McNabb a HOFer? (1 Viewer)

[nflslant08]

I recently posted about this in another forum and got ripped, but I stand by my thoughts on this. It was first debated whether or not Kurt Warner was a Hall of Fame QB. In my opinion, with a career year this year and perhaps another playoff run in him, I think he is absolutely worthy of a spot.

So here is my argument for McNabb. I think he is a potential hall of fame candidate, particularly if he has a few more solid seasons and a playoff run or two in the future. He's the most prolific QB for the Eagles franchise, a 5-time Pro Bowler, and took his team to 3 NFC championships and a Super Bowl with a less than mediocre supporting cast for the majority of his tenure. And if you think Warner is a legitimate HOF candidate, ponder this - Warner is 37 with 11 years experience, McNabb is 32 with 10 years experience. As we currently stand, McNabb has more yards, more TDs and less INTs.

Warner does boast the Super Bowl hardware, and League MVP awards, but he had a young Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce in his prime during his successful years in St. Louis, and he has arguably the two best receivers in the NFL in Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin with Arizona now. McNabb had Owens for a year and a half - you know who his other top targets were over his career? Brian Westbrook, Chad Lewis, Duce Staley, Todd Pinkston, L.J. Smith, James Thrash, Reggie Brown, Freddie Mitchell, Greg Lewis. We're talking about two RBs, two backup TEs, and a group of 3rd/4th/CFL WRs. Honestly, I think his stats would be scary good if he had a combination like Holt/Bruce, Boldin/Fitzgerald, Wayne/Harrison. Or even one solid #1 WR or TE to rely on for the majority of his career.

McNabb has also been the more consistent QB over his career, as Warner's success has come in spurts.

As I sit here now, I think Warner is in, and McNabb is out. But I have a hard time believing that if he plays for 4-5 more years, while putting up solid stats, that he doesn't have a very good shot at getting in. So what are you thoughts?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

McNabb would have to revive his career and win a ring somewhere else. Then the whole body of work would come into play and he would be considered. But if he flames out and plays as a marginal starter/mostly backup for seven more years, forget it.

 

[Islanders rule]

I recently posted about this in another forum and got ripped, but I stand by my thoughts on this. It was first debated whether or not Kurt Warner was a Hall of Fame QB. In my opinion, with a career year this year and perhaps another playoff run in him, I think he is absolutely worthy of a spot.

So here is my argument for McNabb. I think he is a potential hall of fame candidate, particularly if he has a few more solid seasons and a playoff run or two in the future. He's the most prolific QB for the Eagles franchise, a 5-time Pro Bowler, and took his team to 3 NFC championships and a Super Bowl with a less than mediocre supporting cast for the majority of his tenure. And if you think Warner is a legitimate HOF candidate, ponder this - Warner is 37 with 11 years experience, McNabb is 32 with 10 years experience. As we currently stand, McNabb has more yards, more TDs and less INTs.

Warner does boast the Super Bowl hardware, and League MVP awards, but he had a young Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce in his prime during his successful years in St. Louis, and he has arguably the two best receivers in the NFL in Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin with Arizona now. McNabb had Owens for a year and a half - you know who his other top targets were over his career? Brian Westbrook, Chad Lewis, Duce Staley, Todd Pinkston, L.J. Smith, James Thrash, Reggie Brown, Freddie Mitchell, Greg Lewis. We're talking about two RBs, two backup TEs, and a group of 3rd/4th/CFL WRs. Honestly, I think his stats would be scary good if he had a combination like Holt/Bruce, Boldin/Fitzgerald, Wayne/Harrison. Or even one solid #1 WR or TE to rely on for the majority of his career.

McNabb has also been the more consistent QB over his career, as Warner's success has come in spurts.

As I sit here now, I think Warner is in, and McNabb is out. But I have a hard time believing that if he plays for 4-5 more years, while putting up solid stats, that he doesn't have a very good shot at getting in. So what are you thoughts?

My thoughts are that you eat & breath Philly cheese steaks.

 

[nflslant08]

My thoughts are that you eat & breath Philly cheese steaks.

lol, I do enjoy Philly's finer delicacies every now and then, but I'm an avid NFL fan and am trying to bring an objective view on this. I do agree that he'll need a couple of playoff runs, and MAYBE a ring before he retires. But I've also seen high school players better than some of the targets he has thrown to over the course of his career. He lit it up nearly every game with T.O., and I think you have to take into consideration the coaching staff and his supporting cast during his tenure. I think he's done the most with the least the past decade.If he plays about 5 more years, it's conceivable that he'll be top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDs... you don't think that deserves a spot in the hall?

 

[rockalum]

first off you are shortchanging mcnabb. the eagles have been to 4 NFC title games and 1 Super Bowl. he's 1-4 in those games. not great.

i don't think he's a hall of famer. he's, maybe, the 3rd best qb of the last decade - maybe. i don't think that's enough to warrant HofF enshrinement.

