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Meachem TD scored as offense or defense play? (1 Viewer)

Note that Meachem's stats are listed under "Misc", not "Regular Defensive Plays" or "Special Teams Plays".It will be interesting to see if the NFL counts this as a "Defensive TD" or if it counts against Washington's "Points Allowed" when the team stats are updated later this week.
According to official NFL rules, there's no such thing as a defensive TD- the rule you posted clearly explains that once the defense has possession, it's the offense, and any TD scored is officially an offensive TD. Even if the NFL did differentiate between defensive and offensive TDs, though, it wouldn't matter- all points scored are counted in your PPG stat, and all points your opponent scores are counted in your points allowed stat. Meachem's TD will affect Washington's points allowed stat... just like all of those Pick Sixes that Darren Sharper has gotten have affected his opponent's points allowed stat, too. That doesn't mean those Sharper TDs should be counted as offensive TDs for fantasy purposes.
 
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SSOG said:
Mr. Retukes said:
SSOG said:
Mr. Retukes said:
Meachem was on offense in both scenarios. If you're going to say that Meachem somehow "switched" from offense to defense, then you must also say that he "switched back" from defense to offense as soon as he recovered the fumble.
If at any point during a play the other team possesses the ball, then you are a defender. It's that simple. There's no "switching back".
That's not how the NFL rules it. Rule 3, Section 35 specifically states that teams switch from offense to defense anytime there is a change of possession.Do you think it's logical that there would be 2 defenses on the field at the same time?
Check the official gamebook which someone already posted. Meachem's yards are not included with the offensive yardage under "Total Net Yards", and they are not included in the "average gain per offensive play". His TD is listed as a "Fumble" TD. Under "Final Defensive Statistics", Meachem is listed with a tackle, a forced fumble, and a fumble recovery. According to official NFL scorekeeping, Meachem's fumble recovery was a DEFENSIVE play, so if a TD results from said fumble recovery, it is a DEFENSIVE TD.The way the NFL rules it, there is no such thing as a defensive TD, because once the defense gets the ball they're the offense. For fantasy purposes, any TD scored on a defensive play is a defensive TD... and Meachem's TD was scored on a defensive play, as per official NFL scoring.
Psst. Scroll down a little further on that Game Book. All the way to the end. Under "Touchdown Scoring Information", how many Defensive TDs are listed for New Orleans? :popcorn:

 
This is puzzling to me. MFL scores it as an offensive fumble recovery touchdown by Meachem. He gets points for the touchdown and the Saints defense gets credit for Meachem's fumble recovery.

While checking MFL's definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown in the scoring setup, the following disclaimer appears when offensive fumble recovery is highlighted.

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

This applies to some of the plays mentioned in earlier posts (McMichael, etc.) where a member of the offensive team fumbles and a teammate recovers the fumble and and returns it for a touchdown, but not the Meachem play. He forced and recovered a fumble from an opposing player, by MFL's own definition this play is not an offensive fumble recovery touchdown.

Thank goodness my league has rules for this already spelled out.

 
SSOG said:
Mr. Retukes said:
Note that Meachem's stats are listed under "Misc", not "Regular Defensive Plays" or "Special Teams Plays".

It will be interesting to see if the NFL counts this as a "Defensive TD" or if it counts against Washington's "Points Allowed" when the team stats are updated later this week.
According to official NFL rules, there's no such thing as a defensive TD- the rule you posted clearly explains that once the defense has possession, it's the offense, and any TD scored is officially an offensive TD. Even if the NFL did differentiate between defensive and offensive TDs, though, it wouldn't matter- all points scored are counted in your PPG stat, and all points your opponent scores are counted in your points allowed stat. Meachem's TD will affect Washington's points allowed stat... just like all of those Pick Sixes that Darren Sharper has gotten have affected his opponent's points allowed stat, too. That doesn't mean those Sharper TDs should be counted as offensive TDs for fantasy purposes.
To clarify, are you saying that DEF scoring effects Def points against in NFL stats or fantasy stats?
 
I just looked at the gamebook again. I didn't realize that under Defensive Misc that it doesn't have a touchdown listed. Only the tackle, forced fumble, and fumble recovery.

The TD is listed under individual stats under fumbles.

 
I got to get out of this thread. It's making my head spin. My feeling is a simple one...an offensive player scored a touchdown, the offensive player should get the points.

Anyway, good luck to everyone.

Hopefully no one is in a situation where this will make or break your week, or your playoff run.

 
This is not rocket science. It's a fumble recovery for a TD made by the offense. It's not a rushing td, or reception td, and it has nothing to do with defense or special teams. I believe the offical NFL ruling is what I said also. So, for fantasy purposes, Meachem gets nothing in 99.9% of the leagues out there.

