Mario Williams over Vince Young and Bush (1 Viewer)

[coolnerd]

Who would have thought that by 2011, only Williams would still be with the team which drafted him.

In a position he wasn't drafted for.New Bruce Smith? Doubt it.

I am not a fan of this move. Has there ever been a 3-4 LB this size, let alone an effective one? Even if it works out, I STILL think it's a waste. Stud 3-4 LBs come out every year, you can find them. 6'7", 290 lb 4-3 DEs that can play the run and the pass great? Not so much?

If I was Mario, I would be looking to exit Houston ASAP. Sucks, because I love reading the Bush/Young backers sucking on their words, and I root for Houston to do well.

Hope I am wrong, but I cannot see Mario ever being close to as good a LB as he is a DE.

People are getting to cuaght up in name over function with this one. Williams plays the position called pass rusher. Like Ware in Wade's Dallas defense we will be rushing the passer 90 plus percent of the time. Depending on the team they are facing and game situation in a given week he will in three point stance 40 to 60% of the time. Can Mario rush the passer consistently from a two-point stance? That is a fair legitimate question. But he is not dropping into the flat covering tailbacks and TEs 25 times a game as even some ex-players will have you believe.

As for contract, my understanding is that this is the last year of his rookie deal, and depending on how both the Texans and Mario do he could away from his original team also.

 

[massraider]

Who would have thought that by 2011, only Williams would still be with the team which drafted him.

In a position he wasn't drafted for.New Bruce Smith? Doubt it.

I am not a fan of this move. Has there ever been a 3-4 LB this size, let alone an effective one? Even if it works out, I STILL think it's a waste. Stud 3-4 LBs come out every year, you can find them. 6'7", 290 lb 4-3 DEs that can play the run and the pass great? Not so much?

If I was Mario, I would be looking to exit Houston ASAP. Sucks, because I love reading the Bush/Young backers sucking on their words, and I root for Houston to do well.

Hope I am wrong, but I cannot see Mario ever being close to as good a LB as he is a DE.

People are getting to cuaght up in name over function with this one. Williams plays the position called pass rusher. Like Ware in Wade's Dallas defense we will be rushing the passer 90 plus percent of the time. Depending on the team they are facing and game situation in a given week he will in three point stance 40 to 60% of the time. Can Mario rush the passer consistently from a two-point stance? That is a fair legitimate question. But he is not dropping into the flat covering tailbacks and TEs 25 times a game as even some ex-players will have you believe.

As for contract, my understanding is that this is the last year of his rookie deal, and depending on how both the Texans and Mario do he could away from his original team also.

A fair point, and I know the Texans won't be using as a coverage guy. I don't think it'll be a complete disaster, just not sure if its the BEST use of his talents. I feel that way about Cush and Ryans too. And the big deal is, his next deal, is he a DE or LB? Because top money for a 4-3 end is bigger than 3-4 OLB money. I could see a franchise tag battle.

 

[GregR]

Who would have thought that by 2011, only Williams would still be with the team which drafted him.

In a position he wasn't drafted for.New Bruce Smith? Doubt it.

I am not a fan of this move. Has there ever been a 3-4 LB this size, let alone an effective one? Even if it works out, I STILL think it's a waste. Stud 3-4 LBs come out every year, you can find them. 6'7", 290 lb 4-3 DEs that can play the run and the pass great? Not so much?

If I was Mario, I would be looking to exit Houston ASAP. Sucks, because I love reading the Bush/Young backers sucking on their words, and I root for Houston to do well.

Hope I am wrong, but I cannot see Mario ever being close to as good a LB as he is a DE.

People are getting to cuaght up in name over function with this one. Williams plays the position called pass rusher. Like Ware in Wade's Dallas defense we will be rushing the passer 90 plus percent of the time. Depending on the team they are facing and game situation in a given week he will in three point stance 40 to 60% of the time. Can Mario rush the passer consistently from a two-point stance? That is a fair legitimate question. But he is not dropping into the flat covering tailbacks and TEs 25 times a game as even some ex-players will have you believe.

