Mike Martz will not be back with the Lions! (1 Viewer)

[Bri]

My comments apply to the season as a whole, not just to 1 game. Last game they came out planning to throw a ton, I assume. The Vikings have given up the most passing attempts in the league probably because they are so hard to run on. That's what makes it so stupid that people jump in here complaining that if only Martz had given the ball to Kevin Jones more because in games where he gets x number of carries he does so-and-so. The fact that a really good team had some success in 1 game doesn't overrule a season's worth of stats. The Vikings rush DVOA is -28% going into that game, but their pass DVOA is +13%. It makes sense to throw against them.Detroit's not a good team. They have an OK offense that has matchup problems and a bad defense that gives up a lot of points while doing it slowly keeping the offense off the field. Some games they're just going to get killed, and there's nothing much to do about it. Giving a mediocre player like Kevin Jones the ball more isn't going to fix anything. Maybe you want to see them punt some of these games and run the clock out after their defense gets killed. Maybe they should run the ball more to save Kitna some of the pounding he takes. Those are valid arguments, but they're not going to lead to winning more games, just losing in more conventional manner. Why does anyone care about saving Kitna? Let him take his beating. Some of it is his own fault for hanging onto the ball too long, and he doesn't have a lot of future value to the Lions anyway.

I think DaGuru's point is by doing one thing, passing, the offense becomes extremely predictable. You don't seem to be a Jones fan and that's fine. Then pound Duckett every now and then so at least the D isn't in what could be construed as a glorified nickel defense on 1st down. Jones is a terrific receiver out of the backfield so use him like that. If I can sit in front of my TV and say "pass to WR" for every down and be right 90+% of the time.....

 

[Anthony Borbely]

I don't care what kind of stats there are...it NEVER makes sense to have 3 running plays in the first 55 minutes of a game.

 

[thatguythere]

At least the Tigers know how to make some personnel moves. The Lions will never get it.

 

[Knight who says Ni]

I agree somewhat. The bottom line is the lions do not have enough talent.

They might be losing some more talent: Link

Williams, Jones likely to leave

by Tom Kowalski

Tuesday December 04, 2007, 12:15 AM

ALLEN PARK -- Neither player will say it publicly, but two of Detroit's best offensive players -- receiver Roy Williams and running back Kevin Jones -- are counting the days until they can leave Detroit.

edit: this is already a separate thread. Sorry, didn't see it.

Hrm ... I guess this means Detroit will be drafting a WR in the first round next year thenNi

 

[J R]

My comments apply to the season as a whole, not just to 1 game. Last game they came out planning to throw a ton, I assume. The Vikings have given up the most passing attempts in the league probably because they are so hard to run on. That's what makes it so stupid that people jump in here complaining that if only Martz had given the ball to Kevin Jones more because in games where he gets x number of carries he does so-and-so. The fact that a really good team had some success in 1 game doesn't overrule a season's worth of stats. The Vikings rush DVOA is -28% going into that game, but their pass DVOA is +13%. It makes sense to throw against them.Detroit's not a good team. They have an OK offense that has matchup problems and a bad defense that gives up a lot of points while doing it slowly keeping the offense off the field. Some games they're just going to get killed, and there's nothing much to do about it. Giving a mediocre player like Kevin Jones the ball more isn't going to fix anything. Maybe you want to see them punt some of these games and run the clock out after their defense gets killed. Maybe they should run the ball more to save Kitna some of the pounding he takes. Those are valid arguments, but they're not going to lead to winning more games, just losing in more conventional manner. Why does anyone care about saving Kitna? Let him take his beating. Some of it is his own fault for hanging onto the ball too long, and he doesn't have a lot of future value to the Lions anyway.

I think DaGuru's point is by doing one thing, passing, the offense becomes extremely predictable. You don't seem to be a Jones fan and that's fine. Then pound Duckett every now and then so at least the D isn't in what could be construed as a glorified nickel defense on 1st down. Jones is a terrific receiver out of the backfield so use him like that. If I can sit in front of my TV and say "pass to WR" for every down and be right 90+% of the time.....

