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Martyball no more? (1 Viewer)

He had more success in SD than anyone on this board will give him credit for. I think the whole "He had a playoff team when he took over so it was easy for him to have success" line is complete horse ####. If it's so easy for an NFL team that's winning to just keep on winning is that why there are so many dynasties in the NFL?
Barry Switzer has the best winning percentage of Cowboys coaches. George Seifert has the best winning percentage of Niner coaches. Prior to this year, Jim Caldwell had the best winning percentage of Colts coaches. The first two wound up pushed out; Caldwell is likely next. It is a lot easier to coach a good team than a bad one. Most coaches start on bad teams. Norv didn't.
:goodposting: Norv took over a very good team and had some success. While it currently appears that in hindsight some Bolt fans are okay with with the Chargers performance under Norv, I bet if you asked them what they expected when he got the job their expectation where a lot higher. After all, they were a 14-2 team.
In fairness to Norv, unlike those other guys I think he was helpful in the development of Rivers and that offense overall while he was there. He got a young team while those other guys all had veteran winning teams. Still, the basic point is correct - it's a lot easier to coach a good team than a bad one.
In other news, water is wet.
 
I bet if you asked them what they expected when he got the job their expectation where a lot higher. After all, they were a 14-2 team.
My expectation was that he would be an excellent stop-gap, a guy who could keep the show running for a couple of years until a better option was available. I never expected him to be the head coach for 5 seasons and get a contract extension.
 
I have never cared much one way or the other for the Chargers until they fired Marty. Admittedly, since then I have taken a small amount of pleasure in any of their failures. It is not that I have any love for Marty, it is that the high level of hubris associated with firing a coach that just went 14-2 is baffling. And like a Greek drama, I expect the hubris to be punished.

So yea, it is a bit childish of me. But at the same time I do enjoy when arrogance is given a reality check.

 
I have never cared much one way or the other for the Chargers until they fired Marty. Admittedly, since then I have taken a small amount of pleasure in any of their failures. It is not that I have any love for Marty, it is that the high level of hubris associated with firing a coach that just went 14-2 is baffling. And like a Greek drama, I expect the hubris to be punished.
You may want to read this thread. His firing had nothing to do with his record, good or bad, regular season or playoffs. He was fired because he orchestrated his own dismissal. I'm not sure what that has to do with the hubris of anyone in the Chargers organization.
 
I have never cared much one way or the other for the Chargers until they fired Marty. Admittedly, since then I have taken a small amount of pleasure in any of their failures. It is not that I have any love for Marty, it is that the high level of hubris associated with firing a coach that just went 14-2 is baffling. And like a Greek drama, I expect the hubris to be punished.
You may want to read this thread. His firing had nothing to do with his record, good or bad, regular season or playoffs. He was fired because he orchestrated his own dismissal. I'm not sure what that has to do with the hubris of anyone in the Chargers organization.
:goodposting:
 
I have never cared much one way or the other for the Chargers until they fired Marty. Admittedly, since then I have taken a small amount of pleasure in any of their failures. It is not that I have any love for Marty, it is that the high level of hubris associated with firing a coach that just went 14-2 is baffling. And like a Greek drama, I expect the hubris to be punished.

So yea, it is a bit childish of me. But at the same time I do enjoy when arrogance is given a reality check.
:goodposting:
You may want to read this thread. His firing had nothing to do with his record, good or bad, regular season or playoffs. He was fired because he orchestrated his own dismissal. I'm not sure what that has to do with the hubris of anyone in the Chargers organization.
It's 1300 posts long. I may be home on a Saturday night, but I'm not that bored.I'll wait until it's on ESPN 30 for 30.

 
how did he orchestrate his own dismissal? wat does that even mean?
Step 1: Broke off communications with the GM. (How would it go over at work if you refused to speak with your boss?)Step 2: Refused a contract extension, making it difficult to attract quality coaches and staff.Step 3: After both of his coordinators were hired away to be HCs (both of whom were hired as Chargers at AJ's insistence), refused to talk to potential coordinators that his GM suggested.Step 4: Persuaded other members of the coaching staff to look for similar jobs on other teams, also against the insistence of his GM.Step 5: Tried to hire unqualified family members for vacant coaching positions despite being told not to by both his GM and owner.Furthermore, Marty had turned over all playcalling duties to his coordinators in the year they went 14-2. It was the least involved in the operation of the team of his five years there. The guys who were most responsible for their record were already hired away by other teams. If they fired him over a playoff loss that occurred on January 14th, it wouldn't make much sense to wait an entire month to fire him when all of the best coaching candidates had already been snatched up.
 
