Misogyny - Thoughts on it and has is become widespread? (1 Viewer)

[massraider]

You're generalizing from anecdotes.

Is there a statistic you are waiting for me to produce that proves that misogyny is alive and well? 

 

[tonydead]

 I've seen posts that suggest that single mothers are the cause of many of the problems in the country - if these women would have some sexual self control we would have better results. 

Link?

 

[Nugget]

Link?

I mean, we've already got a single-motherhood rate and men are going to college the last 30+ years.  I would think that maybe the opposite might be true based upon our current situation.  No degree = no fun. 

Besides, women control access to sex, not men.  Men control access to marriage.  If we have a single-motherhood problem it's not because all women are being raped by men and having babies against their will, it's because those women are making bad choices.  So I think your argument is misdirected at best.  That's a discussion for another thread, though.

 

[tonydead]

I know what he said, and I didn't change the meaning of what he said. 

He said neither is any kind of a problem, for the most part. 

For the most part?  

  It's like people can't read.

I think what people fail to realize and/or acknowledge is that there will ALWAYS be bad people in the world.  As a result, there will always be some prejudice/racism, there will always be workplace violence and/or sexual harassment, etc.  I think it's been minimized to a large extent, and now it can happen in both directions whereas 50 years ago you probably didn't have much sexual harassment of men by women in the workplace if only because men tended to dominate the upper levels of management.  Unfortunately, people use the fact that there are still bad people in the world and the anecdotal incidents such people are involved in as proof that society in general still has an overall issue.  Certainly, we can continue to strive to be better but, as an example, the notion that America is still an extremely racist country is wrong.

 

[massraider]

I know that misogyny still exists, because our 45th president told me so when he bragged about sexual assault, only to dismiss it as locker room talk. 

If misogyny wasn't any kind of a problem, no one would stand for that kind of talk. 

 

[tonydead]

From a copy paste I can't see the context (other posts) he was responding to.  But, yeah from what I can tell it appears he's blaming women solely for getting pregnant when single.  That would classify as misogyny to me.   

But, let's cut to the chase.  Your original claim was this forum had a lot of that kind of stuff going on.  I'd suggest you take all those posts you went and found and send them to Joe in a PM so he can deal with them and make this place safer for you.   

 

[tonydead]

I know that misogyny still exists, because our 45th president told me so when he bragged about sexual assault, only to dismiss it as locker room talk. 

If misogyny wasn't any kind of a problem, no one would stand for that kind of talk. 

Nobody said misogyny or racism no longer exists.

And the true and go to argument from 5 years ago still applies today - that's how bad Hillary was that the majority was willing to look past that.  That and he destroyed her in the third and final debate that happened two days after that news was leaked.  

 

[supermike80]

Link?

Well when I do see blame being placed on single mothers it isn't because they cant control their sexual urges, many times, in fact most times, the complaints fall on the fathers for not doing what's right by the women they knock up.

 

[Nugget]

From a copy paste I can't see the context (other posts) he was responding to.  But, yeah from what I can tell it appears he's blaming women solely for getting pregnant when single.  That would classify as misogyny to me.   

But, let's cut to the chase.  Your original claim was this forum had a lot of that kind of stuff going on.  I'd suggest you take all those posts you went and found and send them to Joe in a PM so he can deal with them and make this place safer for you.   

Good news is some of the posts have been deleted.  And hopefully a couple people may think a bit more about the issue after having read the thread.  Even if it is just to mock me.  

 

[massraider]

https://www.thehrdirector.com/features/diversity-and-equality/mans-view-stopping-misogyny-gender-inequality-work/

Article from an HR perspective

 

[massraider]

Good news is some of the posts have been deleted.  And hopefully a couple people may think a bit more about the issue after having read the thread.  Even if it is just to mock me.  

It seems that simply raising the subject is upsetting. 

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I don't think we're all working with the same definition of misogyny. IMO something can be sexist (and sexism goes both ways) without being misogyny.

Too often it's used simply as an insult like racist, homophobe, Nazi, etc. 

