Mayock and Crabtree (1 Viewer)

[m_moose]

Mayock has dropped Crabtree out of his top 10 and alluded to off-field issues as his reason. I don't really care where Mayock places him on his draft board, but this is the first I've heard of off-field issues regarding Crabtree.

Does anyone know what those issues might be?

 

[foxco]

Haven't heard much either, though I do think his back and forth on his surgery and not being able to do the combine/workout at all could effect him a little.

 

[Jason Wood]

I thought the same thing. When asked about Crabtree not being in his top 10 last night, Mayock said a) he does think Crabtree is the top WR in the draft but b) Al Davis will take Maclin first b/c of the speed and measurable and c) Crabtree's injuries and 'off field questions' would hamper him more than people realize. I too was surprised by the off-the-field comments, as I didn't think the kid has any blemishes on his reputation.

 

[Couch Potato]

Interesting. Here Mayock says: "He's GOT to be a top 10 pick."

From the horse's mouth, though it was from some time soon after the Combine.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80f0893b

 

[Couch Potato]

Found this on a Raiders MB. Take it FWIW, but this guy is also trying to come up with answers to the same question:

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/draft-room...eld-issues.html

in regard to Mayock's comments regarding Crabtree and off the field issues.

First off, don't kill the messenger.

This is purely based upon anecdotal comments found after scanning around 300 sites that make reference to Crabtree.

And some of it (if true - you can judge for yourself) does have you question the wisdom of paying around $35m over 5 years on a player whom you have not seen work out, so have no idea how fast he really is!

First we have the fact that he seems to have come across as a little immature during the combine interview process.

We can add that some people were surprised that his 2 Player promo videos showed him firstly talking to Deion Sanders and Jerry Rice, then secondly eating, playing pool and chilling. As these promos usually attempt to show how dedicated a player is to the weight-room, or discussing football in a more technical sense, eyebrows were raised.

Secondly, we have his entourage, that seems to have increased since he decided to make himself eligible for the draft. A few of these people have questionable reputations, like his college room-mate who is an alleged drug-dealer on campus. That raises flags to many people.

Thirdly, we have his association with Pacman Jones, a person who he appears to have become closer to recently. We all know about Pacman's background. Then there is the fact that his main source of NFL advice is Michael Irvin, another person with a questionable (to say the least) off the field attitude. Some people feel this was why he decided to cut the promo with Rice, having been advised to deflect attention from his other associations.

Lastly, and this is the hardest to judge efficiently is regarding his willingness to run at the pro-day, then his apparent about-turn. A lot of people think that his initial decision to run was against the requests of his Agent and at the behest of his father, who thought that not running would lose him a lot of money on draft day. Now, it is hard to make a completely honest judgement about what anyone here would do in a similar situation. Family is family and the majority of us respect and would do what our parents suggest is the right thing to do. Where it becomes an issue is that some people think that the decision to turn professional as a red-shirt sophomore was also heavily influenced by his father. And thus we get to the real crux of this element of his character - does he take advice from the right people?

Like I say, much of this is anecdotal.

I've looked at hundreds of sites, many based on hearsay.

Take it for what you will.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Mayock is often confused.

 

[Jail]

Just to be clear: Mayock was talking about his mock draft...he was not talking about how he has him on his own board.

He made it clear that he is just trying to put himself in the place of each franchise when doing his mock...not taking into account his own rankings. Mayock does have Crabtree as the top WR on his board.

 

[Cookiemonster]

The whole thing about the Raiders preferring Maclin is absurd IMO. Al Davis covets world-class speed. Maclin is far from world-class. DHB comes close, and if you wanted to make an argument for him, I'd listen but I think that would have to involve a trade down. If the Raiders don't want Crab, I think it's because of Andre Smith and if you want to bust Crab's balls about character than you have to laugh at that idea. Davis won't be passing on the best WR in this class for a fast guy if he's not REALLY fast. They already have 3 guys that run low 4.3s. What they don't have is somebody who can get open and catch the ball.

 

[Skanker]

 

[Yenrub]

The whole thing about the Raiders preferring Maclin is absurd IMO. Al Davis covets world-class speed. Maclin is far from world-class. DHB comes close, and if you wanted to make an argument for him, I'd listen but I think that would have to involve a trade down. If the Raiders don't want Crab, I think it's because of Andre Smith and if you want to bust Crab's balls about character than you have to laugh at that idea. Davis won't be passing on the best WR in this class for a fast guy if he's not REALLY fast. They already have 3 guys that run low 4.3s. What they don't have is somebody who can get open and catch the ball.

