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MJD vs. Ryan Grant (1 Viewer)
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
Kind of surprised by that. You think Grant won't get a whole lot of receptions from Rodgers??? Favre could air it out, the knack on Rodgers has always been that he doesn't have the long ball. Not to mention the typical "security blanket" argument about a young QB and his TE... I think that argument can be made for a RB as well.I voted for Grant because I'm a homer.
But, the argument for MDJ: have people forgotten that GB drafted Jackson with a second round pick? Or that Wynn was "the man" before he got hurt and gave way to Grant? This is the same blocking scheme that produces RB after RB in DEN. As long as they understand the system they can be successful. Wynn proved that he could do it, Grant proved it, and I would not be surprised to see Jackson having a better grasp of the offense.
The bottom line is that we've seen MJD be a stud while sharing the load, but I'm not sure if Grant can. We haven't even seen Grant play a full season! With that comes the risk that he could be a bust next season. Now I do have him ranked top 10, but I think he's the riskiest RB to make your #1 this season. There's just too many ? to go with that. As a #2 RB I think if I had my pick... I don't know. I can see how that would warrant a thread posting!
MJD shares the load with Fred Taylor. Taylor has been healthy lately so you can't really say that he will get hurt anymore. MJD has experience and has shown that he can play at a high level.
Grant could be sharing some load with Wynn and/or Jackson. We could see that offense sputter a bit in the first 5-6 games with Rodgers under center.
If you want my honest opinion, go with the least ?. It it were me I'd probably go with Grant because I love GB. But giving advice to someone else where their money could be on the line, I'd say go with the least risky player. MDJ is that.
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jwb
Footballguy
Grant put up studly numbers in a decent amount of games (I think he started nine or ten games.) Basically, it wasn't just a "last 3 games of the season" clip.
I thought Wynn was "ok", not great - Grant looked much better than Wynn, and I do think he's the guy there (although I did cuff him with Jackson/Wynn in the one league where I own him.)
If I was sitting at pick 14 in a 12-team dynasty startup, I'd probably take MJD if he was there. And if I were at pick 15, I'd be happy the guy in front of me didn't take Grant
I thought Wynn was "ok", not great - Grant looked much better than Wynn, and I do think he's the guy there (although I did cuff him with Jackson/Wynn in the one league where I own him.)
If I was sitting at pick 14 in a 12-team dynasty startup, I'd probably take MJD if he was there. And if I were at pick 15, I'd be happy the guy in front of me didn't take Grant
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Whoever is saying that GB can plug in anybody and succeed obviously didn't watch them the 1st half of last year. They were about as ineffective at running the ball as they come for the 1st half of the season. It wasn't until Grant came along that they had a run game. Was this that easily forgotten?
gianmarco
Footballguy
Week 1 -- 15/40 (BJ)
Week 2 -- 17/35 (BJ)
Week 3 -- 6/22 (BJ)
Week 4 -- 10/20 (DW)
Week 5 -- 13/78 (DW)
Week 6 -- 13/37 (DW)
Week 7 -- bye
Grant took over in week 8. His log:
22/104
19/55
25/119
20/88
15/101
14/94
29/156
18/55
14/100
6/57
His worst game was better than all but 1 of the first 7 weeks by the other 2. I don't think Grant is in any danger of losing his job no matter how high they drafted BJ. Their running game was night and day from 1st half of the season to the 2nd. They were completely ineffective until Grant took over and he never let up, including through the playoffs (which I didn't include).
My only concern with Grant is the loss of Favre, but I think it will only minimally affect him. That being said, I still voted MJD here because the guy is ultra-talented. And this is coming from a big MJD doubter heading into 2007.
Week 2 -- 17/35 (BJ)
Week 3 -- 6/22 (BJ)
Week 4 -- 10/20 (DW)
Week 5 -- 13/78 (DW)
Week 6 -- 13/37 (DW)
Week 7 -- bye
Grant took over in week 8. His log:
22/104
19/55
25/119
20/88
15/101
14/94
29/156
18/55
14/100
6/57
His worst game was better than all but 1 of the first 7 weeks by the other 2. I don't think Grant is in any danger of losing his job no matter how high they drafted BJ. Their running game was night and day from 1st half of the season to the 2nd. They were completely ineffective until Grant took over and he never let up, including through the playoffs (which I didn't include).