 

[JSH21]

I'd put Charlie Batch in the Hall of Fame before Mcnabb.

 

[The Great Snook]

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

 

[Bri]

I don't know. I'd lean toward not yet. I think he's far better than some give him credit for but, QBs usually play alot longer. What's the average career length of HOF QBs? He hasn't been super dominant like Sayers or anything where I'd feel like he deserves to get in despite a shorter career. Not yet.

 

[Bri]

But I've also seen high school players better than some of the targets he has thrown to over the course of his career. He lit it up nearly every game with T.O., and I think you have to take into consideration the coaching staff and his supporting cast during his tenure. I think he's done the most with the least the past decade.

(post snipped)Brady did more with a similarly poor WR corp and he'll be compared to his peers.I found the coaching staff and "more with less" comments very odd. It wasn't that long ago that Reid was considerred one of the better coaches and team's wanted to hire members of his staff. It wasn't that long ago that I felt like they had so much depth they almost had too many picks, what are they going to do with them all. (At the time) either way they lose a good player. I hear ya with WRs but other than that, he's been quite fortunate to play on some good teams.

 

[Power Monster]

No way

 

[JohnnyU]

Not a chance in hell at the juncture.

 

[renesauz]

Whether it's fair or not, the perception is that he can't win the big game. To this point, he's won very few games that could be considered "big".

For that reason, he'd have zero chance were he to retire this year. Five more good seasons, a couple DEEP playoff runs, and he might have a legit shot...but as of now, nope. He really needs either a signature win (SB win, or conferance championship with a badly under-equipped team), or a couple more very good (MVP contending) seasons.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

If you really believe that, you shouldn't say anything else. McNabb isn't a Hall of Famer. He's a good quarterback who doesn't seem to have what it takes when the pressure is on. I think he could take a team like Minnesota to the Super Bowl in the right circumstances, but I don't see him in Canton.

 

[zed2283]

Warner no.

McNabb no.

End of story.

 

[Chunky Soup]

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

You think he is overrated because he is black?

 

[Chase Stuart]

I rank McNabb as the 40th greatest overall QB ever and the 38th greatest regular season QB ever. He's a bit ahead of the Mark Brunells and Vinny Testaverdes of the world, but behind the Rich Gannons and Jeff Garcias of NFL history. I don't think the HOF would plummet in credibility if McNabb was elected, but as of today, there are a bunch of QBs I'd rather see put it in there first.

 

[Outkast]

Sorry but McNabb & Hall of Fame. Will never be in the same sentence.

I think you're looking for words like - Chunky soup, injuries, choke & puking in the huddle.

 

[ScottyFargo]

I think that he still has potential but I agree, he'll have to get close to winning a SB again with another team. I think he's got many seasons of play left though.

 

[Tau837]

But I've also seen high school players better than some of the targets he has thrown to over the course of his career. He lit it up nearly every game with T.O., and I think you have to take into consideration the coaching staff and his supporting cast during his tenure. I think he's done the most with the least the past decade.

(post snipped)Brady did more with a similarly poor WR corp and he'll be compared to his peers.I found the coaching staff and "more with less" comments very odd. It wasn't that long ago that Reid was considerred one of the better coaches and team's wanted to hire members of his staff. It wasn't that long ago that I felt like they had so much depth they almost had too many picks, what are they going to do with them all. (At the time) either way they lose a good player. I hear ya with WRs but other than that, he's been quite fortunate to play on some good teams.

Favre is another example of a QB who did well with underwhelming WRs. He had seasons where he had good ones, but he also made some of those guys, like Antonio Freeman. And that's the thing... a good passer can have great WRs, of course, like Montana had Rice, for example. But a good passer can also elevate the play of average WRs. Favre did that. Brady did/does that. McNabb didn't... because he's not a particularly good passer.

 

[Tau837]

McNabb has never been 1st or 2nd team All Pro or won any major award. I agree with those who have posted that, fair or not, he is seen as a player who does not perform well under pressure, which is a tough stigma to overcome to get into the HOF. He has a relatively low completion percentage and TD percentage and a relatively high sack percentage. As a passer, the best thing you can say about him is he has an excellent interception percentage. His rushing ability makes up for that somewhat, but it's not enough.

As for the weak teams that he has supposedly had around him... First of all, he has played on a lot of good teams. His teams have had solid coaching, running games, TEs, and defenses. It's just the WRs that have been weak, other than when Owens was there... but other QBs have done better with poor WRs, as addressed previously.

I do think being a black QB will help him, since only one is in the HOF. Though I don't think it should. Ultimately, I still think he is not close as of now. As someone else said, he'll have to step it up significantly over the next several years to make a legitimate case.

I think Warner is far ahead of McNabb, and IMO Warner is a HOF bubble candidate who stand to push himself over the top with another MVP and/or strong playoff performance this season... and he wouldn't appear to be done either.

