Michael Lombardi (1 Viewer)

[cobalt_27]

I never had any reason to dislike the guy. But, what's the back story here? Why is he loathed so universally here and elsewhere?TIA

 

[MAC_32]

Some things Bellichik had Lombardi do while he was in Cleveland have been typecast as Lombardi issues rather than Bellichik issues.Bellichik and Al Davis had lousy drafts while Lombardi was in Player Personnel, so Lombardi gets blamed.He has not worked in a NFL front office in 5 years, so people automatically think it's because he doesn't know what he is doing instead of thinking he may just be waiting for the right role and not just settling for any role.Since he is in the media and posts about players people have access to every single one of his wrong player assessments. Every organization is wrong about a lot of players, but the public doesn't know who and why because that information is kept confidential for the most part.Among Cleveland fans I am probably their biggest critic and it's evident by the posts directed at me from Cleveland fans who get pissed anytime I have something negative to say about the team...and the level of hate directed at Lombardi just has me shaking my head. It just stinks of people parrotting certain local media people that don't like him because of how his tenure went when he was here two decades ago. Yeah, I have some concerns about him and the way this front office is being built, but the level of venom being spewed for the hire? Ridiculous. Although, to be fair, the way most are reacting to the Lombardi hire is very similar to how I responded to the Weeden pick...so I probably shouldn't be too quick to judge.

 

[cobalt_27]

Some things Bellichik had Lombardi do while he was in Cleveland have been typecast as Lombardi issues rather than Bellichik issues.Bellichik and Al Davis had lousy drafts while Lombardi was in Player Personnel, so Lombardi gets blamed.He has not worked in a NFL front office in 5 years, so people automatically think it's because he doesn't know what he is doing instead of thinking he may just be waiting for the right role and not just settling for any role.Since he is in the media and posts about players people have access to every single one of his wrong player assessments. Every organization is wrong about a lot of players, but the public doesn't know who and why because that information is kept confidential for the most part.Among Cleveland fans I am probably their biggest critic and it's evident by the posts directed at me from Cleveland fans who get pissed anytime I have something negative to say about the team...and the level of hate directed at Lombardi just has me shaking my head. It just stinks of people parrotting certain local media people that don't like him because of how his tenure went when he was here two decades ago. Yeah, I have some concerns about him and the way this front office is being built, but the level of venom being spewed for the hire? Ridiculous. Although, to be fair, the way most are reacting to the Lombardi hire is very similar to how I responded to the Weeden pick...so I probably shouldn't be too quick to judge.

Seems like a pretty balanced assessment to me.My "bull####" radar goes up anytime the group-think gets so overwhelmingly loud on one side of the equation. Sounds to me like this is a case of everyone rallying around a story of why they dislike Lombardi, as opposed to really understanding the fundamentals of why he might be a poor hire (and miss on why he might be a great hire, or at least a good hire).

 

[Limp Ditka]

He does a weekly segment on one of the Chicago sports radio shows. I'd much rather listen to him, who's been there, than the talking heads / glorified reporters that ESPN throws out there. He's one of my favorites when it comes to talking about the NFL as a whole.

 

[menobrown]

I never had any reason to dislike the guy. But, what's the back story here? Why is he loathed so universally here and elsewhere?TIA

I did not know he was loathed universally. I've enjoyed listening to him the past few years on this various media outlets but especially the podcast he does with Bill Simmons. He's got background with Bill Walsh, Davis and Bellichick so he's got some really interesting background and he makes for a good football conversationalist. Not sure any of that makes him a good decision maker and after years of listening to him I'm not convinced either but I'd think at a minimum if you can take a guy who learned under some of the best as he did he's a good guy to have in the room. Just probably would not like him being the final decision maker.As for Cleveland fans I think it's understandable and if I was Haslam I'd not have hired him and here's why. I'm not a Cleveland fan but I imagine they are excited about Haslam or at least excited about new ownership. Just by virtue of the ownership change it should have reinvigorated the fan base. I think I had that going for me I'd choose not to soil this feeling of "new" and "hope" by bringing in a part of the failed past.

 

[Wadsworth]

Bellichik and Al Davis had lousy drafts while Lombardi was in Player Personnel, so Lombardi gets blamed.

I think that pretty much sums up why many people are surprised. Lombardi might not be to blame for those drafts but that is all outsiders have to judge him.

 

[Raider Nation]

There was a lot of he said/he said about Lombardi's tenure in Oakland. This is a pretty good summary:

In 2006, Art Shell called-out personnel director Michael Lombardi and banned Lombardi from the practice field for, "rooting against the team." After the 2-14 season, Shell was let go, as was Lombardi as personnel director for the Raiders.As Lombardi's last move on Draft Day in 2007, he orchestrated the trade of WR Randy Moss to the New England Patriots, and the acquisitions of QB Josh McCown and WR Mike Williams from the USC offense of new coach, Lane Kiffin.On one hand, Lombardi told Davis that Moss couldn't run and even said the same thing to any dope in the media willing to listen to his attempts to protect his reputation. After all, that termination would be Lombardi's fifth by an NFL team. Lombardi had to do something to protect his name. According to Davis, Lombardi would commit tampering by telling his former colleague from the Browns, Bill Belichik, that Moss could run.And what better way for Lombardi to protect his name than to sabotage Davis' attempts to rebuild a wayward franchise? Once Lombardi was gone, there would be no one left for Al to blame.Turns out, Lombardi wasn't the scape-goat for Al Davis. Davis was the scapegoat for Lombardi.Meanwhile, Lombardi had a willing partner in *crime* in Lane Kiffin who clearly had bought the media line that Davis had *lost it* and thus attempted undermine Davis and bring in friends and family (Mike Williams, while Kiffin would attempted to fire Rob Ryan and hire his dad, Monte).

 

[MAC_32]

Bellichik and Al Davis had lousy drafts while Lombardi was in Player Personnel, so Lombardi gets blamed.

I think that pretty much sums up why many people are surprised. Lombardi might not be to blame for those drafts but that is all outsiders have to judge him.

Having listened and read a lot of Lombardi the last few years I would be very surprised if his stamp of approval was on the Jamarcus pick. A lot was made of the Randy Moss trade and issues with Art Shell too. I think a very reasonable cause for all of this was a lot of disagreement between him and Al. Did Lombardi handle the issue well? No, it'd have been best for everything to stay internal, which obviously didn't happen.This is one of my concerns with Lombardi, how he will handle internal disagreements. I'm willing to give him some rope though as I don't see Haslam and Banner like I did the last few years of Al, Al had completely lost it, I don't like some characteristics about Banner but in regards to his decision making I feel comfortable saying it's intact. When your boss makes lousy decisions every day it can wear on you as it wouldn't surprise me happened with Al. Cautiously optimistic it will be a different working environment here.Edit: Raider beat me to the Moss and Shell comments, good details there for people unaware.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Bellichik and Al Davis had lousy drafts while Lombardi was in Player Personnel, so Lombardi gets blamed.

Even if you want to say he didn't make the picks, the picks were made based on his evaluations. If you take away all blame from Lombardi for what went wrong, then you also have to take away credit for anything that went right. So what exactly is his resume then?I've never in my life seen a major leadership hire by a franchise where the theme of the introductory press conference was "He's changed. Give him a chance". What a way to fire up the fans.

