Giant Wooden Badger
the Beav
After week 7 of course.
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Mike Sims-Walker (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Couch Potato
- Start date
editor47
Footballguy
fair enough. but for those who are concerned about injuries (i'm not) that is another yellow flag.
MCguidance
Footballguy
There plenty of parades, why urinate on this one?Read the beginning portions of the thread, Couch Tatertot describes at length his perceived injury prone status.
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two_dollars
Footballguy
Nice. I guess I was lucky to have him fall to me in the 20th.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
He's got talent, sure, but people are going way overboard on him.
He's the default #1 WR on a team that doesn't have a whole lot of talent there, and he's had big games against the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, and Rams.
Lucky for him, his cake schedule continues with the Titans, Chiefs, Bills, and Texans in 4 of the next 6 weeks. The Jags schedule is amazing this year.
He's the default #1 WR on a team that doesn't have a whole lot of talent there, and he's had big games against the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, and Rams.
Lucky for him, his cake schedule continues with the Titans, Chiefs, Bills, and Texans in 4 of the next 6 weeks. The Jags schedule is amazing this year.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
can we plase stop with the only blows up schedule analysis??? alot of that going on latleySteelers4Life said:
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
He's been injured a lot in his career and I'm not saying he doesn't have some talent.I'm just saying that while he seems to have come on very strong, he hasn't faced anything even remotely close to a stiff test in any of the secondaries he's faced. That's all.
Couch Potato
Footballguy
Have a look at the Pittsburgh game, week 5 last year. 6-107. Steelers were the #1 ranked pass defense last year.http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gamecenter/li...0081005_PIT@JAC
I'd say that he's been very consistent every time he's played a full game:
2008 5-46 (did not start)
2008 6-107
2009 6-106-1
2009 6-81
2009 7-91-2
2009 9-120
Catches going up, up, up. Hey, with this progression he ought to be getting 20 catches per game by the end of the year, huh? LOL. Don't flame me, I'm kidding, I'm kidding!
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Statcruncher
Footballguy
In my non-PPR league:He's the 12th WR in total points (despite not starting or catching a pass in game 1 and being benched in game 5)Steelers4Life said:
He's the 12th WR in points per game average
I did not draft him, I picked him off the waiver wire. To me that is worth going overboard.
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I watched the game and I remember it. He looked pretty good. The Steelers completely shut down the running game that day and dared Garrard to pass, and if I remember right, Walker wasn't a starter that day either. He was moved around a lot and got great matchups on safeties, and the announcers kept saying moving him around was the only weapon the Jags had because everything else was covered. I remember because he was on the bench of one or two of my teams at that point.So, he had one good game in 2008 and 4 good games in 2009 against 4 of the worst secondaries in the league. I'm not knocking the guy, just saying that he's still got a lot to prove when he faces a quality secondary - he doesnt face many this year - and he's still gotta prove he can stay healthy.
biggamer3
Footballguy
He didnt play in two games and was great in the 4 he did, yet he still hasnt shown anything!
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Laugh if you want, makes little difference to me. If people who are excited they have him want to ignore who he's faced, that's fine. He's been one helluva receiver so far this year. He hasn't faced anything close to a decent secondary yet, and he's the only real option the Jags have in their passing game right now. Lucky for him, the Jags schedule is relatively easy from here on out, too.What I said is that he's looked good against very, very weak secondaries and still has a lot to prove. He's not going to face the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, or Rams every week, so yes, he's still got more left to prove against quality opponents needs to stay healthy.He didnt play in two games and was great in the 4 he did, yet he still hasnt shown anything!
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I agree with you on the stay healthy part, but the he hasnt faced anyone arguement doesnt really matter, look at their schedule, pretty easy and Im sure D's will adjust and try to take him away if they havent already but none have been successful, even crappy teams game plan to try and take the other teams best play makers away, and MJD makes alot of D's stay honestLaugh if you want, makes little difference to me. If people who are excited they have him want to ignore who he's faced, that's fine. He's been one helluva receiver so far this year. He hasn't faced anything close to a decent secondary yet, and he's the only real option the Jags have in their passing game right now. Lucky for him, the Jags schedule is relatively easy from here on out, too.What I said is that he's looked good against very, very weak secondaries and still has a lot to prove. He's not going to face the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, or Rams every week, so yes, he's still got more left to prove against quality opponents needs to stay healthy.He didnt play in two games and was great in the 4 he did, yet he still hasnt shown anything!