 

[nflslant08]

Whether it's fair or not, the perception is that he can't win the big game. To this point, he's won very few games that could be considered "big".For that reason, he'd have zero chance were he to retire this year. Five more good seasons, a couple DEEP playoff runs, and he might have a legit shot...but as of now, nope. He really needs either a signature win (SB win, or conferance championship with a badly under-equipped team), or a couple more very good (MVP contending) seasons.

Yea, I agree with that... I don't think he gets in today, I'm saying based on a few more solid years AND a few more playoff runs.And I also agree he is probably the 3rd best QB of the decade... but the other two are Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, who in my opinion may go down as the two best ever when all is said and done.

 

[Thunderlips]

I think that McNabb is on the career path to the Hall of Fame.....but he isn't in yet. If he continues to put stats up, wins a few more playoff games and rights his own ship (upon his presumed departure from the Eagles)...he'll get in.

 

[nflslant08]

But I've also seen high school players better than some of the targets he has thrown to over the course of his career. He lit it up nearly every game with T.O., and I think you have to take into consideration the coaching staff and his supporting cast during his tenure. I think he's done the most with the least the past decade.

(post snipped)Brady did more with a similarly poor WR corp and he'll be compared to his peers.I found the coaching staff and "more with less" comments very odd. It wasn't that long ago that Reid was considerred one of the better coaches and team's wanted to hire members of his staff. It wasn't that long ago that I felt like they had so much depth they almost had too many picks, what are they going to do with them all. (At the time) either way they lose a good player. I hear ya with WRs but other than that, he's been quite fortunate to play on some good teams.

Reid is a good coach, but Belichick is better. Reid takes on too much responsibility between making all the personnel decisions, play-calling, and coaching. They have never been a great team with the draft, probably in large part due to Reid, even with a lot of picks. And McNabb may be looked at as bad in pressure situations, but I think you can make the same argument for Reid, which did not help McNabb. He has been terrible with clock management since he's been here, and Reid has never built the team to win close games - their best physical runner was Duce Staley. I know some of this has to fall on McNabb, but I think a lot of it falls on Andy, too.I also think that even though Brady didn't have a stud WR before Moss, Deion Branch and Troy Brown were still much better options than what the Eagles had to offer.

 

[Andy Herron]

McNabb a HOFer?

No way, not even close.

Next question?

 

[Interseptopus]

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

You think he is overrated because he is black?

Absolutely. Rush was dead on. The media overrate this guy through the roof because they desperately want to see a black NFL QB succeed. Bottom line is the typical black QB will not succeed in the NFL as often as a white NFL QB. Call it stereotyping, call it racism (though I don't see how it is)... they're stereotypes for a reason, because for the majority they are TRUE. Blacks in sports are typically (excluding linemen etc) more athletic than their white counterparts. That is why you see a majority of black NFL RBs and WRs. In college having a very athletic QB is a huge advantage. The college game is built more around a mobile QB. A player with speed is much better suited as a QB rather than a WR (this is why you see so many option QBs transitioned to WR in the NFL, it doesn't work in the NFL). Everyone is fast in the NFL, so a mobile/athletic QB doesn't translate well from college to pros. In the NFL the focus is more on arm strength, passing accuracy and making smart decisions with your passes. A black QB in college got very little practice with passing, therefore will not have a strong and accurate arm, and will therefore make bad decisions with passes. Also, it takes smarts to run an NFL offense. No offense and I may be biting off more than I can chew here, but where they find some of these athletically gifted black QBs... they don't come from neighborhoods known for their education. McNabb did score a 12 on his Wonderlic...McNabb is vastly overrated due to his color because he isn't the protypical black QB coming out of college. He is mobile, yes... well he WAS mobile, but he isn't a Michael Vick, Randel El, Holliday coming out of college known for their elusiveness and not have it translate well to the NFL. McNabb was the most complete black NFL QB to come out of college in a very long time, therefore the media wanted to see him succeed. Here finally was a guy who didn't just run fast. He could actually throw the ball. Unfortunately they played him up so high and made him seem (like to this OP) as a potential HOFer. Personally I think Jason Campbell is a more complete QB than McNabb ever was/will be. I think Campbell has a better shot at making the HOF than McNabb. McNabb is a bum and just because he has posted decent stats over the last 10 years does not warrant him a place amongst the greatest to ever play the game.And as a side note- Warner does NOT deserve to make it to the HOF. Put him on an average team (NYG for instance) and see him struggle when he can't just heave the ball down the field to a top WR (Bruce/Holt and Fitzgerald/Boldin). Warner has won superbowls, McNabb hasn't. That's the ONLY thing on Warner's side... he's led teams to superbowls and he's put up mad stats. McNabb has done neither of those

 

[Ghost Rider]

If he plays about 5 more years, it's conceivable that he'll be top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDs... you don't think that deserves a spot in the hall?

