Missing Element-Brett Favre & The Packers (3 Viewers)

[Mr.Pack]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

Ok genius, how many 1st year QB's are named to the Pro-Bowl?Rodgers is ranked 4th in the NFC in QBs with a 91.8 rating, 23TDs and 12 Ints. How do Favres stats this season stack up??Keep trying, you're good for comedy relief tho.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

Ok genius, how many 1st year QB's are named to the Pro-Bowl?Rodgers is ranked 4th in the NFC in QBs with a 91.8 rating, 23TDs and 12 Ints. How do Favres stats this season stack up??Keep trying, you're good for comedy relief tho.

Ok, genius....Rodgers is in this 4th season with the Packers. I see that the Jets are 9-5 and the Packers are 5-9.Favre's season= Pro BowlRodger's season= No Pro Bowl at this time.Here are a few more tidbits for you Mr. Pack.- One more loss means this Packers team will set the 90-year team record for biggest drop-off in victories from one season to the next, a sobering record of ineffectiveness.-- Two more losses would mean a 1-8 finish, the worst over the final nine games of a season in 50 years and tied for the worst in the history of the team. Even during the lean years, coach Dan Devine never finished worse than 2-5-2. Bart Starr, Forrest Gregg and Lindy Infante, meanwhile, never finished worse than 2-7 as head coaches. This year’s team needs one more victory just to reach that dreadful level.Oh, and I read today that Wayne Larrivee stated on WTMJ last week that the team is missing Favre's leadership. I'm sure you guys will try and rip on the voice of the Packers for those comments.Lastly for the TT supporters...I read but this isn't confirmed that the Packers lead the league in draft picks over the last few years and the number of those players that are starters is the lowest percentage of any GM in the NFL. (this is only rumor so far but I found it interesting if it is true)

 

[hauser42]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

Well you need to realize that the Pro Bowl is a joke and that the best players are not always in the game and a lot of them get in on past years and not the current year stats. This Packer team has lost a lot of close games this year and will have a loosing record. This spells of a turn around next year. Playing lesser teams with more experience team and with less injuries should mean a winning season. Also would help if some coaching changes were made to push the players to be more accountable. Than all this TT made a mistake will go away and there will be praise for Ted and more bashing of Favre.I dont disagree that Favre was a great leader on the field but, in the locker room he was a the Clown Prince for the most part. When he did speak however the whole team took it to heart as it was done very seldom over his years with the Packers.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

I dont disagree that Favre was a great leader on the field.

Good for you! Thanks.

 

[zDragon]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

I never stated there was or was not. I simply asked you to prove your side of the debate with someone else.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

Ok genius, how many 1st year QB's are named to the Pro-Bowl?Rodgers is ranked 4th in the NFC in QBs with a 91.8 rating, 23TDs and 12 Ints. How do Favres stats this season stack up??Keep trying, you're good for comedy relief tho.

Brett Favre made the Pro Bowl in his first season with the Packers and the next season too.

 

[hauser42]

Lastly for the TT supporters...I read but this isn't confirmed that the Packers lead the league in draft picks over the last few years and the number of those players that are starters is the lowest percentage of any GM in the NFL. (this is only rumor so far but I found it interesting if it is true)

Okay I was only going to post once in this thread, but when these things get posted without all the facts there needs to be something to clear the muddy waters.

It is true that the draft picks are a lot and not many starters. But there was a lot of solid talent starters when TT took over, but the deep was dental floss thin on the team and draft picks were needed to get some talented depth on this team.

RB: Jackson and Wynn have both given to this team at times. Grant came in a trade so he is out for this issue.

FB: K. Hall has done a solid job and was a converted LB, for those that think TT has little eye for talent.

WR: Jennings, Jones, Nelson. Three words do it.

TE. Finley is raw, but this is not a very good group at this point.

QB: Rodgers gets chance at being the man. Decent start but still needs work. Brohm or Flynn are future trade bait. Ron Wolf move it there ever was one. A. Brooks, Brunnell, Ty Detmer ring a bell.

OL. Colledge and Spitz are sarters but need to get better. Moll, Stitton, and Barbe get talked about having futures but need to step it up next year. IMO new scheme needs to be put in and Tauscher and Cliffy shown the door.

DL HELP HELP HELP needed !!!

LB Poppigna and Hawk are starters and with a better scheme would make plays.

CB Blackmon and Lee are solid young talents. Blackmon has been great in the return game. Williams FA so he doesn't count.

S. Rouse and Collins both picks and besides taking poor angles from time to time are solid ball hawks for the team.

% maybe low but when Driver, both tackles and Wells are all shown the door soon it will go up. This team is ready to fill in the gaps of older players with guys on the roster. TT will have a higher picks this year and should know that he needs to concentrate on a few areas to make this team better.