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Yes, they do. But defenses focus on MJD and if an 8th guy is brought up to the box, their's not much of a chance they'll focus on Walker too. Crappy secondaries might try to take him away, but they're not going to do it effectively. His schedule has been a cakewalk and it'll stay that way a majority of the time until the playoffs. 4 of the next 6 weeks are against really, really bad secondaries, too. On a team with a star running back and no other options in the passing game aside from an aging Holt, he's got a perfect situation this year as long as he's healthy. But I'm not ready to see him as anything like a top tier talent based on 4 games against terrible secondaries. If people don't want to see it that way, no problem.I agree with you on the stay healthy part, but the he hasnt faced anyone arguement doesnt really matter, look at their schedule, pretty easy and Im sure D's will adjust and try to take him away if they havent already but none have been successful, even crappy teams game plan to try and take the other teams best play makers away, and MJD makes alot of D's stay honestLaugh if you want, makes little difference to me. If people who are excited they have him want to ignore who he's faced, that's fine. He's been one helluva receiver so far this year. He hasn't faced anything close to a decent secondary yet, and he's the only real option the Jags have in their passing game right now. Lucky for him, the Jags schedule is relatively easy from here on out, too.What I said is that he's looked good against very, very weak secondaries and still has a lot to prove. He's not going to face the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, or Rams every week, so yes, he's still got more left to prove against quality opponents needs to stay healthy.He didnt play in two games and was great in the 4 he did, yet he still hasnt shown anything!
Abraham
Footballguy
Not sure why anyone would still be "down" on MSW. He has shown that (1) when healthy and (2) when playing he is a quality fantasy receiver. You shouldn't need 40 games of history to determine that someone is a good player. He is the #1 receiver on a team with oft-overlooked passing numbers. He produces when he plays both in terms of targets, catches, and yards. The end.
I agree - he may not be a top-tier talent like Fitz or Wayne but my retort to you is, "why should that matter?" Some of the most talented players in the league aren't producing (Steve Smith comes to mind) and some moderately talented guys (Wes Welker) produce great. This is a case where situation and on-field evidence should trump any hope of "talent" ruling the day.
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Giant Wooden Badger
the Beav
He did just fine against the Steelers secondary last year. I'll go out on a limb and say that they were quite good.
JamesTheScot
Footballguy
Good posting.Where are these leagues where you award points based on talent rather than production?So he's only produced against bad D's? Last I checked, those points count just the same. If he has good matchups the rest of the way, who cares if he's isn't C.Johnson or L.Fitzgerald? He fantasy startable now. If you don't see that, I don't have the time to convince you of it.
Couch Potato
Footballguy
10/20 Update: Now WR17 in Dodds' top 250 forward. 
buck naked
Footballguy
THAT'S THE POINT. That is EXACTLY why he was a great draft bargain. If you knew the schedule and all his cupcakes, he was the perfect late round pick.
buck naked
Footballguy
You are making all the arguments for me and why I drafted him in every single high stakes league. He is something to be excited about THIS YEAR. I don't care about next year.Steelers4Life said:Laugh if you want, makes little difference to me. If people who are excited they have him want to ignore who he's faced, that's fine. He's been one helluva receiver so far this year. He hasn't faced anything close to a decent secondary yet, and he's the only real option the Jags have in their passing game right now. Lucky for him, the Jags schedule is relatively easy from here on out, too.What I said is that he's looked good against very, very weak secondaries and still has a lot to prove. He's not going to face the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, or Rams every week, so yes, he's still got more left to prove against quality opponents needs to stay healthy.
buck naked
Footballguy
#17 is too low of a ranking on MSW. Sack up and put him in the top ten!