My only concern with Grant is the loss of Favre, but I think it will only minimally affect him. That being said, I still voted MJD here because the guy is ultra-talented. And this is coming from a big MJD doubter heading into 2007.
fun-b
Footballguy
I was a major MJD doubter heading into 07, but he put up great numbers again. This poll has been interesting, considering MJD got off to 10-0 lead in votes, but now it's locked up between the two. I do love the uber-potential that MJD has, but I also love that Grant will most likely be a 3-down back next year, easily touching the ball 300-400 times(rushing and receiving).
Football Jones
Footballguy
Talent versus talent, this is no contest. MJD is the much better RB. Grant needs a good OL to succeed. While he's got good size/speed ratio & is a decent pass-catcher, he doesn't create. There's a lot of guys like Ryan Grant in the NFL. All they need is oppurtunity & a good OL. It's not that Grant won't produce if he's the feature back, but the question is if he'll actually be the feature back for all of '08. BTW, I realize MJD isn't a feature back (yet), but he's proven he can produce outstanding FF numbers as the #2. Big difference.
Long-term, I have serious concern whether Grant will be their feature back. I believe Brandon Jackson or an '08 draft pick is a bigger darkhorse than many people think. On the other hand, there's no question MJD will be a feature back (no later than the start of '09). And as I've mentioned already, MJD is the much better talent. This one isn't close, IMO.
Long-term, I have serious concern whether Grant will be their feature back. I believe Brandon Jackson or an '08 draft pick is a bigger darkhorse than many people think. On the other hand, there's no question MJD will be a feature back (no later than the start of '09). And as I've mentioned already, MJD is the much better talent. This one isn't close, IMO.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
So how did Grant succeed last year?
Football Jones
Footballguy
You don't believe Green Bay has a good run-blocking OL? I do. I saw Grant running through huge holes at times last season. In short, you could say my arguement has more to do with pure talent than anything. MJD has much more natural ability, IMO.
Almas_4th_Child
Footballguy
Name one Green Bay Packer skill position player that was better once he left favre?
Still waiting...
The entire offense will go down without lord favre.
Still waiting...
The entire offense will go down without lord favre.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Matt HasselbeckAaron BrooksMark Brunell
fun-b
Footballguy
That is an excellent point. Never thought about that.J. Walker had one decent year in DEN.That's all I can think of.
Chunky Soup
Footballguy
Very surprised this is close. Wow. This should be all MJD.
gianmarco
Footballguy
I think their run blocking was absolutely atrocious. They definitely improved, but they were far from good. In fact, I specifically remember Grant "squeezing" in between tight holes by becoming very compact and squirting through the other side on a couple of his long runs. I'm not arguing MJD vs. Grant per se, as I mentioned above that I believe MJD is more talented and I voted for him easily. But, I honestly don't think the difference overall is as big as some MJD supporters think and I think Grant actually looked VERY good running the ball. He knows how to use his body and just lean or ball up to make his tackling area small and gain positive yardage. Nothing flashy, very subtle, but extremely effective. And yes, I think he created most of his yardage himself. I'll see if I can find some footage of what I'm talking about.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I saw Grant quite a few times & didn't really notice him "getting small", as some RBs do. He's a fairly good "slasher", though. I guess we're seeing different things. The best thing I can say about Grant is he'll likely produce decent numbers as long as he's their feature back. I'm not saying he's horrible or anything.
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Aaronstory
Footballguy
McCarthy was just as resonsible as Favre for Favre's great year in 2007.
AussieOyOyOy
Footballguy
One guy is a starter and the other guy is a back-up behind a very good RB. In a re-draft, this one ain't even close.
gianmarco
Footballguy
I'm sorry, but I just disagree. I don't think he's a slasher at all. The guy is a very straight-line, compact runner with very little waste movements who just accelerates and uses slight weight shifts and changes of direction to get loose. He doesn't juke, he doesn't go laterally, he just moves effortlessly. He reminds me a lot of Emmitt in the way he runs.Watch this video here:
Of note, here are a few comments on some of the runs:
:20---Quick cut to the left and go. No hole but has great vision to cut into open field
:25---Good hole but uses a slight lean to the right for huge gain
:33--- Another hole that closes up quickly, then a quick lean to the right and followed his blocker patiently for extra 5-10 yds
:39 ---Typical Grant run, very little room, just gets small. He gets the ball at the 10 and takes it straight in for the TD.