 

[drummer]

There was a lot of he said/he said about Lombardi's tenure in Oakland. This is a pretty good summary:

In 2006, Art Shell called-out personnel director Michael Lombardi and banned Lombardi from the practice field for, "rooting against the team." After the 2-14 season, Shell was let go, as was Lombardi as personnel director for the Raiders.As Lombardi's last move on Draft Day in 2007, he orchestrated the trade of WR Randy Moss to the New England Patriots, and the acquisitions of QB Josh McCown and WR Mike Williams from the USC offense of new coach, Lane Kiffin.On one hand, Lombardi told Davis that Moss couldn't run and even said the same thing to any dope in the media willing to listen to his attempts to protect his reputation. After all, that termination would be Lombardi's fifth by an NFL team. Lombardi had to do something to protect his name. According to Davis, Lombardi would commit tampering by telling his former colleague from the Browns, Bill Belichik, that Moss could run.And what better way for Lombardi to protect his name than to sabotage Davis' attempts to rebuild a wayward franchise? Once Lombardi was gone, there would be no one left for Al to blame.Turns out, Lombardi wasn't the scape-goat for Al Davis. Davis was the scapegoat for Lombardi.Meanwhile, Lombardi had a willing partner in *crime* in Lane Kiffin who clearly had bought the media line that Davis had *lost it* and thus attempted undermine Davis and bring in friends and family (Mike Williams, while Kiffin would attempted to fire Rob Ryan and hire his dad, Monte).

Is this from Tim "THAT'S NOT TRUE" Kawakami?Lombardi was a name in the hat when the 49ers were doing thier so-called GM search 2 years back. They had Trent Baalke in the bag all along.

 

[MAC_32]

Bellichik and Al Davis had lousy drafts while Lombardi was in Player Personnel, so Lombardi gets blamed.

Even if you want to say he didn't make the picks, the picks were made based on his evaluations. If you take away all blame from Lombardi for what went wrong, then you also have to take away credit for anything that went right. So what exactly is his resume then?I've never in my life seen a major leadership hire by a franchise where the theme of the introductory press conference was "He's changed. Give him a chance". What a way to fire up the fans.

Do you have access to his player evaluations from those drafts? what about war room discussions? or in roster construction? discussions of current personnel? potential free agents?The stamp of approval on those picks came from Bellichik and Al, Bellichik gave assignments to his staff and used some info given to him by the staff via those assignments but ultimately it was just information to him to make his decision. The information stream that led to those picks? That's between football people, and not types like us. Football people have glowing things to say about him from a player evaluation and roster construction perspective, there has to be a reason for that. I'm not giving Al any credit for any of the above, I couldn't imagine working for him. Is he fast? is he big? is he mean? Sign him. Had to be infuriating

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

When Lombardi actually wrote in-depth articles (he was on on nfpost.com when it launched) he had some pretty good draft insights, at least when assessing drafts in hindsight. He has never stood out to me as a TV analyst.There was also a short-lived 'net rage feud between he and Mike Florio, which was pretty amusing.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Has he really been fired 5 times??

 

[Bracie Smathers]

There was a lot of he said/he said about Lombardi's tenure in Oakland. This is a pretty good summary:

In 2006, Art Shell called-out personnel director Michael Lombardi and banned Lombardi from the practice field for, "rooting against the team." After the 2-14 season, Shell was let go, as was Lombardi as personnel director for the Raiders.As Lombardi's last move on Draft Day in 2007, he orchestrated the trade of WR Randy Moss to the New England Patriots, and the acquisitions of QB Josh McCown and WR Mike Williams from the USC offense of new coach, Lane Kiffin.On one hand, Lombardi told Davis that Moss couldn't run and even said the same thing to any dope in the media willing to listen to his attempts to protect his reputation. After all, that termination would be Lombardi's fifth by an NFL team. Lombardi had to do something to protect his name. According to Davis, Lombardi would commit tampering by telling his former colleague from the Browns, Bill Belichik, that Moss could run.And what better way for Lombardi to protect his name than to sabotage Davis' attempts to rebuild a wayward franchise? Once Lombardi was gone, there would be no one left for Al to blame.Turns out, Lombardi wasn't the scape-goat for Al Davis. Davis was the scapegoat for Lombardi.Meanwhile, Lombardi had a willing partner in *crime* in Lane Kiffin who clearly had bought the media line that Davis had *lost it* and thus attempted undermine Davis and bring in friends and family (Mike Williams, while Kiffin would attempted to fire Rob Ryan and hire his dad, Monte).

The above is so bizzare that I couldn't comment on it but then just yesterday I see this from PFT:My link

Tim Brown suggests “sabotage” by Bill Callahan in Super Bowl XXXVIIPosted by Mike Florio on January 21, 2013, 9:33 PM EST A decade ago, the Raiders’ fate in Super Bowl XXXVII ...... Tim Brown believes that the blame for the 48-21 loss to the Buccaneers should go to Oakland’s head coach.“We get our game plan for victory on Monday, and the game plan says we’re gonna run the ball,” Brown said Saturday on SiriusXM NFL Radio, which provided us with the audio. “We averaged 340 [pounds] on the offensive line, they averaged 280 [on the defensive line]. We’re all happy with that, everybody is excited. [We] tell Charlie Garner, ‘Look, you’re not gonna get too many carries, but at the end of the day we’re gonna get a victory. Tyrone Wheatley, Zack Crockett, let’s get ready to blow this thing up.’”According to Brown, coach Bill Callahan then “blew this thing up” on the Friday before the Super Bowl, changing the game plan from a run-heavy attack to an intent to “throw the ball 60 times.”“We all called it sabotage . . . because Callahan and [Tampa Bay coach Jon] Gruden were good friends,” Brown said. “And Callahan had a big problem with the Raiders, you know, hated the Raiders. You know, only came because Gruden made him come. Literally walked off the field on us a couple of times during the season when he first got there, the first couple years. So really he had become someone who was part of the staff but we just didn’t pay him any attention. Gruden leaves, he becomes the head coach. . . . It’s hard to say that the guy sabotaged the Super Bowl. You know, can you really say that? That can be my opinion, but I can’t say for a fact that that’s what his plan was, to sabotage the Super Bowl. He hated the Raiders so much that he would sabotage the Super Bowl so his friend can win the Super Bowl. That’s hard to say, because you can’t prove it.“But the facts are what they are, that less than 36 hours before the game we changed our game plan. And we go into that game absolutely knowing that we have no shot. That the only shot we had if Tampa Bay didn’t show up.”Brown explained that the change had a specific impact on Robbins. “Barret Robbins begged Coach Callahan, ‘Do not do this to me. I don’t have time to make my calls, to get my calls ready. You can’t do this to me on Friday. We haven’t practiced full speed, we can’t get this done.’”Brown tiptoed around the question of whether the change caused Robbins to go off the deep end, suggesting that it had an impact and then explaining that there’s no way to know if it did. “I’m not saying one had anything to do with the other,” Brown said. “All I’m saying is those are the facts of what happened Super Bowl week. So our ire wasn’t towards Barret Robbins, it was towards Bill Callahan. Because we feel as if he wouldn’t have did what he did, then Barret wouldn’t have done what he did.“Now, should Barret have manned up and tried to do it? Absolutely. But everybody knew Barret was unstable anyway. So to put him in that situation — not that he was putting him in that situation — but for that decision to be made without consulting the players the Friday before the Super Bowl? I played 27 years of football. The coaches never changed the game plan the Friday before the game. I’m not trying to point fingers at anybody here, all I’m saying is those are the facts of what happened. So people look at Barret and they say all these things, but every player in that locker room will tell you, ‘You’d better talk to Bill Callahan.’ Because if not for Coach Callahan, I don’t think we’re in that situation.”Well, we now know what Tim Brown will be asked about next week in New Orleans. Continuously.There’s only one potential flaw in Brown’s logic. He assumes that the new game plan came from Callahan. Who’s to say that the order to throw the ball 60 times didn’t come from the late Al Davis, who had a special affinity for throwing the football, and also for meddling directly in the coaching of the team?Thus, while it’s easy to blame Callahan, Callahan may have simply been the messenger.Regardless, Brown and Callahan and Gruden and quarterback Rich Gannon and anyone/everyone who was part of that team will soon be hearing from reporters and radio/TV producers, just in time for the 10th anniversary of the game.