netnalp
Footballguy
In my league he has 73 pts on the year, and that's with not playing in two games. 73/6= 12.17 (to be conservative rather than avrg. in only games played), add that to his 73 for 97 pts and he'd only be behind Andre Johnson (103) and Steve Smith (98).Garrard only scored 5pts each game Sims-Walker missed. Hardly a scientific approach, but makes me even more excited to have him on my roster with the pace he is going.
don't know why ppl hate on him. He's been consistent and thats basically what you want from all your WR's. People either got him off waivers or a really late pick. No matter where you got him, chances are he produced way better than estimated. I'd imagine the ppl who hate him are the ppl who didn't get him.
two_dollars
Footballguy
Ok then, name me just a few NFL players who blow up every game against both the best and the worst and never have been hurt before.I'm going to guess it's a very short list and those players didn't go either very late or were grabbed off the waiver wire.Steelers4Life said:Laugh if you want, makes little difference to me. If people who are excited they have him want to ignore who he's faced, that's fine. He's been one helluva receiver so far this year. He hasn't faced anything close to a decent secondary yet, and he's the only real option the Jags have in their passing game right now. Lucky for him, the Jags schedule is relatively easy from here on out, too.What I said is that he's looked good against very, very weak secondaries and still has a lot to prove. He's not going to face the Cardinals, Texans, Titans, or Rams every week, so yes, he's still got more left to prove against quality opponents needs to stay healthy.
He didnt play in two games and was great in the 4 he did, yet he still hasnt shown anything!
I think there's some of that and then there's also the fact that Garrard sucks. MSW has had an easy SOS and there are other good matchups ahead but the fact remains that he's catching everything that comes near him, was 9 of 11 targets last week and looks like the real deal with your eyeballs.
That Little Voice
Footballguy
Welcome back from the bye, MSW. You've been missed.
Top 10 in the Week 8 cheatsheets.
Top 10 in the Week 8 cheatsheets.
editor47
Footballguy
if you own him, what would it take for you to trade him at this point?
i see him as top 20/top 10 WR in a keeper/dynasty league going forward. so i'd be hard-pressed to trade him at this point.
i made a mistake a few years ago when brandon marshall had his breakout year and i lost him. i won't make the same mistake with sims-walker.
i see him as top 20/top 10 WR in a keeper/dynasty league going forward. so i'd be hard-pressed to trade him at this point.
i made a mistake a few years ago when brandon marshall had his breakout year and i lost him. i won't make the same mistake with sims-walker.
would Josh Morgan, Forsett and 2010 first be more than enough to trade for MSW?
Cookiemonster
Footballguy
For me, not even close. I was offering a top 3 draft pick + Caldwell when I got him, and would have offered the pick + Holmes if he declined. I wouldn't take anything less than a top 5 WR value for him.
Born to Run
Footballguy
Dynasty owner here, but never seen the guy play. Don't see much of the Jags here on the west coast. How does he look on the field? Is he getting separation or is Garrand just force-feeding him the ball?
A list of receivers I would take over MSW without hesitating in Dynasty, regardless of my team composition or needs:Larry Fitz, Johnson & Johnson, Wayne, Roddy White, VJax, Colston, Greg Jennings, Steve Smith South, DeSean Jackson, Santonio Holmes, Anquan Boldin, Brandon MarshallIn addition, if I felt like my team was a potential playoff team for the next 2-3 years, I would take Ochocinco and Randy Moss over MSW. If my team was an absolute mess and I gave the Jim Mora speech every time someone mentioned me making the playoffs in the next two years (Playoffs? I just hope I win another game!), then I would take MSW over those two, although I wouldn't trade either of those guys for MSW straight up (because I could instead trade them for one of the guys on the previous list that I would take over MSW, like Boldin, VJax, or Colston).In addition, I would consider Dwayne Bowe, Wes Welker, Percy Harvin, and Hakeem Nicks to be "running in place"- no net gain, no net loss. That puts MSW in the top 20, but towards the back of it.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Kind of surprized that you have Holmes and Steve Smith on there. I definitely defer to your overall knowledge and you very obviously put a lot more time into this than I do, so I am not arguing the point - but personally I would not even consider trading him for Holmes. I own Smith and MSW in the FBG Dynasty league, and I would part with Smith before MSW at this time. I like MSW better than both for now, and optimistically for the future. The others on the list I cannot argue with, although I am not sure I would trade him for Jennings either. That one would require some serious consideration.
editor47
Footballguy
i will never understand the man crush people have on santonio holmes. i also think MSW is better than Vincent Jackson and would not make that trade straight up. And I definitely like VJ a lot.
Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
crap, crap and a future possibly piece of crap for the young #17 WR = pass
Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
Santonio Holmes? and a top three pick that would have been Wells, Moreno, Brown, Crabtree or someone. I love MSW but a good solid WR and probably a starting RB for MSW is a good deal.
Cookiemonster
Footballguy
I have come to find through my few years of playing, that when I see a guy that plays like that and makes me WANT to own him on a fantasy team, I will pay whatever it takes. I got laughed at for a while when I sold guys like Marion Barber and Chad Johnson to be able to land the draft picks for Stewart, Mendenhall, Ray Rice and CJ4.24. Crabtree was the one for me in this draft (and I wouldn't give MSW for him) with Moreno a close 2nd. Calvin was a no brainer. I was the one giving up the promising Lee Evans, 5th overall pick and the following year's 1st for the rights to the 1.01 to draft ADP ahead of Calvin. Dez Bryant is the one I've seen for this upcoming draft. I figured, "What would I give for a Dez Bryant that has already proven his ability in the NFL?" The answer is Santonio (who I call a career top 25-15 FFB WR) and the 40% chance I gave that pick to be Bryant. I would much rather have MSW than Holmes & Spiller.
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Smith South is a no-brainer for me. He remains to this day the only WR in my entire history of watching NFL football I have ever seen a team say "You know what? Screw it, we're just going to triple team him all game". I've seen WRs routinely double teamed. I've seen WRs get triple teamed on very, very rare occasions. In 2005, in the playoffs, Steve Smith went off for 12/218/2 receiving and 3/26/0 rushing against Chicago, which was the #1 defense in the entire NFL that year. The next week, the Panthers played the Seahawks, and Seattle spent the entire game in high-low coverage with safety help over top. You'll see announcers talking about a triple team when it's really a play where a defender who wasn't in coverage ran over once the ball was in flight, but honest-to-goodness intentional triple teams are among the rarest of sights (sort of like a 9-man blitz), and Smith faced an entire game's worth of it. That's the single biggest complement a defense can give a player, essentially saying "you're so good that we'll use 3 defenders to neutralize you and count ourselves lucky". Smith is a sublime talent, and it's easy to lose sight of that right now... but Randy Moss clearly demonstrated why that's a bad idea. He went to a terrible situation in Oakland and everyone forgot just how good he was... and then his situation changed, and everyone regretted it. Given the chance, I'll take the sublime talent every day of the week, regardless of how they're producing right now. Smiff is only one year older than Randy Moss was in his last season in Oakland.As for Holmes... it's not that I'm super-high on Holmes so much as it is that I'm super-high on Roethlisberger. Holmes isn't a sublime talent like Smiff, but he's a very good receiver and he's going to be Roethlisberger's top target for a long time. His ceiling isn't as high as MSW's, but I think his floor is higher. In the two seasons he's played with "Good Ben" (2007 and 2009), he's averaged ~72 yards per game (1150 yards in 16 games) despite being the #2 option. I could see him very easily becoming a routine 1200/8 kind of guy, and that's a very valuable commodity in Dynasty. Just ask Roddy White.
