #### I didn't say.

 

[jonessed]

Isn't it racist to assume that everytime there's an incident between a white cop and a black person it's because the white cop is racist?

Yes.

 

[Sweet J]

Likely not worth it's own thread, but is this t-shirt racist? It's made by a surfing clothing company. Stupid sure, but racist? You be the judge....

Sometimes I hate the internet.

 

[humpback]

Can you guys all leave Starbucks and go back to work please?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

Good point, it's possible he fell before that I guess. I haven't read all that much on accounts of the incident.

Anyway, the problem with the bolded is that an investigation will almost never show this to be true. That's the nature of racial bias. Unless you're in the KKK or the Ferguson PD, you're generally not gonna be stupid enough to document your racism verbally or in writing. But we know it exists in law enforcement and is widespread. So are we expecting people to just forget about that, and about the fact that personal experience often suggests that blacks and whites are treated differently (see my discussion of how I commit misdemeanors on par with Eric Garner's all the time, and so do most people), and instead just pretend we live in a color-blind world when it comes to a specific incident?

According to this statement then, every confrontation between a black person and a police officer is racist...It has to be, because even after an investigation shows otherwise..the racism was just well hidden from the investigator...I'm sorry but your statement seems more racist than the incidents you protest.

I didn't say anything remotely close to this.

I've noticed you do this a lot. Please don't. I say enough stupid #### as it is, I don't need someone claiming I said some stupid #### I didn't say.

Again I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I really don't see another way to interpret what you are saying. From what I can understand is that unless you hear something racist said or see it written..the racism can be hidden and no investigation will shine a light on it.

 

[timschochet]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Tobias - I think we discussed this earlier in this thread, but you keep talking (in pretty much every single post) about the "overwhelming" "mountain of evidence" of "widespread" racism within LE. I recall looking at the studies you posted previously, and I won't argue that there isn't some data to support this. In particular, I remember statistics that indicated that blacks are arrested more often than whites on drug offenses, yet when surveyed, both claim to use illegal drugs at roughly similar rates. I also remember statistics that showed unfair sentencing within the judicial system. However, there are other factors involved here, not the least of which is that blacks actually do commit more crimes than whites. I think that was the case for pretty much everything except for alcohol related offenses.

Not sure what you're saying. The data shows that racism in law enforcement is widespread, even when you account for varying crime rates (for example by looking at sentencing for the same crimes, or looking at % of traffic stops resulting in seized contraband vs frequency of traffic stops, or looking at arrest rates for crimes we know white people commit at rates similar to or in greater numbers than black people). Sure there's other factors that might affect overall arrest rates and other data, but those studies isolate those factors and still find overwhelming evidence of bias.

What I'm saying is that I think you're overstating your case. You can go ahead and quote your statistics again if you want, and I'll review again, but I don't think the data was as convincing as you make it out to be.

Do I think you're way off base and completely wrong? No.

Do I think the folks in here arguing that most people, regardless of race, that follow orders from police get by just fine and aren't randomly assaulted for no reason are way off base and completely wrong? No.

As with most hotly debated topics, there are multiple factors, and the truth lies somewhere in the murky middle.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

Eh. Like I said before, I choose my "battles" and engage people whose perspective I enjoy hearing. No harm done,maybe we even find some common ground. Plus it's a good way to kill some time instead of just sitting here stressing about UNC's game tonight.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

I will most gladly acknowledge racism when racism is proven. I will not automatically assume a white police officer is guilty of racism when confronting a black person in the dispatch of his duties...That is exactly what is happening as of late. Anytime a white police officer has a high profile confrontation with a black person he is automatically a racist. This latest incident wasn't even high profile. I wonder how many college students were arrested across this nation this past weekend for drunken disorderly.

 

[matttyl]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

So Tim, do you right now believe that the recent UVA student incident was because of a racist officer? I don't want to come across as taking sides, and likely the police were in the wrong here - but it's a distinct possibility that he has nothing to do with race. I posted a link to this same law enforcement division pulling a gun on a white girl (also UVA student) a year or two ago who only bought bottled water - and then they threw her in jail. When they overstepped their bounds there race was never mentioned once as a motivation, but when they overstep their bounds against a black student it's immediately classified as racist.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

Good point, it's possible he fell before that I guess. I haven't read all that much on accounts of the incident.