 

[tonydead]

Good news is some of the posts have been deleted.  And hopefully a couple people may think a bit more about the issue after having read the thread.  Even if it is just to mock me.  

If you claim misogyny on something that isn't you'll likely get called out for it.  That's how message boards work.  

 

[Rich Conway]

I don't think we're all working with the same definition of misogyny. IMO something can be sexist (and sexism goes both ways) without being misogyny.

Too often it's used simply as an insult like racist, homophobe, Nazi, etc. 

This is almost always the case in threads like these.  I think part of @Nugget's original point was to lay out a working definition for what qualifies and what doesn't, although he can feel free to correct me if not.

 

[Nugget]

This is almost always the case in threads like these.  I think part of @Nugget's original point was to lay out a working definition for what qualifies and what doesn't, although he can feel free to correct me if not.

That pretty much nails it. 

I guess I think it more common than we realize - the article @massraiderposted above from the HR source is spot on.  

 

[massraider]

One thing about the internet, if you want to say some nasty stuff about a group of people, you can find people to amplify your comments, whether they agree or not. 

Human nature, I guess. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Good news is some of the posts have been deleted.  And hopefully a couple people may think a bit more about the issue after having read the thread.  Even if it is just to mock me.  

One post was reported and deleted.

Please use the quote function for the others so we can see what you're referencing. Thanks. 

 

[massraider]

You immediately think about workplace, because that's where we are in our lives. 

https://www.newamerica.org/political-reform/reports/misogynist-incels-and-male-supremacism/history/ 

That's a very long article that no one will read, but there's some interesting history regarding incels.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That pretty much nails it. 

I guess I think it more common than we realize - the article @massraiderposted above from the HR source is spot on.  

Thanks. So were you looking for comment about each of the bullet points in the original post?

Or just a working definition?

Again, for calibrating, a poll is an excellent way to do this. Much better than comments.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I would ask this of you @Nugget to help calibrate what you are saying so I can better understand you.

How would you rate the content posted on the forums today at Footballguys from 1 (terribly misogynistic) to 10 (not misogynistic at all). 

And of course, others are welcome to rate. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Or I should take my own advice and set up a poll for this. 

 

[Nugget]

I would ask this of you @Nugget to help calibrate what you are saying so I can better understand you.

How would you rate the content posted on the forums today at Footballguys from 1 (terribly misogynistic) to 10 (not misogynistic at all). 

And of course, others are welcome to rate. 

It's low, let's go with an 8.  

The content and overall tone on the forums is great - that is why we come back.  

In a couple threads, there will be posts that I cringe at, and I am surprised that other people still feel that way or don't speak up against it.  They tend to be around affirmative action, racism, abortion, LGBTQ,  and female politicians.   Some are old locker room type humor, stereotypes, blonde jokes, and such.  Other get a bit more aggressive and use stronger language.  Others have a different perspective and I'm interested in why they think that way.  I mentioned it today as I saw a man in power dismissing a sitting female senator by referring to her as a meme.  I don't want that to become normal or OK.  I've never considered anything worthy of reporting - I don't want to see the discussion censored, I'm just sometimes surprised on what gets called out.  

Again, I don't think it is a huge problem, but I didn't think I was pointing anything out that others weren't aware of.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

The number of negative comments against Joe manchin alone in the last two days should prove that Warren getting some criticism or even a meme has nothing to do with misogyny. 

 

[djmich]

Nugget, you are honing in on Musk calling out Warren because she is a woman.  A month or so ago he clapped back at Bernie Sanders.  He happens to be old.  Maybe he just doesn’t like their politics and it’s not about their gender or age?

Warren on the other hand has had no problem dissing specifically on white men.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Manchin won't vote for a 5 trillion dollar boondoggle. Is called a liar, devil, snake, etc.

Elizabeth Warren lies about her heritage and in doing so plagiarized for a book called pow wow chow and the only reason she gets criticized is because she is a woman.

Strange world. 

 

[Nugget]

Or I should take my own advice and set up a poll for this. 

Speaking of poll results, were you surprised on the results for the SNL treatment of Roger Stone's wife?  I don't want to see those types of jokes normalized.  