I honestly don't know how to react to these sorts of allegations other than to say WTF?? ARE YOU SERIOUS???I mean the GM is rooting against your team OPENLY on the sidelines? Your head coach SABATOGES his only SUPER BOWL just because he HATES the Raiders?COME ON!I mean COME ON!This is beyond weird.When two bizzare, strange, non-logical, highly personal attacks are made. Its... its just too freak'n strange. Too weird. I mean I can't even begin to put into words how whacked this sounds.For one team to be sooooo picked on. For one team to be such a victim of traitoreous and highly personal attacks/disrespect etc. I hear this utterly fantastical bizzareness and instead of buying into it I go in the other direction to take the anti-George Costanza thinking that it isn't US its YOU.......More specifically their was a paranoid, very weird, creepy, bizzare, pall hanging over that franchise for decades that seemed to encourage an US against the WORLD thought pattern where traitors were seen under every rock, nook, cranny.Al is gone and that sort of paranoid thinking should go with him.It didn't serve the Raiders well in his declining years and now I think even Raider fans can see that clinging to that sort of logic ISN'T logical.Time to move on and hopefully you'll distance yourself from the last portion of the Davis legacy and turn things around but you certainly won't if you take on the victim role and actually encourage these weird types of ... ah ... I mean just give it up and move along. Too weird to even comment on.

 

[Jason Wood]

Is he really hated universally?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Is he really hated universally?

Maybe, but my sources only extend to Pluto.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

I mean just give it up and move along. Too weird to even comment on.

I agree. And for something so weird to comment on, you sure invested a lot of time and energy on that Tim Brown fishing trip.

 

[trader jake]

Lombardi seems to do well when he's not working for crappy owners.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I mean just give it up and move along. Too weird to even comment on.

I agree. And for something so weird to comment on, you sure invested a lot of time and energy on that Tim Brown fishing trip.

Upset that someone can expend time and energy? Then an entire thread devoted to Timmy Brown's theory probably really upsets you.My link

My point is that the narrative should be that Al Davis poisoned the well with his own issues where he tilled the ground to make it fertile for these stories to get legs and then years later sprout up.

The backstory of Davis being paranoid and of him being highly litigeous where he felt the league was against him is very likely the origin of these sorts of stories.

I'm sure Tim Brown TRULY DOES believe his version of history but if he never played for Al Davis and a past Super Bowl happened with the same result I don't think that Brown would have come out and said it was his head coach who threw the game because he hated the team.

I think Al Davis fostered that sort of environment where everyone was against his team and that it got picked up by some of the players and was the origin for some of the stories where other coaches and front office people were openly rooting against the team on the sidelines. The fact he belived it doesn't mean others have to take his lead to honor his legacy. That is part of his legacy that should be put to rest.



BTW I type fast so don't worry about how much time and energy I used to make this post, I'm fine.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Lombardi seems to do well when he's not working for crappy owners.

Outside of the part where he moved the Browns from Cleveland, I don't think you can call Art Modell a crappy owner.

 

[nxmehta]

Some people complain about the personnel decision that Lombardi made in Cleveland and Oakland (look at their drafts under his tenure- generally they were terrible). Honestly though it's not clear what hand he had in those decisions, what with Belichick and Al Davis being his bosses.

But I think the main objection to Lombardi is the behind the scenes stuff that fans don't know a lot about. Basically the word on Lombardi was that he was a power hungry guy who would backstab a lot of people and divide organizations so that he could rise to power. How exactly did he do that, and what were the specific things he did wrong? We don't really know because media members who were there back in the day when those things supposedly went down aren't saying. But when every single Cleveland media member who was around in the Belichick years is actively objecting to the hire, then you know something must have happened. In his time in the NFL he has definitely pissed a lot of people off.

But honestly that was almost 20+ years ago. Who knows what the guy is like now, both personally and professionally in choosing personnel. I'm personally willing to give him a chance. But there's been a lot of smoke coming from this guy during his career, and you have to hope the Browns don't catch fire.

 

[MAC_32]

Lombardi seems to do well when he's not working for crappy owners.

Outside of the part where he moved the Browns from Cleveland, I don't think you can call Art Modell a crappy owner.

Sure you can.

 

[Donnybrook]

I can't comment on Lombardi's time as a GM but as a NFL network analysts I wasn't a fan. He found every move that Bellichick and Patriots made praise worthy. He was in love with the Ochocinco and Haynesworth deals. He and La Canfora could hardly contain themselves when the Patriots drafted Mallet. If I was a Browns fan, I would be scared that Lombardi might want to trade for Mallet because Bill can't be wrong.On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I can't comment on Lombardi's time as a GM but as a NFL network analysts I wasn't a fan. He found every move that Bellichick and Patriots made praise worthy. He was in love with the Ochocinco and Haynesworth deals. He and La Canfora could hardly contain themselves when the Patriots drafted Mallet. If I was a Browns fan, I would be scared that Lombardi might want to trade for Mallet because Bill can't be wrong.On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

I also don't know how Lombardi will perform as a GM but I do know the Cleveland Browns did not hire him as an analyst so that doesn't concern me.Also Lombardi doesn't hold supreme power to do anything so I'm not afraid of him going crazy and trading for Ryan Mallet becausae he doesn't have that sort of power with the Browns.My concern has always been the firing of Tom Heckertt because he did a solid job of acquiring a pool of talented players, something that no Browns GM had done since the return. Heckertt seemed to know the second that Joe Banner was hired that he was gone and we've never really had anyone dig into the possibiliy of a cool relations between Banner and Heckertt in Philly as I suspect. The reasoning that Joe Banner gave to dismiss Heckertt doesn't really hold up to scrutiny IMHO. Banner said he felt it was more important that a GM was able to 'build a team' rather than pick good players. I don't buy that. If Banner feels he knows how to 'build a team' as he apparently feels that he does then he should have kept the guy who has a proven history of picking good players and Joe could direct that unique talent in a direction where Joe would 'build the team' as he sees fit. Apparently Joe is going to do that with Lombardi so I see no reason why he couldn't have done that with Heckertt unless it was a mutual feeling that they couldn't work together.I'm confident that Lombardi and Banner can work well together but we'll have to wait-and-see about their ability to judge and acquire talent.

