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Megyn Kelly (1 Viewer)

Ruling on dressing up as an Indian for Halloween?  My old lady was going to be my Tonto, we enjoy the classics.

 
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T J said:
Wrong. There are those, me being one, that does not feel it is definitely racist. What about the show Neighbors? Black-ish? Who even cares about this stuff? I am so sick of people getting worked up over the stupidest stuff. BFD a white person went blackface for a Halloween costume. Whoopee. Not racist.  It's this stuff right here that is the biggest divide I our country. Liberals who have their feelings hurt at every turn, and those who don't. It's really that simple. It isn't racism to throw a jab at a person's race. 

We clearly have different definitions of racism and before you break out the Webster's, there is the literal and then there is the practical application of the word. From a practical standpoint, I don't see racism in dressing blackface. I consider it a who cares. If a black guy wanted to dress KKK, who cares. A muslin wanted to dress as a rabbi, who cares. People's feelings get hurt far too easily, and I think in large part because the media tells them to, and it sucks for America. I genuinely believe every word I just wrote. No schtick. 
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White people saying what should or should not be offensive to black people/declaring racism to be no big deal is honestly one of my favorite things on the interwebs.   And this is an absolute classic of the genre, somehow both timeless and inventive.  Comparing a white person in blackface to a Muslim dressing as a rabbi?  *Italian chef kissing fingers*

Also we need an Italian chef kissing his fingers emoji

 
TobiasFunke said:
White people saying what should or should not be offensive to black people/declaring racism to be no big deal is honestly one of my favorite things on the interwebs.   And this is an absolute classic of the genre, somehow both timeless and inventive.  Comparing a white person in blackface to a Muslim dressing as a rabbi?  *Italian chef kissing fingers*

Also we need an Italian chef kissing his fingers emoji
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Not sure I get your point but I don't see a difference. At all. It all falls in the "who cares" category to me.

And I do love me some Italian, so good reference. Now I'm hungry.

 
[scooter] said:
Excuse me, what "working definition" are you talking about? Because it seems to me that you just made it up to suit your argument.

For example, here's Wikipedia's definition of blackface ("predominantly non-black performers").

Here's Dictionary.com (no mention of race at all).

Here's Merriam Webster (again, no mention of race).

The facts don't support your made-up definition.

"Blackface" is about the portrayal, NOT about the skin color of the person doing it. The fact that you keep insisting that it can ONLY apply to people who are 100% white is, quite honestly, weird. I don't think you're racist, but you're taking a position that is kind of condescending and paternalistic towards black people (as if only YOU get to define what blackface is, who gets or doesn't get to do it, and how blacks should feel about it).

The fact that you could look at two performers who wore darker makeup and decided that one of them was racist and one of them wasn't, based solely on what you knew about the ethnic heritage of the two performers, is just a little bit ignorant.
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Okay. Good luck. 

 
T J said:
Wrong. There are those, me being one, that does not feel it is definitely racist. What about the show Neighbors? Black-ish? Who even cares about this stuff? I am so sick of people getting worked up over the stupidest stuff. BFD a white person went blackface for a Halloween costume. Whoopee. Not racist.  It's this stuff right here that is the biggest divide I our country. Liberals who have their feelings hurt at every turn, and those who don't. It's really that simple. It isn't racism to throw a jab at a person's race. 

We clearly have different definitions of racism and before you break out the Webster's, there is the literal and then there is the practical application of the word. From a practical standpoint, I don't see racism in dressing blackface. I consider it a who cares. If a black guy wanted to dress KKK, who cares. A muslin wanted to dress as a rabbi, who cares. People's feelings get hurt far too easily, and I think in large part because the media tells them to, and it sucks for America. I genuinely believe every word I just wrote. No schtick. 
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Okay.  Good luck. 

 
T J said:
Not sure I get your point but I don't see a difference. At all. It all falls in the "who cares" category to me.

And I do love me some Italian, so good reference. Now I'm hungry.
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I'm going out to have some Italian on my lunch hour.  I'll wait to eat when I get back.  

 
T J said:
Not sure I get your point but I don't see a difference. At all. It all falls in the "who cares" category to me.