 
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I got to get out of this thread. It's making my head spin. My feeling is a simple one...an offensive player scored a touchdown, the offensive player should get the points.

Anyway, good luck to everyone.

Hopefully no one is in a situation where this will make or break your week, or your playoff run.
Not if it wasn't a reception, rushing, or passing TD he doesn't.
 
This is not rocket science. It's a fumble recovery for a TD made by the offense. It's not a rushing td, or reception td, and it has nothing to do with defense or special teams. I believe the offical NFL ruling is what I said also. So, for fantasy purposes, Meachem gets nothing in 99.9% of the leagues out there.
it is cut and dry. fumble recovery TD only. if your league, like mine, does not give 6PTs for these types of TDs then you SOL
 
Meacham gets the td, no td for the Saint D.
Again, the defense had nothing to do with it. It was a fumble recovery by the offense, so in most leagues Meachem gets nothing. He didn't score on rushing, receiving, or passing TD. He scored on a fumble recovery, so if your league doesn't reward fumble recoveries to individual players, you're SOL, and most leagues don't.
 
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one of my leagues has the "deion sanders rule". from when deion played WR and CB. if you started deion at WR and he scored on defense, you got credit. if you also had dallas defense, you got 2 TDs on the play. using that interpretation, starting meacham at WR gets credit for the score.

 
One reason why I love RT sports they settle it quick heres what they put on out leagues home page:

ALERT from RealTime Fantasy SportsIn the New Orleans - Washington game:

Drew Brees threw a pass that was intercepted by K. Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the ball to the Washington 44, where he was stripped of the ball by Robert Meachem, who then ran for the touchdown.

Per our policy regarding these types of plays, this is an offensive fumble recovery touchdown for Meachem and NOT a defensive fumble recovery touchdown for the Saints. The intent of having a defensive unit on a fantasy team is to own the defensive players of that team; clearly the Saints defensive unit was never on the field at any time during the play.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

 
For those arguing - offense is never defense - per rulebook above

Code:
Section 36 Team A and B, Offense and DefenseArticle 1 Whenever a team is in possession (3-2-7), it is the Offense and, at suchtime, its opponent is the Defense.Article 2 The team that puts the ball in play is Team A, and its opponent is Team B. Forbrevity, a player of Team A is referred to as A1 and his teammates as A2, A3, etc.Opponents are B1, B2, etc.Note: A team becomes Team A when it has been designated to put ball in play, and itremains Team A until a down ends, even though there might be one or more changes ofpossession during the down. This is in contrast with the terms Offense and Defense.Team A is always the offense when a down starts, but becomes the defense if and whenB secures possession during the down, and vice versa for each change of possession.Article 3 A change of possession occurs when a player of the defensive team securespossession of a ball that has been kicked, passed, or fumbled by a player of the offensiveteam, or when the ball is awarded to the offensive team, or when the ball is awardedto the opposing team by rule. A change of possession includes but is not limited to:(a) an interception of a forward pass; or(b) a catch or recovery of a fumble or backward pass; or© a catch or recovery of a Scrimmage Kick, Free Kick, or Fair Catch Kick.(d) when the offensive team fails to reach the line to gain on fourth down.(e) when the offensive team misses a field-goal attempt.
 
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One reason why I love RT sports they settle it quick heres what they put on out leagues home page:ALERT from RealTime Fantasy SportsIn the New Orleans - Washington game:Drew Brees threw a pass that was intercepted by K. Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the ball to the Washington 44, where he was stripped of the ball by Robert Meachem, who then ran for the touchdown. Per our policy regarding these types of plays, this is an offensive fumble recovery touchdown for Meachem and NOT a defensive fumble recovery touchdown for the Saints. The intent of having a defensive unit on a fantasy team is to own the defensive players of that team; clearly the Saints defensive unit was never on the field at any time during the play. Thank you for your understanding in this matter.
CBS put it up right away but they ruled it DST.
 
The problem I see with the MFL scoring now is that they are giving the New Orleans D/ST credit for the fumble recovery on the play. If you're going to do that, then you need to credit the TD as well.

 
Just my .02 but once there is a change of possession, the team on the field becomes the defensive team. Regardless that Brees was playing safety on the play (just kidding) Meacham's rip for six was a defensive takeaway and TD. I know it was a crazy play but I don't think the explanation is all that complicated.

 
I looked it up and the Keenan McCardell play was Week #5 2003. A bit longer ago than I remembered, but it indeed was the same type of play.