 

[ScottyFargo]

[“He’s just a real cool guy to be around,” said Roman. “He’s a guy who boosts morale in the locker room and helps you believe that you can win when you are on the offensive side of the ball. I’m sure his receivers feel that there isn’t any place he can’t pull the ball, so I have to stay alive, I have to keep working, because in any given situation he can get the ball. You tend to believe in a guy like that. Obviously with them turning it around like they have this year, a lot of guys on offense are believing in him.”

So, am I to assume that the Packers don't think they can win when Rodgers is in the huddle. I'm still kind of curious how that actually manifests itself on the playing field this season.How does Roman explain Chad Penninton?

Maybe they don't or they'd have won any of the seven chances they've had to come from behind?

I'm curious. Did the players on some of those not-so-winning Favre led teams stop considering Favre a leader when he failed to pull out a win? Did Favre's leadership take a hit after the NFC Championship game and others when he (arguably) lost it for them?Surely we wouldn't be talking about another double standard.

I don't see how it's a double standard if Rodgers is 0-7 on attempts to win when he was behind and Favre has, you know, actually won games from behind. Obviously the Packers office lost faith in Favre after his inability in the NFC Championship game last season which is why he is now playing for the Jets.

True, at a 23-69 clip.Most impressive

So I was right to assume that Favre would have won two of the seven, while Rodgers hasn't won any. I am sure he can catch up, but that could possibly be the difference between a losing season and a winning one this year.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Lastly for the TT supporters...I read but this isn't confirmed that the Packers lead the league in draft picks over the last few years and the number of those players that are starters is the lowest percentage of any GM in the NFL. (this is only rumor so far but I found it interesting if it is true)

Okay I was only going to post once in this thread, but when these things get posted without all the facts there needs to be something to clear the muddy waters.

It is true that the draft picks are a lot and not many starters. But there was a lot of solid talent starters when TT took over, but the deep was dental floss thin on the team and draft picks were needed to get some talented depth on this team.

RB: Jackson and Wynn have both given to this team at times. Grant came in a trade so he is out for this issue.

FB: K. Hall has done a solid job and was a converted LB, for those that think TT has little eye for talent.

WR: Jennings, Jones, Nelson. Three words do it.

TE. Finley is raw, but this is not a very good group at this point.

QB: Rodgers gets chance at being the man. Decent start but still needs work. Brohm or Flynn are future trade bait. Ron Wolf move it there ever was one. A. Brooks, Brunnell, Ty Detmer ring a bell.

OL. Colledge and Spitz are sarters but need to get better. Moll, Stitton, and Barbe get talked about having futures but need to step it up next year. IMO new scheme needs to be put in and Tauscher and Cliffy shown the door.

DL HELP HELP HELP needed !!!

LB Poppigna and Hawk are starters and with a better scheme would make plays.

CB Blackmon and Lee are solid young talents. Blackmon has been great in the return game. Williams FA so he doesn't count.

S. Rouse and Collins both picks and besides taking poor angles from time to time are solid ball hawks for the team.

% maybe low but when Driver, both tackles and Wells are all shown the door soon it will go up. This team is ready to fill in the gaps of older players with guys on the roster. TT will have a higher picks this year and should know that he needs to concentrate on a few areas to make this team better.

I hope he does because he needs a great draft and to get things turned around next season otherwise he may not be there much after that.

 

[GreenNGold]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

Ok genius, how many 1st year QB's are named to the Pro-Bowl?Rodgers is ranked 4th in the NFC in QBs with a 91.8 rating, 23TDs and 12 Ints. How do Favres stats this season stack up??Keep trying, you're good for comedy relief tho.

Brett Favre made the Pro Bowl in his first season with the Packers and the next season too.

 

[parasaurolophus]

[“He’s just a real cool guy to be around,” said Roman. “He’s a guy who boosts morale in the locker room and helps you believe that you can win when you are on the offensive side of the ball. I’m sure his receivers feel that there isn’t any place he can’t pull the ball, so I have to stay alive, I have to keep working, because in any given situation he can get the ball. You tend to believe in a guy like that. Obviously with them turning it around like they have this year, a lot of guys on offense are believing in him.”

So, am I to assume that the Packers don't think they can win when Rodgers is in the huddle. I'm still kind of curious how that actually manifests itself on the playing field this season.How does Roman explain Chad Penninton?

Maybe they don't or they'd have won any of the seven chances they've had to come from behind?