And I do love me some Italian, so good reference. Now I'm hungry.
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The point is that you're ignoring context.  There are clearly stated historical reasons why a white person using blackface is different than the other things you listed.  This is a pretty common thing in these discussions. "How come black rappers can use the N word but nobody else can?" "Why is there a black history month but no white history month?"  It's all the same basic principle- ignoring context in order to lob allegations of unfairness or to call people "SJWs" or whatever.

When it comes to treatment of historically oppressed minorities, I think a good rule is to listen to what the oppressed minorities think about a particular issue and adjust accordingly, rather than telling them how they should feel.  So if a bunch of members of a minority group (it's never going to be unanimous, nor does it have to be) tell us something is offensive to them or upsets them, there's really no reason to keep doing it unless we have some incredibly important policy reason that overrides their feelings.

Just my opinion, of course.

 
pantherclub said:
Not really denying that at all but what is wrong with at least talking about it?  She even put it in context.  I guess I am a dummy and dont see what the big deal is.   I think this is probably more of an excuse NBC can use to pull her show.  If she had the numbers I doubt this would be a big deal. 
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This is correct. I saw her comment and thought it was surprisingly ignorant. But we're all surprisingly ignorant about things now and then. That one comment did not merit her termination, IMO.

But if her ratings are bad and they need an excuse, I suppose it will do.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
This is correct. I saw her comment and thought it was surprisingly ignorant. But we're all surprisingly ignorant about things now and then. That one comment did not merit her termination, IMO.

But if her ratings are bad and they need an excuse, I suppose it will do.
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I still cannot believe 69 million she left with.  

 
TobiasFunke said:
The point is that you're ignoring context.  There are clearly stated historical reasons why a white person using blackface is different than the other things you listed.  This is a pretty common thing in these discussions. "How come black rappers can use the N word but nobody else can?" "Why is there a black history month but no white history month?"  It's all the same basic principle- ignoring context in order to lob allegations of unfairness or to call people "SJWs" or whatever.

When it comes to treatment of historically oppressed minorities, I think a good rule is to listen to what the oppressed minorities think about a particular issue and adjust accordingly, rather than telling them how they should feel.  So if a bunch of members of a minority group (it's never going to be unanimous, nor does it have to be) tell us something is offensive to them or upsets them, there's really no reason to keep doing it unless we have some incredibly important policy reason that overrides their feelings.

Just my opinion, of course.
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I hear you, but it’s my opinion that you only get to play the “oppressed” card for so long and that time has passed. I consider all equals already so this stuff seems stupid to me, and yes, I do believe that there is distinct reverse racism in our society and it’s not only tolerated, but somewhat celebrated.

As an aside, curious what the take is on a straight person going as Caitlyn Jenner? Or some transvestite? I personally see zero problem with it.

 
T J said:
It all falls in the "who cares" category to me.
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Key words are in bold. You can see someone in blackface and not be offended. I can wrap my head around that view. It makes some sense. But, then you ask "who cares?" Um, a lot of people care. That's the whole point. Different people care about different things. I used to have opinions about what other people's opinions should be. I don't do that as much as I used to. Now I prefer to understand that they do find something offensive, even if I don't, and think about what that means for how I act. There's a never ending list of things I don't care about, but I also try to consider that others do care.

 
Henry Ford said:
If you don't think it's racist to dress up like Diana Ross in blackface, there's a pretty good chance you are either kind of "lower case 'r' racist" (ignorant of a subject that black people don't have the luxury of being ignorant about, but when you learn about it you'll probably change your mind) or kind of "upper case 'R' Racist" (you know all about the issues, but don't care, or don't have any interest in learning because black people shouldn't be able to steer the conversation about something just because it's horribly offensive to them or you like offending black people.)
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That doesn't fit any definition of 'racist' I'm familiar with. That's just ignorance. (And maybe privilege.)

I learned what blackface was (and that it was taboo) when I watched an episode of Diff'rent Strokes as a kid. (It could have been a different show; I'm not 100% sure.) The little white kid in it did a school performance in blackface without knowing what it was -- somebody else put him in costume -- and it was a big deal that viewers were made to understand was very inappropriate.

I'm not sure if I've encountered any blackface references since then. No memorable ones, apparently. If I hadn't seen that TV show, I might have no idea what blackface is to this day. I don't think that would make me racist. It would just mean that I don't get enough sitcom-watching in my daily routine.