Box Score link

Additionally, I found an interesting blurb from MFL about it that year:

The NFL's official statistician is Elias Sports Bureau. We've personally spoken with their representatives and they've told us that their OFFICIAL ruling on the play was that it was a Fumble Recovery TD. They haven't and we've been told won't specify if it's an offensive or defensive fumble recovery TD - it is considered a "miscellaneous play" as far as the NFL is concerned. The one web page that shows this most clearly is the the NFL's Gamebook of that game, where that fumble is listed under the "Misc" heading, not the "Regular Defensive Play" or "Special Teams" heading. The differentiation between "offense" and "defense" is only relevant to fantasy football in this case, and is not required by their contract with the NFL. In short, contrary to many posts you might have read on the various message boards discussing this topic, the NFL does not officially characterize this as either an Offensive or Defensive play, regardless of what statistics you might find on the NFL.com site or other sites that imply (but never state) otherwise.
http://www.myfantasyleague.com/week_5_mccardell2.htmlI'm not sure if anything has changed since 2003 with Elias, but if not then you aren't going to get much help from them or the NFL backing up your side of the argument if your league doesn't have a clear ruling on it.

 
I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.

The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.

I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.

 
I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.

The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.

I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.
I don't think you're reading it correctly. MFL's description does not distinguish between fumbles recovered from the player's own team or recovered from the opponent.True, it says "For example, if a Running Back fumbles..." -- but they could have just as easily written "For example, if a linebacker fumbles...". It's just an example.

 
I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.
This is why it should be scored as a defensive TD. You can't have a TD that is not awarded fantasy points. It counts as a turnover for the Saints defense, it should also count as a TD. Like someone keeps saying, this is not hard.
 
Regardless of whether that TD counts in fantasy or not, Meachem is slowly becoming a fantasy must start. This week against a good pass D: Robert Meachem caught eight passes for 142 yards with a touchdown Week 13. Meachem scored another touchdown by forcing a fumble after an interception. He isn't just catching the deep seam passes anymore, but is being used in many different situations and he always seems to catch the ball and do something good with it. He is becoming: Robert "All he does is score TDs" Meachem.

 
This is why it should be scored as a defensive TD. You can't have a TD that is not awarded fantasy points.
1. Why not? There have been numerous NFL TDs which did not award fantasy points.2. Then give the points to Meachem, since he scored the TD.
 
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The problem I see with the MFL scoring now is that they are giving the New Orleans D/ST credit for the fumble recovery on the play. If you're going to do that, then you need to credit the TD as well.
I think their stance on this is explained as follows:1. When a change of possession occurs, the team that had been on offense becomes the defense and the team that had been on defense becomes the offense. The rule stating this was referenced earlier in the thread.2. When the interception occurred, the Redskins became the offense and the Saints became the defense.3. Thus, when Meachem made the tackle, forced the fumble, and recovered the fumble, he is considered to have been on defense. This is why those could be considered defensive plays resulting in fantasy points credited to the Saints defense.4. Upon the fumble recovery, the Saints became the offense and the Redskins became the defense. Thus, when Meachem scored the TD, it was an offensive fumble recovery TD, not a defensive TD. Hence, no fantasy points are credited to the Saints defense.5. I believe that normally, the fact that the defensive player is considered to have become an offensive player upon change of possession is ignored for TDs. That is, I think they figure the player is a defensive player, and thus the defense should be credited with the TD, not the offense (which for fantasy purposes means there would be no credit for such TDs). But in this case, the "defender" who scored the TD is actually an offensive player. Thus, it does make sense that the points would not be credited to the defense.I know various leagues and sites are scoring it in different ways. IMO the logical way this play should be scored is as follows:1. The Saints defense does not deserve credit for anything (tackle, forced fumble, fumble recovery, or TD).2. Whether or not Meachem deserves credit for any or all of those things depends on league scoring (i.e., whether or not leagues are set up to reward individuals for tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and/or offensive fumble recovery TDs).
 
I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.

The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.

I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.
I don't think you're reading it correctly. MFL's description does not distinguish between fumbles recovered from the player's own team or recovered from the opponent.True, it says "For example, if a Running Back fumbles..." -- but they could have just as easily written "For example, if a linebacker fumbles...". It's just an example.
Try reading the entire quoted portion, how do explain away this part "and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball". It clearly states that it only covers offensive fumbles recovered by a player on the same team as the player who fumbled. Am I missing something here?
 
