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Wow, just go to an extreme. Why don't you do this: Go to any year of the top 10 QB's. Pick out the ones with the lowest comp. pct. Then go to yards per attempt.Chances are a black QB will throw shorter (put RB and TE in Pro Bowl while WR's suffer) and complete less (while throwing shorter makes this a huge difference). Most people can't talk about it without going racist. But have no problem talking about a white RB. Facts. Just facts.
Very good posting.Apparently you can't say that black QBs throw shorter and run better than white QBs without being accused of being racist. It's a simple FACT. You want me to back it up with data then fund me a couple million dollars to get a study going where I can bring in college and NFL black and white QBs and compare their throwing abilities. Because going over the course of years and years is just plain stupid. Years ago the game was completely different. This same guy should answer the question as to why it is extremely rare to see a white NFL RB or WR succeed in the NFL... oh could it be that blacks are more athletic overall?
Bottom line, McNabb will never make it to the Hall of Fame. Ever
I was not directly comparing them. I was demonstrating that being in the top 10 in passing yards and TD passes doesn't automatically make you a Hall of Famer, like you earlier implied. Did you know that Donovan McNabb, despite playing in a pass happy offense, has only finished in the top 10 in touchdown passes three times in his NFL career?
Hey Dave Chappell... they call it stereotypes for a reason, because the majority is factual based. Doesn't mean it's true for everybody, but it's just true for the majority.
Excellent post. Very good. Looking at career stats gets you no where. You can't just blindly look at career stats and say, oh he's top 10 all time he must be in the hall of fame. Bottom line is he's never been a top QB in the NFL. He's a very good QB, but not deserving of the HOF
McNabb has twice finished in the top four in yards per attempt. In 2006 he led the league in yards per completion. When he had TO he also finished in the top 10 in completion percentage. Culpepper finished in the top 5 in completion percentage 5 times, and top 3 in yards/attempt 3 times. Warren Moon finished in the top 10 in completion percentage 7 times, top 5 three times, top 10 in yards/attempt 8 times. McNair finished in the top 10 in completion percentage 4 times, and the top 2 in yards/attempt twice (leading the NFL in 2003). Not only do these four completely contradict your hypothesis, they are all completely different QBs in terms of style, strengths, and weaknesses. The only similarities they have is that they've been successful, and they are black. Does that prove that all black QBs are successful?Michael Vick and Jamarcus Russell are completely different QBs. You would suggest that Vick's history has a direct bearing on Russell's prospects, simply because Russell is black. That's not only insulting and bigoted--it's stupid.
Wow. Somebody does get it. Numbers and stats have their place, but they are far from the end all, be all of what makes a player worthy of the Hall.
Just goes to show you can't look only at stats and who led what years in what stats. McNabb has never been the best player at his position. Honestly, Warren Moon was probably inducted into the HOF because he was the most successful black QB of his time. I think if he was white no way he gets into the HOF. Kind of funny though, you take 4 of the most successful black QBs and say they are all completely different QBs in terms of style, strengths, and weaknesses... and then you say how they all did well and that they are black and that should be enough to prove that all black QBs are successful (by the way, if I poll 4 white people and find that they all have the flu, can I make the conclusion that all white people have the flu?). How about you take every black QB who has ever taken a snap in the NFL and you average their stats and find an average yards per season, TD:INT ratio, QB rating, wins (regular season, playoffs, superbowl) and then you get back to us. Because I can parade around here all I want with the stats of the 4 most successful white QBs, but that doesn't prove any point at all. Sure, McNair, Moon, Cunningham, McNabb were all somewhat successful... but compare them to the greatest white QBs and they don't stand a chance.
very
For starters, I'm not saying McNabb should be in the Hall of Fame--I don't think he should be given his career so far, and I don't think it's close.But it's insulting and ignorant to say that Moon was inducted because he was black. There are numerous white QBs in the Hall who Moon completely outplayed. (Some examples: Fran Tarkenton, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach. Moon is #4 in passing yardage despite not playing in the NFL until age 28! Your bigotry is showing.
You misunderstand me (perhaps because you have no understanding of critical thinking). I was pointing out that a collection of anecdotes proves nothing. All you have is a collection of anecdotes which reinforce your own obvious bias.