As for contract, my understanding is that this is the last year of his rookie deal, and depending on how both the Texans and Mario do he could away from his original team also.

A fair point, and I know the Texans won't be using as a coverage guy. I don't think it'll be a complete disaster, just not sure if its the BEST use of his talents. I feel that way about Cush and Ryans too. And the big deal is, his next deal, is he a DE or LB? Because top money for a 4-3 end is bigger than 3-4 OLB money. I could see a franchise tag battle.

That's a good point about how position can impact franchise tag money.As far as dropping into coverage and all, I think I heard somewhere in the last couple of days that Demarcus Ware dropped into coverage 5 times during the entire 2010 season. So it's definitely in the realm of Phillips' scheme to not have Mario dropping like a LB. I think there are some added responsibilities though from what Barwin was saying. Though he does get dropped into coverage more.

 

[coolnerd]

Who would have thought that by 2011, only Williams would still be with the team which drafted him.

In a position he wasn't drafted for.New Bruce Smith? Doubt it.

I am not a fan of this move. Has there ever been a 3-4 LB this size, let alone an effective one? Even if it works out, I STILL think it's a waste. Stud 3-4 LBs come out every year, you can find them. 6'7", 290 lb 4-3 DEs that can play the run and the pass great? Not so much?

If I was Mario, I would be looking to exit Houston ASAP. Sucks, because I love reading the Bush/Young backers sucking on their words, and I root for Houston to do well.

Hope I am wrong, but I cannot see Mario ever being close to as good a LB as he is a DE.

People are getting to cuaght up in name over function with this one. Williams plays the position called pass rusher. Like Ware in Wade's Dallas defense we will be rushing the passer 90 plus percent of the time. Depending on the team they are facing and game situation in a given week he will in three point stance 40 to 60% of the time. Can Mario rush the passer consistently from a two-point stance? That is a fair legitimate question. But he is not dropping into the flat covering tailbacks and TEs 25 times a game as even some ex-players will have you believe.

As for contract, my understanding is that this is the last year of his rookie deal, and depending on how both the Texans and Mario do he could away from his original team also.

A fair point, and I know the Texans won't be using as a coverage guy. I don't think it'll be a complete disaster, just not sure if its the BEST use of his talents. I feel that way about Cush and Ryans too. And the big deal is, his next deal, is he a DE or LB? Because top money for a 4-3 end is bigger than 3-4 OLB money. I could see a franchise tag battle.

Honestly, Mario scares me as free agent right now. Essentially, he is good to very good player the Texans are going to have pay top dolloer elite money, since it is doubtful there will be a better pass rusher in free agency next year.

My formula/syllogism :

Elite money for very good non-elite equals bad contracts that kill teams long-term.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I feel for the Houston Texans and their fan base. Peyton Manning has been to Houston what Joe Montana was like in the NFC West all those years. I want them to get over the hump but I am with CoolNerd that they have to try and get the emotion out of it and not lock guys up with huge money contracts if they are not really at the level that the pay would indicate.

New England is the blue print IMO for how to spend money within the cap. They have been rebuilding much of their defense the last couple years and they managed to go 14-2 last year...its just not fair.

 

[Buckna]

I was not a fan of the Wade Phillips hire mainly because of the switch to a 3-4 when what little solid personnel we have are best suited to play a 4-3. But in the end it will come down to winning games so even if these guys aren't standout's in their new positions, it won't matter if they function better as a unit and put up some W's.

Mario is in a very strange situation. I think he will be solid to ok in his transition the first year but likely won't have the performance to command an elite contract like what was stated. Houston may be over a barrel in regards to the cap next year as well as we have a few other players that are going to need new contracts soon (Schaub & Foster for example), so I don't know if they can afford to tag him, but they aren't going to let him go without compensation either.