 

[mphtrilogy]

even though he was firmly a jet hater, I kinda liked him on Simmons and NFL network. I wish him well...

 

[menobrown]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

 

[daveR]

Heckert did well. Lombardi did this.

 

[Donnybrook]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Heckert did well. Lombardi did this.

Dave you are flat out wrong.Lombardi wasn't in charge of the personnel moves. Bill Belichick held supreme power and it has been widely reported.

BB is responsible for EVERYTHING you put at the foot of Lombardi and that's not all. He's also responsible for the following gems.

My link

... A Football Life,” NFL Films ignored two of the biggest personnel moves made by Belichick in Cleveland: the release of hometown hero Bernie Kosar, and the free agent signing of receiver Andre Rison.

... The immortal Todd Philcox started and lost the next three games, before 30-year-old Vinny Testaverde came off the bench to beat the Saints to get the Browns to 6-6. Testaverde started the rest of the season and won one start as the Browns finished 7-9 after that terrific start.

Nobody’s saying Belichick was wrong to move on from Kosar, but even Belichick has admitted in subsequent years that he didn’t handle the transition correctly. That’s kind of a key piece of history left out of the documentary.

As for Rison, Browns owner Art Modell was so broke that he had to go around to area banks to borrow the $5 million signing bonus that was paid to Rison in 1995 on a five-year, $17 million contract that made him the highest-paid receiver in NFL history...

Belichick got to rewrite history and he's never had to account for his part in those drafts which all began with the infamous KYLE BRADY phone throwing tantrum-trade-down that you should know about but obviously you don't if you try to pin those drafts on Lombardi ESPECIALLY BB's first draft wtih the infamous phone-throwing incident.

... Belichick. He traded the 10th pick in 1995 — ESPN reported Belichick was so incensed the Jets took tight end Kyle Brady ninth that he threw a phone against the wall — for three picks in ’95, and a first-round selection in ’96. Linebacker Craig Powell and defensive end Mike Frederick were the first two ’95 picks, and they washed out of the league quickly...

If Mike Lombardi was the one with goo-goo eyes for Kyle Brady (oh and lets not forget DT Warren Sapp was still sitting there when all of this was going on) then how come reports didn't surface about Mike Lombardi throwing-the-phone? How come Bil Belichick 'ALLEGEDLY' threw-the-phone against the wall?Actually Lombardi comes to BB's rescue and says it was an urban ledgend.

Also this particular source indicates that EVERY PICK was Belichicks.

My link

... Despite the legend that has grown up around his final draft with the Cleveland Browns, he insisted all week on at least this: He never threw the phone.

... In 1995, the story goes, Belichick was ready to take Penn State tight end Kyle Brady with the 10th pick, a selection many in the organization backed. But the New York Jets grabbed Brady out from under the Browns' noses, and what happened next has been the subject of some debate ever since.

According to both ESPN and published reports at the time, an enraged Belichick grabbed a phone and hurled it into the wall. According to Belichick and his drafting aide at the time, Mike Lombardi, nothing like that happened. According to others in Cleveland, it's gospel. Considering the way Brady's career turned out, he wasn't worth denting the phone anyway, but that's a separate issue.

"None of that was true," Lombardi insisted. "I'll take a lie detector test on that. Were we upset that he was taken right ahead of us? Yeah, but Bill wasn't really that crazy about Brady."

Belichick's story coincided with that of his former assistant. "Some people in the organization wanted Brady," he said. "How badly, I don't know."

What Belichick does know is what followed, which was his decision to trade out of the 10th slot all the way down to No. 30, where he selected an undersized Ohio State linebacker named Craig Powell, who did little in football after suffering a severe knee injury that summer and is no longer in the game.

Whom he could have taken at No. 10, however, is of more importance, because he could have taken someone who became one of the best defensive linemen in the NFL.

"One thing I learned from that draft, and I think Bill learned as well, was that we were not prepared to make the right decision on a certain player," recalled Lombardi, who now works in personnel with the Oakland Raiders.

"It was Warren Sapp. We'd lost James Jones to Denver and Michael Dean Perry, too, so we were looking for defensive linemen. If we were prepared and known if Sapp was a good or bad guy, we would have taken him and things would have been fine. But we didn't know, so we traded back and took Powell, who wasn't a very good pick.

In this game, you have to learn from your mistakes. There's no Draft Management 101 course. I know I learned from that case, and I believe Bill did too. That will not happen again to either of us. One thing about Bill, he analyzed every draft and studied our mistakes. He doesn't make the same mistake twice."

The mistake that day--putting the telephone aside--was that his organization lacked enough information on one player and gambled on another. During the five years Belichick was the Browns' head coach and general manager (1991-95), he drafted some good players but missed on what seems like more than the norm. What that bodes for the Patriots' future is impossible to determine. All that is sure is that Belichick had the final say Saturday, so the credit--not to mention the blame--will fall on him one way or the other.

In his first year of selecting, Belichick got a Pro Bowl player in safety Eric Turner, the second pick overall, and another productive one in the sixth round in wide receiver Michael Jackson, who twice led the Browns in receptions. He hit again in 1994 on Derrick Alexander, a receiver who remains the Chiefs' best pass catcher, and got some solid years out of center Steve Everitt, cornerback Antonio Langham (until he lost his confidence), linebacker Gerald Dixon, defensive linemen James Jones and Pio Sagapolutele, and a good season from Mike Frederick before being fired after the 1995 season.

But Belichick also had some spectacular misses, such as Powell, guard Ed King, defensive lineman Bill Johnson, and wide receiver Pat Rowe, all second- and third-round choices no longer in football. Several of those failures suffered serious injuries early in their careers, which is more a case of bad luck than bad analysis, but the most glaring deficiency in Belichick's Cleveland drafts came near the end of them.

I think most people believe that Bill Belichick learned from his early mistakes in Cleveland, not just his draft miscue's but other personell decisions.If Bill gets credit for being able to learn I'll extend the same courtesy to Lombardi.

Oh and I don't think Belichick has turned into a drafting guru. He got incredibly lucky with Tom Brady but other than that one incredible lucky pick his drafting history isn't spectacular but guess what?

NOBODY has a spectacular drafting history so I would guess Lombardi won't turn into a pefect picker. I just hope he's able to replicate nailing his top picks like Heckertt did and can hopefully find at least one great-late rounder like BB did with Brady.

