DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Hi Cappy. Sorry about your Bucs.
so nice that the raiders had a hand in keeping both denver & the bucs out of the playoffs. go colts!
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Martyball no more? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter trader jake
- Start date
so nice that the raiders had a hand in keeping both denver & the bucs out of the playoffs. go colts!
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Hmm, and now the Chargers have won at least one playoff game two years in a row. The last time that happened was 1981/1982.Can you elaborate on this hump that the Chargers gambled Turner could get them over and lost?
congrats Chargers fans. heck of a run.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
hats off to your Bills - w/o their help this run wouldn't be possible.
E-A-G-L-E-S
Footballguy
Die
Footballguy
The amazing thing is, if they can somehow get past the Steelers, the Chargers could very well be looking at playing at home in the AFC title game because the Ravens are the 6 seed. Could turn into the most memorable season ever for San Diego. To go from 4-8 to hosting the AFC title game?
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
Late hot streaks seem to be the only way that the Chargers can get to the Super Bowl. Such a scenario would be a carbon copy of 1994. I'd also add that a Chargers-Giants Super Bowl would have a pretty incredible set of storylines.Die said:
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
nice finish to the season. nice win over indy. seriously. showed a lot of heart i didn't think you had. enjoy getting the #### kicked out of you in pittsburg.tommyGunZ said:
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
In 1994, the Chargers won their first 6 games of the season and were the last undefeated team in the league. They finished the season as the #2 seed in their conference, earning a opening-round bye.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
Oops, you're right. I was thinking of their 1995 season when they won a bunch of games in a row to finish with 9 wins and a wild card berth.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
LOLSd dont get blown out, they might lose, but it will be far from a butt kickin
trader jake
Footballguy
TGunz
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
The irony of this thread bump is that if the Chargers lose this weekend at Pittsburgh, Norv's record in San Diego is one in which he inherited a 14-win team that was considered the best in its conference (the early playoff exit notwithstanding) and transformed it into an 11-win team that lost in the conference championship game (only after a surprising late season run), and then further parlayed it into a 8-8 team that squeaked into the playoffs as the winner of a division nobody wanted.
I've been as loud of a critic of Norv as anyone here, and rightfully so given his coaching past. I will acknowledge that his coaching the last 14 months or so has been the best of his career, though that's faint praise indeed. But I'd also point out that the thinking 24 months ago, when he was belatedly hired after Schotty was belatedly fired, was that this was an excellent, veteran team that needed someone in a headset on the sideline to stay out of the way far more than it needed someone to lead it. Given that I can't really point to anything that Norv has personally done and must derive any compliment for him solely from the team's success, I'd have to say that they seem to have hired exactly that.
As Winston Churchill once said, there is no greater thrill a man can experience than to be shot at and missed. Norv's essentially coached like that for two years in a row, relying upon two late-season runs to make the playoffs. That thrill shouldn't hide the fact however that he's very much in the line of fire.
I've been as loud of a critic of Norv as anyone here, and rightfully so given his coaching past. I will acknowledge that his coaching the last 14 months or so has been the best of his career, though that's faint praise indeed. But I'd also point out that the thinking 24 months ago, when he was belatedly hired after Schotty was belatedly fired, was that this was an excellent, veteran team that needed someone in a headset on the sideline to stay out of the way far more than it needed someone to lead it. Given that I can't really point to anything that Norv has personally done and must derive any compliment for him solely from the team's success, I'd have to say that they seem to have hired exactly that.
As Winston Churchill once said, there is no greater thrill a man can experience than to be shot at and missed. Norv's essentially coached like that for two years in a row, relying upon two late-season runs to make the playoffs. That thrill shouldn't hide the fact however that he's very much in the line of fire.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
winning in the playoffs is all that matter isnt it? Who cares about regular season records if you get in the playoffs and win?Marty in the playoffs 0-2 Norv 3-1 and counting
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
All of that is great. Barry Switzer was 5-2 in the playoffs, including a Super Bowl victory. Meanwhile the Cowboys deteriorated under him. Again, I just don't see a good case here for this success being attributable to Norv, and if the best you can do is argue that he has a better playoff record than Marty did . . . well, think about that for a second. Ultimately, yes, but I'm looking at this team a little more circumspectly and I'm seeing a 14-2 team that has steadily declined and become inconsistent. How does this bode well for the future?