Actually I thought Mayock had the Raiders taking DHB because of his speed size ratio

 

[Dr. Evil]

The whole thing about the Raiders preferring Maclin is absurd IMO. Al Davis covets world-class speed. Maclin is far from world-class. DHB comes close, and if you wanted to make an argument for him, I'd listen but I think that would have to involve a trade down. If the Raiders don't want Crab, I think it's because of Andre Smith and if you want to bust Crab's balls about character than you have to laugh at that idea. Davis won't be passing on the best WR in this class for a fast guy if he's not REALLY fast. They already have 3 guys that run low 4.3s. What they don't have is somebody who can get open and catch the ball.

 

[Cookiemonster]

The whole thing about the Raiders preferring Maclin is absurd IMO. Al Davis covets world-class speed. Maclin is far from world-class. DHB comes close, and if you wanted to make an argument for him, I'd listen but I think that would have to involve a trade down. If the Raiders don't want Crab, I think it's because of Andre Smith and if you want to bust Crab's balls about character than you have to laugh at that idea. Davis won't be passing on the best WR in this class for a fast guy if he's not REALLY fast. They already have 3 guys that run low 4.3s. What they don't have is somebody who can get open and catch the ball.

Actually I thought Mayock had the Raiders taking DHB because of his speed size ratio

If somebody like the Eagles want to move up to get Andre Smith, or somebody they covet in the top 10, I think Al would jump at the chance to move down and get DHB later, just not at #7. I love DHB personally, as he reminds me of T.O. minus the hostile RAC and mental/personality issues.

 

[Ernol]

The whole thing about the Raiders preferring Maclin is absurd IMO. Al Davis covets world-class speed. Maclin is far from world-class. DHB comes close, and if you wanted to make an argument for him, I'd listen but I think that would have to involve a trade down. If the Raiders don't want Crab, I think it's because of Andre Smith and if you want to bust Crab's balls about character than you have to laugh at that idea. Davis won't be passing on the best WR in this class for a fast guy if he's not REALLY fast. They already have 3 guys that run low 4.3s. What they don't have is somebody who can get open and catch the ball.

Actually I thought Mayock had the Raiders taking DHB because of his speed size ratio

At least on last night's show, he had Raiders taking DHB and Jacksonville taking Maclin.

 

[Yenrub]

The whole thing about the Raiders preferring Maclin is absurd IMO. Al Davis covets world-class speed. Maclin is far from world-class. DHB comes close, and if you wanted to make an argument for him, I'd listen but I think that would have to involve a trade down. If the Raiders don't want Crab, I think it's because of Andre Smith and if you want to bust Crab's balls about character than you have to laugh at that idea. Davis won't be passing on the best WR in this class for a fast guy if he's not REALLY fast. They already have 3 guys that run low 4.3s. What they don't have is somebody who can get open and catch the ball.

Actually I thought Mayock had the Raiders taking DHB because of his speed size ratio

At least on last night's show, he had Raiders taking DHB and Jacksonville taking Maclin.

The video of his top 10 is on the front page of NFL.com1. DET - Stafford

2. STL - J. Smith

3. KC - Monroe

4. SEA - Curry

5. CLE - Raji

6. CIN - A. Smith

7. OAK - DHB

8. JAX - Maclin

9. GB - Oher

10. SF - Sanchez

 

[Bob Magaw]

it is important to understand that mayock seems to be really wired into the league (what other high profile draft wonk came even close to mayock in predicting how the '08 top 10 would unfold... some of this admittedly was while it was going on)...

so he is not just an astute judge of talent (he conceded crabtree is the top WR prospect on that score), but has cultivated some excellent, well placed sources...

if there is smoke, there may be fire... NFL teams presumably have access to more information than may be discussed in the press... how far back do they go (PI interrogations of kindergarten teacher?)...

i'm pretty sure i am in the minority, but i wouldn't be stunned if maclin went before crabtree (if not necessarily to OAK )... if i were betting, i do think it is greater than 50% chance crabtree goes first (unless the reports alluded to by mayock are worse than we know now), & not going out on a limb there, but imo there is a bigger chance that maclin goes first than some are reckoning...

 

[trader jake]

Darren McFadden's off the field "issues" didn't keep the Raiders from drafting him.

If Al Davis covets Crabtree at #7 he must be laughing his ### off right now.

 

[jurb26]

Darren McFadden's off the field "issues" didn't keep the Raiders from drafting him.If Al Davis covets Crabtree at #7 he must be laughing his ### off right now.