 

[menobrown]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't need to feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

I'm not sure what your point is on some of these examples. Rivers was good, Ponder has not been. Chris Johnson is not ADP and yes the Titans reached on Locker. The guy this thread is about said the Browns panicked picking Weedeen and the new coach stated his job is not guaranteed so I'd say yes they are trying to improve the QB play. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson both have QB's who are not elite but both QB's are competent NFL QB's, which I don't think Ponder is and I have reservations ever will be. No I don't think there is a franchise QB in this class but teams will reach out of need, which Spielman already did.I don't understand your point but mine was in response to you saying Spielman learned from his lesson and Vikings fans have nothing to complain about. I was pointing out an example of him not learning his lesson and again spending a high cost on a QB that has not yet panned out and how that alone should give Vikings fans something to complain about. ADP was mentioned because he simply masked a lot of the issues on this team but he can't do it forever. I'm not here to debate the entirety of Spielman's body of work simply pointing out something Vikings fans do have to complain about.

Speaking of Lombardi. One of his quotes he likes to use is "don't confuse hope with a plan". When Spielman spends the #12 pick on Ponder and the only other QB on the roster is Webb would you consider that a "hope" or a "plan"? To me it's a "hope". A "plan" would have involved pursuing the market for a high end backup or veteran to pair with Ponder.

 

[Wadsworth]

It is a bit strange that the defense of hiring Lombardi basically seems to be that while the teams he worked for had bad drafts he did not have anything to do with it. Then what exactly are his credentials? I had nothing to do with those bad drafts either, can I get a job?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

It is a bit strange that the defense of hiring Lombardi basically seems to be that while the teams he worked for had bad drafts he did not have anything to do with it. Then what exactly are his credentials? I had nothing to do with those bad drafts either, can I get a job?

Their isn't any defense of Lombardi. He took part in bad drafts in the past, he got fired. He took part in good drafts in past and got fired. NFL GMs do a job where the fruits of their labor isn't seen sometimes until they are gone. Its too easy to look at a draft with 20-20 hindsite with any draft and say so-and-so should have taken player, X, Y, or Z, but they blew it becaue they took, blah blah blah. Even guys considered great GMs have bad drafts and guys who you never heard of have had solid drafts. Belichick had bad drafts but does he get blaimed? No, he actually gets credit for some early draft picks of SS Eric Turner and other players and he probably should because HE was the driving force behind those picks but he was also the driving force behind the Kyle Brady/Craig Powell fiasco. GMs are great scapegoats and every casual fan believes they can do a better job and that doesn't change. I actually think the NFL network analyst position that Lombardi had gives us a much better insight into his stream of conciousness thinking and that will open him up to criticism from fans who can easily use 20-20 hindsight to rip him but I'd drearly LOVE to have a camera and microphone on the fan reaction to some draft picks and hold them to their mistakes but fans conviently forget how bad their own calls were/are and love to rip into others. Browns fans have had very little to celebrate from our GMs until Tom Heckertt so I'll be highly critical of any Lombardi mistakes but I'll give him plenty of room and won't pre-emptively attack him or try to pin past drafts on him when I know his decision making ability was obviously limited early in his career when he was young and defering to others.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I actually think the NFL network analyst position that Lombardi had gives us a much better insight into his stream of conciousness thinking and that will open him up to criticism from fans who can easily use 20-20 hindsight to rip him but I'd drearly LOVE to have a camera and microphone on the fan reaction to some draft picks and hold them to their mistakes but fans conviently forget how bad their own calls were/are and love to rip into others.

Fans aren't getting paid a lot of money to evaluate players as a full time job.

 

[MAC_32]

It is a bit strange that the defense of hiring Lombardi basically seems to be that while the teams he worked for had bad drafts he did not have anything to do with it. Then what exactly are his credentials? I had nothing to do with those bad drafts either, can I get a job?

Whatever he does structure wise behind the scenes has received kudos from many. None of us know what goes on behind closed doors, some dots can be connected but we really don't know...especially back then when information wasn't as readily available as it is now and any leaks were either kept hush hush or at the very least, local.I do think it is telling that Lombardi used to work with/for Banner and based on the timeline of events Banner basically picked him out months (maybe longer) ago. So, whatever he did when they worked together caught Banner's attention enough.I have no idea if this hire will pan out or not, but I think it is premature to judge him based off the things those that are judging him are judging him for. Wow, that sentence was awful. Anyway, Heckert's fan club is going to be harder on him and I'll be critical too if I don't like what I'm seeing - transaction wise and on the field - but I think he deserves some rope before we hang him.

 

[massraider]

The backstory of Davis being paranoid and of him being highly litigeous where he felt the league was against him is very likely the origin of these sorts of stories.

Do you have any idea how often Al Davis won his lawsuits?

 

[Biabreakable]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't need to feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

I'm not sure what your point is on some of these examples. Rivers was good, Ponder has not been. Chris Johnson is not ADP and yes the Titans reached on Locker. The guy this thread is about said the Browns panicked picking Weedeen and the new coach stated his job is not guaranteed so I'd say yes they are trying to improve the QB play. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson both have QB's who are not elite but both QB's are competent NFL QB's, which I don't think Ponder is and I have reservations ever will be. No I don't think there is a franchise QB in this class but teams will reach out of need, which Spielman already did.I don't understand your point but mine was in response to you saying Spielman learned from his lesson and Vikings fans have nothing to complain about. I was pointing out an example of him not learning his lesson and again spending a high cost on a QB that has not yet panned out and how that alone should give Vikings fans something to complain about. ADP was mentioned because he simply masked a lot of the issues on this team but he can't do it forever. I'm not here to debate the entirety of Spielman's body of work simply pointing out something Vikings fans do have to complain about.

Speaking of Lombardi. One of his quotes he likes to use is "don't confuse hope with a plan". When Spielman spends the #12 pick on Ponder and the only other QB on the roster is Webb would you consider that a "hope" or a "plan"? To me it's a "hope". A "plan" would have involved pursuing the market for a high end backup or veteran to pair with Ponder.

When the Vikings drafted Ponder it was in the wake of Favre retiring and a lockout between coaches and players following the NFL draft. The pick of Ponder at 12 may not end up being the long term answer for the Vikings at QB but the only option the Vikings had at that time was Joe Webb. I think Ponder has shown to be a bit better than Webb and McNabb who the Vikings brought in to transition for Ponder. So at least on that level the pick was a success as Ponder has been better than Webb and the FA they brought in McNabb.Now you can say it was poor management on the Vikings part to not already have a plan in place for when Favre retired but Spielman was not in charge at that time. This is before Childress was fired. So Spielman addressed the problem by picking Ponder who at the very least should be able to become a quality backup. He has played better than most of the QBs drafted from that draft class. Ponder does not compare as well to the rookie QBs drafting this past season but I think it would have been worse to not be developing a QB at all. The 2012 QB class has been a amazing group.

I am not sure if this shows Spielman has learned something or not. I think it just shows that you do the best you can with the situation and I think Spielman has done that even if Ponder never gets any better and the Vikings need to draft another QB, Ponder is still a quality team player and could then become a useful backup QB who the Vikings know they can win games with. With Favre retired the Vikings didn't have a starter or a back up to replace him, all they had was a developmental QB Webb, and in a shortened offseason they brought in McNabb who was beaten out by Ponder by week 5-6 of the 2011 season.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

The backstory of Davis being paranoid and of him being highly litigeous where he felt the league was against him is very likely the origin of these sorts of stories.

Do you have any idea how often Al Davis won his lawsuits?

I'm actually interested in the answer to this. I know he won probably his biggest one against the NFL.