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Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
I will trade they inconsistent yet highly competitive Chargers with 3 playoff wins over the past 12 months, over the great regular season one and done version.
CalBear
Footballguy
Good thing Norv kicks fields goals much better than Schottenheimer did.
Gold Plated Nails
Footballguy
Norv gets the kicker closer, just like on Saturday, he dosen't settle for 45 yarders in the rain. I still can't believe he basically ran middle to lineup for that FG. But by all means, please continue to convice us that Marty should still be in SD.
Tau837
Footballguy
A few things:1. No matter who was coaching the Chargers last year, they were unlikely to repeat their 14-2 regular season from the previous season. There are a lot of variables that would likely have resulted in some regression (e.g., bad calls or bad bounces at innopportune times, injuries, attrition, etc.), and their schedule was much harder in 2007 than in 2006.2. While you are what your record says you are (cue Denny Green), it is still true that the Chargers' 8-8 record this season does not reflect how good the team really is. For one thing, Hochuli took away a win, so it is definitely fair to say they were really a 9-7 caliber team. On top of that, consider they lost the other 7 games, nearly all against quality opponents, by a total of 33 points. I know every team can play the what if game, but if the intent is to truly assess how good the team is, I think they are better than their record. And, again, I believe their schedule was harder this year than in 2006.3. So while it is factually correct to say that the team has gone from 14-2 under Marty to 11-5 and then 8-8 under Norv, I think the team is really just as competitive as it was in 2006.4. Also note that in 2006, Marty took a "CEO" head coaching role, like the one you are suggesting Norv has had with the Chargers. As I understand it, for the first time that year, Marty fully turned over playcalling to his coordinators. So I'm not really sure what is so different between his role in the Chargers' success and Norv's. (Recall that entering 2006, Marty's record with the Chargers was 33-32, including 0-1 in the postseason, so the Chargers didn't really have a lot of success under Marty prior to 2006.) ETA: Actually, Norv calls the plays on offense, so he is doing more than Marty did in 2006.5. Marty has an absolutely terrible playoff coaching record, including 0-2 with the Chargers, both times losing at home to a lower seed. It was time for a change, given he had gotten the Chargers to the point where the next step was winning playoff games. Norv has helped the team to take that next step, leading the Chargers to a 3-1 postseason record and counting, with one AFC title game appearance so far... the first time they have won playoff games in consecutive seasons since 1981/1982. Thus far, the Norv hiring has to be viewed as a success IMO.6. The team may very well not be as talented as they were in 2006. Two years is a long time in the NFL. Consider:- LT was 1st team All Pro in 2006. This year he had the worst season of his career and played through multiple injuries.- Gates was 1st team All Pro in 2006. This year he had his worst season since 2003, his rookie year, and played through multiple injuries.- Lorenzo Neal was 1st team All Pro in 2006 and is no longer with the team.- Michael Turner was an outstanding backup RB in 2006 and is no longer with the team... Sproles has been great, but I don't think he is Turner's equal as a runner.- Jamal Williams was 1st team All Pro in 2006 and is now on the decline at age 32.- Merriman was 1st team All Pro in 2006 and missed this season due to injury.- Randall Godfrey and Donnie Edwards were the starting inside LBs in 2006 and neither remains with the team. They were both 33 in 2006, so the Chargers did need to get younger there, but it has definitely hurt their defense on the field as they went through that transition.Do you agree that those circumstances have reduced the talent on the team? Do you think that is Norv's fault?Meanwhile, Norv has presided over the significant improvement of players like Vincent Jackson, Malcolm Floyd, and Antonio Cromartie. I suspect Sproles would have always been good if healthy and given the opportunity, but the fact remains that Norv has given him that opportunity.I guess my point on this item is that the team's talent level probably peaked in 2006, so Norv has achieved his results with at least a bit less talent.7. I'm not saying Norv is one of the best coaches in the league. But IMO he is typically underrated, whereas I think Marty (or at least his success with the Chargers) is typically overrated.
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Good post JWB. Biggest factor (IMO) in the Chargers 2008 struggle has been the loss of Merriman. He was the emotional leader of the team, the badass who made Castillo, Igor, Jamal, Cromartie, and Jammer MUCH better players.
When trying to decide why the Chargers regressed in the 2008 regular season, people want to ignore the effect losing Merriman had on the team and instead point to Norv and call him a loser? That makes no sense.