Did anyone here actually watch the video? Mayock had Oak passing on Crabtree for DHB sighting that Oak would prefer DHB's size and speed. He then had Jack passing on Crabtee for Maclin sighting the off-field issues and the new staff at Jack would find this to be a breaking point between the 2 players. DHB has been underrated here for months.

 

[millertyme1]

DHB has been underrated here for months.

OAKLAND is just dumb enough to take him there. I really can't believe these teams STILL fall for these WR workout warriors. Soon enough they'll realize that catching the ball consistently is part of the job description too.

 

[jurb26]

DHB has been underrated here for months.

OAKLAND is just dumb enough to take him there. I really can't believe these teams STILL fall for these WR workout warriors. Soon enough they'll realize that catching the ball consistently is part of the job description too.

We'll see, but DHB's draft value as a prospect is much higher than anyone around here seems to think. No WR was hindered more by the team in which he played.

 

[millertyme1]

DHB has been underrated here for months.

OAKLAND is just dumb enough to take him there. I really can't believe these teams STILL fall for these WR workout warriors. Soon enough they'll realize that catching the ball consistently is part of the job description too.

We'll see, but DHB's draft value as a prospect is much higher than anyone around here seems to think. No WR was hindered more by the team in which he played.

I'm ecstatic my Bears dealt their pick as he was on their radar. I wouldn't touch him period personally. I'd rather take a shot on a far more polished guy in Round 2 in Robiskie.

 

[Cookiemonster]

Bey has tons of ability, and his hands are not bad. They're just not good and I agree that he's vastly underrated on this board. I still like Harvin better, but that's not an indictment of Bey's potential. Most say Chris Chambers, but I see more T.O. than anybody when I watch his film. The build-up speed, the acrobatic ability and body control along with the size and so-so hands catching are all very Owens like. If Bey were a little more aggressive after the catch and had personality disorders, I'd wonder if he were a Terrell relative. All said, his lack of sample size due to the piss-poor offense he had to work in leaves something to be desired in a top 10 talent. I think he goes top 20, but I'd be surprised if he went in the top 10.

 

[MAC_32]

DHB has been underrated here for months.

OAKLAND is just dumb enough to take him there. I really can't believe these teams STILL fall for these WR workout warriors. Soon enough they'll realize that catching the ball consistently is part of the job description too.

We'll see, but DHB's draft value as a prospect is much higher than anyone around here seems to think.

Not me, I've felt since fall that DHB is a guy that's being looked at as a second rounder with upside right now (might be worth the risk) but after he blows away at the combine he'll (incorrectly) fly up draft boards.

 

[jurb26]

DHB has been underrated here for months.

OAKLAND is just dumb enough to take him there. I really can't believe these teams STILL fall for these WR workout warriors. Soon enough they'll realize that catching the ball consistently is part of the job description too.

We'll see, but DHB's draft value as a prospect is much higher than anyone around here seems to think.

Not me, I've felt since fall that DHB is a guy that's being looked at as a second rounder with upside right now (might be worth the risk) but after he blows away at the combine he'll (incorrectly) fly up draft boards.

Bey has been a 1st round talent all the while. That's the point...

 

[MAC_32]

DHB has been underrated here for months.

OAKLAND is just dumb enough to take him there. I really can't believe these teams STILL fall for these WR workout warriors. Soon enough they'll realize that catching the ball consistently is part of the job description too.

We'll see, but DHB's draft value as a prospect is much higher than anyone around here seems to think.

Not me, I've felt since fall that DHB is a guy that's being looked at as a second rounder with upside right now (might be worth the risk) but after he blows away at the combine he'll (incorrectly) fly up draft boards.

Bey has been a 1st round talent all the while. That's the point...

To people infatuated with his measurables? Probably.To people that watched him play in college? I strongly disagree. There are good reasons that there isn't much good tape on him...and his lack of supporting cast is far from the only one.

 

[Matt Waldman]

I could see why Al Davis might like Maclin - his physical measurements and skill sets remind me a bit of a raw Tim Brown.

Personally, I'd rather have Crabtree, who outside of these anecdotal references, is known as a hard worker who learned the game taking notes on players like Irvin, Rice, and Fitzgerald and crafting his game off them.

If Crabtree drops, these teams who picked Heyward-Bey, Maclin, or whomever else better hope these guys can learn to run decent routes and have that killer instinct to catch the football at any cost. I like Maclin and Hewyard-Bey but they don't have these skills. They might learn the first one, but few receivers really have that second quality. Crabtree does.