 

[Nugget]

Nugget, you are honing in on Musk calling out Warren because she is a woman.  A month or so ago he clapped back at Bernie Sanders.  He happens to be old.  Maybe he just doesn’t like their politics and it’s not about their gender or age?

Warren on the other hand has had no problem dissing specifically on white men.

Fair point.  

I don't recall a thread being started saying "I forgot you were alive Bernie" after that exchange, and then telling him to go self medicate.  

Then venn diagram with white men and American billionaires has a lot of overlap.  

 

[tonydead]

Fair point.  

I don't recall a thread being started saying "I forgot you were alive Bernie" after that exchange, and then telling him to go self medicate.  

Then venn diagram with white men and American billionaires has a lot of overlap.  

So it's specifically white male billionaires that can't tell Warren to take a chill pill now.   She's a woman AND only worth 14 million!   

This faux outrage keeps taking unexpected turns.  

 

[Nugget]

So it's specifically white male billionaires that can't tell Warren to take a chill pill now.   She's a woman AND only worth 14 million!   

This faux outrage keeps taking unexpected turns.  

I was just answering the question presented in the post.  If you want to say that misogyny is overblown, or continue to focus on this one exchange between Musk and Senator Warren, that is fine.  

 

[tonydead]

I was just answering the question presented in the post.  If you want to say that misogyny is overblown, or continue to focus on this one exchange between Musk and Senator Warren, that is fine.  

You waaaay overblew it.   Started a thread about it.  And then rated it 8/10 of not being an issue.  Bravo.  

 

[Nugget]

You waaaay overblew it.   Started a thread about it.  And then rated it 8/10 of not being an issue.  Bravo.  

Thanks.  It is a real issue.  It isn't a big issue that Joe needs to worry about for his business, in my opinion.  

You can return to your victory lap on your $420K tax savings.  

 

[tonydead]

Thanks.  It is a real issue.  It isn't a big issue that Joe needs to worry about for his business, in my opinion.  

You can return to your victory lap on your $420K tax savings.  

I'm pretty good at multitasking.  Dispelling fishing trips isn't hard.    

 

[The Duff Man]

I think there are groups of people who blur the lines on issues like these. 
- people that are sometimes horrible to everyone

- people that are sometimes horrible to someone different than them 

Then you have a larger group that in the heat of an argument or confrontation will throw out comments to get a rise out of the other party. That could include commenting on their appearance, race, gender, occupation or anything really. 
 

As a father of two teen girls I hope western society has progressed on this. I think we have. 

 

[The Duff Man]

You also have to define what is “progress?”

If in 1980 some percentage (say 30% for an example) of males in their 30s are misogynist. 

In the 2020s that population group is in their 70s and the percentage of surviving members that are misogynist may be similar.  One might define that as no progress?

But if the new group of males today in their 30s has dropped to 5% that are misogynist that is a win. Even if those old dudes are still around treating women poorly. 

 

[Summer Wheat]

I would ask this of you @Nugget to help calibrate what you are saying so I can better understand you.

How would you rate the content posted on the forums today at Footballguys from 1 (terribly misogynistic) to 10 (not misogynistic at all). 

And of course, others are welcome to rate. 

8 or 9

People like Warren, Hillary are public figures and open to the same barbs and insults just like Biden, Trump , Cruz, Cuomo and others get.  

 

[wildwombat]

gender pay gaps  Fake news

That right there is the problem.  Study after study for decades have shown that there is a gender pay gap.  (*No, I am not going to supply you with links, a simple Google search will bring up many.  I just did it.)

The reason that I say that this is the problem is the disconnect.  It is the same as the disagreement over mask mandates.  Over requiring large companies to require vaccines or frequent testing.  it is the disagreement between the belief in science and the doubting of it.  It is the difference between acknowledging that racism is a problem in our country and saying that it isn't because we had a Black President. 

*Now I am sure that people can come up with cherry picked studies on how there is no gender pay gap.  Just like I can find the 1% of scientists that scoff at Climate Change.  Give me a break.  Or keep citing "Alternative Facts."