 
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T J said:
I hear you, but it’s my opinion that you only get to play the “oppressed” card for so long and that time has passed. I consider all equals already so this stuff seems stupid to me, and yes, I do believe that there is distinct reverse racism in our society and it’s not only tolerated, but somewhat celebrated.

As an aside, curious what the take is on a straight person going as Caitlyn Jenner? Or some transvestite? I personally see zero problem with it.

  
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There are literally active investigations into racial discrimination by businesses. Lenders have been fined by DOJ for discrimination in lending practices this decade. GOP members of Congress and their supporters are running ads for this election that clearly play to racial fears and prejudices. And I could go on and on and on with examples.  In addition, past discriminatory practices have an enormous impact on racial disparities today (here's a short cutesy video I like to share explaining one way this has happened). So you're just flat out wrong about the bolded. If you're genuinely interested I'm happy to discuss further some time.

I don't think I'd have any problem with a straight person dressing as Caitlyn Jenner, but I'd want to see what the trans community thinks too.  And a straight person can't dress up as a transvestite . Transvestite is a term that refers to a man who enjoys wearing women's clothing.  If you are a man and choose to wear women's clothes for fun, you are a transvestite.

 
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Henry Ford said:
That's a really interesting question.  I honestly would put it into the same category as the Zulu parade in New Orleans - he's using "whiteface" as a political satire statement the same way that parade uses "blackface" (worn mostly by black riders, but also white riders) as a political satire statement, and I think it dances on a very thin line.  
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Yeah , if you aren't from New Orleans and you see a Zulu parade, one might think WTF

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
This is correct. I saw her comment and thought it was surprisingly ignorant. But we're all surprisingly ignorant about things now and then. That one comment did not merit her termination, IMO.

But if her ratings are bad and they need an excuse, I suppose it will do.
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If it's not a fire-able offense it's not a racist comment.  At least that's the way I understand the firing is being portrayed.  And if race is being used this way it's a shame because that does about as much damage as just being plain racist.   

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
That doesn't fit any definition of 'racist' I'm familiar with. That's just ignorance. (And maybe privilege.)

I learned what blackface was (and that it was taboo) when I watched an episode of Diff'rent Strokes as a kid. (It could have been a different show; I'm not 100% sure.) The little white kid in it did a school performance in blackface without knowing what it was -- somebody else put him in costume -- and it was a big deal that viewers were made to understand was very inappropriate.

I'm not sure if I've encountered any blackface references since then. No memorable ones, apparently. If I hadn't seen that TV show, I might have no idea what blackface is to this day. I don't think that would make me racist. It would just mean that I don't get enough sitcom-watching in my daily routine.
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You missed the Ted Danson uproar?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
It sounds vaguely familiar now that you mention it. It wasn't in my active recall a few minutes ago.
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Its got to be over 20 years ago now, so no real surprise it does not spring to memory.  He was dating Whoppie Goldberg.  He was hosting some roast.  He showed up in blackface and availed himself of the "N" word multiple times in his monolog.  It set back his career for a decade.  He went full Al Jolson in his get up from the pronounced lips to the Jazz Singer tux.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/ted-danson-appears-in-black-face-during-new-york-friars-news-photo/97331907

Friars Club roasts always received special dispensation up until then.  He was roasting Whoopie who took it in stride, but that did not provide him with cover.

 
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Now that I've read the thread...

I don't think the examples scooter provided were wrong. In my view, tastefully dressing up as someone else to do an impersonation is okay even if part of the costume involves darkening one's skin a bit. (Is all darkening bad, or just darkening to resemble an African-American? Would an Irish person dressing up as a Latino, or as a Native American, or even as a tan Italian be okay because of the historical differences involved?)

On that issue, it might not be very hard to get me to change my perspective. I haven't given the subject much thought, and I haven't read any rationales for the opposing view. It might take just a few sentences and a few moments of reflection for me to think that the examples in scooter's links are bad and wrong.

It would be much harder to get me to sign on to Cornell West's definition of racism if it includes well-meaning thoughts affected by unintentional ignorance. That doesn't comport with common usage in my experience, and I doubt it's in any reputable dictionary (though I haven't looked). If Mr. West is arguing for an extension of common usage, it's an extension I don't think is appropriate. I think racism needs a mens rea, otherwise it gets watered down to a point where it no longer has any moral force.