Maybe the reason is that certain people have a prejudice against blacks playing QB (as is obvious from this discussion), and therefore blacks are more likely to be asked to play other positions, and whites are more likely to asked to play QB. Unlike your own unfounded assertions, that phenomenon has a known and recorded history.
I agree he's not a Hall of Famer based on his accomplishments to date. However, being the third best QB of a decade historically has been more than sufficient to make somebody a Hall of Famer.1950's: Graham, Tittle, Layne, Van Brocklin1960's: Starr, Unitas, Jurgensen, Dawson, Namath1970's: Staubach, Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Griese1980's: Montana, Marino, Elway, Fouts, Kelly1990's: Young, Favre, Aikman, MoonOf course many of these guys' careers overlapped two (or three) different decades making the groupings a judgment call.
I think this is the problem. Define "top QB." He has never been 1st or 2nd team All Pro in his career. Here is the list of QBs who have been AP 1st or 2nd team All Pro during that span:Manning - 3 1st team (2003-2005), 3 2nd team (1999, 2000, 2006)Warner - 2 1st team (1999, 2001)Favre - 3 2nd team (2001, 2002, 2007)Gannon - 2 1st team (2000, 2002)Brady - 1 1st team (2007), 1 2nd team (2005)Brees - 1 1st team (2006)McNair - 1 2nt team (2003)Interestingly enough, the AP chose no second team QB in 2004.So 7 QBs were chosen over the span of McNabb's first 9 seasons. And my guess at this point this season is that Warner and Brees will be 1st and 2nd team this year.McNabb not being on this list even once does not fit with my definition of top QB for 10 years.
But has McNabb really been the third best? I think it's pretty clear that Manning, Brady, and Favre have all been better. McNabb has probably been 4th best statistically, but I wonder if that will hold up through the end of next season.... for example, Brees could very well surpass him. And that is just the numbers... not accounting for awards/honors or postseason success.
You've made a number of excellent points in your series of posts that I completely agree with. My only (minor) quibble with this one is something unrelated to McNabb: your assertion that Moon outplayed Staubach, etc. On a superficial level Moon's stats might look better but that is solely a function of time and place and the different way the game was played in Staubach's era. Having seen both play I'm 100% convinced Staubach was by far the better quarterback. That being said, someone else wrote earlier that if Moon was white he would not have made the Hall of Fame. One could also argue that if he'd been white that he wouldn't have had to wait until he was 28 for a shot and consequently he would have owned every important career passing mark making him a no questions asked Hall of Famer.
:(That comment about Moon having made the HOF only because he was black was ridiculous.
I don't think it makes you an automatic HOFer, but his body of work is more solid than Vinny's.Troy Aikman was another QB who didn't throw many TDs - only had 20+ in one year. He also threw way more INTs than McNabb ever did. McNabb's best season with T.O. was better than any season Aikman had. And Aikman had a HOF RB and WR for the majority of his career - which really helped him in having the opportunity to win Super Bowls.
Well, obviously, but that still doesn't refute my point that being in the categories you mentioned doesn't automatically make you a HoFer, like you implied earlier.nflslant08 said:
I agree with all of that, but Aikman was a very important ingredient to a team that won three Super Bowls in four years. That kind of thing will almost always supersede statistics. And while I think he was a bit overrated, it isn't like Aikman was some chump QB who was lucky enough to quarterback a stacked Super Bowl team. Take a gander at how great he played in all of their playoff wins during those Super Bowl runs (18 TDs and 4 INTs in the nine games during those three SB runs).nflslant08 said:
I didn't, but thanks for pointing out that fairly meaningless bit of information.nflslant08 said:
Agreed.nflslant08 said:
And the difference between last night and the past year or so is that he remembered that he's a great runner. He may not be as fast or as elusive as he was early in his career, but he's still a handful when he gets moving. Mybe it's due to the injuries he's suffered along the way or maybe it's because he was detrmined to prove that he can be a pocket passer, but for some reason, McNabb took this element of his game away. Part of the reason he led the Eagles to all those NFC Championship games, despite having horrible receivers, was the fact that he was a nightmare to gameplan against.If he can use last night as an awakening, and not just a lucky game buried between his bad ones, than he will definitely get HOF considerations. He may not get in, but with his stats, combined with his team accomplishments, he'll certainly receive votes.