 

[GordonGekko]

I might be in a bubble.  I hear references to women being crazy and off of their meds all the time - not for men.  I work automotive, maybe people are just talking trash on the opposite sex more and others have an experience that is different than mine.  I don't think I'm making this up, but I could be in the minority.

VIDEO: Bill Burr - why men are paid more than women Nov 27, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVvagEMLEU

VIDEO: Bill Burr - Motherhood Isn't The Hardest Job May 30, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xp4z5qlyqs

VIDEO: Bill Burr - no reason to hit a woman Jan 29, 2016

The FULL segment about how women argue and why there's no reason to hit a woman from Bill Burr's show "You people are all the same"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rksKvZoUCPQ

*****

The key point to Bill Burr's monologue is that if you silence people then you never are allowed to ask how two people got to that horrible place to start.

https://youtu.be/rksKvZoUCPQ?t=336

Or if you transpose it to society at large, that you'll never be able to find out how society got to the place. Or have the kind of discussions that can help change things moving forward.

Should every woman be believed?

My take is everyone, man or woman, should be heard. Then based on the circumstances and merit, one can determine if it's worth listening to and paying attention. Just because you are outraged doesn't mean you are right. Just because you are outraged doesn't mean you are entitled to the widespread accommodation of everyone else.

This is a two way street. Sometimes you are going to hear things you just don't like. All of those things aren't meant as personal heat seeking missiles just to cut you off at the knees. On the flip side, people who start top level threads have to show some due diligence in constructing thread titles and topic context to actually effect practical discussion. It's incumbent for all Conservatives/ Republicans here to be above reproach in all things. We are clearly being hunted and bracketed by radical leftists and let's not give anyone any ammo to use against us in any format nor any pathway.

I was the first person to reply to the other thread and I cleaned it up. Well as much as it was going to happen last night. I did my part. You'll have to come to terms that what offends you is not always the same as being universally offensive. That's you doing your part.

 

[Nugget]

VIDEO: Bill Burr - why men are paid more than women Nov 27, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVvagEMLEU

VIDEO: Bill Burr - Motherhood Isn't The Hardest Job May 30, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xp4z5qlyqs

VIDEO: Bill Burr - no reason to hit a woman Jan 29, 2016

The FULL segment about how women argue and why there's no reason to hit a woman from Bill Burr's show "You people are all the same"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rksKvZoUCPQ

*****

The key point to Bill Burr's monologue is that if you silence people then you never are allowed to ask how two people got to that horrible place to start.

https://youtu.be/rksKvZoUCPQ?t=336

Or if you transpose it to society at large, that you'll never be able to find out how society got to the place. Or have the kind of discussions that can help change things moving forward.

Should every woman be believed?

My take is everyone, man or woman, should be heard. Then based on the circumstances and merit, one can determine if it's worth listening to and paying attention. Just because you are outraged doesn't mean you are right. Just because you are outraged doesn't mean you are entitled to the widespread accommodation of everyone else.

This is a two way street. Sometimes you are going to hear things you just don't like. All of those things aren't meant as personal heat seeking missiles just to cut you off at the knees. On the flip side, people who start top level threads have to show some due diligence in constructing thread titles and topic context to actually effect practical discussion. It's incumbent for all Conservatives/ Republicans here to be above reproach in all things. We are clearly being hunted and bracketed by radical leftists and let's not give anyone any ammo to use against us in any format nor any pathway.

I was the first person to reply to the other thread and I cleaned it up. Well as much as it was going to happen last night. I did my part. You'll have to come to terms that what offends you is not always the same as being universally offensive. That's you doing your part.

Do we have radical leftists on this board?

 

[parasaurolophus]

That right there is the problem.  Study after study for decades have shown that there is a gender pay gap.  (*No, I am not going to supply you with links, a simple Google search will bring up many.  I just did it.

You are wrong. Study after study shows men earn more than women.

But study after study also shows men work more dangerous jobs, work longer, and work in fields that pay more.

In other words pay gap, shmay gap 

 

[djmich]

You are wrong. Study after study shows men earn more than women.