Regardless of whether that TD counts in fantasy or not, Meachem is slowly becoming a fantasy must start. This week against a good pass D: Robert Meachem caught eight passes for 142 yards with a touchdown Week 13. Meachem scored another touchdown by forcing a fumble after an interception. He isn't just catching the deep seam passes anymore, but is being used in many different situations and he always seems to catch the ball and do something good with it. He is becoming: Robert "All he does is score TDs" Meachem.
:mellow:He is a big time playmaker. He seems to have good speed, good hands, and a nose for the end zone, and he seems to run good routes. Also, entering today, he had a 72% catch percentage and had 0 drops. Frankly, while I understand that the Saints have a lot of good options, I don't really understand why they don't target him more often (as they did today, but normally do not do).
 
The problem I see with the MFL scoring now is that they are giving the New Orleans D/ST credit for the fumble recovery on the play. If you're going to do that, then you need to credit the TD as well.
I think their stance on this is explained as follows:1. When a change of possession occurs, the team that had been on offense becomes the defense and the team that had been on defense becomes the offense. The rule stating this was referenced earlier in the thread.

2. When the interception occurred, the Redskins became the offense and the Saints became the defense.

3. Thus, when Meachem made the tackle, forced the fumble, and recovered the fumble, he is considered to have been on defense. This is why those could be considered defensive plays resulting in fantasy points credited to the Saints defense.

4. Upon the fumble recovery, the Saints became the offense and the Redskins became the defense. Thus, when Meachem scored the TD, it was an offensive fumble recovery TD, not a defensive TD. Hence, no fantasy points are credited to the Saints defense.

5. I believe that normally, the fact that the defensive player is considered to have become an offensive player upon change of possession is ignored for TDs. That is, I think they figure the player is a defensive player, and thus the defense should be credited with the TD, not the offense (which for fantasy purposes means there would be no credit for such TDs). But in this case, the "defender" who scored the TD is actually an offensive player. Thus, it does make sense that the points would not be credited to the defense.

I know various leagues and sites are scoring it in different ways. IMO the logical way this play should be scored is as follows:

1. The Saints defense does not deserve credit for anything (tackle, forced fumble, fumble recovery, or TD).

2. Whether or not Meachem deserves credit for any or all of those things depends on league scoring (i.e., whether or not leagues are set up to reward individuals for tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and/or offensive fumble recovery TDs).
The Saints Def didn't get credit for the TD in any of the 3 MFL leagues I commish, nor should they. MFL scored it as a fumble recovery for a TD by the offense.

 
I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.

The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.

I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.
I don't think you're reading it correctly. MFL's description does not distinguish between fumbles recovered from the player's own team or recovered from the opponent.True, it says "For example, if a Running Back fumbles..." -- but they could have just as easily written "For example, if a linebacker fumbles...". It's just an example.
Try reading the entire quoted portion, how do explain away this part "and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball". It clearly states that it only covers offensive fumbles recovered by a player on the same team as the player who fumbled. Am I missing something here?
Yes. You're missing the words "For example". They provided one example out of numerous possible examples that they could have mentioned. It has nothing to do with the rule itself!If it had said, "For example, if Adrian Peterson fumbles", would you complain to MFL because Adrian Peterson didn't fumble on that play??

 
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I know various leagues and sites are scoring it in different ways. IMO the logical way this play should be scored is as follows:1. The Saints defense does not deserve credit for anything (tackle, forced fumble, fumble recovery, or TD).2. Whether or not Meachem deserves credit for any or all of those things depends on league scoring (i.e., whether or not leagues are set up to reward individuals for tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and/or offensive fumble recovery TDs).
:mellow: Agree 100% (and for the record this is precisely how RTSports scores the play)
 
This is why it should be scored as a defensive TD. You can't have a TD that is not awarded fantasy points.
1. Why not? There have been numerous NFL TDs which did not award fantasy points.2. Then give the points to Meachem, since he scored the TD.
Like what? This play is awarded a defensive TD in all my leagues.
Why would you do that? The defense wasn't on the field.Here is what MFL said...........

1. How is the Fumble Recovery TD after an Interception in the Saints game being scored?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: At the end of the first half, Kareem More of the Redskins intercepted a pass from Drew Brees of the Saints. During the interception return, Moore proceeded to fumble the ball, and then Robert Meachem of the Saints recovered the fumble and ran 43 yards for a TD.

This play is scored as a 43 yard "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" for Robert Meachem. If your league wants Meachem to receive the points for this touchdown, then you'll need to make sure the "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" rule is defined in your scoring rules for the WR position.

This play is NOT scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery TD for the Saints Team Defense position, since their defensive unit was not on the field during that play. If your league wants to score this play differently than how it shows up in the stats, then your commissioner would need to use the "For Commissioners > Adjust Scores and Standings > Player Score Adjuster" screen to add or subtract points to Meachem or the Saints Defense as needed.