I'm curious. Did the players on some of those not-so-winning Favre led teams stop considering Favre a leader when he failed to pull out a win? Did Favre's leadership take a hit after the NFC Championship game and others when he (arguably) lost it for them?Surely we wouldn't be talking about another double standard.

I don't see how it's a double standard if Rodgers is 0-7 on attempts to win when he was behind and Favre has, you know, actually won games from behind. Obviously the Packers office lost faith in Favre after his inability in the NFC Championship game last season which is why he is now playing for the Jets.

True, at a 23-69 clip.Most impressive

what is favre's record the last two years?This year?

Rodgers?

 

[sho nuff]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

They made some big plays...but they still were not a good unit.Having some good individuals does not make it a good unit.And most agree Collins should not be in there.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

Nobody is ignoring the leadership he brought...we are simply saying you overestimate its effect on the record of the team.And quit saying I have issues with him.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.

I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

And most agree Collins should not be in there.

 

[sho nuff]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro Bowl

Aaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.

Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.

And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

And most agree Collins should not be in there.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=448019And for the Favre part...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_...?urn=nfl,129633

 

[Stinger Ray]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

Nobody is ignoring the leadership he brought...we are simply saying you overestimate its effect on the record of the team.And quit saying I have issues with him.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.

I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

You have issues with him and the entire board knows it. Don't backpeddle now and try and state I overestimated its effect on the record of the team. I never stated anything like that. I had to defend the leadership Favre brought to the Packers because people like you and James the skate were doing everything you could to try and diminish the leadership factor Favre brought to the Packers. You now will spin, and spin away but that is exactly what you were doing here. Every media and NFL expert will testify that Favre was a great leader and the Packers own broadcaster has stated that the team is missing Favre's leadership yet we guys like you that will actually try and deny that.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro Bowl

Aaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.

Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.

And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

And most agree Collins should not be in there.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=448019

Classic sho spin. I see 3-4 mentions of Collins in those 3 pages and you were quoted as saying...."Most agree Collins should not be in there"

Spin.......spin....spin.....sho!!!!! you really are a piece of work.

 

[jurrassic]

This read has become useless, and obnoxious.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

Well...considering you admit you have issues with him above and then state "I don't have issues with him" would prove it really isn't a lame idea for people on this board to think you do have issues with him.

 

[Da Guru]

The bottom line is that Farve was in GB forever, had a great career in GB and whenever he left be it last year or this year there was going to be a hangover effect, an adjustment period. Lets be real, unitl last year "unexpected" success Farve was getting a little heat from the fans as well.

It was the same when Elway left Denver, it will be the same when Manning leaves Indy.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

Nobody is ignoring the leadership he brought...we are simply saying you overestimate its effect on the record of the team.And quit saying I have issues with him.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.

I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

You have issues with him and the entire board knows it. Don't backpeddle now and try and state I overestimated its effect on the record of the team. I never stated anything like that. I had to defend the leadership Favre brought to the Packers because people like you and James the skate were doing everything you could to try and diminish the leadership factor Favre brought to the Packers. You now will spin, and spin away but that is exactly what you were doing here. Every media and NFL expert will testify that Favre was a great leader and the Packers own broadcaster has stated that the team is missing Favre's leadership yet we guys like you that will actually try and deny that.

Im not backpeddling, Ive been saying that nearly this entire thread that people are overestimating the importance of it...and if its not dealing with the record of the current team...whats the point?No, we really were not trying to diminish it at all..but you keep telling yourself that. Nope, I won't spin. I have stated my case, stated why I felt that way and stated exactly what I was referring to.

Not once have I disagreed that Favre was a great leader or that the team is not missing that leadership...so where did I try to deny that? Oh wait...I never did. And you want to say Im spinning? Hah!!! Though, not sure if that is spin or just an outright lie from you.

 

[sho nuff]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro Bowl

Aaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.

Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.

And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

And most agree Collins should not be in there.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=448019

Classic sho spin. I see 3-4 mentions of Collins in those 3 pages and you were quoted as saying...."Most agree Collins should not be in there"

Spin.......spin....spin.....sho!!!!! you really are a piece of work.

Yes...most agree...as in I don't see anyone saying...yeah, the guy should be in there and deserves it.Nice attmempt though.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

Well...considering you admit you have issues with him above and then state "I don't have issues with him" would prove it really isn't a lame idea for people on this board to think you do have issues with him.

You all want a lesson in spin...here it is.Taking a comment that I had issues with how he did something...and claiming it means I have issues with him.

Its not the same thing.

Its akin to me saying I hate how my son acts some time...then you claiming I hate my son.

Its pure spin by you.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

Nobody is ignoring the leadership he brought...we are simply saying you overestimate its effect on the record of the team.And quit saying I have issues with him.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.