But study after study also shows men work more dangerous jobs, work longer, and work in fields that pay more.

In other words pay gap, shmay gap 

And of course doesn’t take into consideration things like experience, education, etc

 

[Nugget]

You are wrong. Study after study shows men earn more than women.

But study after study also shows men work more dangerous jobs, work longer, and work in fields that pay more.

In other words pay gap, shmay gap 

Do the fields pay more because of the amount of men in the field?  Do nurses, hairdressers, and teachers get paid less because they were traditionally jobs for women?

 

[Nugget]

And of course doesn’t take into consideration things like experience, education, etc

Why are women still choosing the lowest paying jobs?

The vocational programs that tend to attract females also lead to the least-lucrative professions. That’s hurting them—and the economy.

In a classroom of a technical college an hour from Atlanta, Kimberly Hinely picks up a welding torch and lowers her face shield. Sparks fly around her as she melts the metal, joining iron to iron.

Three months into an evening welding program where she’s the only woman, the 44-year-old former tattoo artist said she feels like “one of the guys.”

“I don’t like working with women—their drama,” she said. “I’ve always gotten along with guys well. I’m a real smartass.”

When she finishes the certificate program at West Georgia Technical College next year, Hinely will be trained in a field the Bureau of Labor Statistics says pays $40,000 a year, money that will help support her four kids, aged 7 to 25.

During the last academic year, U.S. colleges and trade schools awarded nearly a million certificates, almost 60 percent of them to women. Yet just 6 percent of those in welding—the most popular program among men—went to women.

So where are all the female students? They’re in the salon next door, learning about cosmetology, and in the nursing classroom nearby, administering “rag baths” to mannequins. And when they graduate, they’ll earn barely two-thirds of what Hinely stands to make, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

At a time when there is an acute shortage of welders and other tradespeople, hardly any women are being trained for these and other well-paying jobs. This more than 40 years after Congress banned sex discrimination in American education.

Experts offer several reasons for this split, including gender stereotypes and the threat of workplace harassment in male-dominated jobs

But employers and advocates agree it’s hurting both women and the economy, leaving families stuck in poverty and businesses scrambling for workers in fields, such as IT and advanced manufacturing, where they’re growing troublingly scarce.

So-called middle-skill jobs, such as welding, automotive repair, cosmetology, and medical assisting, account for 53 percent of United States’ labor market, but only 43 percent of workers are trained to the middle-skill level, according to 2015 data from the National Skills Coalition, the most recent available. Middle-skill jobs require more than a high-school diploma but less than a bachelor’s degree.

Getting more women into nontraditional certificate programs could help lift more families into the middle class and ease a labor shortage that is expected to only grow worse as more baby boomers retire. Yet not much is being done to change the enrollment pattern.

“We’re missing something obvious that would help employers and help the economy,” said Barbara Gault, the executive director of the Institute for Women’s Policy Research.

Women make up 55 percent of middle-skill workers, but 83 percent of those in jobs that pay less than $30,000 a year, according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. And the median wage for women with a certificate is $27,864, compared to $44,191 for men, the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce reports.

Much of that gap is due to occupational segregation —women clustering in low-paying careers including cosmetology and child care and men in more lucrative professions such as welding and automotive repair.

There’s been some progress. Before the passage of the Title IX gender-equity law, in 1972, there were almost no women or girls in vocational programs leading to careers in fields dominated by men.

Today, women and girls make up about a third of students in so-called nontraditional vocational programs—those in which three-quarters or more of the workforce is male.

But many certificate programs are still dominated by one gender to a surprising extent. Ninety-four percent of welding certificates went to men in the last academic year, and 95 percent of cosmetology certificates went to women, an analysis of data provided by the U.S. Department of Education shows.

In some high-growth, high-paying programs, such as information technology and advanced manufacturing, the share of women and girls is smaller than it was a decade ago, according to the National Alliance for Partnerships in Equity.

Title IX made it illegal for schools to steer students into particular fields based on their gender, and required institutions to ensure that disproportionate enrollment was not the result of discrimination.