I agree with your restatement of DaGuru's point to some extent. I think it's important, however, to look at the context of these games and figure out why they might have that imbalance. For instance, in the last game not only does Minnesota have a dominant run defense, but they also absolutely killed Detroit with their offense. They had 42 points before Detroit got the ball in the 2nd half. When you fall behind like that, you don't have the luxury of possessions that have any other goal than scoring quickly, and to do that you have to pass, and you have to pass to your WRs.If you look at that game, the Detroit offense, while primarily passing the ball, was moving the ball well in the first half. 1st possession was a drive to about midfield that set up poor field position for Minnesota, only to see the Vikings go 87 yards in 9 plays for a TD. 2nd possession ended in 3 points. Vikings then go 84 yards in 10 plays for a TD. 3rd possession ended in a TD, and is followed by a KR for a TD. That's 3 possessions where Detroit has moved the ball well on every drive but they're down 21-10. The 4th possession was the clunker, with the penalty on 1st and the sack on 3rd. Does the defense come in and pick up the offense? No, 51 yard drive for a TD. 28-10. 5th possession Detroit now has to be in the 2-minute offense, which for most teams means a lot of passing. They move the ball down to the Viking 35 with a 1 minute left when Kitna fumbles. There's a big return, and then the Vikings have no problem going the last 27 yards in 48 seconds to make it 35-10. The Vikings got the ball first in the 2nd half and drove 66 yards for a TD. That means the Lions had the ball exactly 4 times in this game when they weren't in a 2-minute offense or weren't behind 42-10. How much do you think they can run the ball under these circumstances unless they just punt the game in the 3rd quarter? How do you know Martz wasn't hoping to pass to set up the run, only never to get a chance?I don't think Martz can win in this. Against Green Bay, the defense also got lit up, but when Martz kept calling running plays in the 2nd half, he had Joe Buck calling it "proving a point," as if there's some "mad" reason he's doing it. But if he abandons the run and tries to pass his way back into a game where they're going to need 50 points to win, well, people get riled up about that too. And if Marinelli is #####ing about Martz's play calling after a game like that (I don't know that he is, even if there is a rumor), I suspect him of deflecting attention from how bad his defense has played. That tells me more about Marinelli than it does Martz.

 

[ProBowler88]

Hopefully Millen will follow Martz out of town.

Ford is too loyal to ever do this unfortunately. Sad to say it, but once Ford dies and his son takes over, our prayers will be answered. Millen will be gone and we can finally build a real team with a real GM.

 

[Bri]

My comments apply to the season as a whole, not just to 1 game. Last game they came out planning to throw a ton, I assume. The Vikings have given up the most passing attempts in the league probably because they are so hard to run on. That's what makes it so stupid that people jump in here complaining that if only Martz had given the ball to Kevin Jones more because in games where he gets x number of carries he does so-and-so. The fact that a really good team had some success in 1 game doesn't overrule a season's worth of stats. The Vikings rush DVOA is -28% going into that game, but their pass DVOA is +13%. It makes sense to throw against them.Detroit's not a good team. They have an OK offense that has matchup problems and a bad defense that gives up a lot of points while doing it slowly keeping the offense off the field. Some games they're just going to get killed, and there's nothing much to do about it. Giving a mediocre player like Kevin Jones the ball more isn't going to fix anything. Maybe you want to see them punt some of these games and run the clock out after their defense gets killed. Maybe they should run the ball more to save Kitna some of the pounding he takes. Those are valid arguments, but they're not going to lead to winning more games, just losing in more conventional manner. Why does anyone care about saving Kitna? Let him take his beating. Some of it is his own fault for hanging onto the ball too long, and he doesn't have a lot of future value to the Lions anyway.

I think DaGuru's point is by doing one thing, passing, the offense becomes extremely predictable. You don't seem to be a Jones fan and that's fine. Then pound Duckett every now and then so at least the D isn't in what could be construed as a glorified nickel defense on 1st down. Jones is a terrific receiver out of the backfield so use him like that. If I can sit in front of my TV and say "pass to WR" for every down and be right 90+% of the time.....

I agree with your restatement of DaGuru's point to some extent. I think it's important, however, to look at the context of these games and figure out why they might have that imbalance. For instance, in the last game not only does Minnesota have a dominant run defense, but they also absolutely killed Detroit with their offense. They had 42 points before Detroit got the ball in the 2nd half. When you fall behind like that, you don't have the luxury of possessions that have any other goal than scoring quickly, and to do that you have to pass, and you have to pass to your WRs.If you look at that game, the Detroit offense, while primarily passing the ball, was moving the ball well in the first half. 1st possession was a drive to about midfield that set up poor field position for Minnesota, only to see the Vikings go 87 yards in 9 plays for a TD. 2nd possession ended in 3 points. Vikings then go 84 yards in 10 plays for a TD. 3rd possession ended in a TD, and is followed by a KR for a TD. That's 3 possessions where Detroit has moved the ball well on every drive but they're down 21-10. The 4th possession was the clunker, with the penalty on 1st and the sack on 3rd. Does the defense come in and pick up the offense? No, 51 yard drive for a TD. 28-10. 5th possession Detroit now has to be in the 2-minute offense, which for most teams means a lot of passing. They move the ball down to the Viking 35 with a 1 minute left when Kitna fumbles. There's a big return, and then the Vikings have no problem going the last 27 yards in 48 seconds to make it 35-10. The Vikings got the ball first in the 2nd half and drove 66 yards for a TD. That means the Lions had the ball exactly 4 times in this game when they weren't in a 2-minute offense or weren't behind 42-10. How much do you think they can run the ball under these circumstances unless they just punt the game in the 3rd quarter? How do you know Martz wasn't hoping to pass to set up the run, only never to get a chance?I don't think Martz can win in this. Against Green Bay, the defense also got lit up, but when Martz kept calling running plays in the 2nd half, he had Joe Buck calling it "proving a point," as if there's some "mad" reason he's doing it. But if he abandons the run and tries to pass his way back into a game where they're going to need 50 points to win, well, people get riled up about that too. And if Marinelli is #####ing about Martz's play calling after a game like that (I don't know that he is, even if there is a rumor), I suspect him of deflecting attention from how bad his defense has played. That tells me more about Marinelli than it does Martz.