 

[MAC_32]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't need to feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

I'm not sure what your point is on some of these examples. Rivers was good, Ponder has not been. Chris Johnson is not ADP and yes the Titans reached on Locker. The guy this thread is about said the Browns panicked picking Weedeen and the new coach stated his job is not guaranteed so I'd say yes they are trying to improve the QB play. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson both have QB's who are not elite but both QB's are competent NFL QB's, which I don't think Ponder is and I have reservations ever will be. No I don't think there is a franchise QB in this class but teams will reach out of need, which Spielman already did.I don't understand your point but mine was in response to you saying Spielman learned from his lesson and Vikings fans have nothing to complain about. I was pointing out an example of him not learning his lesson and again spending a high cost on a QB that has not yet panned out and how that alone should give Vikings fans something to complain about. ADP was mentioned because he simply masked a lot of the issues on this team but he can't do it forever. I'm not here to debate the entirety of Spielman's body of work simply pointing out something Vikings fans do have to complain about.

Speaking of Lombardi. One of his quotes he likes to use is "don't confuse hope with a plan". When Spielman spends the #12 pick on Ponder and the only other QB on the roster is Webb would you consider that a "hope" or a "plan"? To me it's a "hope". A "plan" would have involved pursuing the market for a high end backup or veteran to pair with Ponder.

When the Vikings drafted Ponder it was in the wake of Favre retiring and a lockout between coaches and players following the NFL draft. The pick of Ponder at 12 may not end up being the long term answer for the Vikings at QB but the only option the Vikings had at that time was Joe Webb. I think Ponder has shown to be a bit better than Webb and McNabb who the Vikings brought in to transition for Ponder. So at least on that level the pick was a success as Ponder has been better than Webb and the FA they brought in McNabb.Now you can say it was poor management on the Vikings part to not already have a plan in place for when Favre retired but Spielman was not in charge at that time. This is before Childress was fired. So Spielman addressed the problem by picking Ponder who at the very least should be able to become a quality backup. He has played better than most of the QBs drafted from that draft class. Ponder does not compare as well to the rookie QBs drafting this past season but I think it would have been worse to not be developing a QB at all. The 2012 QB class has been a amazing group.

I am not sure if this shows Spielman has learned something or not. I think it just shows that you do the best you can with the situation and I think Spielman has done that even if Ponder never gets any better and the Vikings need to draft another QB, Ponder is still a quality team player and could then become a useful backup QB who the Vikings know they can win games with. With Favre retired the Vikings didn't have a starter or a back up to replace him, all they had was a developmental QB Webb, and in a shortened offseason they brought in McNabb who was beaten out by Ponder by week 5-6 of the 2011 season.

Drafting a QB for need instead of skill is a very good way to get fired, regardless of circumstance.

 

[Biabreakable]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't need to feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

I'm not sure what your point is on some of these examples. Rivers was good, Ponder has not been. Chris Johnson is not ADP and yes the Titans reached on Locker. The guy this thread is about said the Browns panicked picking Weedeen and the new coach stated his job is not guaranteed so I'd say yes they are trying to improve the QB play. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson both have QB's who are not elite but both QB's are competent NFL QB's, which I don't think Ponder is and I have reservations ever will be. No I don't think there is a franchise QB in this class but teams will reach out of need, which Spielman already did.I don't understand your point but mine was in response to you saying Spielman learned from his lesson and Vikings fans have nothing to complain about. I was pointing out an example of him not learning his lesson and again spending a high cost on a QB that has not yet panned out and how that alone should give Vikings fans something to complain about. ADP was mentioned because he simply masked a lot of the issues on this team but he can't do it forever. I'm not here to debate the entirety of Spielman's body of work simply pointing out something Vikings fans do have to complain about.

Speaking of Lombardi. One of his quotes he likes to use is "don't confuse hope with a plan". When Spielman spends the #12 pick on Ponder and the only other QB on the roster is Webb would you consider that a "hope" or a "plan"? To me it's a "hope". A "plan" would have involved pursuing the market for a high end backup or veteran to pair with Ponder.

When the Vikings drafted Ponder it was in the wake of Favre retiring and a lockout between coaches and players following the NFL draft. The pick of Ponder at 12 may not end up being the long term answer for the Vikings at QB but the only option the Vikings had at that time was Joe Webb. I think Ponder has shown to be a bit better than Webb and McNabb who the Vikings brought in to transition for Ponder. So at least on that level the pick was a success as Ponder has been better than Webb and the FA they brought in McNabb.Now you can say it was poor management on the Vikings part to not already have a plan in place for when Favre retired but Spielman was not in charge at that time. This is before Childress was fired. So Spielman addressed the problem by picking Ponder who at the very least should be able to become a quality backup. He has played better than most of the QBs drafted from that draft class. Ponder does not compare as well to the rookie QBs drafting this past season but I think it would have been worse to not be developing a QB at all. The 2012 QB class has been a amazing group.

I am not sure if this shows Spielman has learned something or not. I think it just shows that you do the best you can with the situation and I think Spielman has done that even if Ponder never gets any better and the Vikings need to draft another QB, Ponder is still a quality team player and could then become a useful backup QB who the Vikings know they can win games with. With Favre retired the Vikings didn't have a starter or a back up to replace him, all they had was a developmental QB Webb, and in a shortened offseason they brought in McNabb who was beaten out by Ponder by week 5-6 of the 2011 season.

Drafting a QB for need instead of skill is a very good way to get fired, regardless of circumstance.

So what should they have done differently?Punted the 2012 season and let Webb play all year?

 

[Donnybrook]

Spielman orchestrated a trade for Jared Allen. He has drafted Peterson, Harvin, Rudolph, Kalil, H. Smith and a couple dozen quality starters. Only a extreme pessimist would point to Ponder and suggest that Spielman should be fired for drafting for need.

 

[cobalt_27]

Spielman orchestrated a trade for Jared Allen. He has drafted Peterson, Harvin, Rudolph, Kalil, H. Smith and a couple dozen quality starters. Only a extreme pessimist would point to Ponder and suggest that Spielman should be fired for drafting for need.

 

[MAC_32]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't need to feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

I'm not sure what your point is on some of these examples. Rivers was good, Ponder has not been. Chris Johnson is not ADP and yes the Titans reached on Locker. The guy this thread is about said the Browns panicked picking Weedeen and the new coach stated his job is not guaranteed so I'd say yes they are trying to improve the QB play. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson both have QB's who are not elite but both QB's are competent NFL QB's, which I don't think Ponder is and I have reservations ever will be. No I don't think there is a franchise QB in this class but teams will reach out of need, which Spielman already did.I don't understand your point but mine was in response to you saying Spielman learned from his lesson and Vikings fans have nothing to complain about. I was pointing out an example of him not learning his lesson and again spending a high cost on a QB that has not yet panned out and how that alone should give Vikings fans something to complain about. ADP was mentioned because he simply masked a lot of the issues on this team but he can't do it forever. I'm not here to debate the entirety of Spielman's body of work simply pointing out something Vikings fans do have to complain about.