In the 40 years since it passed, the nation has spent millions encouraging girls and women to pursue degrees in science, technology, engineering, and math. Fewer resources have gone into persuading them to trade their blow dryers for welding torches, however.

In the 1980s, and 1990s, Congress required states to set aside a share of their federal job-training funds to eliminate sex bias in career and technical education. But policymakers eliminated most of those rules in 1998, replacing them with a requirement that states increase participation and completion rates for both men and women in programs where they’re underrepresented.

Congress added teeth to that law in 2006, threatening states with the loss of federal funds if they failed to meet specific targets. So far, though, no states have been stripped of their funds despite the fact that only six states have consistently met their targets since the law was enacted.

In addition to recruitment methods that favor one sex, career counseling that channels students into stereotypical fields, and fear of sexual harassment, the biggest contributor to the gender divide in certificate programs may be socialization, said Mary Alice McCarthy, the director of the Center on Education and Skills at the New America Foundation.

Even today, “men are much more sensitive to salary signals then women,” McCarthy said. “It goes deep into our understanding of our roles as caregivers or providers.”

Over in the cosmetology classroom, Kaylie Hudson, 31, was giving a bob to a brown-haired mannequin with a mullet while other students practiced their skills by giving discounted haircuts to locals. She said she hadn’t given much thought to how much she might earn as a hairdresser. Her dream is to open a salon that would give cut-rate cuts to low-income women “so they feel better going into job interviews.”

In fact, with her certificate in cosmetology, she’s likely to earn less than the average high-school grad, according to the Georgetown center. That begs the question of why women would pay for certificate programs—even taking on debt to do it—to end up with little to no earnings boost.

For Lorelei Shipp, 44, who is cutting her friend’s hair in the salon next door, it’s about freedom and flexibility. As a hairstylist, she expects to make half what she earned as a customer-service manager in the corporate world, “but the work-life balance will more than make up for it.”

DeeDee Patterson, an instructor in the cosmetology program, can count on one hand the number of men she’s taught in the past eight years. She said male hairdressers are in high demand because “women want to look good for men, and men know what looks good on women”—and often out-earn female colleagues. But just as women are afraid they’ll be perceived negatively by co-workers in male-dominated fields, men considering cosmetology “are afraid they’ll be stereotyped as too feminine.”

The median salary for male cosmetologists is $39,100, according to the Georgetown center; for women, it’s $24,700.

Students who break with gender norms are often following family members into a trade. Brandon Harris, 19, the only man in the nurses’ aide course, has a mother and aunt who are nurses. Channa Cassell, 18, one of three women in the morning welding course, has welding in her blood: Her father, uncle, and grandfather are all welders. Even so, her family was “a little shocked” when she announced that she would follow in their footsteps.

Parents often discourage their daughters from going into welding, seeing it as “dark, dirty, and dangerous,” said Monica Pfarr, the executive director of the American Welding Society Foundation. In an effort to change that image, the foundation has started sending a tractor-trailer truck to state fairs with an exhibit inside promoting the highly technical, well-paying jobs available to welders. The trailer gets 28,000 visitors a year, she says.

In west Georgia, the community college and local employers recently tried another tack, holding an open house for aspiring tradeswomen. Carroll County, where the college is located, will need to produce 4,000 more graduates of all kinds by 2020 to meet employer demand, and it won’t get to that goal without women, said Donna Armstrong-Lackey, the senior vice president of the Carroll County Chamber of Commerce.

“We’re trying to take away the element of fear that they’re not qualified, or don’t have the strength,” to do traditionally male jobs, Armstrong-Lackey said at the open house.

But it can be a tough sell. When Armstrong-Lackey asked one petite young woman if she was considering a career in welding, the woman quickly responded, “I’m too little.”

Armstrong-Lackey told the woman that her own daughter “is your same size and she’s getting a welding certificate.” She urged: “Don’t discount it.”

Across the hall, Nikki Bond, 32, was chatting with the West Georgia Technical alumna Andrea Laminack, 39, about what it’s like to be a woman welder. Bond, a mother of three, had already registered for the certificate program in welding, but was nervous and seeking reassurance.