Anyway, the problem with the bolded is that an investigation will almost never show this to be true. That's the nature of racial bias. Unless you're in the KKK or the Ferguson PD, you're generally not gonna be stupid enough to document your racism verbally or in writing. But we know it exists in law enforcement and is widespread. So are we expecting people to just forget about that, and about the fact that personal experience often suggests that blacks and whites are treated differently (see my discussion of how I commit misdemeanors on par with Eric Garner's all the time, and so do most people), and instead just pretend we live in a color-blind world when it comes to a specific incident?

According to this statement then, every confrontation between a black person and a police officer is racist...It has to be, because even after an investigation shows otherwise..the racism was just well hidden from the investigator...I'm sorry but your statement seems more racist than the incidents you protest.

I didn't say anything remotely close to this.

I've noticed you do this a lot. Please don't. I say enough stupid #### as it is, I don't need someone claiming I said some stupid #### I didn't say.

Again I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I really don't see another way to interpret what you are saying. From what I can understand is that unless you hear something racist said or see it written..the racism can be hidden and no investigation will shine a light on it.

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

 

[matttyl]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

 

[Rayderr]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

Here's the thing Tim, we don't know if racism was a factor in this case. Not you, not me, not Tobias, not Ditka, no one. Yet there are people that will jump to one side or another 5 seconds after hearing about the incident and knowing nothing else about the incident other than the skin color of the "victim" and the officer. It is just as wrong to say race had nothing to do with this case (or any others) as it is to say race had everything to do with it.

And even if the cop is shown to have used excessive force, that still doesn't mean he's racist, because believe it or not, a crappy cop <> a racist cop.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'd say the problem is cops acting improperly, both in this case (I'm guessing- it's possible this kid did something that necessitated being thrown down and having his skull busted like that, but it's hard to imagine) and in the mountains of data that clearly demonstrate racist law enforcement practices.

A good way to not be accused of being a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole. Nobody can tell if your actions are motivated by race or not, but the other part is pretty easy to tell. If you're an ###hole and you're in an industry whose racism has been demonstrated to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's just how it's gonna go down. Fair? Maybe not. But like I said, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that problem.

We still don't know that he was "thrown down". The video only shows the aftermath. For all he know he was drunk and fell when confronted by and struggling with the officer(s). Assuming that the police "beat him" and only did so because of his color are perpetuating the issues of race relations and police relations. If the upcoming investigation shows those to be true, then let justice do it's thing - but lets not immediately jump to either conclusion.

Good point, it's possible he fell before that I guess. I haven't read all that much on accounts of the incident.

Anyway, the problem with the bolded is that an investigation will almost never show this to be true. That's the nature of racial bias. Unless you're in the KKK or the Ferguson PD, you're generally not gonna be stupid enough to document your racism verbally or in writing. But we know it exists in law enforcement and is widespread. So are we expecting people to just forget about that, and about the fact that personal experience often suggests that blacks and whites are treated differently (see my discussion of how I commit misdemeanors on par with Eric Garner's all the time, and so do most people), and instead just pretend we live in a color-blind world when it comes to a specific incident?

According to this statement then, every confrontation between a black person and a police officer is racist...It has to be, because even after an investigation shows otherwise..the racism was just well hidden from the investigator...I'm sorry but your statement seems more racist than the incidents you protest.

I didn't say anything remotely close to this.

I've noticed you do this a lot. Please don't. I say enough stupid #### as it is, I don't need someone claiming I said some stupid #### I didn't say.

Again I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I really don't see another way to interpret what you are saying. From what I can understand is that unless you hear something racist said or see it written..the racism can be hidden and no investigation will shine a light on it.

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

I think our philosophies are different. When I read about a crime and police officers I side with the police officers unless evidence shows otherwise. You side with the suspect until evidence shows otherwise and no offense even when evidence shows otherwise ( you still question the Mike Brown incident). It is going to be hard to convince me that a large % of cops are criminals/racist. It won't be hard at all to convince me that criminals are criminals.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

It implies racism which incites people unnecessarily. If we all want to be considered equal shouldn't it simply say... "UVA student beaten by police".