I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

You have issues with him and the entire board knows it. Don't backpeddle now and try and state I overestimated its effect on the record of the team. I never stated anything like that. I had to defend the leadership Favre brought to the Packers because people like you and James the skate were doing everything you could to try and diminish the leadership factor Favre brought to the Packers. You now will spin, and spin away but that is exactly what you were doing here. Every media and NFL expert will testify that Favre was a great leader and the Packers own broadcaster has stated that the team is missing Favre's leadership yet we guys like you that will actually try and deny that.

Im not backpeddling, Ive been saying that nearly this entire thread that people are overestimating the importance of it...and if its not dealing with the record of the current team...whats the point?No, we really were not trying to diminish it at all..but you keep telling yourself that. Nope, I won't spin. I have stated my case, stated why I felt that way and stated exactly what I was referring to.

Not once have I disagreed that Favre was a great leader or that the team is not missing that leadership...so where did I try to deny that? Oh wait...I never did. And you want to say Im spinning? Hah!!! Though, not sure if that is spin or just an outright lie from you.

Anyone with any grasp of reality that would read your responses in this thread would come away thinking you were trying to diminish the leadership that Favre brought to the team. You implied over and over and over in this thread.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro Bowl

Aaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.

Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.

And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

And most agree Collins should not be in there.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=448019

Classic sho spin. I see 3-4 mentions of Collins in those 3 pages and you were quoted as saying...."Most agree Collins should not be in there"

Spin.......spin....spin.....sho!!!!! you really are a piece of work.

Yes...most agree...as in I don't see anyone saying...yeah, the guy should be in there and deserves it.Nice attmempt though.

The guy should be there and deserves it.

 

[sho nuff]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.I can't very well prove that a lack of leadership is not affecting the team when you can't prove to me that there is a lack of leadership on this team in the first place. See how that works? If you make the first assertion - that there's a lack of leadership on this team, it's your responsibility to prove it or admit it's just an unsupported opinion. I don't buy your underlying premise in other words.

Of course, I probably couldn't prove that there's a lack of leadership either even if I believed there was, so don't feel bad. But this is the very reason why I remain skeptical about how much "leadership" actually affects NFL players (to the good or to the bad)...because there is scant evidence to support it either way.

Leadership is an intangible and tough to measure. There were numerous quotes and articles about Favre and leadership in this thread and you ignore them all.Anyone with common sense knows how important leadership is in life and in sports. When you read about successful organizations or winning teams you will hear about examples of leadership and how important it is.

The fact you want to ignore the leadership Favre brought to the Packers is because you and sho have issues with him. That is fine but don't act ignorant and try to diminish how important leadership is in sports and in life.

Nobody is ignoring the leadership he brought...we are simply saying you overestimate its effect on the record of the team.And quit saying I have issues with him.

I have issues with how he went about things with retirement and in the months after that.

I don't have issues with him. You really need to get over that lame idea.

You have issues with him and the entire board knows it. Don't backpeddle now and try and state I overestimated its effect on the record of the team. I never stated anything like that. I had to defend the leadership Favre brought to the Packers because people like you and James the skate were doing everything you could to try and diminish the leadership factor Favre brought to the Packers. You now will spin, and spin away but that is exactly what you were doing here. Every media and NFL expert will testify that Favre was a great leader and the Packers own broadcaster has stated that the team is missing Favre's leadership yet we guys like you that will actually try and deny that.

Im not backpeddling, Ive been saying that nearly this entire thread that people are overestimating the importance of it...and if its not dealing with the record of the current team...whats the point?No, we really were not trying to diminish it at all..but you keep telling yourself that. Nope, I won't spin. I have stated my case, stated why I felt that way and stated exactly what I was referring to.

Not once have I disagreed that Favre was a great leader or that the team is not missing that leadership...so where did I try to deny that? Oh wait...I never did. And you want to say Im spinning? Hah!!! Though, not sure if that is spin or just an outright lie from you.

Anyone with any grasp of reality that would read your responses in this thread would come away thinking you were trying to diminish the leadership that Favre brought to the team. You implied over and over and over in this thread.

No, those with a grasp of reality understand the point being made. Others (you, phase, ookie) will continue to sling mud because you don't have anything else.I implied nothing and have stated several times that he was a great leader and so on. You simply have nothing to base your conclusion on other than your opinion of me.

 

[sho nuff]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro Bowl

Aaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.

Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.

And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

And most agree Collins should not be in there.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=448019

Classic sho spin. I see 3-4 mentions of Collins in those 3 pages and you were quoted as saying...."Most agree Collins should not be in there"

Spin.......spin....spin.....sho!!!!! you really are a piece of work.