Vinny Testaverde is in the top 10 in both of those categories. Would you put him in the Hall?

 

[Interseptopus]

If he plays about 5 more years, it's conceivable that he'll be top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDs... you don't think that deserves a spot in the hall?

Vinny Testaverde is in the top 10 in both of those categories. Would you put him in the Hall?

VERY What's so ridiculous is that people assume he continues his career averages... he's on a decline with his numbers! He is most likely out of PHI this offseason, and where does he go? Well there's only a limited number of possibilitiesET: Not really conducive to good numbers, though at least he has an offensive weaponCHI: As Charles Barkley would say, just turrable, turrable... Not to mention Orton is looking very very good there right now.MIN: Berrian much of a better target than Curtis? Not really. One offense centered around the run to another... not much of an upgrade.HOU: I highly doubt they sign him, but they need a QB so maybe... his best chance at putting up good numbers but I don't think they sign him.KC: Thigpen looks great, I doubt they go after a vetTEN: Possible if Collins retires and if Young isn't ready. They might see it as a chance to mentor the young overrated QB with an older overrated QB. But again, no real great WRsTB: I'm sure they'd have some interest. An offseason doesn't go by where they try and acquire the rights to another QB. Bottom line is that PHI is possibly the best team he'll ever play on, and he STILL isn't posting HOF numbers. He's been in the league for 10 years, if he hasn't convinced us by now that he's a HOFer, he never will. You can't have 2 great seasons to finish your 14 year career and expect to make it to the HOF...

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Sorry but McNabb & Hall of Fame will never be in the same sentence.I think you're looking for words like - Chunky soup, injuries, choke & puking in the huddle.

Except, you know, like that.

 

[gonzobill5]

Let's simplify the argument:

If he wins a superbowl, he'll be a HOFer. If not, his inability to step it up in big games will definitely keep him out, since his stats aren't off the charts good.

After watching him for 10 years, I personally think that he's only looked like a HOFer in glimpses. His first few years in the league, he had that x factor that made him seem like the best player on the field at times. In 04 that whole offense peaked, and he hasn't shown that at all since.

Whoever said that Campbell is a more complete QB is a whacko. And stop it with the Rush Limbaugh talk, really, it was moronic.

 

[CalBear]

Bottom line is the typical black QB will not succeed in the NFL as often as a white NFL QB. Call it stereotyping, call it racism (though I don't see how it is)... they're stereotypes for a reason, because for the majority they are TRUE.

Do you have any evidence that typical black QBs will not suceed in the NFL as often as white QBs? What are the sizes of the populations, and the opportunities they were granted? What, you don't have any data, just bigotry? That's what I thought.

 

[Sea Bass]

Close but no cigar.

 

[brutha]

alright, another great HOF thread lol

honestly I wish they'd just get rid of the whole thing and the pro bowl too. It's become a yawn at best, a joke at worst. Like the pro bowl it's largely a popularity contest with people paying more attention to pro bowls and stats than how good they actually were, which can only be truly understood by having seen the player play a LOT in his day.

 

[prosopis]

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

That is what I came in to say.

 

[gonzobill5]

If he plays about 5 more years, it's conceivable that he'll be top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDs... you don't think that deserves a spot in the hall?

Vinny Testaverde is in the top 10 in both of those categories. Would you put him in the Hall?

VERY What's so ridiculous is that people assume he continues his career averages... he's on a decline with his numbers! He is most likely out of PHI this offseason, and where does he go? Well there's only a limited number of possibilitiesET: Not really conducive to good numbers, though at least he has an offensive weaponCHI: As Charles Barkley would say, just turrable, turrable... Not to mention Orton is looking very very good there right now.MIN: Berrian much of a better target than Curtis? Not really. One offense centered around the run to another... not much of an upgrade.HOU: I highly doubt they sign him, but they need a QB so maybe... his best chance at putting up good numbers but I don't think they sign him.KC: Thigpen looks great, I doubt they go after a vetTEN: Possible if Collins retires and if Young isn't ready. They might see it as a chance to mentor the young overrated QB with an older overrated QB. But again, no real great WRsTB: I'm sure they'd have some interest. An offseason doesn't go by where they try and acquire the rights to another QB. Bottom line is that PHI is possibly the best team he'll ever play on, and he STILL isn't posting HOF numbers. He's been in the league for 10 years, if he hasn't convinced us by now that he's a HOFer, he never will. You can't have 2 great seasons to finish your 14 year career and expect to make it to the HOF...

You could add St. Louis, SF, and Ariz if Warner retires to the mix. Yeah, so only 1/3 of the league would be interested. Many of them are very solid teams. What was your point again?

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

I recently posted about this in another forum and got ripped, but I stand by my thoughts on this. It was first debated whether or not Kurt Warner was a Hall of Fame QB. In my opinion, with a career year this year and perhaps another playoff run in him, I think he is absolutely worthy of a spot.