When trying to decide why the Chargers regressed in the 2008 regular season, people want to ignore the effect losing Merriman had on the team and instead point to Norv and call him a loser? That makes no sense.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
I can kind of understand it. Merriman has missed significant time in previous seasons - whether due to holdouts, suspensions, or injuries - and the SD defense never seemed to drop off much without him. I know I personally underestimated his impact on this defense. It doesn't surprise me that other people who follow the team much less than I do fell under the same impression.I blame a great deal of the regression of both the defense, and subsequently the team, on the absence of Wade Philips and the total incompetence of Ted Cotrell. I've noticed some pretty significant improvement in the defense since Rivera took over as DC.
Before 2008, Merriman had missed five games in his career: one in 2007 due to injury, and four in 2006 due to suspension.The game he missed in 2007 was against the Lions. While the defense did hold the Lions to just 14 points, it gave up 19 first downs and 328 total yards -- both above their season averages. (Against the Lions.)
The four games he missed in 2006 were against the Browns, Bengals, Broncos, and Raiders. In the twelve games with Merriman, the Chargers gave up 16.3 points, 16.5 first downs, and 285 yards per game. In the four games without him, they gave up 26.8 points, 21.8 first downs, and 352 yards per game.
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I'm enjoying the sudden Darren Sproles love fest as much as anyone, but as MT's numbers show, Shawne Merriman is absolutely indispensable. AJ has to franchise him after '09 if he's back to full strength and has a great season.
I'd hate to give Sproles big money if it tightens things up to the point where resigning Lights Out is virtually impossible.
I'd hate to give Sproles big money if it tightens things up to the point where resigning Lights Out is virtually impossible.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Doesn't really matter. Mediocre offenses rarely get in FG range against playoff caliber defenses.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
You make some well thought out points but I think the big two are simply;- Norv has 3 playoff victories and counting the past two years..... coaching a franchise that hadn't won a playoff game since 1994. How anyone can try to spin that in any negative light is beyond me.- When people compare the Chargers record with Marty vs their record with Norv they choosing to be completely oblivious to the fact we don't know what Marty's record would have been WITHOUT Cam Cameron running the offense and WITHOUT Wade Philips running the defense. What they are really comparing is Norv vs Marty/Cam/Wade and there was no possible way SD could have kept Marty/Cam/Wade together...... so making the comparison is moot and more than a little dim witted imo.Meh, let 'em hate Norv and Rivers I say.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i agree & said so before the season was really under way & am surprised that the team has nutted up as well as it has over the last 5-6 games. kudos.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i still think norv is a suck ### coach though. 
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
trader jake
Footballguy
Marty needs to get another head coaching job while Norv is still employed by the Chargers.
T Bell
Footballguy
The Chargers' last 13 months are probably better used as an example of what a good franchise QB can get you rather than what a great head coach that Norv has become. Phillip Rivers is turning into an excellent QB.
As for Norv, you can try to talk yourself into the idea that he's suddenly, after all this time, become a good motivator and leader of men, but I'm not buying it. I think he's along for the ride with a largely veteran team that motivates itself and which was obviously very good when he got there.
As for Norv, you can try to talk yourself into the idea that he's suddenly, after all this time, become a good motivator and leader of men, but I'm not buying it. I think he's along for the ride with a largely veteran team that motivates itself and which was obviously very good when he got there.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i got nothing else. the raiders suck beyond belief.
but firing shotty did #### this team's chances at a SB
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In my experience, the talent level of teams under great head coaches tends to be overrated/overstated, as the head coach makes them look better. I question whether there's been another coach in league history as good at getting the most out of his players as Schottenheimer.I still think it's silly to suggest that Schotty should have been fired because he "couldn't" win in the playoffs, but I've made that argument so many times in so many different threads that there's no need to restate it all over again. It's true that his regular season record is much better than his playoff record (and even better than his playoff record would have been without some historically unlucky bounces), but how much of that was simply a factor of Schottenheimer being the only guy in the league getting his team to play to its true potential during the regular season (whereas everyone was getting their teams to play up to their potential in the playoffs, because the stakes were higher)? Are we so certain that it's a case of Schotty underachieving in the playoffs and not a case of Schotty overachieving in the regular season?Just Win Baby said:
Tau837
Footballguy
Seems a bit strange that you quoted this post more than 2 months later... and to get back on your Marty soapbox. We already had this debate numerous times, including earlier in this thread. IMO your questions here are irrelevant. Marty's record speaks for itself.And people need to get off the anti-Norv bandwagon and give him some credit. There is a good chance San Diego will win its next three games. If so, that will bring Norv's regular season record in San Diego to 32-16 to go along with his 3-2 postseason record. And he's accumulated that record while presiding over the decline and transition of Tomlinson, the OL, and much of the defense since Marty's last season with all of the Pro Bowl players. Furthermore, Norv is calling the plays very successfully for a dynamic offense.