 

[Rayderr]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

 

[timschochet]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

So Tim, do you right now believe that the recent UVA student incident was because of a racist officer? I don't want to come across as taking sides, and likely the police were in the wrong here - but it's a distinct possibility that he has nothing to do with race. I posted a link to this same law enforcement division pulling a gun on a white girl (also UVA student) a year or two ago who only bought bottled water - and then they threw her in jail. When they overstepped their bounds there race was never mentioned once as a motivation, but when they overstep their bounds against a black student it's immediately classified as racist.

i have no idea about UVA. It wouldn't surprise me either way. If you read my previous posts here you would know I am very critical of people who cry racism falsely, but I admit to being much more critical of those who seek to deny it.

To be honest, if I were a young black male living in this country I would be automatically suspicious of all such incidents and I would assume racism unless it was proved to me that it wasnt. Given the history, given the evidence of continuing racism I have a hard time not doing that anyhow.

 

[jonessed]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

So Tim, do you right now believe that the recent UVA student incident was because of a racist officer? I don't want to come across as taking sides, and likely the police were in the wrong here - but it's a distinct possibility that he has nothing to do with race. I posted a link to this same law enforcement division pulling a gun on a white girl (also UVA student) a year or two ago who only bought bottled water - and then they threw her in jail. When they overstepped their bounds there race was never mentioned once as a motivation, but when they overstep their bounds against a black student it's immediately classified as racist.

i have no idea about UVA. It wouldn't surprise me either way. If you read my previous posts here you would know I am very critical of people who cry racism falsely, but I admit to being much more critical of those who seek to deny it.

To be honest, if I were a young black male living in this country I would be automatically suspicious of all such incidents and I would assume racism unless it was proved to me that it wasnt. Given the history, given the evidence of continuing racism I have a hard time not doing that anyhow.

Do you see how assuming racism unless someone can prove a negative is setting up an impossible and utterly ridiculous hurdle?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

Why should we blame them for doing their jobs? We expect them to keep law and order. That is the definition of Law Enforcement.

 

[Doug B]

To be honest, if I were a young black male living in this country I would be automatically suspicious of all such incidents and I would assume racism unless it was proved to me that it wasnt.

This is an impossibility.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

Why should we blame them for doing their jobs? We expect them to keep law and order. That is the definition of Law Enforcement.

Again I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I said we should reserve some blame for the current tension and conflict for those who did their job improperly (with latent or express racial bias), since that's a big part of this tendency to allege racism in law enforcement. Not that we should blame all cops.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

So Tim, do you right now believe that the recent UVA student incident was because of a racist officer? I don't want to come across as taking sides, and likely the police were in the wrong here - but it's a distinct possibility that he has nothing to do with race. I posted a link to this same law enforcement division pulling a gun on a white girl (also UVA student) a year or two ago who only bought bottled water - and then they threw her in jail. When they overstepped their bounds there race was never mentioned once as a motivation, but when they overstep their bounds against a black student it's immediately classified as racist.

i have no idea about UVA. It wouldn't surprise me either way.If you read my previous posts here you would know I am very critical of people who cry racism falsely, but I admit to being much more critical of those who seek to deny it.

To be honest, if I were a young black male living in this country I would be automatically suspicious of all such incidents and I would assume racism unless it was proved to me that it wasnt. Given the history, given the evidence of continuing racism I have a hard time not doing that anyhow.

And right here is why racism still exists. No matter how much progress is made in this country, racism will never be a non-issue. The race card will be played till the end of time.

 

[timschochet]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

Why should we blame them for doing their jobs? We expect them to keep law and order. That is the definition of Law Enforcement.

Again I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I said we should reserve some blame for the current tension and conflict for those who did their job improperly (with latent or express racial bias), since that's a big part of this tendency to allege racism in law enforcement. Not that we should blame all cops.

It is simply your opinion that they did their job improperly. This newest case we know nothing about and you have already leaned toward racism. Again why are you so quick to give the person committing the crime/offense and not the police the benefit of the doubt?

 

[Sweet J]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

So Tim, do you right now believe that the recent UVA student incident was because of a racist officer? I don't want to come across as taking sides, and likely the police were in the wrong here - but it's a distinct possibility that he has nothing to do with race. I posted a link to this same law enforcement division pulling a gun on a white girl (also UVA student) a year or two ago who only bought bottled water - and then they threw her in jail. When they overstepped their bounds there race was never mentioned once as a motivation, but when they overstep their bounds against a black student it's immediately classified as racist.

i have no idea about UVA. It wouldn't surprise me either way.If you read my previous posts here you would know I am very critical of people who cry racism falsely, but I admit to being much more critical of those who seek to deny it.