So here is my argument for McNabb. I think he is a potential hall of fame candidate, particularly if he has a few more solid seasons and a playoff run or two in the future. He's the most prolific QB for the Eagles franchise, a 5-time Pro Bowler, and took his team to 3 NFC championships and a Super Bowl with a less than mediocre supporting cast for the majority of his tenure. And if you think Warner is a legitimate HOF candidate, ponder this - Warner is 37 with 11 years experience, McNabb is 32 with 10 years experience. As we currently stand, McNabb has more yards, more TDs and less INTs.

Warner does boast the Super Bowl hardware, and League MVP awards, but he had a young Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce in his prime during his successful years in St. Louis, and he has arguably the two best receivers in the NFL in Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin with Arizona now. McNabb had Owens for a year and a half - you know who his other top targets were over his career? Brian Westbrook, Chad Lewis, Duce Staley, Todd Pinkston, L.J. Smith, James Thrash, Reggie Brown, Freddie Mitchell, Greg Lewis. We're talking about two RBs, two backup TEs, and a group of 3rd/4th/CFL WRs. Honestly, I think his stats would be scary good if he had a combination like Holt/Bruce, Boldin/Fitzgerald, Wayne/Harrison. Or even one solid #1 WR or TE to rely on for the majority of his career.

McNabb has also been the more consistent QB over his career, as Warner's success has come in spurts.

As I sit here now, I think Warner is in, and McNabb is out. But I have a hard time believing that if he plays for 4-5 more years, while putting up solid stats, that he doesn't have a very good shot at getting in. So what are you thoughts?

No.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

I rank McNabb as the 40th greatest overall QB ever and the 38th greatest regular season QB ever. He's a bit ahead of the Mark Brunells and Vinny Testaverdes of the world, but behind the Rich Gannons and Jeff Garcias of NFL history. I don't think the HOF would plummet in credibility if McNabb was elected, but as of today, there are a bunch of QBs I'd rather see put it in there first.

Based on your list, Warner's a lock then?

 

[Andy Herron]

McNabb is not worthy of this thread, let alone consideration for the HOF.

Can somebody please offer up a "real" candidate?

 

[Slider]

Bottom line is the typical black QB will not succeed in the NFL as often as a white NFL QB. Call it stereotyping, call it racism (though I don't see how it is)... they're stereotypes for a reason, because for the majority they are TRUE.

Do you have any evidence that typical black QBs will not suceed in the NFL as often as white QBs? What are the sizes of the populations, and the opportunities they were granted? What, you don't have any data, just bigotry? That's what I thought.

Black QB's generally seem to be slower at reading D's and utilizing WR's. I'm no bigot. Care to offer up some of your evidence? Those that throw out insults with nothing to back it up are generally just what they are calling the other side.

 

[CalBear]

Black QB's generally seem to be slower at reading D's and utilizing WR's. I'm no bigot. Care to offer up some of your evidence? Those that throw out insults with nothing to back it up are generally just what they are calling the other side.

Really, McNabb is slower at reading defenses than Andrew Walter? Daunte Culpepper didn't utilize WRs as well as Ryan Leaf?There are a lot more white QBs at the NFL level than black QBs. There are some black QBs who don't do well, and there are some who've been very successful. There are a ton of white QBs who are slow at reading Ds; the much larger population of white QBs will naturally produce more top QBs as well as a longer list of busts.

 

[Interseptopus]

Bottom line is the typical black QB will not succeed in the NFL as often as a white NFL QB. Call it stereotyping, call it racism (though I don't see how it is)... they're stereotypes for a reason, because for the majority they are TRUE.

Do you have any evidence that typical black QBs will not suceed in the NFL as often as white QBs? What are the sizes of the populations, and the opportunities they were granted? What, you don't have any data, just bigotry? That's what I thought.

Ladies and Gentlemen- the Shark Pool... This is why it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation in this thread. Someone states an opinion about a black QB and everyone screams bigotry. So if I didn't vote for Obama I'm racist too? If you continued to read my statement instead of stopping at that last sentence you quoted, you'd see that I backed it up with opinion. You want stats? You can't handle the stats. How many black QBs have won a superbowl? One, Doug Williams. How many black QBs have been converted to WR in the NFL? Compare that to QBs, you'll find that blacks are higher. Take a look at every single black NFL QB's stats from the age of 23-28. Then look at those same stats 28 onward. I guarantee the VAST majority will decline HEAVILY because they are no longer as nimble as they once were. They can't throw the ball because they relied so much on their athleticism that they didn't develop a solid passing game. Ohhh see I know what you're going to come back with- How many black QBs are there in the NFL compared to white QBs... so how can it be fair to compare superbowl wins? Well there's my point exactly. How many college black QBs are there? Look at the ratio. Then look at the ratio of NFL black Qbs. There is your proof

If he plays about 5 more years, it's conceivable that he'll be top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDs... you don't think that deserves a spot in the hall?