I already explained Holmes, but that VJax stuff is just crazy talk. VJax is arguably one of the top 5 deep threats in the game, and he's also arguably one of the top 5 red zone receivers in the game. I think there are only three guys in the league who will average more TDs per game than VJax going forward (Randy, Fitz, and Calvin). San Diego is a pass-first offense, and VJax is the first option. I think that VJax is across-the-board more physically gifted than MSW (and arguably a bigger physical freak than anyone except for Calvin and Randy- he's 6'5", 240 lbs, and ran a sub-4.4!). I think he's more talented than MSW. I think he's in a better situation than MSW. He has a better pedigree than MSW. He's got a spotless injury history. He's already a proven commodity (WR12 last year, WR7 so far this year), unlike Sims-Walker, who pretty much has 4 good games on his resume (and VJax has been as good on a per-game basis as MSW so far this year, anyway). Plus, Jackson is only 26. I like Sims-Walker, but Jackson is my #5 dynasty WR, behind only Fitz, Johnson, Johnson, and Wayne. Vincent Jackson has 1 more TD and 50 fewer yards so far this year than Sims-Walker has for his entire career.
I own Wallace and I don't own Holmes... but no way does Wallace pass Holmes. Wallace is a rich man's Nate Washington. He's too one dimensional. And the thing is, Holmes is better at that one dimension than Wallace is, anyway. I like Wallace, and I think he can be a nice complementary piece to a passing attack (and I'm higher on him than most due to how high I am on Roofles), but no way does Wallace pass Holmes on the depth chart. Right now, Mississippi Mike is benefiting a lot from the respect opposing defensive coordinators are paying his teammates- Santonio included.Also, there's nothing wrong with never passing Hines Ward as #1. Michael Turner never passed Tomlinson as #1. Heck, DeAngelo Williams never passed DeSean Foster (and Jonathan Stewart might never pass DeAngelo Williams, in turn). You like Shonn Greene despite the fact that he can't pass Thomas Jones. There's no shame in a young player being unable to pass a veteran, especially a veteran like Hines Ward who will likely get at least cursory HoF consideration by the time he hangs them up. I mean, is that really the biggest criticism you have of Holmes- that he couldn't pass a borderline HoFer in his prime?
editor47
Footballguy
no, my biggest criticism of holmes SSOG is that he isn't no. 1 WR material. he's just too inconsistent. he'll go 3-44 three weeks in a row, then go 7-90-1. not my idea of a top-flight WR.
you say i like greene, who hasn't passed jones, but i don't like holmes, who hasn't passed ward. that's a terrible comparison. greene has played 7 nfl games. holmes is in his 4th season. FOURTH. he had 114 targets last year and caught 55 passes. less than half. this year, in a standard scoring system with PPR, he's had 1 gamesout of 7 with more than 16 FP. he's got high targets again this year (56) with low reception numbers (30). Wallace, on the other hand, has caught 21 of 33 targets and has almost as many yards and more TDs. While I would probably take holmes for the rest of this year, I wouldn't take him over wallace next year.
I hope you don't take my posts the wrong way SSOG. i respect everything you write and i make a point to read it. You're one of my favorite posters on here. Keep up the great work.
you say i like greene, who hasn't passed jones, but i don't like holmes, who hasn't passed ward. that's a terrible comparison. greene has played 7 nfl games. holmes is in his 4th season. FOURTH. he had 114 targets last year and caught 55 passes. less than half. this year, in a standard scoring system with PPR, he's had 1 gamesout of 7 with more than 16 FP. he's got high targets again this year (56) with low reception numbers (30). Wallace, on the other hand, has caught 21 of 33 targets and has almost as many yards and more TDs. While I would probably take holmes for the rest of this year, I wouldn't take him over wallace next year.
I hope you don't take my posts the wrong way SSOG. i respect everything you write and i make a point to read it. You're one of my favorite posters on here. Keep up the great work.
No worries man, disagreement leads to the best discussion
. Regardless, this isn't the place for this discussion, so I'm transplanting it over to the Dynasty thread where we can continue it without disturbing the Sims-Walker love-fest.Back on topic: I heard rumors that Mike Sims-Walker's tears cure cancer, although I don't know how we'd ever find out for sure, since he's never cried.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Currently, MSW is ranked #18 in my PPR 16-team league. I also picked up Mike Wallace who comes in at #28. It's nice when I can use these guys as WR3/WR4 behind Wayne, Megatron & Welker. Couple them with Rice, and I've got a PPR machine. 
again, CP.
again, CP.
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Binky The Doormat
Footballguy
This isn't even worth mustering up a weak fart in your general direction.