To be honest, if I were a young black male living in this country I would be automatically suspicious of all such incidents and I would assume racism unless it was proved to me that it wasnt. Given the history, given the evidence of continuing racism I have a hard time not doing that anyhow.

And right here is why racism still exists. No matter how much progress is made in this country, racism will never be a non-issue. The race card will be played till the end of time.

THAT's the reason racism still exists? REALLY? Holy christ, at least we all know what we are dealing with here.

Sure, we all just heard a bunch of white guys in the south changing about hanging a nggr from a tree. So it's refressiong to hear you think those guys were chanting that because "blacks are too suspicious" about incidents with police.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

Seriously do you think it is possible to reach this nirvana? I would say the overall majority of this country has already proven they are not racist by electing a black president to two terms.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Tobias you're fighting the good fight here and I commend you for it, but these guys will NEVER acknowledge the racism, and they will ALWAYS take the side of the police. I gave up a while back; it's pointless.

So Tim, do you right now believe that the recent UVA student incident was because of a racist officer? I don't want to come across as taking sides, and likely the police were in the wrong here - but it's a distinct possibility that he has nothing to do with race. I posted a link to this same law enforcement division pulling a gun on a white girl (also UVA student) a year or two ago who only bought bottled water - and then they threw her in jail. When they overstepped their bounds there race was never mentioned once as a motivation, but when they overstep their bounds against a black student it's immediately classified as racist.

i have no idea about UVA. It wouldn't surprise me either way.If you read my previous posts here you would know I am very critical of people who cry racism falsely, but I admit to being much more critical of those who seek to deny it.

To be honest, if I were a young black male living in this country I would be automatically suspicious of all such incidents and I would assume racism unless it was proved to me that it wasnt. Given the history, given the evidence of continuing racism I have a hard time not doing that anyhow.

And right here is why racism still exists. No matter how much progress is made in this country, racism will never be a non-issue. The race card will be played till the end of time.

THAT's the reason racism still exists? REALLY? Holy christ, at least we all know what we are dealing with here.

Sure, we all just heard a bunch of white guys in the south changing about hanging a nggr from a tree. So it's refressiong to hear you think those guys were chanting that because "blacks are too suspicious" about incidents with police.

Laugh all you want but racism is a two way street. When you say bunch how many would that be of all the people who live in the south.

 

[Doug B]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

I reject that out of hand. Prejudice of all kinds is recursive. All with a stake in the matter have to drop the tug-of-war rope simultaneously.

Behavioral/societal changes will never themselves rid America of racism. It will, frankly, require forgetting. And even should that happen, some other form of prejudice will step into the breach.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

Why should we blame them for doing their jobs? We expect them to keep law and order. That is the definition of Law Enforcement.

Again I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I said we should reserve some blame for the current tension and conflict for those who did their job improperly (with latent or express racial bias), since that's a big part of this tendency to allege racism in law enforcement. Not that we should blame all cops.

It is simply your opinion that they did their job improperly. This newest case we know nothing about and you have already leaned toward racism. Again why are you so quick to give the person committing the crime/offense and not the police the benefit of the doubt?

I'm 100% sure that people who enforced the law with latent or express racial bias did their jobs improperly. I guess technically that's "simply my opinion," but I sure hope most people agree with it.

I've said absolutely nothing about whether I personally think the UVA officers fall into that category. I have no way of knowing that. You seem to be arguing with your assumptions of what I think rather than what I actually say.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

Why should we blame them for doing their jobs? We expect them to keep law and order. That is the definition of Law Enforcement.

Again I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I said we should reserve some blame for the current tension and conflict for those who did their job improperly (with latent or express racial bias), since that's a big part of this tendency to allege racism in law enforcement. Not that we should blame all cops.

It is simply your opinion that they did their job improperly. This newest case we know nothing about and you have already leaned toward racism. Again why are you so quick to give the person committing the crime/offense and not the police the benefit of the doubt?

I'm 100% sure that people who enforced the law with latent or express racial bias did their jobs improperly. I guess technically that's "simply my opinion," but I sure hope most people agree with it.

I've said absolutely nothing about whether I personally think the UVA officers fall into that category. I have no way of knowing that. You seem to be arguing with your assumptions of what I think rather than what I actually say.

You ask the question if race was a factor which is a close cousin of race is a factor. Why didn't you ask the question. Why would that young man commit an offense that required the police to be called and ended with his head being split open?