I don't want to redefine 'racism' so that it's no longer immoral.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
Now that I've read the thread...

I don't think the examples scooter provided were wrong. In my view, tastefully dressing up as someone else to do an impersonation is okay even if part of the costume has to do with darkening one's skin a bit. (Is all darkening bad, or just darkening to resemble an African-American? Would an Irish person dressing up as a Latino, or as a Native American, or even as a tan Italian be okay because of the historical differences involved?)

On that issue, it might not be very hard to get me to change my perspective. I haven't given the subject much thought, and I haven't read any rationales for the opposing view. It might take just a few sentences and a few moments of reflection for me to think that the examples in scooter's links are bad and wrong.

It would be much harder to get me to sign on to Cornell West's definition of racism if it includes well-meaning thoughts affected by unintentional ignorance. That doesn't comport with common usage in my experience, and I doubt it's in any reputable dictionary (though I haven't looked). If Mr. West is arguing for an extension of common usage, it's an extension I don't think is appropriate. I think racism needs a mens rea, otherwise it gets watered down to a point where it no longer has any moral force.

I don't want to redefine 'racism' so that it's no longer immoral.
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I think redefinition of racism as a concept as amoral rather than immoral but leading to lots of immoral results is a reasonable step toward people being willing to change.  Otherwise you get a pretty expected knee-jerk reaction of "waitaminite I'm not a racist" instead of a conversation.  It's how we realize our own racism - much of which we will never rid ourselves of - while still trying to act better in society.

Racism as a concept of institutionalized behaviors, activities, and attitudes virtually requires well-meaning thoughts and actions by unintentional ignorance.

 
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I have to relay a personal anecdote that is very embarrassing to me. Not necessarily anything to do with black face but in a similar vein.

I used to work in a residential treatment facility for emotionally disturbed teens for almost 20 years. My partner at work, and best friend, happened to be African American. We together supervised a residence that housed 16 kids. We were co-commissioners of our work FFL, worked out together, played in several recreational flag football and "Y" b-ball leagues, and attended each others family events. 

I was in about my mid 20's and at times clowned around with the residents. On several occasions I would walk around saying-in an exaggerated manner, "MAMMY!, OH MAMMY!". At the time I had no idea-or at least, didn't recall-where this came from or where I had heard it. I just thought it sounded really funny when said a certain way. Always got a lot of laughs from the residents, most of whom were African-American and many of whom were from inner city Buffalo and Rochester.

After doing this numerous times my partner pulled me aside and told me this was offensive and racist. He said he knew I was saying this out of ignorance and obviously didn't know it's history. I was pretty horrified, thanked him, and apologized profusely. Obviously never said it again. It never occurred to me to blame this on PC. 

I don't understand the people who defend behavior like that I also engaged in-albeit unknowingly. Blaming this stuff on PC is simply weak rationalization designed to salvage ego. 

 
Ranethe said:
I have to relay a personal anecdote that is very embarrassing to me. Not necessarily anything to do with black face but in a similar vein.

I used to work in a residential treatment facility for emotionally disturbed teens for almost 20 years. My partner at work, and best friend, happened to be African American. We together supervised a residence that housed 16 kids. We were co-commissioners of our work FFL, worked out together, played in several recreational flag football and "Y" b-ball leagues, and attended each others family events. 

I was in about my mid 20's and at times clowned around with the residents. On several occasions I would walk around saying-in an exaggerated manner, "MAMMY!, OH MAMMY!". At the time I had no idea-or at least, didn't recall-where this came from or where I had heard it. I just thought it sounded really funny when said a certain way. Always got a lot of laughs from the residents, most of whom were African-American and many of whom were from inner city Buffalo and Rochester.

After doing this numerous times my partner pulled me aside and told me this was offensive and racist. He said he knew I was saying this out of ignorance and obviously didn't know it's history. I was pretty horrified, thanked him, and apologized profusely. Obviously never said it again. It never occurred to me to blame this on PC. 

I don't understand the people who defend behavior like that I also engaged in-albeit unknowingly. Blaming this stuff on PC is simply weak rationalization designed to salvage ego. 
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how is that racist? wtf am i missing?

 
pantherclub said:
how is that racist? wtf am i missing?
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It's a racial caricature of African-American women that was prominent during and post slavery.  You could buy everything from Mammy dolls to Mammy ashtrays.  The notion was that the "Mammy" was a perfectly content, even jovial, domesticated house slave.  Grateful for her white family, but tough and stern with her own black children.