Love the Marty as evil genius history lesson. He sounded like the T.O. of head coaches. "Martyball loves them some Martyball." :hophead:

Luckily San Diego hired Norv Turner or the Chargers organization would look very foolish right now.

 
I have never cared much one way or the other for the Chargers until they fired Marty. Admittedly, since then I have taken a small amount of pleasure in any of their failures. It is not that I have any love for Marty, it is that the high level of hubris associated with firing a coach that just went 14-2 is baffling. And like a Greek drama, I expect the hubris to be punished.
You may want to read this thread. His firing had nothing to do with his record, good or bad, regular season or playoffs. He was fired because he orchestrated his own dismissal. I'm not sure what that has to do with the hubris of anyone in the Chargers organization.
I have read the thread and all the justifications presented. In short I simply do not believe them. I think the fans were frustrated by the lack of post season wins and made a choice to believe a lot of rubbish presented to them by the organization.
 
I have never cared much one way or the other for the Chargers until they fired Marty. Admittedly, since then I have taken a small amount of pleasure in any of their failures. It is not that I have any love for Marty, it is that the high level of hubris associated with firing a coach that just went 14-2 is baffling. And like a Greek drama, I expect the hubris to be punished.
You may want to read this thread. His firing had nothing to do with his record, good or bad, regular season or playoffs. He was fired because he orchestrated his own dismissal. I'm not sure what that has to do with the hubris of anyone in the Chargers organization.
I have read the thread and all the justifications presented. In short I simply do not believe them. I think the fans were frustrated by the lack of post season wins and made a choice to believe a lot of rubbish presented to them by the organization.
You're correct. I don't know if it's this thread or another, but I addressed the flaws in Polar Dude's points. They're serious flaws if you take this stuff seriously, but history is written by the winners, so between Marty and AJ/Spanos we're getting the organization's winning spin. Can't believe I'm doing this again, but to set a few things in perspective. Polar Dude said:"Step 1: Broke off communications with the GM. (How would it go over at work if you refused to speak with your boss?)"

This is untrue. No one knew about the depths of the communication breakdown until AJ took cheapshots at Marty in the media and Marty responded by explaining AJ wouldn't see him face to face. He used a messenger. Marty was always willing to talk face to face with AJ and in those old comments suggested that he wanted to solve this particular issue. AJ never complied. Petulant little man that he is.

"Step 2: Refused a contract extension, making it difficult to attract quality coaches and staff."

Marty was offered a 1 year extension that read like an ultimatum. No coach goes 14-2, is an eyelash from a championship, has his players falling on their swords for him, and takes a one year extension. Ironically, accepting the offer would have made it more difficult to attract quality coaches because the offer made the situation very tenuous. The organization's spin was the opposite of reality.

"Step 3: After both of his coordinators were hired away to be HCs (both of whom were hired as Chargers at AJ's insistence), refused to talk to potential coordinators that his GM suggested."

Losing Cameron and Phillips was tough but there was nothing anyone in SD could do about it. To insinuate this was somehow Marty's fault is false. If you did that. Which I cannot tell. But some pro AJ types do so its bogus.

AJ suggested Ted Cottrell, who he knew from Buffalo, for the DC position. Marty didn't refuse to talk to him or any others. Marty is a social creature who likes talking football. He was willing. But he was far more interested in Vic Fangio of the Ravens. AJ was pissed at the suggestion and refused to let Fangio be interviewed, then made Marty look insubordinate over the issue. AJ loved Cottrell so rather than suggest him to Marty, he should have just insisted. Noteworthy in this is that Marty did have strong power to build his staff or AJ wouldn't have been making suggestions. He would have mistreated Marty like he did with personnel.