Speaking of Lombardi. One of his quotes he likes to use is "don't confuse hope with a plan". When Spielman spends the #12 pick on Ponder and the only other QB on the roster is Webb would you consider that a "hope" or a "plan"? To me it's a "hope". A "plan" would have involved pursuing the market for a high end backup or veteran to pair with Ponder.

When the Vikings drafted Ponder it was in the wake of Favre retiring and a lockout between coaches and players following the NFL draft. The pick of Ponder at 12 may not end up being the long term answer for the Vikings at QB but the only option the Vikings had at that time was Joe Webb. I think Ponder has shown to be a bit better than Webb and McNabb who the Vikings brought in to transition for Ponder. So at least on that level the pick was a success as Ponder has been better than Webb and the FA they brought in McNabb.Now you can say it was poor management on the Vikings part to not already have a plan in place for when Favre retired but Spielman was not in charge at that time. This is before Childress was fired. So Spielman addressed the problem by picking Ponder who at the very least should be able to become a quality backup. He has played better than most of the QBs drafted from that draft class. Ponder does not compare as well to the rookie QBs drafting this past season but I think it would have been worse to not be developing a QB at all. The 2012 QB class has been a amazing group.

I am not sure if this shows Spielman has learned something or not. I think it just shows that you do the best you can with the situation and I think Spielman has done that even if Ponder never gets any better and the Vikings need to draft another QB, Ponder is still a quality team player and could then become a useful backup QB who the Vikings know they can win games with. With Favre retired the Vikings didn't have a starter or a back up to replace him, all they had was a developmental QB Webb, and in a shortened offseason they brought in McNabb who was beaten out by Ponder by week 5-6 of the 2011 season.

Drafting a QB for need instead of skill is a very good way to get fired, regardless of circumstance.

So what should they have done differently?Punted the 2012 season and let Webb play all year?

Not over-draft a ####ty QB immediately comes to mind.

 

[Biabreakable]

On the other hand, people do change and learn from mistakes. Miami fans can't seem to forgive Rick Spielman for trading a 2nd round pick for AJ Feely. I can't complain about the job he has done with the Vikings.

He has made some nice picks but in the end I'd still complain if I was a Vikings fan and further more I'd say he did not learn from his mistakes. Not sure what's worse, trading a second rounder for Feely or using the 12th overall pick on Ponder. A situation further compounded by not bringing in another solid veteran NFL QB to compete and/or mentor. I'd be worried if I was a Vikings fan that due to his need to justify the Ponder pick and Spielmans inability to evaluate QB talent that you are about to waste the rest of ADP's prime years trying to force feed Ponder the job.

Did AJ Smith waste Ladanium Tomlinson's prime years by force feeding Rivers? Are Chris Johnson prime years getting wasted by Locker? Richardson better watch out. By this logic isn't every good pick getting wasted because their team failed to get a super bowl winning QB. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson are just wasting away as well. Truthfully, I am kinda glad that Vikings don't need to feel the need to go and get a QB in this draft. I am not sure there is a franchise guy in this class.

I'm not sure what your point is on some of these examples. Rivers was good, Ponder has not been. Chris Johnson is not ADP and yes the Titans reached on Locker. The guy this thread is about said the Browns panicked picking Weedeen and the new coach stated his job is not guaranteed so I'd say yes they are trying to improve the QB play. Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson both have QB's who are not elite but both QB's are competent NFL QB's, which I don't think Ponder is and I have reservations ever will be. No I don't think there is a franchise QB in this class but teams will reach out of need, which Spielman already did.I don't understand your point but mine was in response to you saying Spielman learned from his lesson and Vikings fans have nothing to complain about. I was pointing out an example of him not learning his lesson and again spending a high cost on a QB that has not yet panned out and how that alone should give Vikings fans something to complain about. ADP was mentioned because he simply masked a lot of the issues on this team but he can't do it forever. I'm not here to debate the entirety of Spielman's body of work simply pointing out something Vikings fans do have to complain about.

Speaking of Lombardi. One of his quotes he likes to use is "don't confuse hope with a plan". When Spielman spends the #12 pick on Ponder and the only other QB on the roster is Webb would you consider that a "hope" or a "plan"? To me it's a "hope". A "plan" would have involved pursuing the market for a high end backup or veteran to pair with Ponder.

When the Vikings drafted Ponder it was in the wake of Favre retiring and a lockout between coaches and players following the NFL draft. The pick of Ponder at 12 may not end up being the long term answer for the Vikings at QB but the only option the Vikings had at that time was Joe Webb. I think Ponder has shown to be a bit better than Webb and McNabb who the Vikings brought in to transition for Ponder. So at least on that level the pick was a success as Ponder has been better than Webb and the FA they brought in McNabb.Now you can say it was poor management on the Vikings part to not already have a plan in place for when Favre retired but Spielman was not in charge at that time. This is before Childress was fired. So Spielman addressed the problem by picking Ponder who at the very least should be able to become a quality backup. He has played better than most of the QBs drafted from that draft class. Ponder does not compare as well to the rookie QBs drafting this past season but I think it would have been worse to not be developing a QB at all. The 2012 QB class has been a amazing group.

I am not sure if this shows Spielman has learned something or not. I think it just shows that you do the best you can with the situation and I think Spielman has done that even if Ponder never gets any better and the Vikings need to draft another QB, Ponder is still a quality team player and could then become a useful backup QB who the Vikings know they can win games with. With Favre retired the Vikings didn't have a starter or a back up to replace him, all they had was a developmental QB Webb, and in a shortened offseason they brought in McNabb who was beaten out by Ponder by week 5-6 of the 2011 season.

Drafting a QB for need instead of skill is a very good way to get fired, regardless of circumstance.

So what should they have done differently?Punted the 2012 season and let Webb play all year?

Not over-draft a ####ty QB immediately comes to mind.

This is the way of the NFL. Always has been really and continues to be a league that over-drafts the QB position.

2) Don't be surprised if QBs are over-drafted, despite a bland crop.

The consensus among league-wide talent evaluators is that there is no Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin III in the 2013 NFL Draft. With all due respect to Senior Bowl participants Mike Glennon (North Carolina State), Ryan Nassib (Syracuse) and Tyler Wilson (Arkansas), they are not sure-fire top picks. Certainly not No. 1 overall picks. But going in the top 20 is definitely a possibility. As is slipping into the first round like Brandon Weeden did last year. The reason? As one salary expert pointed out, the new rookie salary structure allows teams to reach for quarterbacks with a smaller penalty. And this year, we might see it more than ever.

Several teams are desperately in need of a passer, but quality options are scarce. There are only so many Matt Flynns and Alex Smiths to go around. And it's not like the days of 2010, when the St. Louis Rams and No. 1 overall pick Sam Bradford were agreeing to a six-year, $76-million deal with $50 million guaranteed. In those days, you might have been more reluctant to reach, because if you swing and miss, the penalty is crushing. The Oakland Raiders can attest (see: JaMarcus Russell). Last year, however, Weeden signed a four-year, $8.1 million deal.

Now, let's say a team like the New York Jets reaches for a passer in the first round, and the pick fails. While it hurts to waste the pick, it's no longer a devastating financial blow. This might cause even more over-drafting of quarterbacks than usual.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000130791/article/senior-bowl-buzz-qb-overdrafting-boring-freeagency-classHindsight is 20/20. Tell me which player on this list would have made a better contribution to the Vikings winning 10 games in 2012 than Ponder.