Yes...most agree...as in I don't see anyone saying...yeah, the guy should be in there and deserves it.Nice attmempt though.

The guy should be there and deserves it.

Im glad you think so...most (meaning more people think he should not be than think he should be) disagree with you.His big plays were nice, and what got him in...but it ignores the other misses he has had. The poor angles at times, getting beat deep...and so on.

Many vote on the probowl based on stats alone...read a stat sheet for positions they don't know someone...and thats it.

Anyway, I don't think you will find too many that think he is a pro bowler in his play right now.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

A very interesting article as the Packers fall to 5-9.

3 times as many losses as last year, with very little turnover. Very weird.

Extremely disappointing to see a Super Bowl contender turned to rubbish in less than a year. Hopefully Thompson can rebound next year because he's had a horrible year as a GM in 2008.

Didn't the coaching staff support the ouster of Favre as well?

Does anyone think this defense was playing any less hard today trying to win in the end?Does anyone think Grant and Kuhn were not trying as hard to get that first down on 3 straight runs today?

Classic sho nonsense.

Wo...you think the defense was not playing as hard today in the end? That they would have played harder for Favre?

It is amazing the crap you come up with. There is not one person that stated the defense would have played harder for Favre. You are very ignorant if you are missing the point of the article and then trying to spin it like you always do with this nonsense. Did you know the offense scored only 16 points today?

Im spinning nothing. One of the biggest intangibles discussed was how others would play for him.And Im not seeing anyone on this team not giving effort because Brett is not there.

 

[sho nuff]

And your point.

Is there anything in that quote that says I think Rodgers is on the same level as far as leadership?

Again...if anyone wants the definition of spin...Ookie is providing it to you free of charge with this one.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

The claim isn't that Rodgers is a better leader than Favre, it's the opposite. So that's why I ask, of that huge essay you posted, can you point to anything that Favre does than Rodgers does not? Anything in there that would explain why these packers would be playing better if Favre was providing leadership rather than Rodgers?And that part about making decisions and living with the consequences and not making excuses or justifications is golden. I bet when Rodgers retires, he'll be more decisive than Favre was. At least Favre is leading in the excuses and justifications column.

This is easy. First, you are underestimating what a leader means to a team. What effect that player has, not only to his side of the ball, but the team in general.Second, players respect Favre, offense, defense, opponents respect what he brought to the table. With that respect came an urgency to play better because that leader made the team better.Lastly, when Favre stepped onto the field, the team, the opponents saw a guy who could win the game at any time in the last drive. Favre could beat any team, at any time. The opponents knew this and the team knew this. That same sense of urgency is not there with Rodgers... at all.

This is exactly what I addressed earlier in this thread.Does anyone actually believe the players out there this past Sunday, were not trying to play better because Aaron Rodgers was back there and not Brett Favre?

 

[JamesTheScot]

I simply asked you to prove your side of the debate with someone else.

Which is evidence that my point went completely over your head.I'll say it slow.You...can't...prove...that...Favre's...leadership...makes...any...significant...difference...in...what...happens...on...the...playing...field.Nor...can...you...prove...that...Rodgers...lacks...leadership.All...you...can...do...is...assert...an...unsupported...opinion...that...leadership...could...make...a...difference...in...the...Packers'...record...this...season...with...no...evidence...to...back...it...up.When my position is that something can't be proven, I'd think you'd recognize how ridiculous it is to ask me to prove that something can't be proven.But I'll give you the same opportunity I've given others. Favre himself gave a list of things he said it takes to be a leader. Can you identify anything on Favre's own list that Rodgers isn't doing?Understand, I'm skeptical about how much leadership actually affects play on the field. So my position isn't that Favre's list is legit.I'm saying that if YOU think Favre's leadership makes a difference this year in Green Bay, would you think that Favre might be the one to ask about leadership?If so, wouldn't his list be a good tool to use to meaure up Rodgers?So how does Rodgers measure up using Favre's own list?So far, I haven't gotten an answer from anyone on that.

 

[zDragon]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

They made some big plays...but they still were not a good unit.Having some good individuals does not make it a good unit.And most agree Collins should not be in there.

Hey I'm with you on the pro-bowl voting being a sham. I'm just saying it's interesting two from the defense made it but none from the offense.Just saying hmmmmm.....

 

[sho nuff]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

They made some big plays...but they still were not a good unit.Having some good individuals does not make it a good unit.And most agree Collins should not be in there.

Hey I'm with you on the pro-bowl voting being a sham. I'm just saying it's interesting two from the defense made it but none from the offense.Just saying hmmmmm.....