"Step 4: Persuaded other members of the coaching staff to look for similar jobs on other teams, also against the insistence of his GM."

"Persuaded" is the organization's spin again, and this is probably pretty close to the truth, but I have nothing but big respect for Marty here. These were his guys. He's a straight shooter. They knew the situation was a mess. They had feelers for promotions in other organizations. What should Marty have done? Tell them everything was fine? They all knew better. AJ had so mucked up this situation with his nonsense that the two coaches in question, Manusky and Chudzinsky, wouldn't have believed Marty if he tried to tell them things were stable. So Marty, true to his character, told his guys to take care of their families and advance their careers as best they could... always. He was sure he could find great replacements. That's a good man and a good boss and possibly a harmful employee. Can't be sure of that last one because he never got the chance to replace them. Though he did say us fans would be pleased with his new guys.

"Step 5: Tried to hire unqualified family members for vacant coaching positions despite being told not to by both his GM and owner."

No part of this little melodrama has been more blown out of proportion than Marty wanting to hire Kurt as special teams coach. Nepotism sure worked well for the team in the media. Kurt was qualified though and he has held the position for two other NFL franchises despite Marty and AJ. Besides, we're talking about a special teams coach here. Sure brass had said sorry no nepotism, and sure Marty was trying to show them the error of their ways and no doubt with a bit of spite, but the real anger was about Cottrell and Fangio. Make no mistake about that. AJ didn't like Marty and didn't want to embrace his family or his preferred DC likely because he knew Marty was on his way out sooner or sooner. But AJ let's his coach line up a special teams guy, maybe not a DC, but special teams is something he delegated to Norv later.

After hiring Norv he got his guy Cottrell to run the defense. He bombed because he wasn't qualified and in way over his head and Norv fired him abruptly while AJ refused to take calls. AJ likes not talking. Rivera took over and righted the ship until leaving for greener pastures and who comes back? Manusky. The guy AJ lamented Marty letting find work elsewhere. Well, Harbaugh sure didn't want that nut in his locker room and now Manusky's Chargers are playing just like his Niners did, not very good. Almost as bad as Cottrell. The best irony here? Vic Fangio, Marty's guy, got the gig with Harbaugh and has the Niners D playing nails. :mellow:

 
So if the entire thing is ties to a single playoff loss, as most of you are suggesting, why offer any sort of contract extension after the loss? Why not just get rid of him then instead of waiting a month when all of the good coaching prospects were hired away? If it was all fueled by AJ, why was he the one offering a contract extension while Dean Spanos is doing the firing? If Marty Schottenheimer is the end-all/be-all of coaching who can do no wrong, why has he not even been given a sniff of another head coaching gig in the last five years?

CC, you seem to be suggesting that you have some inside information that the rest of the world is unaware of. Would you care to divulge where you got it from?

 
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Yeah, the Chargers screwed up. Shotty's great successes in the NFL over the last five years makes that so very clear.
I don't think that's fair. Yes, his playoff record (5-13) is pitiful, but his lifetime winning percentage of .615 across 21 NFL seasons is pretty stellar. And I don't even like Schottenheimer (grew to really not like him during all of those Broncos/Chiefs battles in the 90s). Him not coaching since being fired in SD doesn't mean that he suddenly can't coach. I am not saying his ouster was completely uncalled for (I suspect the truth of what really happened is somewhere in the middle of what you posted and what Chaos posted), but they sure could have done a lot better than Norv Turner. Turner getting to the AFC title game in the first season after taking over a 14-2 is about as meaningful as Bill Callahan taking over Gruden's Raiders and getting to the Super Bowl with them. In both cases, the new coach got the team a round further than the old one had the previous year, but then both teams went downhill after that (Oakland plummeted the next year; the Chargers have had one legitimately good playoff team in the four year since, unless you consider an 8-8 team a real playoff team). Ultimately, despite their success at times, I always got the impression that the Chargers were always underachieving under Norv. Except when they played the Broncos most of the time. :rant:
 