12 Minnesota Vikings Christian Ponder QB Florida State

13 Detroit Lions Nick Fairley DT Auburn

14 St. Louis Rams Robert Quinn DE North Carolina

15 Miami Dolphins Mike Pouncey C Florida

16 Washington Redskins Ryan Kerrigan LB Purdue

17 New England Patriots Nate Solder T Colorado

18 San Diego Chargers Corey Liuget DE Illinois

19 New York Giants Prince Amukamara DB Nebraska

20 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Adrian Clayborn DE Iowa

21 Cleveland Browns Phillip Taylor DT Baylor

22 Indianapolis Colts Anthony Castonzo T Boston College

23 Philadelphia Eagles Danny Watkins G Baylor

24 New Orleans Saints Cameron Jordan DE California

25 Seattle Seahawks James Carpenter T Alabama

26 Kansas City Chiefs Jonathan Baldwin WR Pittsburgh

27 Baltimore Ravens Jimmy Smith DB Colorado

28 New Orleans Saints Mark Ingram RB Alabama

29 Chicago Bears Gabe Carimi T Wisconsin

30 New York Jets Muhammad Wilkerson DT Temple

31 Pittsburgh Steelers Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State

32 Green Bay Packers Derek Sherrod T Mississippi State

33 New England Patriots Ras-I Dowling DB Virginia

34 Buffalo Bills Aaron Williams DB Texas

35 Cincinnati Bengals Andy Dalton QB Texas Christian

36 San Francisco 49ers Colin Kaepernick QB Nevada-Reno

37 Cleveland Browns Jabaal Sheard DE Pittsburgh

38 Arizona Cardinals Ryan Williams RB Virginia Tech

39 Tennessee Titans Akeem Ayers LB UCLA

40 Dallas Cowboys Bruce Carter LB North Carolina

41 Washington Redskins Jarvis Jenkins DE Clemson

42 Houston Texans Brooks Reed LB Arizona

43 Minnesota Vikings Kyle Rudolph TE Notre Dame

You could say Dalton and Kaepernick were better QB picks in the 2nd I suppose but I do not think as rookie prospects nor how they have played so far being a huge gap over Ponder. The Vikings would have needed to draft both of those players in the 1st round to get them also. They did not last to the Vikings 2nd round pick which I thought was a very good one in taking Rudolph another BPA meets need pick.

 

[MAC_32]

Front offices get fired if they get qb wrong. Reaching for a marginal qb out of need costs people jobs. Ponder was and is a marginal qb.

 

[Biabreakable]

MAC Perhaps you are not understanding the economics of how these things work now.In the past front offices were much more tied to their decisions at the QB position because of the huge amount of money given to top rookie QBs as recently as 2010 with Sam Bradford who got a deal of almost 13 million a year as a rookie.Ponder on the other hand under the CBA rules is making 2.75 million a year on his 4 year contract. That is less than 1% of the salary cap for 2013. Or to put this further into context Erin Henderson a LB made similar money to Ponder in the 2012 season.This is not such a huge deal as it once was and that is why the NFL will likely start reaching at the QB position even more than it has before, because if the team picks a QB who does not work out it is not as damaging to the team as it would be if also paying that QB a huge contract that a veteran QB can usually demand.This is why I do not think it was a bad pick for Cleveland to take Weeden with pick 22 either. As even if he does not become the QB they need to win a championship it at least gives them a QB to try to win with right now, with a very reasonable contract and at worst a good back up QB should the opportunity arise that the team can upgrade the position.I think front offices have more leeway on this because of the difference in salary involved. A lot of 1st round picks are bargains now compared to their veteran counterparts.

 

[menobrown]

Front offices get fired if they get qb wrong. Reaching for a marginal qb out of need costs people jobs. Ponder was and is a marginal qb.

Yes and I can't believe that people are trying to defend that pick.On Speilman. He's made a lot of good picks but he's been there since 2006. That's 7 full seasons and the only viable QB he's been able to come up with was Favre which obviously did not take a scouts eye to see. When the had Favre was the only time during his tenure this team was ever even remotely a SB contender. This despite 7 years from one of the best RB's of all time.He'll burn his 8th year on the job and 8th year of ADP's career as not being a SB contender either because he stubbornly will again go into the season needing to justify the Ponder pick and bring in no competition.

 

[MAC_32]

I get the economics, doesn't change my take on the wrong qb getting front offices fired though. Just ask the guys with Jacksonville, Arizona, buffalo, philly, Cleveland, and the Jets.

 

[menobrown]

MAC Perhaps you are not understanding the economics of how these things work now.In the past front offices were much more tied to their decisions at the QB position because of the huge amount of money given to top rookie QBs as recently as 2010 with Sam Bradford who got a deal of almost 13 million a year as a rookie.Ponder on the other hand under the CBA rules is making 2.75 million a year on his 4 year contract. That is less than 1% of the salary cap for 2013. Or to put this further into context Erin Henderson a LB made similar money to Ponder in the 2012 season.This is not such a huge deal as it once was and that is why the NFL will likely start reaching at the QB position even more than it has before, because if the team picks a QB who does not work out it is not as damaging to the team as it would be if also paying that QB a huge contract that a veteran QB can usually demand.This is why I do not think it was a bad pick for Cleveland to take Weeden with pick 22 either. As even if he does not become the QB they need to win a championship it at least gives them a QB to try to win with right now, with a very reasonable contract and at worst a good back up QB should the opportunity arise that the team can upgrade the position.I think front offices have more leeway on this because of the difference in salary involved. A lot of 1st round picks are bargains now compared to their veteran counterparts.

Does not matter what the contract is for a QB if he's not good enough to start on a SB contending team. Also all first round picks are more valuable now so while it does not set you back on the cap like it did before if you if you get it wrong you lost a chance to lock up a stud performer on a low multi-year contract.JJ Watt was picked on spot before Ponder so nothing you can blame Spielman for but he's under contract for 4 years at $2.8 million a year. Pouncey was picked a few picks after Ponder and is under contract at 2.3 million per year contract.Those guys are huge bargains even if their positions don't command the same pay on the open market as a similarly valued QB. I thought Dalton was a reach as well but he's barely making over a million and he did not cost the 12th pick in the draft. From what I've seen from Ponder I don't think he's very good and I don't think you can compete for a SB with him as your starting QB. Ryan Mallett may not be any better and could be worse than Ponder but I'd rather spend a third rounder and less than a million on him than the #12 pick and close to $3million a year on Ponder. There are times a QB needy team might need to take a reach but I don't think the 12th pick is ever that time.

 

[Donnybrook]

Front offices get fired if they get qb wrong. Reaching for a marginal qb out of need costs people jobs. Ponder was and is a marginal qb.

Well you should know. The Browns do it every 2 or 3 years. Good luck with Lombardi.

 

[Wadsworth]

I get the economics, doesn't change my take on the wrong qb getting front offices fired though. Just ask the guys with Jacksonville, Arizona, buffalo, philly, Cleveland, and the Jets.

None of those teams made the playoffs.