Note that for what it is worth, the last time this type of touchdown occurred was 6 years ago in 2003 when the Buccaneers threw an Interception, which was then fumbled and then Keenan McCardell recovered it an ran it in for a TD. So this type of play is very rare, but it was scored the same way the last time it happened.

 
Not sure if this was posted here already, but this is pulled from the Help section on the Sportsline site. Not bad turn around time.

During the New Orleans Saints vs Washington Redskins game Drew Brees threw an INT to Kareem Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the INT 14 yards and was then stripped by Robert Meachem, Meachem recovered the fumble and returned it 44 yards for a TD. This is scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD for the Saints DST. Robert Meachem will not be awarded any fantasy points for this play, because we don't award offensive players defensive stats or defensive players offensive stats. By rule when there is a change of possession via turnover, the offensive team becomes the defense and the defense becomes the offense.Commissioners can use the adjust scoring feature to make any necessary changes, this is found on the Live Scoring page at the bottom. There you can enter the desired scoring change.
 
Not sure if this was posted here already, but this is pulled from the Help section on the Sportsline site. Not bad turn around time.

During the New Orleans Saints vs Washington Redskins game Drew Brees threw an INT to Kareem Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the INT 14 yards and was then stripped by Robert Meachem, Meachem recovered the fumble and returned it 44 yards for a TD. This is scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD for the Saints DST. Robert Meachem will not be awarded any fantasy points for this play, because we don't award offensive players defensive stats or defensive players offensive stats. By rule when there is a change of possession via turnover, the offensive team becomes the defense and the defense becomes the offense.Commissioners can use the adjust scoring feature to make any necessary changes, this is found on the Live Scoring page at the bottom. There you can enter the desired scoring change.
That's absurd. MFL has it right, Sportsline is on drugs, just like their fantasy analysis :goodposting:
 
Not sure if this was posted here already, but this is pulled from the Help section on the Sportsline site. Not bad turn around time.

During the New Orleans Saints vs Washington Redskins game Drew Brees threw an INT to Kareem Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the INT 14 yards and was then stripped by Robert Meachem, Meachem recovered the fumble and returned it 44 yards for a TD. This is scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD for the Saints DST. Robert Meachem will not be awarded any fantasy points for this play, because we don't award offensive players defensive stats or defensive players offensive stats. By rule when there is a change of possession via turnover, the offensive team becomes the defense and the defense becomes the offense.Commissioners can use the adjust scoring feature to make any necessary changes, this is found on the Live Scoring page at the bottom. There you can enter the desired scoring change.
Sure, how much time does it take to turnaround with an answer if you don't think about it?
 
Here is the info from CBSSportsline on the NO D/ST. They must have just recently reviewed it, as their D/DST points changed twice. Initially, after it happened, it was not scored as a D/ST TD. then, toward the end of the game, it was change and was scored. Now, during the evening game, it changed back to NOT being scored for a while, finally settling on being scored, and they updated their "News" section for them.

News: New Orleans was defeated by Washington for three solid quarters in Week 13 in our nation's capital. The Saints won the fourth quarter and they won overtime to win the game. The Saints DST did not limit the Redskins as Washington amassed a season-high 455 yards and scored a season-high 30 points in the 33-30 loss. The Saints DST could not sack QB Jason Campbell and the lone interception came late in the game by Jonathan Vilma. The Vilma pick set up the game-tying 53-yard touchdown pass to Robert Meachem. Speaking of Meachem, he was involved in a weird play that contributes points to the Saints DST. Quarterback Drew Brees threw an INT to Kareem Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the INT 14 yards and was then stripped by Meachem. Meachem recovered the fumble and returned it 44 yards for a TD. This is scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD for the Saints DST. Meachem is not be awarded any fantasy points for this play. By rule when there is a change of possession via turnover, the offensive team becomes the defense and the defense becomes the offense.

 
This is why it should be scored as a defensive TD. You can't have a TD that is not awarded fantasy points.
1. Why not? There have been numerous NFL TDs which did not award fantasy points.2. Then give the points to Meachem, since he scored the TD.
Like what? This play is awarded a defensive TD in all my leagues.
Why would you do that? The defense wasn't on the field.Here is what MFL said...........

1. How is the Fumble Recovery TD after an Interception in the Saints game being scored?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: At the end of the first half, Kareem More of the Redskins intercepted a pass from Drew Brees of the Saints. During the interception return, Moore proceeded to fumble the ball, and then Robert Meachem of the Saints recovered the fumble and ran 43 yards for a TD.