 

[matttyl]

I'm 100% sure that people who enforced the law with latent or express racial bias did their jobs improperly. I guess technically that's "simply my opinion," but I sure hope most people agree with it.

I've said absolutely nothing about whether I personally think the UVA officers fall into that category. I have no way of knowing that. You seem to be arguing with your assumptions of what I think rather than what I actually say.

TB, I'm sorry but your first post about this situation was....."Did you ever get turned away from a bar after trying to use a fake ID in college? How about your white friends? Any of you end up pinned to the ground by the cops and bleeding from the head?" In your third post you said "let alone slammed to the pavement causing their head to bleed". You obviously felt the officer did something improper (which I agree with) and did so become of the color of the student's skin.

You're alleging racism played a factor in this specific case. So are the headlines. I know that's what I have a problem with, and I believe what many others here also have issue with as well. We'll never improve as a society if we continue to think that because one person in a group is racist (other officers), they all likely are - or even likely could be. What does that get us other than everyone mistrusting police officers? You know my profession, and there are some in it who aren't honest. The same can be said of doctors, lawyers, accountants, nearly every profession - but that doesn't mean that all of that profession share that same unflattering trait.

 

[jonessed]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

Seriously do you think it is possible to reach this nirvana? I would say the overall majority of this country has already proven they are not racist by electing a black president to two terms.

If you can't make it happen you only have yourself to blame.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'm 100% sure that people who enforced the law with latent or express racial bias did their jobs improperly. I guess technically that's "simply my opinion," but I sure hope most people agree with it.

I've said absolutely nothing about whether I personally think the UVA officers fall into that category. I have no way of knowing that. You seem to be arguing with your assumptions of what I think rather than what I actually say.

TB, I'm sorry but your first post about this situation was....."Did you ever get turned away from a bar after trying to use a fake ID in college? How about your white friends? Any of you end up pinned to the ground by the cops and bleeding from the head?" In your third post you said "let alone slammed to the pavement causing their head to bleed". You obviously felt the officer did something improper (which I agree with) and did so become of the color of the student's skin.

Nope. I was explaining why people could reasonably ask if race was a factor, not concluding that it was.

I've said the same thing several times w/r/t several incidents, most notably the Eric Garner incident. What I've said is: if you have done something similar to the behavior of a black "victim" of law enforcement tactics but weren't treated similarly, and if you've seen lots of white people do likewise, it's totally reasonable to ask if the reason for the disparate treatment is race, to demand a closer look, etc. I never said you'd be justified in concluding that it was racially motivated, and I definitely never made that conclusion myself.

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

 

[matttyl]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.

Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

You will never get completely rid of racism, or more generally, prejudice. We humans love our pattern recognition abilities, and we love to segregate "us vs them". It's in our DNA. I think a lot of today's discussion demonstrates that. Most of us have pre-judged the UVA incident without having all of the facts, based on our predispositions going in. Hopefully, most of us are smart enough to 1.) recognize this and 2.) be open to changing our minds once all of the facts come out.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.

Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

This story about the white female student. She was not jailed "for buying bottled water". She "spent the night in jail and was charged with eluding police and multiple counts of assaulting an officer". The bottled water part makes for a good headline, but it's not really the whole story.

 

[matttyl]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.

Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

This story about the white female student. She was not jailed "for buying bottled water". She "spent the night in jail and was charged with eluding police and multiple counts of assaulting an officer". The bottled water part makes for a good headline, but it's not really the whole story.

You're mostly correct - she "eluded" the plain clothes dressed ABC officers (same department as the recent incident) who surrounded her car in the parking lot. She didn't know who they were (as they were plain clothes) and when one of them pulled a gun and another attempted to bash in her windows, she sped off and clipped one with her mirror - "assaulting an officer". "Police" (as in town, city, or state) were never involved - just ABC officers. In a town like Charlottesville, VA you don't expect 6 plain clothes officers to surround your car in the parking lot of a grocery store.

The ABC officers admitted their fault and paid her a settlement of $200k. They were obviously in the wrong then (same department, same town, student of the same school) and race had nothing to do with it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.

Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

Yeah I think if people knew that about Virginia ABC that would be equally justified in recognizing that history here. But they don't.

With Sterling- no, but if there were several NBA current/recent owners that were racist, then yeah, I'd expect people to consider whether race played a role if another owner did something dooshy.