:44 ---This is the run I had in my head but unfortunately it only shows the end of it. Still, you can see him just "get small" with no wasted movement and squeeze through the last 2 defenders for long run
1:12 -- Another typical run, once he gets through, very little wasted movement and turns it into a huge gain
1:19--- Another perfect example, very little hole, squeezes through, and little leans and slight change of direction
with little wasted movement and turns it into a huge gain
1:47 ---Again, watch him get his pad level down and "get small" and squirt through. There's no juking or slashing, just slight leans and burst through
There are definitely some runs with large holes, but there I think there are more where he created something out of nothing. Maybe others feel differently, but I think GB's run blocking in 2007 was really, really bad. Until week 8, they had NO running game whatsoever and were completely one-dimensional. I don't think the O-line improved drastically heading into week 8. I think Grant came in and did a great job, allowed GB to mix up their play calling, and this in turn made the O-line look better than it was prior to that.
Bottomline, I see a very good pure runner in Ryan Grant. He's not flashy, he doesn't have the cutbacks of a Westbrook or LT nor the power of an LJ. He is just a very efficient runner, much like Emmitt was. He also reminds me some of Fred Taylor as well, but not quite as "explosive" as Fred T. Nonetheless, he is the perfect RB for a ZBS and should continue to be successful in the starting role, even without Favre.
ETA--Here is the run I was talking about. Click on the 4th video from the left
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=2937...&week=REG13
He just disappeared between all those blockers and defenders and burst through the other side.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Actually, I think he was THE most productive back since he took over in week 8. The guy ran for almost 1000 yds in just 10 games.http://www.nfl.com/players/profile?id=00-0022984
Click on the 4th video "Who is.......Ryan Grant"
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I own Grant and would trade him straight up for MJD if the offer was presented.
That said...
That said...
This is crazy. WHY would you bring up needing a good O-line when on the MJD side of the argument? The Jags run-blocking unit has been completely and utterly phenomenal (and is the most underrated unit at any position) the last couple years.There's a reason Fred Taylor set his career highs in YPC when he was 31 and 32 years old. Taylor's career BEST was 4.8 during the prime of his career, and his overall average was much lower. Yet the last two year's he's knocked out 5.0 and 5.4ypc's respectively. Newsflash, RBs don't get better when they hit the 31 and 32 year old mark. Fred Taylor in his prime might've averaged 6.0 ypc behind last year's O-line
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Not forgotten, but at the same time they had ROOKIES in the game. I think with a year under their belt they'll be a little better. Not saying they can plug anyone in, just saying it's the same system that DEN uses that has produced multiple numbers of amazing stats from no-name backs. Perhaps it's possible GBs OL is geling and coming to a point where they may do the same? It's possible no doubt. Not syaing it's true, but just possible.
This doesn't say much because Favre NEVER had any huge WRs to throw to. He made WRs. So yes, when Javon Walker, Antonio Freeman, Andre Rison, Corey Bradford, Antonio Chatman all went to other teams they did absolutely nothing. Very true, Favre made WRs. However the same can't be said about RBs. That's not really fair.The average shelf life of an NFL WR is twice as long as an NFL RB. NFL RBs typically have 5 good years, a good WR can play until he's 35. RBs under Favre that had success were Levens, Bennett, Green, and now Grant. When Bennett left GB for CHI he was 29 years old. He had already been in the league 8 seasons prior- and he was never an all star back by himself either.Levens left when he was 31. Well over the "RB hill" so to speak. Ahman Green had already broken into the spotlight at this point. A. Green left GB last season at the age of 30, one year removed from a complete quad rupture and lots of mileage. He didn't do much last year, but he was hurt. But then again, his expiration date may have already passed as a #1 RB anywaysNow Grant. Sure he did well with Favre, but as someone mentioned before- who did they have starting before Grant? They didn't do well regardless of having "lord Favre" as QB. To say those RBs were bad after leaving GB just because they left Favre is ridiculous. They were over the hill, lots of mileage, not #1 backs anymore. Yes, the offense will suffer without Favre. When you lose one of the best QBs in the game something has to change the following year. But, the way I see it, we also gain a few things. Teams haven't had to worry about Favre actually running on them in like 4-5 years. Rodgers can run the ball better than your average QB. Not saying he's Young or anything, but he's no sitff in the pocket. No one knows what Rodgers will bring to the table. So it's not real fair to say everyone will not perform well next year. For all you know, Rodgers coudl check down to Grant all season, giving Grant huge PPR numbers.