Laminack, who is pregnant and has a 14-year-old daughter, told her there will be challenges, but to focus on her love of the work.

She said she was picked on by male colleagues when she started her job. They’d leave notes on her welds with insults such as “ugly,” and “due in 2020,” a reference to what they considered her slow pace.

“I had to grow a thicker skin, but I’m providing well for my family,” she said. “The money keeps me from running away.”

 

[Ghost Rider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqAJLh9wuZ0

Not a big fan of the song, but the message is clear and probably pretty accurate. 

 

[GordonGekko]

Nugget, you are honing in on Musk calling out Warren because she is a woman.  A month or so ago he clapped back at Bernie Sanders.  He happens to be old.  Maybe he just doesn’t like their politics and it’s not about their gender or age?

Warren on the other hand has had no problem dissing specifically on white men.

Warren called Musk a "freeloader" and said he wasn't paying his fair share of taxes.

For every day that Musk has lived in America, he has paid 1.5 million dollars in taxes. That's the breakdown.  War with China is almost inevitable, and Musk is part of the backbone of national security that our current military industrial complex will rely on to protect America.

What no one wants to talk about is that if Warren doesn't want to get into a verbal punching match with Musk, then she shouldn't start a public attack of him.

Also no one wants to discuss Musk's main point in that if you are going to tax people into oblivion, people need to see a return on how those taxes are being spent. I can agree with that. I'm retired now. As the owner and CEO of several successful "small businesses" ACROSS A LIFETIME, I've paid an ungodly sum in taxes, licenses, fees, insurance, etc, etc. And for most of my working life I've seen that money just wasted and looted out. My tax dollars have paid the salaries of both Gavin Newsom and Andrew Cuomo. I have every right to be pissed about being taxed and watching my money get set on fire for their own political gain. I paid Cuomo's salary while he sent the elderly to death camps to appease his Big Pharma/Big Medicine donors while he was writing a self congratulatory book, basking in an Emmy, sexually assaulting women and conferring with his brother, Chris "Fredo" Cuomo, on how best to not get sent to prison for all of it. Musk is right, the average American should be offended at how their tax dollars are being spent and should be offended at elected officials demanding more of those tax dollars to patch over their incompetence and greed.

Warren eating people saying ugly things about her is part of the "game"  Do anyone here think if Warren had a relative who needed an organ transplant to live, that they would go on the list like everyone else? But that's also part of the game. With great power and great access comes great tradeoffs.

DO YOUR JOB THE RIGHT WAY AND DO YOUR JOB THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DONE AND THEN YOU'LL START GETTING CALLED THINGS YOU WANT TO HEAR.

 

[rockaction]

This started over Elizabeth Warren and Elon Musk? 

Oh my. If that's what brought on the misogyny talk, maybe what we really need to talk about here is jumping to conclusions. I can almost imagine the train of thought that gets one from earnest criticism after reprisal to misogyny. 

That's a woke line of thought, and not worth much of a rebuttal. 

 

[GordonGekko]

In a couple threads, there will be posts that I cringe at, and I am surprised that other people still feel that way or don't speak up against it.  They tend to be around affirmative action, racism, abortion, LGBTQ,  and female politicians.   Some are old locker room type humor, stereotypes, blonde jokes, and such.  Other get a bit more aggressive and use stronger language.  Others have a different perspective and I'm interested in why they think that way.  I mentioned it today as I saw a man in power dismissing a sitting female senator by referring to her as a meme.  I don't want that to become normal or OK.  I've never considered anything worthy of reporting - I don't want to see the discussion censored, I'm just sometimes surprised on what gets called out.  

What did you do about it?

When I don't like something that someone says and it's enough of an issue for me to address, I address it directly. People who have seen my posts in the last year know exactly to the relentless nature that I address the things I don't like.