Yeah, the Chargers screwed up. Shotty's great successes in the NFL over the last five years makes that so very clear.
I don't think that's fair. Yes, his playoff record (5-13) is pitiful, but his lifetime winning percentage of .615 across 21 NFL seasons is pretty stellar.
That'e the point. A coach of his quality coming off of a 14-2 season should have been gobbled up by the next team with a coaching vacancy. The reason this didn't happen isn't because of his playoff difficulties or his coaching ability. It's because no one wants to take the chance that Shotty will try to sabotage the team if he doesn't agree with management.
Ultimately, despite their success at times, I always got the impression that the Chargers were always underachieving under Norv.
I agree. Like I said, I thought he was the best possible coach to fill the gap at the time. I just never anticipated that they were planning to commit to him for five or more seasons.
 
Merry Christmas MoP! :football:

With yet another half-hearted effort yesterday the Chargers will almost certainly be firing Norv Turner after next week. The hot rumor is that Bill Cowher will be brought in. He seems very Marty Schottenheimer-like as a head coach and administrator. Does this mean A.J. Smith is also in trouble? Does Cowher to San Diego make sense?

 
Merry Christmas MoP! :football: With yet another half-hearted effort yesterday the Chargers will almost certainly be firing Norv Turner after next week. The hot rumor is that Bill Cowher will be brought in. He seems very Marty Schottenheimer-like as a head coach and administrator. Does this mean A.J. Smith is also in trouble? Does Cowher to San Diego make sense?
Merry Christmas TJI think San Diego should not hire a retread and Cowher's shine has worn off to me.
 
Merry Christmas MoP! :football: With yet another half-hearted effort yesterday the Chargers will almost certainly be firing Norv Turner after next week. The hot rumor is that Bill Cowher will be brought in. He seems very Marty Schottenheimer-like as a head coach and administrator. Does this mean A.J. Smith is also in trouble? Does Cowher to San Diego make sense?
I wouldn't think so. First off, I had heard that Cowher only wants a coaching job in the southeastern part of of the country, and there will be a couple open jobs available for him there. Second, if AJ stays, he probably won't agree to bringing in a guy who will want a lot of say in the personnel moves (which I assume Cowher will be in a position to demand). If AJ doesn't stay, I heard that Jeff Fisher would really like the job.
 
Yeah, the Chargers screwed up. Shotty's great successes in the NFL over the last five years makes that so very clear.
I don't think that's fair. Yes, his playoff record (5-13) is pitiful, but his lifetime winning percentage of .615 across 21 NFL seasons is pretty stellar.
That'e the point. A coach of his quality coming off of a 14-2 season should have been gobbled up by the next team with a coaching vacancy. The reason this didn't happen isn't because of his playoff difficulties or his coaching ability. It's because no one wants to take the chance that Shotty will try to sabotage the team if he doesn't agree with management.
Ultimately, despite their success at times, I always got the impression that the Chargers were always underachieving under Norv.
I agree. Like I said, I thought he was the best possible coach to fill the gap at the time. I just never anticipated that they were planning to commit to him for five or more seasons.
Actually if you cared to listen to Marty since then, he has little/no interest in coaching again. He is not a spring chicken, so him not wanting to coach again has little to do with a fear of him "sabotaging" the next team he gets on. In fact I believe he was the first candidate wanted for interviews a year later, but he politely told the NFL he was not interested in coaching any more. His reputation (forget the winning in the playoffs part) was thrown under the bus and stomped on by AJ and the Chargers. Since I don't believe you will find one of the previous places he coached in having this "front office" issues unless it could be related to Snyder in Washington and Snyder has had problems with every coach.
 
Actually if you cared to listen to Marty since then, he has little/no interest in coaching again. He is not a spring chicken, so him not wanting to coach again has little to do with a fear of him "sabotaging" the next team he gets on.
Are you sure about that?
 