I completely agree... He has had plenty of opportunities to run this year and he's held back, which has severely limited his game the past few weeks. He said in a press conference that he was just trying to let his receivers make plays, but he really doesn't have that big, physical WR that can make a play on the ball in the air.I don't think anyone is asking him to run for 100 yds on a given night, but take what the defense gives you and pick up 5 or 10 yards here and there to keep drives alive and momentum in your favor. If he does this, he'll be fine.
So your inclusion of the Post Season in your analysis only includes statistics and not Wins and Losses which is the true measure of a QB in the Post Season.Your rankings mean nothing.
paging Mr. Moon. Mr. Warren Moon.dumb azxLadies and Gentlemen- the Shark Pool...
This is why it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation in this thread. Someone states an opinion about a black QB and everyone screams bigotry. So if I didn't vote for Obama I'm racist too?
If you continued to read my statement instead of stopping at that last sentence you quoted, you'd see that I backed it up with opinion. You want stats? You can't handle the stats. How many black QBs have won a superbowl? One, Doug Williams. How many black QBs have been converted to WR in the NFL? Compare that to QBs, you'll find that blacks are higher. Take a look at every single black NFL QB's stats from the age of 23-28. Then look at those same stats 28 onward. I guarantee the VAST majority will decline HEAVILY because they are no longer as nimble as they once were. They can't throw the ball because they relied so much on their athleticism that they didn't develop a solid passing game.
Ohhh see I know what you're going to come back with- How many black QBs are there in the NFL compared to white QBs... so how can it be fair to compare superbowl wins? Well there's my point exactly. How many college black QBs are there? Look at the ratio. Then look at the ratio of NFL black Qbs. There is your proof
St. Louis after they signed Bulger to a hefty deal? The coach got fired for benching him for one game. AZ spent a high 1st round draft pick on a QB... sure he hasn't been ready and has shown to be nothing but a bust- but anyhow why go after a QB who can't throw when you've got WRs who love to stretch the field? AZ has bigger problems than QB, even if Warner retires. SF is awful. Again, a downgraded offense.1/3 of the league is interested... "many" of them are solid teams? No. Of that entire list AZ, TN and TB are the only solid teams, and they are the 3 least likely to go out and spend bank on a QB. You think AZ, possibly the cheapest franchise out there, wants to go spend money on a QB like McNabb? TB has bigger problems than QB, and with all the grief they've taken in the past couple years for stock piling QBs I don't expect them to go out again and grab another couple. And TN will probably pass the reins onto Young if Collins retires... they won't go out and spend lots of money to rent McNabb for a year or two when he'll command a hefty contract for many years.You could add St. Louis, SF, and Ariz if Warner retires to the mix. Yeah, so only 1/3 of the league would be interested. Many of them are very solid teams. What was your point again?VERYWhat's so ridiculous is that people assume he continues his career averages... he's on a decline with his numbers! He is most likely out of PHI this offseason, and where does he go? Well there's only a limited number of possibilities:
DET: Not really conducive to good numbers, though at least he has an offensive weapon
CHI: As Charles Barkley would say, just turrable, turrable... Not to mention Orton is looking very very good there right now.
MIN: Berrian much of a better target than Curtis? Not really. One offense centered around the run to another... not much of an upgrade.
HOU: I highly doubt they sign him, but they need a QB so maybe... his best chance at putting up good numbers but I don't think they sign him.
KC: Thigpen looks great, I doubt they go after a vet
TEN: Possible if Collins retires and if Young isn't ready. They might see it as a chance to mentor the young overrated QB with an older overrated QB. But again, no real great WRs
TB: I'm sure they'd have some interest. An offseason doesn't go by where they try and acquire the rights to another QB.
Bottom line is that PHI is possibly the best team he'll ever play on, and he STILL isn't posting HOF numbers. He's been in the league for 10 years, if he hasn't convinced us by now that he's a HOFer, he never will. You can't have 2 great seasons to finish your 14 year career and expect to make it to the HOF...
Honestly chances are he signs with MIN, who isn't a very solid team. They have plenty of holes. It's a mirror image of PHI (surprise surprise their coach was at PHI).
My point is people think he's going to go into FA and sign with the Colts or the Patriots... all the good teams are taken. What's left over is the bad to mediocre teams that will actually be a step down for him. In order for him to be considered for the HOF, he needs to have an amazing final 5 years or so of his career as well as win at least one superbowl to prove he can hack it.
He needs to focus first on finishing games without panting for air, then he can look towards the HOF