 

[jurb26]

To people infatuated with his measurables? Probably.To people that watched him play in college? I strongly disagree. There are good reasons that there isn't much good tape on him...and his lack of supporting cast is far from the only one.

You're free to disagree all you want. However, if he gets drafted in the 1st round in a few weeks here I'd be rather confident in saying that team watched him play in college.

 

[bcr8f]

Mayock has dropped Crabtree out of his top 10 and alluded to off-field issues as his reason. I don't really care where Mayock places him on his draft board, but this is the first I've heard of off-field issues regarding Crabtree.Does anyone know what those issues might be?

I haven't heard that. In not going to the Raiders he said Al Davis would pick Bey because he's big and fast but also said Crabtree was the best player.

 

[MAC_32]

To people infatuated with his measurables? Probably.To people that watched him play in college? I strongly disagree. There are good reasons that there isn't much good tape on him...and his lack of supporting cast is far from the only one.

You're free to disagree all you want. However, if he gets drafted in the 1st round in a few weeks here I'd be rather confident in saying that team watched him play in college.

What's your point?

 

[Tigerbot Hesh]

I've heard that Crabtree already has a sizeable entourage that follows him around, and that always worried me about players. Is anyone else worried about a protracted holdout, a la Derrick Harvey?

 

[jurb26]

To people infatuated with his measurables? Probably.

To people that watched him play in college? I strongly disagree. There are good reasons that there isn't much good tape on him...and his lack of supporting cast is far from the only one.

You're free to disagree all you want. However, if he gets drafted in the 1st round in a few weeks here I'd be rather confident in saying that team watched him play in college.

What's your point?

The point is that you are insinuating that all the people who watched him play in college will disagree that he is a 1st round talent. I'm simply pointing out the fact that if he does in fact get drafted that high the team doing most certainly did watch him in college. A LOT of him as a matter of fact. Thus making your point invalid. Not everyone shares your opinion of DHB. I sure don't. I'm rather confident that at least some NFL teams don't either. We'll see in a few weeks.

 

[bcr8f]

Mayock didn't drop him out of his top 10 in talent. He dropped him out when considering who teams would want not who he would want.

 

[massraider]

Mayock didn't drop him out of his top 10 in talent. He dropped him out when considering who teams would want not who he would want.

There's only two spots that seem "likely" to take Crabs, and Mayock can see both of them going elsewhere.I pray he's wrong about the Raiders.

 

[Jason Wood]

I'm not taking issue with Mayock's decision to drop Crabtree out of the Top 10, he's calling it like he sees it. I'm questioning his commentary that Crabtree has "off the field" issues as part of his rationale. What off-the-field issues? Are there any? Rumors? Just seemed like a comment that doesn't fit the player's rep.

 

[One]

Didn't Mayock also have the Raiders drafting Vernon Gholston because of McFadden's 'off the field' problems and Gholston's measurables?

He may have contacts with a lot of NFL teams, but I doubt Oakland is one of them. They're usually the hardest team to predict.

Regardless, I understand the rational of taking DHB over Maclin, but not over Crabtree. IMO he's in a class of his own.

 

[MAC_32]

To people infatuated with his measurables? Probably.

To people that watched him play in college? I strongly disagree. There are good reasons that there isn't much good tape on him...and his lack of supporting cast is far from the only one.

You're free to disagree all you want. However, if he gets drafted in the 1st round in a few weeks here I'd be rather confident in saying that team watched him play in college.

What's your point?

The point is that you are insinuating that all the people who watched him play in college will disagree that he is a 1st round talent. I'm simply pointing out the fact that if he does in fact get drafted that high the team doing most certainly did watch him in college. A LOT of him as a matter of fact. Thus making your point invalid. Not everyone shares your opinion of DHB. I sure don't. I'm rather confident that at least some NFL teams don't either. We'll see in a few weeks.

I never meant to insinuate they didn't watch him in college, I meant to insinuate they put more stock in measurables than I do. As a general rule measurables + college success = early round pick, if a player lacks one or the other I think taking them in round 1 is usually not a good idea and round 2 is still a bit dangerous. This is the furthest thing from a be-all end-all, every situation is different, it's just a baseline. It seems like most NFL teams don't draft guys early that lack measurables but get sucked into the measurables trap every year. I said several months ago his stock would fly up like it did for this very reason, how that statement turned into this I'm not sure.