Yeah, the Chargers screwed up. Shotty's great successes in the NFL over the last five years makes that so very clear.
I don't think that's fair. Yes, his playoff record (5-13) is pitiful, but his lifetime winning percentage of .615 across 21 NFL seasons is pretty stellar.
That'e the point. A coach of his quality coming off of a 14-2 season should have been gobbled up by the next team with a coaching vacancy. The reason this didn't happen isn't because of his playoff difficulties or his coaching ability. It's because no one wants to take the chance that Shotty will try to sabotage the team if he doesn't agree with management.
Ultimately, despite their success at times, I always got the impression that the Chargers were always underachieving under Norv.
I agree. Like I said, I thought he was the best possible coach to fill the gap at the time. I just never anticipated that they were planning to commit to him for five or more seasons.
Actually if you cared to listen to Marty since then, he has little/no interest in coaching again. He is not a spring chicken, so him not wanting to coach again has little to do with a fear of him "sabotaging" the next team he gets on. In fact I believe he was the first candidate wanted for interviews a year later, but he politely told the NFL he was not interested in coaching any more. His reputation (forget the winning in the playoffs part) was thrown under the bus and stomped on by AJ and the Chargers. Since I don't believe you will find one of the previous places he coached in having this "front office" issues unless it could be related to Snyder in Washington and Snyder has had problems with every coach.
So Marty didn't want to coach again in the NFL but did want to coach in the UFL? :bs:
 
Merry Christmas MoP! :football: With yet another half-hearted effort yesterday the Chargers will almost certainly be firing Norv Turner after next week. The hot rumor is that Bill Cowher will be brought in. He seems very Marty Schottenheimer-like as a head coach and administrator. Does this mean A.J. Smith is also in trouble? Does Cowher to San Diego make sense?
Merry Christmas TJI think San Diego should not hire a retread and Cowher's shine has worn off to me.
cowher woudlnt work for the Charges Im betting anyway, he credits Marty with alot for his career. $$ talks but Im thinking Cowhers done
 
I was curious if we might see any trends in hiring since the Spanoses bought the team:

1986 - team offensive coordinator Al Saunders promoted to HC; went 17-22 over 2 1/2 seasons (seemed worse than that)

1989 - hired former Falcons' HC (and Lions' OC) Dan Henning; went 16-32 over 3 seasons

1992 - hired defensive-minded college coach Bobby Ross; went 47-33 and had a trip to the SB over five seasons

1997 - hired Oilers and Jags OC Kevin Gilbride; went 6-16 over a season and a half

1998 - hired former Falcons HC and OC June Jones; went 3-7 in a mop-up season

1999 - hired offensive-minded college coach Mike Riley; went 14-34 over three seasons

2002 - hired former HC and DC Marty Schottenheimer; 47-33 over five seasons

2007 - hired former HC and OC Norv Turner; currently 48-30

HC retreads (4) 114-102; college coaches (2) 61-67; coordinators (2) 23-38

Offensive-minded (6) 104-141; defensive-minded (2) 94-66

Guys who backed up Dan Fouts at QB while in college (2) 51-37

 
I think at this point it's safe to say the Chargers problems start and stop with the Spanos family.

 
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Marty Schottenheimer is 68 years old and hasn’t coached in the NFL since the Chargers fired him following the 2006 season, but that doesn’t mean he’s done.ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reports that Schottenheimer will interview with the Buccaneers for their head-coaching vacancy on Tuesday.
Oh man. Please, please, please let this happen.Note: The Buccaneers host the Chargers next season! :football:
 
Marty Schottenheimer is 68 years old and hasn’t coached in the NFL since the Chargers fired him following the 2006 season, but that doesn’t mean he’s done.ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reports that Schottenheimer will interview with the Buccaneers for their head-coaching vacancy on Tuesday.
Oh man. Please, please, please let this happen.Note: The Buccaneers host the Chargers next season! :football:
"Bucs want Schotty because you have to make it to the playoffs before you can lose in them"
 
Marty Schottenheimer is 68 years old and hasn’t coached in the NFL since the Chargers fired him following the 2006 season, but that doesn’t mean he’s done.ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reports that Schottenheimer will interview with the Buccaneers for their head-coaching vacancy on Tuesday.
Oh man. Please, please, please let this happen.Note: The Buccaneers host the Chargers next season! :football:
If he's got anything left in the tank it'd be a good move for the Bucs. Shotty has proven he's great at taking rebuild projects and making winners out of them.
 