This play is scored as a 43 yard "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" for Robert Meachem. If your league wants Meachem to receive the points for this touchdown, then you'll need to make sure the "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" rule is defined in your scoring rules for the WR position.

This play is NOT scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery TD for the Saints Team Defense position, since their defensive unit was not on the field during that play. If your league wants to score this play differently than how it shows up in the stats, then your commissioner would need to use the "For Commissioners > Adjust Scores and Standings > Player Score Adjuster" screen to add or subtract points to Meachem or the Saints Defense as needed.

Note that for what it is worth, the last time this type of touchdown occurred was 6 years ago in 2003 when the Buccaneers threw an Interception, which was then fumbled and then Keenan McCardell recovered it an ran it in for a TD. So this type of play is very rare, but it was scored the same way the last time it happened.
So MFL scored the play incorrectly and Sportsline scored it correctly.What if the Saints had regained the ball back at their own 10-yard line? Would it then have been 1st and 10 or would it have been 3rd and 40?

 
Here is the info from CBSSportsline on the NO D/ST. They must have just recently reviewed it, as their D/DST points changed twice. Initially, after it happened, it was not scored as a D/ST TD. then, toward the end of the game, it was change and was scored. Now, during the evening game, it changed back to NOT being scored for a while, finally settling on being scored, and they updated their "News" section for them.

News: New Orleans was defeated by Washington for three solid quarters in Week 13 in our nation's capital. The Saints won the fourth quarter and they won overtime to win the game. The Saints DST did not limit the Redskins as Washington amassed a season-high 455 yards and scored a season-high 30 points in the 33-30 loss. The Saints DST could not sack QB Jason Campbell and the lone interception came late in the game by Jonathan Vilma. The Vilma pick set up the game-tying 53-yard touchdown pass to Robert Meachem. Speaking of Meachem, he was involved in a weird play that contributes points to the Saints DST. Quarterback Drew Brees threw an INT to Kareem Moore of the Redskins. Moore returned the INT 14 yards and was then stripped by Meachem. Meachem recovered the fumble and returned it 44 yards for a TD. This is scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery and a Defensive TD for the Saints DST. Meachem is not be awarded any fantasy points for this play. By rule when there is a change of possession via turnover, the offensive team becomes the defense and the defense becomes the offense.
Again, MFL got it right, Sportsline is wrong again as usual.
 
This is why it should be scored as a defensive TD. You can't have a TD that is not awarded fantasy points.
1. Why not? There have been numerous NFL TDs which did not award fantasy points.2. Then give the points to Meachem, since he scored the TD.
Like what?
Like when an offensive lineman recovers a fumble and scores a TD. I'd guess that less than 1% of fantasy leagues even have the option of awarding those points.
 
This is why it should be scored as a defensive TD. You can't have a TD that is not awarded fantasy points.
1. Why not? There have been numerous NFL TDs which did not award fantasy points.2. Then give the points to Meachem, since he scored the TD.
Like what? This play is awarded a defensive TD in all my leagues.
Why would you do that? The defense wasn't on the field.Here is what MFL said...........

1. How is the Fumble Recovery TD after an Interception in the Saints game being scored?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: At the end of the first half, Kareem More of the Redskins intercepted a pass from Drew Brees of the Saints. During the interception return, Moore proceeded to fumble the ball, and then Robert Meachem of the Saints recovered the fumble and ran 43 yards for a TD.

This play is scored as a 43 yard "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" for Robert Meachem. If your league wants Meachem to receive the points for this touchdown, then you'll need to make sure the "Offensive Fumble Recovery TD" rule is defined in your scoring rules for the WR position.

This play is NOT scored as a Defensive Fumble Recovery TD for the Saints Team Defense position, since their defensive unit was not on the field during that play. If your league wants to score this play differently than how it shows up in the stats, then your commissioner would need to use the "For Commissioners > Adjust Scores and Standings > Player Score Adjuster" screen to add or subtract points to Meachem or the Saints Defense as needed.

Note that for what it is worth, the last time this type of touchdown occurred was 6 years ago in 2003 when the Buccaneers threw an Interception, which was then fumbled and then Keenan McCardell recovered it an ran it in for a TD. So this type of play is very rare, but it was scored the same way the last time it happened.
So MFL scored the play incorrectly and Sportsline scored it correctly.What if the Saints had regained the ball back at their own 10-yard line? Would it then have been 1st and 10 or would it have been 3rd and 40?
No, Sportsline is wrong and MFL is right. I'll keep saying that as long as people keep posting Sportsline's BS. The Saints defense was on the sidelines during the play. What if there had been 3 changes of possession? It makes no sense to award points to the defense if they weren't on the field. It's as simple as that. Also, it wasn't a rushing td for Meachem, nor was it a reception TD for him, so he's SOL also.
 