As I posted in another thread about a month ago -- not only does Norv have the best winning percentage in the playoffs of any Charger head coach in history, but he also has the best winning percentage in the regular season.
The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
Just goes to show you how overrated coaching is. If you've got players anyone can win. Maybe Norv Turner isn't a ####### anymore but I doubt it.
Tau837
Footballguy
There was no "Super Bowl or Bust" mentality. There was a "let's win some playoff games" mentality, since at that time they hadn't won a playoff game since 1994. Norv's teams have won playoff games each year, and hopefully will do so again.
Polar Dude
Footballguy
There was also the mentality that Schottenheimer had to be stopped from sabotaging his own team just to spite his general manger. I don't really see how anyone could view his firing as anything less than justified.There was a time when Charger fans were just excited about the prospect of not finishing fifth in their division, so I think they can be excused for feeling giddy over the possibility of achieving the second most regular season wins in the history of the franchise with a team that lost its most important defensive player for the year and has been dealing with transitioning the offense away from the most dominant game-changer that it has seen since Dan Fouts (if not ever).
It seems that most people close to the Chargers think that the 2009 team is better than the 2006 team -- and in 2006 Jamal Williams and Shawne Merriman were healthy and LT was in his prime. So it's no small feat for Norv to have the Chargers playing at that level again, given all the injuries he's had to deal with.(Of course, now that people are starting jump on the Norv bandwagon, the Chargers will probably lose to the Bengals and/or Titans.)
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I've read that as well... but I'm not sure what else they are going to say really. "This team is pretty good and we're on a winning streak, but we have more holes than that '06 team that lost its only playoff game". I think the '06 team had fewer holes than this one does. The '06 team was stronger up the middle(maybe with the exception of S) and got after the QB much more. I think Norv has done a great job at managing games with the offense and hiding weaknesses in the defense.Since you mentioned the Titans, I think that will be a huge test for SD. For whatever reason several SD opponents have limited the carries by RB's that carving up the defense.F.Jones 10/51JCharles 14/93/1KMoreno 10/80BJacobs 11/67... and those are during the win streak. Give any one of those guys 25 carries and I think their team would have had a much better chance vs SD. Fisher won't make that mistake. I thought CIN may also be a big test but it's hard to guess how that team reacts to the Henry news. It may bring them together like in the BAL game earlier in the season or it might be too much of an emotional week for them to overcome. It's been the game I've been waiting for since the game @DEN.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I don't think this year's team is as good as the 14-2 '06 team, but the AFC isn't as strong this year as it was in '06, IMO, so the Chargers have a good shot in the playoffs, even with Norv at the helm.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I completely agree with that.I think the '06 Patriots or the '06 Chargers would be favorites this year in the AFC this year. This year the AFC seems completely wide open to me. Strange that so many people seem ready to write off the Patriots when they came within a foot of winning in IND just a few weeks ago. Everyone keeps waiting for CIN to completely fall on their face but they've been very solid on both sides of the line for once. That defense is for real. Really looking forward to Joseph vs Jackson this week.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Wow, I can't believe people think the '06 team is nearly as good as this team - I'm with MT. The run defense was certainly better back then, as was the running game. But Philip Rivers wore a Trent Dilfer costume all year, and the wideouts were McCardell and Eric Parker.
I'd put the Charger passing game up against anyone in football (yes, even the Saints) and the Charger secondary and LB core is much, MUCH better IMO. Rivers is light years ahead of where he was in '06, to the point where he's a top 3 MVP candidate.
This wouldn't even be close of Jamal was healthy.
I'd put the Charger passing game up against anyone in football (yes, even the Saints) and the Charger secondary and LB core is much, MUCH better IMO. Rivers is light years ahead of where he was in '06, to the point where he's a top 3 MVP candidate.
This wouldn't even be close of Jamal was healthy.
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