'Gr00vus said:
If he's got anything left in the tank it'd be a good move for the Bucs. Shotty has proven he's great at taking rebuild projects and making winners out of them.
Agreed. The Bucs need some stability in the coaching staff moving forward. Scottenheimer would be a great hire to get the team pointed back in the right direction.
'pantherclub said:
Tell me again why the Bucs fired Gruden?
Gruden the head coach was fine. Too bad Gruden the talent evaluator wasn't so great. The same issue effected another candidate for the Bucs job: former Packers head coach/GM Mike Sherman (last at Texas A&M).
 
I was curious if we might see any trends in hiring since the Spanoses bought the team:

1986 - team offensive coordinator Al Saunders promoted to HC; went 17-22 over 2 1/2 seasons (seemed worse than that)

1989 - hired former Falcons' HC (and Lions' OC) Dan Henning; went 16-32 over 3 seasons

1992 - hired defensive-minded college coach Bobby Ross; went 47-33 and had a trip to the SB over five seasons

1997 - hired Oilers and Jags OC Kevin Gilbride; went 6-16 over a season and a half

1998 - hired former Falcons HC and OC June Jones; went 3-7 in a mop-up season

1999 - hired offensive-minded college coach Mike Riley; went 14-34 over three seasons

2002 - hired former HC and DC Marty Schottenheimer; 47-33 over five seasons

2007 - hired former HC and OC Norv Turner; currently 48-30

HC retreads (4) 114-102; college coaches (2) 61-67; coordinators (2) 23-38

Offensive-minded (6) 104-141; defensive-minded (2) 94-66

Guys who backed up Dan Fouts at QB while in college (2) 51-37
Nobody thought this was an interesting fact?
 
Here's a novel idea Norv. Your up 24 points at the half. Maybe run the football some more with your first round RB and keep the ball out of Peyton Manning's hands. What a pathetic performance.

 
Ahead at home by 24 points at half...and the Chargers lose.Another Norv Turner classic. :thumbup:
I love this thread
It's the gift that just keeps on giving.Apparently Norv was asked post game about his job status. :popcorn: Per PFT...
It seems like Chargers coach Norv Turner has been on the hot seat as long as he’s had a seat.But the temperature may have never been hotter than it is right now.The Chargers are 3-3, but have lost their last two in embarassing fashion, giving up 17 unanswered to allow the then-winless Saints to comeback, and last night allowing 35 unanswered to the Broncos in a frankly ridiculous loss.With the bye week coming up, Turner was asked post-game if he thought this might be the end.“I’m not going to comment on that,” Turner said, via Nick Canepa of U-T San Diego, who noted it was probably the first time Turner was asked that question after a game.He doesn’t have to, does he? This one feels as eventual as can be. After years of teasing with talent, the Chargers haven’t taken the next step.And now, it looks like they’ve taken a major step backward, leaving them shell-shocked in the wake of a ridiculous loss.“We thought we were better than this,” cornerback Quentin Jammer said. “You have a 24-point lead …”That’s a sentence that doesn’t need finishing by anyone other than a Spanos.
Get your Jon Gruden megacontract rumors ready!
 
The Chargers problems are fixable. Clearly they need a better QB, someone like Brees would be perfect. Also, a dynamic third down back like Sproles would be a great balance to Mathews. Maybe a big WR that is more physical and polished than Meachem, like maybe V-Jax.

:popcorn:

 
The Chargers problems are fixable. Clearly they need a better QB, someone like Brees would be perfect. Also, a dynamic third down back like Sproles would be a great balance to Mathews. Maybe a big WR that is more physical and polished than Meachem, like maybe V-Jax. :popcorn:
Don't forget a shut down corner...someone like, say, Cromartie?
 
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Fire AJ Smith first, before anything else do this first. Chargers will become instantly better
I agree.while he may be a good talent evaluator, he meddles in the day to day affairs of the team too much. He's a jerk to deal with. Frequently drives players out and makes them not want to play in San Diego.(ie. VJAX)If he was halfway decent to deal with, the whole VJAX situation could have been avoided.you have to wonder what kind of GM fires a coach after a 14-2 season.
 

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