Vinny Testaverde is in the top 10 in both of those categories. Would you put him in the Hall?

VERY What's so ridiculous is that people assume he continues his career averages... he's on a decline with his numbers! He is most likely out of PHI this offseason, and where does he go? Well there's only a limited number of possibilitiesET: Not really conducive to good numbers, though at least he has an offensive weaponCHI: As Charles Barkley would say, just turrable, turrable... Not to mention Orton is looking very very good there right now.MIN: Berrian much of a better target than Curtis? Not really. One offense centered around the run to another... not much of an upgrade.HOU: I highly doubt they sign him, but they need a QB so maybe... his best chance at putting up good numbers but I don't think they sign him.KC: Thigpen looks great, I doubt they go after a vetTEN: Possible if Collins retires and if Young isn't ready. They might see it as a chance to mentor the young overrated QB with an older overrated QB. But again, no real great WRsTB: I'm sure they'd have some interest. An offseason doesn't go by where they try and acquire the rights to another QB. Bottom line is that PHI is possibly the best team he'll ever play on, and he STILL isn't posting HOF numbers. He's been in the league for 10 years, if he hasn't convinced us by now that he's a HOFer, he never will. You can't have 2 great seasons to finish your 14 year career and expect to make it to the HOF...

You could add St. Louis, SF, and Ariz if Warner retires to the mix. Yeah, so only 1/3 of the league would be interested. Many of them are very solid teams. What was your point again?

St. Louis after they signed Bulger to a hefty deal? The coach got fired for benching him for one game. AZ spent a high 1st round draft pick on a QB... sure he hasn't been ready and has shown to be nothing but a bust- but anyhow why go after a QB who can't throw when you've got WRs who love to stretch the field? AZ has bigger problems than QB, even if Warner retires. SF is awful. Again, a downgraded offense.1/3 of the league is interested... "many" of them are solid teams? No. Of that entire list AZ, TN and TB are the only solid teams, and they are the 3 least likely to go out and spend bank on a QB. You think AZ, possibly the cheapest franchise out there, wants to go spend money on a QB like McNabb? TB has bigger problems than QB, and with all the grief they've taken in the past couple years for stock piling QBs I don't expect them to go out again and grab another couple. And TN will probably pass the reins onto Young if Collins retires... they won't go out and spend lots of money to rent McNabb for a year or two when he'll command a hefty contract for many years. Honestly chances are he signs with MIN, who isn't a very solid team. They have plenty of holes. It's a mirror image of PHI (surprise surprise their coach was at PHI).My point is people think he's going to go into FA and sign with the Colts or the Patriots... all the good teams are taken. What's left over is the bad to mediocre teams that will actually be a step down for him. In order for him to be considered for the HOF, he needs to have an amazing final 5 years or so of his career as well as win at least one superbowl to prove he can hack it. He needs to focus first on finishing games without panting for air, then he can look towards the HOF

 

[Interseptopus]

I recently posted about this in another forum and got ripped, but I stand by my thoughts on this. It was first debated whether or not Kurt Warner was a Hall of Fame QB. In my opinion, with a career year this year and perhaps another playoff run in him, I think he is absolutely worthy of a spot.

So here is my argument for McNabb. I think he is a potential hall of fame candidate, particularly if he has a few more solid seasons and a playoff run or two in the future. He's the most prolific QB for the Eagles franchise, a 5-time Pro Bowler, and took his team to 3 NFC championships and a Super Bowl with a less than mediocre supporting cast for the majority of his tenure. And if you think Warner is a legitimate HOF candidate, ponder this - Warner is 37 with 11 years experience, McNabb is 32 with 10 years experience. As we currently stand, McNabb has more yards, more TDs and less INTs.

Warner does boast the Super Bowl hardware, and League MVP awards, but he had a young Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce in his prime during his successful years in St. Louis, and he has arguably the two best receivers in the NFL in Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin with Arizona now. McNabb had Owens for a year and a half - you know who his other top targets were over his career? Brian Westbrook, Chad Lewis, Duce Staley, Todd Pinkston, L.J. Smith, James Thrash, Reggie Brown, Freddie Mitchell, Greg Lewis. We're talking about two RBs, two backup TEs, and a group of 3rd/4th/CFL WRs. Honestly, I think his stats would be scary good if he had a combination like Holt/Bruce, Boldin/Fitzgerald, Wayne/Harrison. Or even one solid #1 WR or TE to rely on for the majority of his career.

McNabb has also been the more consistent QB over his career, as Warner's success has come in spurts.

As I sit here now, I think Warner is in, and McNabb is out. But I have a hard time believing that if he plays for 4-5 more years, while putting up solid stats, that he doesn't have a very good shot at getting in. So what are you thoughts?