If this issue was that important to you, you would have used the Report Button and/or directly confronted the issues you don't like given the time and place. This the politics subforum, when people talk about politics, it's implied that people are sometimes going to hear things they don't like. Or that might offend them.  You'll say X or Y is too egregious. Where is this X and Y? And before anyone gets hard line on me here, I usually never ask people for links or ask people to prove their point. But you are saying there is some widespread misogyny. OK, prove it. Then prove you did something about it.

If I don't do something "about it", the real answer is the issue wasn't one where I cared that much. You talk about what other people should invest without accepting that they have no reason to invest if you don't invest.

You are offended that other people aren't outwardly offended by things you didn't care enough to actually do something about nor even talk about before given the actual time and place that it happened? And that's somehow magically everyone else's fault?

Back in 2008-2009, some of the regulars in the Free For All were complaining about the quality of posts and what they saw as a decline in the quality of discussion. You know what I said? ( Not like I'm giving you a choice here)  I said  -  Every time it bothers you, go start 5 new top level topics showcasing the kind of quality discussion and topics you'd like to see yourself from others.  Of course I was immediately attacked for it. But that's what low value posters do. They expect someone else to make everything better for them for their comfort.

My viewpoint is plain here  and no one else here needs to share it - I have absolutely zero respect for anyone who complains about something and then does nothing about being part of the change to make a difference in what they are complaining about in the first place. It's about extreme ownership. Maybe at this point, you'll decide to address issues as you see them and/or use the Report Button when you see something you don't like. And if you do, then maybe you'll eventually see people take you more seriously.

If you aren't willing to be a proactive part of your own solution, then don't expect anyone else to take you seriously. If you speak up, you've obligated yourself to step up.

Now everyone here is going to watch you and see if you choose to step up or not. The cost of your outrage is not free. The cost of your outrage doesn't get to operate like a tax on everyone else here because you refuse to understand pure sweat equity.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Do the fields pay more because of the amount of men in the field?  Do nurses, hairdressers, and teachers get paid less because they were traditionally jobs for women?

No.  Wages are determined by supply and demand.  For most occupations, it's pretty easy to explain wages and salaries just by looking at restrictions on entry (like educational or licensing requirements) and working conditions (office jobs vs. dirty jobs).    

For example, some "traditionally male" jobs (e.g. construction worker) pay more than some "traditionally female" jobs (e.g. secretary).  That's not because one is male and one is female.  It's because one is outside, dangerous, and tiring, and the other is a safe, relatively pleasant desk job.  Some other "traditionally male" jobs -- like janitor -- pay a lot less and more on par with the secretaries.  This is less relevant today than it would have been 50 years ago, but traditionally male jobs have historically been more unionized than traditionally female jobs.  

Also, it's worth noting that nurses make pretty good money.  Which is not surprising, considering it's not an especially pleasant job and often requires weird hours.  They don't make doctor money, but I don't know why that would be remarkable -- they're not doctors. 

But this is all irrelevant anyway.  Lots of men are nurses and teachers and lots of women are lawyers and accountants.  Male and female nurses make about the same salary, as do male and female accountants.

 

[quick-hands]

You also have to define what is “progress?”

If in 1980 some percentage (say 30% for an example) of males in their 30s are misogynist. 

In the 2020s that population group is in their 70s and the percentage of surviving members that are misogynist may be similar.  One might define that as no progress?

But if the new group of males today in their 30s has dropped to 5% that are misogynist that is a win. Even if those old dudes are still around treating women poorly. 

Your avatar is ironic.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I mentioned it today as I saw a man in power dismissing a sitting female senator by referring to her as a meme.  I don't want that to become normal or OK. 

It's always been normal for private citizens to make fun of elected officials.  I don't have any links to back this up, but I vaguely recall people saying unpleasant things to Donald Trump on Twitter from time to time, and that was okay.  I don't want to live in a world where it's not okay to flip off an elected leader.  

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Also, let's be honest.  Elon Musk and Elizabeth Warren both love being in the spotlight, and they both have thick skins.  I can pretty much guarantee that Warren did not hit the fainting couch over being called "senator Karen" on social media.  She probably had forgotten about that whole exchange by lunch time.  I have a low opinion of Elizabeth Warren, but even I recognize that she doesn't need a white knight here.