Well, the line should not make it...some have made a case for Rodgers...I have not agreed with that.Jennings has a case...but the NFC is loaded at WR. Its not that Jennings has not had a pro bowl type year or does not have the talent...just the luck of the draw of being in the NFC this year.Do you think he or Calvin Johnson would be in if they had the same kind of seasons in the AFC right now? I think they would be shoe ins over Marshall, Welker, and Wayne.But can see why they were behind Fitz, Boldin, Smith, and White. Hard to drop any of them.

 

[JamesTheScot]

The claim isn't that Rodgers is a better leader than Favre, it's the opposite. So that's why I ask, of that huge essay you posted, can you point to anything that Favre does than Rodgers does not? Anything in there that would explain why these packers would be playing better if Favre was providing leadership rather than Rodgers?And that part about making decisions and living with the consequences and not making excuses or justifications is golden. I bet when Rodgers retires, he'll be more decisive than Favre was. At least Favre is leading in the excuses and justifications column.

This is easy. First, you are underestimating what a leader means to a team. What effect that player has, not only to his side of the ball, but the team in general.Second, players respect Favre, offense, defense, opponents respect what he brought to the table. With that respect came an urgency to play better because that leader made the team better.Lastly, when Favre stepped onto the field, the team, the opponents saw a guy who could win the game at any time in the last drive. Favre could beat any team, at any time. The opponents knew this and the team knew this. That same sense of urgency is not there with Rodgers... at all.

This is exactly what I addressed earlier in this thread.Does anyone actually believe the players out there this past Sunday, were not trying to play better because Aaron Rodgers was back there and not Brett Favre?

Sho, just another reassertion of the same old premise with no support or evidence in support...from the school of "If I Repeat It Enough, Even A Lie Will Be Believed As Truth".I love how opponents knew that Favre could win the game at any time in the last drive! Maybe that should be corrected to say "opponents knew that Favre had a 25% chance of winning the game on that last drive" which is more in line with the actual data.I also love the "Favre could beat any team, at any time"...I guess except when he didn't. I guess he just didn't want to in those instances?Funny how what's "obvious" somehow disconnects and grows beyond what is actually there. Paul Bunyon may have been a lumberjack and may have been a big guy. As for the rest of the legend...

 

[Stinger Ray]

The claim isn't that Rodgers is a better leader than Favre, it's the opposite. So that's why I ask, of that huge essay you posted, can you point to anything that Favre does than Rodgers does not? Anything in there that would explain why these packers would be playing better if Favre was providing leadership rather than Rodgers?And that part about making decisions and living with the consequences and not making excuses or justifications is golden. I bet when Rodgers retires, he'll be more decisive than Favre was. At least Favre is leading in the excuses and justifications column.

This is easy. First, you are underestimating what a leader means to a team. What effect that player has, not only to his side of the ball, but the team in general.Second, players respect Favre, offense, defense, opponents respect what he brought to the table. With that respect came an urgency to play better because that leader made the team better.Lastly, when Favre stepped onto the field, the team, the opponents saw a guy who could win the game at any time in the last drive. Favre could beat any team, at any time. The opponents knew this and the team knew this. That same sense of urgency is not there with Rodgers... at all.

This is exactly what I addressed earlier in this thread.Does anyone actually believe the players out there this past Sunday, were not trying to play better because Aaron Rodgers was back there and not Brett Favre?

I also love the "Favre could beat any team, at any time"...I guess except when he didn't. I guess he just didn't want to in those instances?

I don't think anyone was quoted saying that. Since you can't grasp what leadership means......A good leader inspires other men and women with confidence. A great leader inspires them with confidence in themselves. - Reed Markham, American author "Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." --Vince Lombardi"Leadership rests not only upon ability, not only upon capacity; having the capacity to lead is not enough. The leader must be willing to use it. His leadership is then based on truth and character. There must be truth in the purpose and will power in the character." --Vince Lombardi"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." --Tom Landry“When all is said and done, a leader must exercise an effective influence and the degree he accomplishes this depends upon the personality of the man. The incandescence of which he is capable; the flame which burns within him; the magnetism which draws the hearts of men towards him.” --Vince Lombardi“Leadership is getting players to believe in you. If you tell a teammate you're ready to play as tough as you're able to, you'd better go out there and do it. Players will see right through a phony. And they can tell when you're not giving it all you've got. Leadership is diving for a loose ball, getting the crowd involved, getting other players involved. It's being able to take it as well as dish it out. That's the only way you're going to get respect from the players.” --Larry Bird

 

[zDragon]

Brett Favre- named to the Pro BowlAaron Rodgers--still waiting

That he was...but so were two members of a bad GB defense.Woodson deserved it...Collins made it on some big plays early in the year...lately, you only hear his name if he is getting burned.Oh...and Rivers got hosed by being on a bad team.And nobody thought Rodgers would make it anyway.