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I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.

The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.

I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.
I don't think you're reading it correctly. MFL's description does not distinguish between fumbles recovered from the player's own team or recovered from the opponent.True, it says "For example, if a Running Back fumbles..." -- but they could have just as easily written "For example, if a linebacker fumbles...". It's just an example.
Try reading the entire quoted portion, how do explain away this part "and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball". It clearly states that it only covers offensive fumbles recovered by a player on the same team as the player who fumbled. Am I missing something here?
Yes. You're missing the words "For example". They provided one example out of numerous possible examples that they could have mentioned. It has nothing to do with the rule itself!If it had said, "For example, if Adrian Peterson fumbles", would you complain to MFL because Adrian Peterson didn't fumble on that play??
No, in fact I am totally disregarding the example, because all I needed to read was the first two sentences. And I quote again - "This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team." I pasted MFL's entire description for informational purposes and so that I wouldn't be accused of only posting part of the description.Now tell me how; "This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team." could possibly mean that an offensive player from one team who strips a defensive player from another team and returns it for a touchdown is credited with an "Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdown?

 
Just my .02 but once there is a change of possession, the team on the field becomes the defensive team. Regardless that Brees was playing safety on the play (just kidding) Meacham's rip for six was a defensive takeaway and TD. I know it was a crazy play but I don't think the explanation is all that complicated.
Do you realize that if you continue with this thought, there can never be a defensive TD. With your logic, the following chain would be true1. Change of possession.

2. Team that was on offense is now on defense.

3. Team that was on defense is now on offense.

4. The safety that then intercepted the pass and has become an offense player has now scored.

So, no defense TD per your thought.

 
The problem I see with the MFL scoring now is that they are giving the New Orleans D/ST credit for the fumble recovery on the play. If you're going to do that, then you need to credit the TD as well.
I think their stance on this is explained as follows:1. When a change of possession occurs, the team that had been on offense becomes the defense and the team that had been on defense becomes the offense. The rule stating this was referenced earlier in the thread.

2. When the interception occurred, the Redskins became the offense and the Saints became the defense.

3. Thus, when Meachem made the tackle, forced the fumble, and recovered the fumble, he is considered to have been on defense. This is why those could be considered defensive plays resulting in fantasy points credited to the Saints defense.

4. Upon the fumble recovery, the Saints became the offense and the Redskins became the defense. Thus, when Meachem scored the TD, it was an offensive fumble recovery TD, not a defensive TD. Hence, no fantasy points are credited to the Saints defense.

5. I believe that normally, the fact that the defensive player is considered to have become an offensive player upon change of possession is ignored for TDs. That is, I think they figure the player is a defensive player, and thus the defense should be credited with the TD, not the offense (which for fantasy purposes means there would be no credit for such TDs). But in this case, the "defender" who scored the TD is actually an offensive player. Thus, it does make sense that the points would not be credited to the defense.

I know various leagues and sites are scoring it in different ways. IMO the logical way this play should be scored is as follows:

1. The Saints defense does not deserve credit for anything (tackle, forced fumble, fumble recovery, or TD).

2. Whether or not Meachem deserves credit for any or all of those things depends on league scoring (i.e., whether or not leagues are set up to reward individuals for tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and/or offensive fumble recovery TDs).
#1 bolded is horribly incorrect.
 
I just sent a support ticket to MFL to try and find out why Meachem is getting any points at all for this play in my league. By their definition of an offensive fumble recovery touchdown, if you use that scoring option, it should not award points.

The following has been copied and pasted directly from MFL's All Supported Positions and Scoring Rules web page.

Number of Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdowns

"This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team. For example, if a Running Back fumbles at the 1 yard line right before scoring a TD, and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball at the 1 yard line and advances to the endzone for a TD, then it is considered an Offensive fumble recovery TD."

If I'm reading this correctly, since Meachem recovered a fumble from an opponent, no points should be awarded.