 
General Malaise said:
It's a racial caricature of African-American women that was prominent during and post slavery.  You could buy everything from Mammy dolls to Mammy ashtrays.  The notion was that the "Mammy" was a perfectly content, even jovial, domesticated house slave.  Grateful for her white family, but tough and stern with her own black children.
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It was also, I believe, Al Jolson's signature song. 

 
Ranethe said:
I have to relay a personal anecdote that is very embarrassing to me. Not necessarily anything to do with black face but in a similar vein.

I used to work in a residential treatment facility for emotionally disturbed teens for almost 20 years. My partner at work, and best friend, happened to be African American. We together supervised a residence that housed 16 kids. We were co-commissioners of our work FFL, worked out together, played in several recreational flag football and "Y" b-ball leagues, and attended each others family events. 

I was in about my mid 20's and at times clowned around with the residents. On several occasions I would walk around saying-in an exaggerated manner, "MAMMY!, OH MAMMY!". At the time I had no idea-or at least, didn't recall-where this came from or where I had heard it. I just thought it sounded really funny when said a certain way. Always got a lot of laughs from the residents, most of whom were African-American and many of whom were from inner city Buffalo and Rochester.

After doing this numerous times my partner pulled me aside and told me this was offensive and racist. He said he knew I was saying this out of ignorance and obviously didn't know it's history. I was pretty horrified, thanked him, and apologized profusely. Obviously never said it again. It never occurred to me to blame this on PC. 

I don't understand the people who defend behavior like that I also engaged in-albeit unknowingly. Blaming this stuff on PC is simply weak rationalization designed to salvage ego. 
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Good for you.  That's ideally how things should go.  We should accept (the statements of someone who is trying to educate), consider (what the statements mean), and if warranted change (our behavior.)

 
Jackstraw said:
Full disclosure: I made my face black as part of a Bob Marley Halloween costume in approximately 1985. I unpainted my face about 15 minutes later after my first run in with some black folks. 15 years old. 

Hint: They are really not that fond of it. Although they were pretty cool after they talked to me about it and I apologized immediately and said I would take it off.  
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I went to college in the deep south, small school with 5 fraternities and perhaps 5-6% black students.  One of the fraternities was verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry southern, dressed up in confederate garb for formal dances, worshiped Robert E. Lee, confederate flags hung with pride, etc.  On bid days, they would have their pledges wear afro wigs and dress in black face.  They all thought it was a hoot.  

Well, they did until one year when a very outspoken black student - who today is a very successful professor and writer - alerted the local media about the bid day shenanigans.  The local news arrived and filmed the white students in black face and wigs, trying to shield themselves from the camera crews.  The black student confronted the fraternity and it got ugly quick.  Many of the fraternity brothers were caught on camera yelling the "N" word at him and it was a bad bad look for our college.     

This was 1994.  I find it astonishing that in 2018 - almost 25 years later - we have people right here wondering why white people in dressing in black face would be offensive to black people.  

 
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General Malaise said:
I went to college in the deep south, small school with 5 fraternities and perhaps 5-6% black students.  One of the fraternities was verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry southern, dressed up in confederate garb for formal dances, worshiped Robert E. Lee, confederate flags hung with pride, etc.  On bid days, they would have their pledges wear afro wigs and dress in black face.  They all thought it was a hoot.  

Well, they did until one year when a very outspoken black student who today is a very successful professor and writer alerted the local media about the bid day shenanigans.  The local news arrived and filmed the white students in black face and wigs, trying to shield themselves from the camera crews.  The black student confronted the fraternity and it got ugly quick.  Many of the fraternity brothers were caught on camera yelling the "N" word at him and it was a bad bad look for our college.     

This was 1994.  I find it astonishing that in 2018 - almost 25 years later - we have people right here wondering why white people in dressing in black face would be offensive to black people.  
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Was it the DKEs?

 
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I wonder what would be the reaction, or would have been the reaction, had Harry Belefonte covered himself in pancake, dyed his hair red, put on some freckles and sang Danny boy, as a good natured tribute of course.

 
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