Second only to LT in total yards after week 8
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Like I said before, we're seeing WAY different things. For me, lots of big holes. Sometimes it was so big it shouldn't even be called a hole. That line came together & dominated at times. BTW, when I say "slasher", I don't mean movement. A "slasher" (or my version of it) is someone who can take advantage of a hole, without much lateral movement, using vision & burst. He's fairly good at it. Remember, I didn't say he was terrible. That said, I also believe he's overrated, thus, there's a decent chance he'll eventually lose the feature back role, IMO. Let's agree to disagree.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Not sure what you're saying. I didn't say MJD needed a good OL to be productive (although, he has one).I own Grant and would trade him straight up for MJD if the offer was presented.
That said...
This is crazy. WHY would you bring up needing a good O-line when on the MJD side of the argument? The Jags run-blocking unit has been completely and utterly phenomenal (and is the most underrated unit at any position) the last couple years.There's a reason Fred Taylor set his career highs in YPC when he was 31 and 32 years old. Taylor's career BEST was 4.8 during the prime of his career, and his overall average was much lower. Yet the last two year's he's knocked out 5.0 and 5.4ypc's respectively. Newsflash, RBs don't get better when they hit the 31 and 32 year old mark. Fred Taylor in his prime might've averaged 6.0 ypc behind last year's O-line
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Grant lack of a contract may threw a wrench into his FF value. Grant plans to do offseason workouts but won't sign his minimum tender.
The chances are very low that Grant will holdout. However there is a danger that Grant may ask for too much and the Packers may find a cheaper alternative in the draft. Packers are 25 M under the cap, so they certainly able to pay him whatever he wants. Of course, they don't have to pay him market value since he is an exclusive rights free agent.
The chances are very low that Grant will holdout. However there is a danger that Grant may ask for too much and the Packers may find a cheaper alternative in the draft. Packers are 25 M under the cap, so they certainly able to pay him whatever he wants. Of course, they don't have to pay him market value since he is an exclusive rights free agent.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
No, but you implied that "Grant needs a good OL to succeed" As if to say "Grant needs this to be successful whereas MDJ does not." You implied that MCJ could be thrown on to a team like ARI last year and done just as good because he can create his own holes whereas Grant "needs" an OL to create them for him. But he pointed out that the fact of the matter is, JAC OL has been unbelievable the last couple years. And that Taylor's stats have gone way up after the age of 30 due to that. So one can say that MDJ is benifiting from an amazing OL, boosting his valueTo say Grant needs an OL and MJD doesn't is an ignorant statement. You can't judge what any player would do on another team. You can speculate all you want, but in the end it's just speculation. Grant has a good OL, but MDJ has an even better one, so one would expect MDJ to do better than Grant. There isn't a single RB out there that can run well without a good line. Look at James. Went from all star to nothing from IND to ARI. If you are saying that MDJ doesn't need a good OL to do well, then MDJ is the best RB ever in the history of the NFL.... all good RBs needed good OL to succeed.Not sure what you're saying. I didn't say MJD needed a good OL to be productive (although, he has one).I own Grant and would trade him straight up for MJD if the offer was presented.
That said...
This is crazy. WHY would you bring up needing a good O-line when on the MJD side of the argument? The Jags run-blocking unit has been completely and utterly phenomenal (and is the most underrated unit at any position) the last couple years.There's a reason Fred Taylor set his career highs in YPC when he was 31 and 32 years old. Taylor's career BEST was 4.8 during the prime of his career, and his overall average was much lower. Yet the last two year's he's knocked out 5.0 and 5.4ypc's respectively. Newsflash, RBs don't get better when they hit the 31 and 32 year old mark. Fred Taylor in his prime might've averaged 6.0 ypc behind last year's O-line
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Thanks for splitting hairs.A smart individual can figure out what I meant.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Of course a smart individual can figure it out. You put it wrong several times and probably do it elsewhere on a regular basis. Just trying to help out. Take criticism well, I see.Thanks for splitting hairs.A smart individual can figure out what I meant.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
No, actually a combination of being very mildly dislexic and typing very fast has me switching letters and words around from time to time. Sometimes I will write "the to" instead of "to the" or I will write letters in reverse like MDJ instead of MJD.Glad we cleared that up so we can focus on the real points of my postOf course a smart individual can figure it out. You put it wrong several times and probably do it elsewhere on a regular basis. Just trying to help out. Take criticism well, I see.Thanks for splitting hairs.A smart individual can figure out what I meant.