I don't want to get into a nit picky semantic argument about the play itself. I'm only commenting on MFL's handling of it when they have clearly defined what that scoring option means.
I don't think you're reading it correctly. MFL's description does not distinguish between fumbles recovered from the player's own team or recovered from the opponent.True, it says "For example, if a Running Back fumbles..." -- but they could have just as easily written "For example, if a linebacker fumbles...". It's just an example.
Try reading the entire quoted portion, how do explain away this part "and then a Wide Receiver on the same team recovers the ball". It clearly states that it only covers offensive fumbles recovered by a player on the same team as the player who fumbled. Am I missing something here?
Yes. You're missing the words "For example". They provided one example out of numerous possible examples that they could have mentioned. It has nothing to do with the rule itself!If it had said, "For example, if Adrian Peterson fumbles", would you complain to MFL because Adrian Peterson didn't fumble on that play??
No, in fact I am totally disregarding the example, because all I needed to read was the first two sentences. And I quote again - "This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team." I pasted MFL's entire description for informational purposes and so that I wouldn't be accused of only posting part of the description.Now tell me how; "This is the number of offensive fumble recoveries that are returned all the way for a TD. This ONLY includes fumbles that are recovered by a player's own team." could possibly mean that an offensive player from one team who strips a defensive player from another team and returns it for a touchdown is credited with an "Offensive Fumble Recovery Touchdown?
I think it's pretty obvious what they mean, though they worded the description poorly. I believe what they mean is that if a player whose team began the play on offense recovers a fumble for a TD, it is an offensive fumble recovery TD.
 
The problem I see with the MFL scoring now is that they are giving the New Orleans D/ST credit for the fumble recovery on the play. If you're going to do that, then you need to credit the TD as well.
I think their stance on this is explained as follows:1. When a change of possession occurs, the team that had been on offense becomes the defense and the team that had been on defense becomes the offense. The rule stating this was referenced earlier in the thread.

2. When the interception occurred, the Redskins became the offense and the Saints became the defense.

3. Thus, when Meachem made the tackle, forced the fumble, and recovered the fumble, he is considered to have been on defense. This is why those could be considered defensive plays resulting in fantasy points credited to the Saints defense.

4. Upon the fumble recovery, the Saints became the offense and the Redskins became the defense. Thus, when Meachem scored the TD, it was an offensive fumble recovery TD, not a defensive TD. Hence, no fantasy points are credited to the Saints defense.

5. I believe that normally, the fact that the defensive player is considered to have become an offensive player upon change of possession is ignored for TDs. That is, I think they figure the player is a defensive player, and thus the defense should be credited with the TD, not the offense (which for fantasy purposes means there would be no credit for such TDs). But in this case, the "defender" who scored the TD is actually an offensive player. Thus, it does make sense that the points would not be credited to the defense.

I know various leagues and sites are scoring it in different ways. IMO the logical way this play should be scored is as follows:

1. The Saints defense does not deserve credit for anything (tackle, forced fumble, fumble recovery, or TD).

2. Whether or not Meachem deserves credit for any or all of those things depends on league scoring (i.e., whether or not leagues are set up to reward individuals for tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and/or offensive fumble recovery TDs).
#1 bolded is horribly incorrect.
You got that right !!! That might be the stupidest thing ever to come from Sportsline, but I can't say that because of those who do their fantasy analysis are even more stupid.
 
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The problem I see with the MFL scoring now is that they are giving the New Orleans D/ST credit for the fumble recovery on the play. If you're going to do that, then you need to credit the TD as well.
I think their stance on this is explained as follows:1. When a change of possession occurs, the team that had been on offense becomes the defense and the team that had been on defense becomes the offense. The rule stating this was referenced earlier in the thread.

2. When the interception occurred, the Redskins became the offense and the Saints became the defense.

3. Thus, when Meachem made the tackle, forced the fumble, and recovered the fumble, he is considered to have been on defense. This is why those could be considered defensive plays resulting in fantasy points credited to the Saints defense.

4. Upon the fumble recovery, the Saints became the offense and the Redskins became the defense. Thus, when Meachem scored the TD, it was an offensive fumble recovery TD, not a defensive TD. Hence, no fantasy points are credited to the Saints defense.

5. I believe that normally, the fact that the defensive player is considered to have become an offensive player upon change of possession is ignored for TDs. That is, I think they figure the player is a defensive player, and thus the defense should be credited with the TD, not the offense (which for fantasy purposes means there would be no credit for such TDs). But in this case, the "defender" who scored the TD is actually an offensive player. Thus, it does make sense that the points would not be credited to the defense.

I know various leagues and sites are scoring it in different ways. IMO the logical way this play should be scored is as follows:

1. The Saints defense does not deserve credit for anything (tackle, forced fumble, fumble recovery, or TD).

2. Whether or not Meachem deserves credit for any or all of those things depends on league scoring (i.e., whether or not leagues are set up to reward individuals for tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and/or offensive fumble recovery TDs).
#1 bolded is horribly incorrect.
No it's not. See post #118, which contains the text of the rule.
 

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