Maybe the defense isn't as bad as some would like you to think. Two pro bowlers. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.....

They made some big plays...but they still were not a good unit.Having some good individuals does not make it a good unit.And most agree Collins should not be in there.

Hey I'm with you on the pro-bowl voting being a sham. I'm just saying it's interesting two from the defense made it but none from the offense.Just saying hmmmmm.....

Well, the line should not make it...some have made a case for Rodgers...I have not agreed with that.Jennings has a case...but the NFC is loaded at WR. Its not that Jennings has not had a pro bowl type year or does not have the talent...just the luck of the draw of being in the NFC this year.Do you think he or Calvin Johnson would be in if they had the same kind of seasons in the AFC right now? I think they would be shoe ins over Marshall, Welker, and Wayne.But can see why they were behind Fitz, Boldin, Smith, and White. Hard to drop any of them.

They are not there so no need to argue the point.

 

[zDragon]

The claim isn't that Rodgers is a better leader than Favre, it's the opposite. So that's why I ask, of that huge essay you posted, can you point to anything that Favre does than Rodgers does not? Anything in there that would explain why these packers would be playing better if Favre was providing leadership rather than Rodgers?And that part about making decisions and living with the consequences and not making excuses or justifications is golden. I bet when Rodgers retires, he'll be more decisive than Favre was. At least Favre is leading in the excuses and justifications column.

This is easy. First, you are underestimating what a leader means to a team. What effect that player has, not only to his side of the ball, but the team in general.Second, players respect Favre, offense, defense, opponents respect what he brought to the table. With that respect came an urgency to play better because that leader made the team better.Lastly, when Favre stepped onto the field, the team, the opponents saw a guy who could win the game at any time in the last drive. Favre could beat any team, at any time. The opponents knew this and the team knew this. That same sense of urgency is not there with Rodgers... at all.

This is exactly what I addressed earlier in this thread.Does anyone actually believe the players out there this past Sunday, were not trying to play better because Aaron Rodgers was back there and not Brett Favre?

I also love the "Favre could beat any team, at any time"...I guess except when he didn't. I guess he just didn't want to in those instances?

I don't think anyone was quoted saying that. Since you can't grasp what leadership means......A good leader inspires other men and women with confidence. A great leader inspires them with confidence in themselves. - Reed Markham, American author "Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." --Vince Lombardi"Leadership rests not only upon ability, not only upon capacity; having the capacity to lead is not enough. The leader must be willing to use it. His leadership is then based on truth and character. There must be truth in the purpose and will power in the character." --Vince Lombardi"Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." --Tom Landry“When all is said and done, a leader must exercise an effective influence and the degree he accomplishes this depends upon the personality of the man. The incandescence of which he is capable; the flame which burns within him; the magnetism which draws the hearts of men towards him.” --Vince Lombardi“Leadership is getting players to believe in you. If you tell a teammate you're ready to play as tough as you're able to, you'd better go out there and do it. Players will see right through a phony. And they can tell when you're not giving it all you've got. Leadership is diving for a loose ball, getting the crowd involved, getting other players involved. It's being able to take it as well as dish it out. That's the only way you're going to get respect from the players.” --Larry Bird

Although, I'm sure those guys wouldn't know anything about the MYTH of leadership. I mean after all what did they ever accomplish in life.

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

crickets or spin coming.

 

[Stinger Ray]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

 

[BeaverCleaver]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

 

[Stinger Ray]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

 

[zDragon]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

That's why I didn't bother to reply.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

How can one "go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done" yet you state"I diminish the toughts and opinions of others"

Guess what genius.....that is going through lengths to diminish what the guy has done in the opinion of others.

Now....this is where you tell us that you "never spin" too.

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Im not claiming they are not missing his freakin leadership...can you please stop stating that complete and total lie? I doubt it.Favre not being there has not made a Packers player play worse. You have absolutely nothing to support this.

This is my point.

Its not spin...spin is your continued attempts at painting my words to mean something completely different than what I said.

You are completely full of it.

Exactly, its completely intangible and you have no idea how much of a difference it made.

I have not attempted to diminish what Favre actually meant (that is your spin).

I have stated I believe you all are overestimating the effect it had on the team.

But you will never understand that...it does not fit with your opinion of me...so instead you spin and lie.

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

That's why I didn't bother to reply.

I simply laugh at what some of you consider good postings.The guy spreads a complete lie and complete spin...makes some comments that I spin (when its been shown his argument is complete spin)...and it gets a good posting.