Next year we may see something similar to what happened to Jared Allen where Mario is traded to a 4-3 team for a couple of picks. I hope not though, would rather see him succeed since he finally has a defensive coordinator worth his salt.

 

[GregR]

I'm with you on next off-season being scary with Mario, coolnerd. I could see things playing out to where the best thing for the Texans would be to franchise Mario and then trade him to another team for, say, a 1st and a 3rd. Something just under the two 1sts another team would have to give up if they just signed him while he's franchised.

For that to happen, I think they need at least two out of Barwin, Reed, Nading and Braman to show they can excel at OLB.

Though that said, I won't put it past Mario to have a big year this year. I was watching the game again last night and he didn't have a bad game rushing the passer. Most of Sanchez's passes were one step back and throw a 5 yard or less pass. There were only about 3-4 plays on which anyone had a chance to get to the QB. One of them was the bootleg away from Mario's side so really there were only about 3 plays where Mario had a chance to get to the QB. And he got there on one of them... the Adibi sack, if Adibi hadn't gotten there first coming in unblocked, Mario and Barwin both would have gotten him a half step later. Mario stunted up the middle and was held by Ducasse but still got there.

Too small a sample size to say much about yet.

 

[GregR]

I feel for the Houston Texans and their fan base. Peyton Manning has been to Houston what Joe Montana was like in the NFC West all those years. I want them to get over the hump but I am with CoolNerd that they have to try and get the emotion out of it and not lock guys up with huge money contracts if they are not really at the level that the pay would indicate. New England is the blue print IMO for how to spend money within the cap. They have been rebuilding much of their defense the last couple years and they managed to go 14-2 last year...its just not fair.

And I'll give you one guess which player has sacked Peyton Manning more than any other.

 

[dhockster]

Honestly, Mario scares me as free agent right now. Essentially, he is good to very good player the Texans are going to have pay top dolloer elite money, since it is doubtful there will be a better pass rusher in free agency next year. My formula/syllogism : Elite money for very good non-elite equals bad contracts that kill teams long-term.

For the Texans to start being a playoff/top tier team, they have to start making roster decisions based on value and dollars, rather than loyalty.While I think loyalty is a great trait most of the time, sticking with players you have had for a while and having to overpay for diminishingtalent is a quick way to get into cap trouble. NE and Phi remain playoff teams year in and year out because they tend to release players before their salary exceeds their value.If Mario had had a Bruce Smith/Reggie White career path up to this point, then you would definitely keep him. He has just not been the elite typeplayer that you should be paying top dollar for.

 

[coolnerd]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/17/defending-mario-williams-outside-linebacker/

just in time for this discussion

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

Is it a foregone conclusion that Mario is a bust and Bush and Young are HOF'ers? This thread is ridiculous since only time will tell if taking Mario was the right move for the Texans - that means them eventually winning a Super Bowl. Even if Mario is just an above-average DE he might be a reason that the Texans become playoff contenders. With Bush doing great it's easy to forget that he could have easily been Barry Sanders in Houston - a great player on a bad team. Regarding Young, he's still a long way from being better than David Carr. He does some good things but he's not a good QB yet.

From a marketing prospective, its a forgone conclusion its a disaster. Mario has about zero cache or personality. He'll need to perform significantly better then either Bush or especially Young to make up for that shortcoming.As for Carr, Young was better then him today and he's been better then him the past several weeks. VY may not have the passing numbers, but he's done what he's needed to do to win - just like he's done at every level. Carr may have a very high completion percentage in some games, but he doesn't create points or sustain drives like VY already does, and he never will. I've been watching Carr for 5 years now, and he's not that good. He can be serviceable, but he wont be a player that will carry teams.

Well, the Saints did sell a lot of tickets and won a SB.

 

[MDSkinner]

Who would have thought that by 2011, only Williams would still be with the team which drafted him.

Also the only starter of the three (Bush is certainly no starting RB, even if he does start ST).