No.

short and sweet and 100% correct

 

[timschochet]

Forget the stats. All I know is that he was the entire Philly offense for 5 years and took them to the playoffs every year. They had no running game, lousy receivers, and a good but not great defense, and yet they went to the playoffs and the NFC Championship game and once the Superbowl. He probably won't get in because he is not popular for whatever reason, but he absolutely deserves it.

Warner does too. Warner in his prime is probably the greatest quarterback I've ever seen.

 

[Bri]

But I've also seen high school players better than some of the targets he has thrown to over the course of his career. He lit it up nearly every game with T.O., and I think you have to take into consideration the coaching staff and his supporting cast during his tenure. I think he's done the most with the least the past decade.

(post snipped)Brady did more with a similarly poor WR corp and he'll be compared to his peers.I found the coaching staff and "more with less" comments very odd. It wasn't that long ago that Reid was considerred one of the better coaches and team's wanted to hire members of his staff. It wasn't that long ago that I felt like they had so much depth they almost had too many picks, what are they going to do with them all. (At the time) either way they lose a good player. I hear ya with WRs but other than that, he's been quite fortunate to play on some good teams.

Reid is a good coach, but Belichick is better. Reid takes on too much responsibility between making all the personnel decisions, play-calling, and coaching. They have never been a great team with the draft, probably in large part due to Reid, even with a lot of picks. And McNabb may be looked at as bad in pressure situations, but I think you can make the same argument for Reid, which did not help McNabb. He has been terrible with clock management since he's been here, and Reid has never built the team to win close games - their best physical runner was Duce Staley. I know some of this has to fall on McNabb, but I think a lot of it falls on Andy, too.I also think that even though Brady didn't have a stud WR before Moss, Deion Branch and Troy Brown were still much better options than what the Eagles had to offer.

Some good points, you didn't make any convincing points toward the HOF though in your rebuttal. I'll debate bro. I like McNabb alot more than most just think "not yet"

 

[timschochet]

Rush was right, and that is all I have to say.

That is what I came in to say.

What Rush said was crap.Sorry to say this, I don't think he's been that good from the get-go. I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team.

If you actually believe this, then you weren't watching Donovan during his first half dozen years in the league, in which he had no receivers, no running game, but managed to go to the playoffs every year. Rush's comments were borderline racist, as well as ignorant, and it's a darn good thing he was fired for them.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Forget the stats. All I know is that he was the entire Philly offense for 5 years and took them to the playoffs every year. They had no running game, lousy receivers, and a good but not great defense, and yet they went to the playoffs and the NFC Championship game and once the Superbowl.

From '00-'04, the Eagles were 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 7th and 4th in points allowed. I would say those defenses were more than just good. Also:In '00, the Eagles were 4th in the NFL in rushing. In '01, the Eagles were 8th in the NFL in rushing. In '02, the Eagles were 8th in the NFL in rushing.In '03, the Eagles were 5th in the NFL in rushingIn '04, the Eagles were 10th in the NFL in rushing.While McNabb had some of those rushing yards in all of those years, Duce Staley, Buckhalter and Westbrook were all productive contributors throughout those years, so to insist that he had no running game is completely false. Maybe he never had a true featured back, but he was always getting production from his RBs as a unit.

 

[Tau837]

Forget the stats. All I know is that he was the entire Philly offense for 5 years and took them to the playoffs every year. They had no running game, lousy receivers, and a good but not great defense, and yet they went to the playoffs and the NFC Championship game and once the Superbowl.

From '00-'04, the Eagles were 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 7th and 4th in points allowed. I would say those defenses were more than just good. Also:In '00, the Eagles were 4th in the NFL in rushing. In '01, the Eagles were 8th in the NFL in rushing. In '02, the Eagles were 8th in the NFL in rushing.In '03, the Eagles were 5th in the NFL in rushingIn '04, the Eagles were 10th in the NFL in rushing.While McNabb had some of those rushing yards in all of those years, Duce Staley, Buckhalter and Westbrook were all productive contributors throughout those years, so to insist that he had no running game is completely false.

ETA: And Owens was on that Super Bowl team, too.

 

[nflslant08]

If he plays about 5 more years, it's conceivable that he'll be top 10 all-time in passing yards and TDs... you don't think that deserves a spot in the hall?

Vinny Testaverde is in the top 10 in both of those categories. Would you put him in the Hall?

You want to compare Vinny to Donovan? OK.... Vinny Had 8 years out of 21 where he had more TD's than INTs... Donovan has NEVER had a year where he's thrown more INTs than TDs.

Personally I think Jason Campbell is a more complete QB than McNabb ever was/will be. I think Campbell has a better shot at making the HOF than McNabb. McNabb is a bum and just because he has posted decent stats over the last 10 years does not warrant him a place amongst the greatest to ever play the game.