Again...and I don't recall how many times Ive now said this.

Favre was a great player...a great leader...but it is my opinion that many of you overestimate the effect it had. While the Packers are missing it...he and his leadership were, IMO, not enough to make this current Packer team into a contender.

Not one quote or conversation on Mike and Mike has come close to even disagreeing or refuting my opinion on this.

Instead...you all twist my argument...make claims that Im diminishing what he meant...and claim Im ignoring his leadership.

 

[Phase of the Game]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

That's why I didn't bother to reply.

I simply laugh at what some of you consider good postings.The guy spreads a complete lie and complete spin...makes some comments that I spin (when its been shown his argument is complete spin)...and it gets a good posting.

Again...and I don't recall how many times Ive now said this.

Favre was a great player...a great leader...but it is my opinion that many of you overestimate the effect it had. While the Packers are missing it...he and his leadership were, IMO, not enough to make this current Packer team into a contender.

Not one quote or conversation on Mike and Mike has come close to even disagreeing or refuting my opinion on this.

Instead...you all twist my argument...make claims that Im diminishing what he meant...and claim Im ignoring his leadership.

Classic backpeddle!

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

That's why I didn't bother to reply.

I simply laugh at what some of you consider good postings.The guy spreads a complete lie and complete spin...makes some comments that I spin (when its been shown his argument is complete spin)...and it gets a good posting.

Again...and I don't recall how many times Ive now said this.

Favre was a great player...a great leader...but it is my opinion that many of you overestimate the effect it had. While the Packers are missing it...he and his leadership were, IMO, not enough to make this current Packer team into a contender.

Not one quote or conversation on Mike and Mike has come close to even disagreeing or refuting my opinion on this.

Instead...you all twist my argument...make claims that Im diminishing what he meant...and claim Im ignoring his leadership.

Classic backpeddle!

Care to link where I have said anything different?I bet you can't.

I have not said he was not a great leader.

That he did not mean a thing to the Packers in that role.

I have said over and over it will not be enough.

It was not a backpedal...it was restating, again, what I have numerous times throughout these threads.

 

[zDragon]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Im not claiming they are not missing his freakin leadership...can you please stop stating that complete and total lie? I doubt it.Favre not being there has not made a Packers player play worse. You have absolutely nothing to support this.

This is my point.

Its not spin...spin is your continued attempts at painting my words to mean something completely different than what I said.

You are completely full of it.

Exactly, its completely intangible and you have no idea how much of a difference it made.

I have not attempted to diminish what Favre actually meant (that is your spin).

I have stated I believe you all are overestimating the effect it had on the team.

But you will never understand that...it does not fit with your opinion of me...so instead you spin and lie.

"He was a leader to us also,He's Brett Favre. That's saying enough right there. We tried to play at his level. We did that for the most part. I don't know if there's a void (now). We've just got to adapt. He's not here anymore, 'OK, we have to find a way to win.' "cornerback Jarrett Bush said of the defense.

"I think one thing you have to understand, Brett never spoke,He was never one of those guys who was verbal. He just played. That's how he led. I think that's how some guys think that's their leadership. That was 4. He never said anything to guys. He just went out there and played. Guys, they looked at it and said that's how they're going to perform."

Receiver Donald Driver

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Im not claiming they are not missing his freakin leadership...can you please stop stating that complete and total lie? I doubt it.Favre not being there has not made a Packers player play worse. You have absolutely nothing to support this.

This is my point.

Its not spin...spin is your continued attempts at painting my words to mean something completely different than what I said.

You are completely full of it.

Exactly, its completely intangible and you have no idea how much of a difference it made.

I have not attempted to diminish what Favre actually meant (that is your spin).

I have stated I believe you all are overestimating the effect it had on the team.

But you will never understand that...it does not fit with your opinion of me...so instead you spin and lie.

"He was a leader to us also,He's Brett Favre. That's saying enough right there. We tried to play at his level. We did that for the most part. I don't know if there's a void (now). We've just got to adapt. He's not here anymore, 'OK, we have to find a way to win.' "cornerback Jarrett Bush said of the defense.

"I think one thing you have to understand, Brett never spoke,He was never one of those guys who was verbal. He just played. That's how he led. I think that's how some guys think that's their leadership. That was 4. He never said anything to guys. He just went out there and played. Guys, they looked at it and said that's how they're going to perform."

Receiver Donald Driver

"I don't know if there is a void now."And nothing in that quote saying they are not trying hard or are trying any less with Rodgers.

same with Driver.

So I will count that 0 for 2 in showing that players are not playing hard for Rodgers and they just did it for Favre.