 

[HeirCoryell]

Much like the Raiders, it seems I am a sucker for the speed guys every year and always want the teams I follow to grab them a little earlier than they probably should. No problem if they turn out like Chris Johnson last year but, I was all over Troy Williamson a few years ago and we saw how that panned out. I see an awful lot of similarities between Williamson and DHB. Blazing speed, their college offenses held them back, and not the greatest hands in the world. Maybe I'm wrong but, once bitten twice shy.

 

[jurb26]

Much like the Raiders, it seems I am a sucker for the speed guys every year and always want the teams I follow to grab them a little earlier than they probably should. No problem if they turn out like Chris Johnson last year but, I was all over Troy Williamson a few years ago and we saw how that panned out. I see an awful lot of similarities between Williamson and DHB. Blazing speed, their college offenses held them back, and not the greatest hands in the world. Maybe I'm wrong but, once bitten twice shy.

DHB has much better hands than Williamson. The man problem with Williamson though was that he developed his sever inability to catch the ball in the NFL. He actually didn't do that poorly while at S. Carolina. Not sure what to make of that.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

Mayock didn't drop him out of his top 10 in talent. He dropped him out when considering who teams would want not who he would want.

There's only two spots that seem "likely" to take Crabs, and Mayock can see both of them going elsewhere.

I pray he's wrong about the Raiders.

If I was a Raiders fan I would pray like hell they pass on Crabtree. That's all they need is another bust to set them back even further.

 

[sem_envy]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+W...udibles2402.htm

Crabtree has big adjustment to make in NFL

April 6, 2009

The following quotes are from NFL scouts, coaches and front-office personnel, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

Texas Tech WR Michael Crabtree

Texas Tech WR Michael Crabtree

“If (WR) Michael Crabtree was available to us late in the first round, I’d pass on him. I’m not saying that he won’t be good, but I’m not sold on his work ethic, and coming from the offense he did, he’s going to have to work at it to make the adjustment.”

 

[Jail]

Didn't Mayock also have the Raiders drafting Vernon Gholston because of McFadden's 'off the field' problems and Gholston's measurables?He may have contacts with a lot of NFL teams, but I doubt Oakland is one of them. They're usually the hardest team to predict.Regardless, I understand the rational of taking DHB over Maclin, but not over Crabtree. IMO he's in a class of his own.

This is true. Although Mike Lombardi who is often on Mayocks show knows a thing or two about how Al Davis works, and he says that Davis values the 40 time more then anyone else he's ever worked with. He said that he would be very surprised if Davis takes a player without being able to know what his timed 40 is.ETA: I don't think Mayock said Oakland would pass on Crabtree for personnel issues, I think he said that for Jax. I think he gave Oakland DHB because of the 40 time (and lack of one from Crabtree)

 

[massraider]

Mayock didn't drop him out of his top 10 in talent. He dropped him out when considering who teams would want not who he would want.

There's only two spots that seem "likely" to take Crabs, and Mayock can see both of them going elsewhere.

I pray he's wrong about the Raiders.

If I was a Raiders fan I would pray like hell they pass on Crabtree. That's all they need is another bust to set them back even further.

That's true. I didn't get the news that Crabtree was a bust.

 

[noneother]

Didn't Mayock also have the Raiders drafting Vernon Gholston because of McFadden's 'off the field' problems and Gholston's measurables?

He may have contacts with a lot of NFL teams, but I doubt Oakland is one of them. They're usually the hardest team to predict.

Regardless, I understand the rational of taking DHB over Maclin, but not over Crabtree. IMO he's in a class of his own.

This is true. Although Mike Lombardi who is often on Mayocks show knows a thing or two about how Al Davis works, and he says that Davis values the 40 time more then anyone else he's ever worked with. He said that he would be very surprised if Davis takes a player without being able to know what his timed 40 is.ETA: I don't think Mayock said Oakland would pass on Crabtree for personnel issues, I think he said that for Jax. I think he gave Oakland DHB because of the 40 time (and lack of one from Crabtree)

that is AWESOME..... what's wrong with crabtree, Clean drug screening? hasn't been involved in a shooting in the last 90 days? hasn't ran his mouth off about he should be the highest comped WR in the league??

 

[JamesTheScot]

I've heard that Crabtree already has a sizeable entourage that follows him around, and that always worried me about players. Is anyone else worried about a protracted holdout, a la Derrick Harvey?

On of the things said about him in the Pro Football Weekly Draft Guide is that he's immature, he's a prima donna and expects to be treated as such. Nothing too specific there, but there's obviously something that's turning people off. He's too young and unproven to be such a diva if the rumor mill is accurate.Of course these mags are of questionable value so take it all with a grain of salt.