I don't know what you're smoking, but Campbell has had 1/2 of a good season, McNabb has been a top QB for 10 years. If you honestly are ready to put Campbell over McNabb based on that short of a window, I cannot respect any input you may have on the situation. And I am a Campbell fan, I think he's been great this year, but it is absurd to compare him to McNabb at this point in his young career.

What's so ridiculous is that people assume he continues his career averages... he's on a decline with his numbers!

Have you taken a look at his statistics lately? He's on target to match or exceed his career averages in yards, completion percentage and TDs this year. I think it's admirable you're trying to base your argument on the past two games, but look at the stats before you make such a ridiculous statement!

Absolutely. Rush was dead on. The media overrate this guy through the roof because they desperately want to see a black NFL QB succeed.

Umm, if you've noticed, none of my arguments have or will have anything to do with race. They have to do with passing statistics and analyzing the teams he has played with compared to other 'great' QBs in the past decade or so. His stats compare with some of the best in this game, and again, he has had arguably one of the worst supporting casts of any of these potential HOF QBs. I don't want race to factor into this issue, because being inducted into the HOF only has to do with one thing - how well you played the game of football at your respective position, period.

 

[CalBear]

This is why it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation in this thread. Someone states an opinion about a black QB and everyone screams bigotry. So if I didn't vote for Obama I'm racist too?

If you didn't vote for Obama because he's black, then yes, you're racist.

If you continued to read my statement instead of stopping at that last sentence you quoted, you'd see that I backed it up with opinion. You want stats? You can't handle the stats. How many black QBs have won a superbowl? One, Doug Williams. How many black QBs have been converted to WR in the NFL? Compare that to QBs, you'll find that blacks are higher. Take a look at every single black NFL QB's stats from the age of 23-28. Then look at those same stats 28 onward. I guarantee the VAST majority will decline HEAVILY because they are no longer as nimble as they once were. They can't throw the ball because they relied so much on their athleticism that they didn't develop a solid passing game.

Ohhh see I know what you're going to come back with- How many black QBs are there in the NFL compared to white QBs... so how can it be fair to compare superbowl wins? Well there's my point exactly. How many college black QBs are there? Look at the ratio. Then look at the ratio of NFL black Qbs. There is your proof

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."Randal Cunningham had the best season of his career (and one of the best QB seasons in history by some measures) at age 35. Warren Moon didn't even enter the NFL until age 28 and he made the Hall of Fame. Steve McNair was co-MVP at age 30. Matt Jones and Eric Crouch were converted to WR in the NFL. Therefore...what? Therefore nothing. These are individual players, with different strengths and weaknesses, and their personal characteristics as players have nothing to do with their race.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Like the Jethro Tull song said, You've got the whole damn thing all wrong. The Hall of Fame is not, or at least should not be about compiling numbers in a numbers rich era and comparing them to the past, nor should it be about compiling meaningless numbers. The Hall of Fame is about the story of the NFL. Is the player necessary to the telling of that story. Warner is a multiple MVP winner. He Q.B.'d the Greatest Show on Turf after emerging from the shadow of a three time MVP and rising from obscurity as a grocery clerk. He is a Superbowl winner. His career suffered adversity and crashed, and like his Jesus has been resurrected to be the trigger man of one of the great ariel assualts of all time reviving a moribund franchise. His story is essential to relating the NFL story.

McNaab was handed the starting job for a franchise with an excellent offensive line, two very fine backs in Staley and then Westbrook, a good to great defense and a pass happy coach in a pass happy era. He held the job against no internal competition and performed fairly well in the conference that lacked quality Q.B.'s, thereby allowing him to slide into a few pro bowls. In his conference he was always overshadowed by Favre, and often overshadowed by Warner. Some years he was overshadowed by Dante Culpepper, Jeff Garcia, and Hasselbach. Then after pooping the sheets in his only Superbowl he saw several young guns move into his conference, and when he should be at the height of his career due to age and experience his play dropped off to the point where at best he was an average signal caller in his conference, where his backup is regularly pleaded for by the fans, and to where his coach's job is in jeopardy.

News flash. The prima donna had it handed to him and did nothing with it. His is a story of underachievement and frustration. potential never realized. His story should barely be told other than as a cautionary tale and is certainly not essential to the NFL's story.

Right now in his conference I would rather have Brees, Romo, Rogers, Manning, and Warner. I'm not certain that for next year I wouldn't also want Cambell and Ryan. Hell this year I'd rather have Garcia, and next year I might have to add Orton to the list of equal options made better by relative youth.

 

[JSH21]

Mcnabb took advantage of a stretch of years where the whole NFC was terrible and rode his defense the whole way. What Rush said was dead on. I've always thought the guy was a very inaccurate passer, but that seemed to always be ignored because of the media pushing this guy down our throat. Same thing with Mike Vick...the dude is an absolutely horrible quarterback and it made me sick every time I heard him talked about amongst the elite.