geoff8695
Footballguy
yes there's a very good chance, because history is incredibly unkind to 32 year old RBs like Fred Taylor and the best part is that even if MJD doesn't take over primary duties you're still virtually assured no worse than a low end RB1 or a high end RB2 for fantasy purposesRoutilla said:
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bonesman
Footballguy
... besides medical bills.*glass jaw*
golfguy
Footballguy
i am sorry but the board is MJD crazy. wayyyyy tooooo much over ranking on him.
in a ppr league it is closer. but no way would i rather have mjd or grant.
grants got good receiving talent and a good line around him. and they will be running the ball MORE with favre retired.
i like MJD don't get me wrong, but the hype on him around these parts is just silly. he hasn't even been able to beat out a 50 yr old running back as the starter.
in a ppr league it is closer. but no way would i rather have mjd or grant.
grants got good receiving talent and a good line around him. and they will be running the ball MORE with favre retired.
i like MJD don't get me wrong, but the hype on him around these parts is just silly. he hasn't even been able to beat out a 50 yr old running back as the starter.
mozzy84
Footballguy
non ppr give me grant everyday, ppr its closer but I still like grant.
MJD had 9 games under 10 points and 6 games under 6 points. MJD only got 167 carries last year and I don't see that changing next season. Also grants 30 catches in 8 games to MJD's 40 in a full season stands out also. Gimme the full time guy in a redraft.
MJD had 9 games under 10 points and 6 games under 6 points. MJD only got 167 carries last year and I don't see that changing next season. Also grants 30 catches in 8 games to MJD's 40 in a full season stands out also. Gimme the full time guy in a redraft.
I went with Grant.
Fantasy Football is about production, and Ryan Grant got an opportunity to produce and he did just that. Numbers don't lie.
I posted this a few minutes ago in the "Addai" thread. But added MJD
Since Fantasy Football is about production, here are some interesting stats:
Grant
215 carries for 1157 yards (5.3 YPC) 11 TDs. 30 Rec for 147 (Includes playoffs) Started 8 games including playoffs
Addai
280 carries for 1115 yards (3.9 YPC) 12 TDs. 50 rec for 431 (Includes playoffs) 3 Tds - Started 16 games including playoffs
MDJ
167 carries for 768 yards (4.6 YPC) 9 TDs. 40 rec for 407 - Started 15 games. He also has 14/48/1 in 2 post season games
Fantasy Football is about production, and Ryan Grant got an opportunity to produce and he did just that. Numbers don't lie.
I posted this a few minutes ago in the "Addai" thread. But added MJD
Since Fantasy Football is about production, here are some interesting stats:
Grant
215 carries for 1157 yards (5.3 YPC) 11 TDs. 30 Rec for 147 (Includes playoffs) Started 8 games including playoffs
Addai
280 carries for 1115 yards (3.9 YPC) 12 TDs. 50 rec for 431 (Includes playoffs) 3 Tds - Started 16 games including playoffs
MDJ
167 carries for 768 yards (4.6 YPC) 9 TDs. 40 rec for 407 - Started 15 games. He also has 14/48/1 in 2 post season games
switz
Footballguy
Quick ? for you, where are your numbers coming from?I just checked NFL.com, and the numbers seem different:
Addai: 261 att, 1,072 yards, 4.1 YPC, 23 long, 12 rush TDs
with playoffs - 274 att, 1115 yards, 4.0 YPC, 12 rush TDs
I took them right off NFL.com. That said I had this posted these comparison in a previous thread a while back. So Addai & Grant's numbers may be slightly different. I did take MJD's numbers off NFL.com site today.