Very well thought out excuse but I feel like it is.

 

[Simris]

Hopefully Millen will follow Martz out of town.

Ford is too loyal to ever do this unfortunately. Sad to say it, but once Ford dies and his son takes over, our prayers will be answered. Millen will be gone and we can finally build a real team with a real GM.

Unless the incriminating evidence Millen has is on Ford Jr. Man, I wish I could get that kind of job security. Do you think the other league potentates kind of chuckle at Millen/Fords?As a Bronco fan in MI I find the fans to loyal to a fault. I can usually get a good bet around here.The division of labor in the coaching staff amazes me. The coach should be able to dictate the game plan to the OC. Why doesn't Merinelli just take over the playcalling? I think Merinelli is hamstrung by Millen and the Fords.What ever happens you can lay odds it will be the wrong move.

 

[J R]

My comments apply to the season as a whole, not just to 1 game. Last game they came out planning to throw a ton, I assume. The Vikings have given up the most passing attempts in the league probably because they are so hard to run on. That's what makes it so stupid that people jump in here complaining that if only Martz had given the ball to Kevin Jones more because in games where he gets x number of carries he does so-and-so. The fact that a really good team had some success in 1 game doesn't overrule a season's worth of stats. The Vikings rush DVOA is -28% going into that game, but their pass DVOA is +13%. It makes sense to throw against them.Detroit's not a good team. They have an OK offense that has matchup problems and a bad defense that gives up a lot of points while doing it slowly keeping the offense off the field. Some games they're just going to get killed, and there's nothing much to do about it. Giving a mediocre player like Kevin Jones the ball more isn't going to fix anything. Maybe you want to see them punt some of these games and run the clock out after their defense gets killed. Maybe they should run the ball more to save Kitna some of the pounding he takes. Those are valid arguments, but they're not going to lead to winning more games, just losing in more conventional manner. Why does anyone care about saving Kitna? Let him take his beating. Some of it is his own fault for hanging onto the ball too long, and he doesn't have a lot of future value to the Lions anyway.

I think DaGuru's point is by doing one thing, passing, the offense becomes extremely predictable. You don't seem to be a Jones fan and that's fine. Then pound Duckett every now and then so at least the D isn't in what could be construed as a glorified nickel defense on 1st down. Jones is a terrific receiver out of the backfield so use him like that. If I can sit in front of my TV and say "pass to WR" for every down and be right 90+% of the time.....

I agree with your restatement of DaGuru's point to some extent. I think it's important, however, to look at the context of these games and figure out why they might have that imbalance. For instance, in the last game not only does Minnesota have a dominant run defense, but they also absolutely killed Detroit with their offense. They had 42 points before Detroit got the ball in the 2nd half. When you fall behind like that, you don't have the luxury of possessions that have any other goal than scoring quickly, and to do that you have to pass, and you have to pass to your WRs.If you look at that game, the Detroit offense, while primarily passing the ball, was moving the ball well in the first half. 1st possession was a drive to about midfield that set up poor field position for Minnesota, only to see the Vikings go 87 yards in 9 plays for a TD. 2nd possession ended in 3 points. Vikings then go 84 yards in 10 plays for a TD. 3rd possession ended in a TD, and is followed by a KR for a TD. That's 3 possessions where Detroit has moved the ball well on every drive but they're down 21-10. The 4th possession was the clunker, with the penalty on 1st and the sack on 3rd. Does the defense come in and pick up the offense? No, 51 yard drive for a TD. 28-10. 5th possession Detroit now has to be in the 2-minute offense, which for most teams means a lot of passing. They move the ball down to the Viking 35 with a 1 minute left when Kitna fumbles. There's a big return, and then the Vikings have no problem going the last 27 yards in 48 seconds to make it 35-10. The Vikings got the ball first in the 2nd half and drove 66 yards for a TD. That means the Lions had the ball exactly 4 times in this game when they weren't in a 2-minute offense or weren't behind 42-10. How much do you think they can run the ball under these circumstances unless they just punt the game in the 3rd quarter? How do you know Martz wasn't hoping to pass to set up the run, only never to get a chance?I don't think Martz can win in this. Against Green Bay, the defense also got lit up, but when Martz kept calling running plays in the 2nd half, he had Joe Buck calling it "proving a point," as if there's some "mad" reason he's doing it. But if he abandons the run and tries to pass his way back into a game where they're going to need 50 points to win, well, people get riled up about that too. And if Marinelli is #####ing about Martz's play calling after a game like that (I don't know that he is, even if there is a rumor), I suspect him of deflecting attention from how bad his defense has played. That tells me more about Marinelli than it does Martz.

Very well thought out excuse but I feel like it is.