oso diablo
Footballguy
My post on 10/22 in this thread provided a nice link for Ray Guy info.
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Most Deserving Player Not Yet In the Hall of Fame (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jason Wood
- Start date
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
It’s Swann’s post season accomplishments that got him into the hall of fame.(I guess Timmy Smith will be getting in soon.)
The Pro Football Hall Of Fame is turning into the Cooperstown version. Getting in Canton should be how your career was. It shouldn't be based on:
A few post season games.
Nor should it be based on who he played for.
Q: How many major categroies is Lynn Swann in the top 50?
A: ZERO! It is a travesty that Swann is mentioned as one of the greats of all time. Check out the Bob Hayes stats and try and defend Swann being in before Hayes.
Bob Hayes
Mungo Burrows
Footballguy
:rotflmao: if you're going to name an active player (obviously ignoring the "already eligible" criteria), why wouldn't you at least start with someone like...let's see... How about.... Jerry Rice :rotflmao:Thought I would give this a mid-week bump. Heres is the candidate of the day regarding this subject - which I find to be fascinating and a lightning-rod for compelling, stimulating football discussion.
Todays HOF Candidate: Isaac Bruce
A. Statistical Background
*At only 31, Bruce has already moved into 14th place all time in receptions with 755, (recently passing both Charlie Joiner and Michael Irvin). He will pass James Lofton with 9 more catches.
*He is 13th all time in receiving yards with 11487. If he plays only one more year, he should pass Art Monk and approach Steve Largent territory. If he plays only two more years, he will approach the Top 3 (Rice Brown and Lofton). And then he would only be 33.
* He has averaged over 1000 yards per season over his 11 year career - the ultimate sign of consistent production over an extended period. That includes injury prone seasons in 1997 and 1998 when he only played 17 games total, and his rookie season when he only caught 21 passes in 12 games. Of players with 10 or more seasons, only Jerry Rice can boast such an amazing feat.
*Hes already passed Monk in TD's with 72 (25th all time). Among active players, only Owens, Harrison and Moss are in the top 50 (Unless you consider Rice and Brown "active").
*He has seven 1000 yard seasons and counting
* He already has 7 top "5 finishes" in major statistical categories and is scheduled to finish top 5 in both yards and receptions this year - putting him ahead of such HOF nominees as Brown, Monk, and Irvin
* His gargantuan 1995 season - 119 receptions, 1781 yards and 13 TD's remains one of the greatest seasons of all time for a WR
*He has been a clutch playoff performer, with 4 100-yard days in 8 games. He also had a monster Super Bowl vs the Titans, with 162 yards and the game winning TD
B. Player Performance/Personal Thoughts:
Bruce has been a great player to WATCH over the years - runs great routes, has excellent hands (aside from last nights two fumbles :rotflmaoand most notably, makes his job look easy. His postseason play has been excellent and is noteworthy. He has stayed on one team throughout his career, which never hurts. To his discredit, he made some controversial comments about Chiefs LB Derrick Thomas a few years back that angered a lot of people. That may work against him.
C. Recommendation
With regards to statistics, Bruce's resume already meets HOF requirements. If he plays until hes 38 like so many other WR's, he will surpass every WR not named Jerry Rice in almost every relevant receiving statistic. My personal opinion is that Bruce should be included at the top of the SECOND-tier WR candidates - behind "legends" such as Rice, Moss, Carter, Owens and Harrison, but before "compilers" such as Art Monk, Tim Brown, Jimmy Smith, and Andre Reed. I have him on par with Michael Irvin - though if Bruce continues to pile on the statistics over the next few years, he will be an easy first ballot HOF.
Now that Ive offered the background, feel free to discuss.
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Jason Wood
Zoo York
Hey Jules,You'll get no argument from me on this one, Swann is (IMHO) CLEARLY the least deserving member of the PFHOF.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Looking at that page doesn't give me much of a sense of why Guy is considered to be so great. The one key stat listed in that history is Guy's 42.4 yard per punt average. That doesn't seem so impressive to me looking at the current NFL leaders. Plus Sammy Baugh's in the Hall of Fame. He averaged 45.1 yards per punt. And he was a pretty good QB too from what I understand. What was Guy's net average? What percentage of his kicks were downed inside the 20? How many went into the end zone? How did he perform in bad weather? I just don't see enough info on that site to support the claim he's the greatest of all time. Maybe he is but his supporters have to prove it.
MyHammyHurts
Footballguy
I have to throw in Jim Marshall's Name:At the time he retired Top 5 in Sacks, still in Top 15 all time.Member of out of the most dominate Defensive lines of all time.Holds NFL Record for Most Fumbles Recovered - Carear 29.Holds NFL record of Most consecutive games played 282.Played in 4 Superbowls, etc.
oso diablo
Footballguy
Really? You weren't impressed with this...
Or his 7 Pro Bowls. Or only one block ever. Or the many quotes such as these...
Yenrub
Footballguy
I’m sorry where did I write that Hayes shouldn’t be in the hall of fame?I was simply stating that Swann had earned his spot with his post-season play.Hey Jules,You'll get no argument from me on this one, Swann is (IMHO) CLEARLY the least deserving member of the PFHOF.
Even the page you sent me to wrote:
No one disputes Swann’s magnificent ability to crank his play up in big games (who amongst us haven’t seen the film of him abusing Dallas CB Mark Washington in Super Bowl 10?), which is the reason he finally achieved NFL immortality three years ago.(The Timmy Smith line was cute but Timmy only had one great game.)Is Hayes not being in the hall of fame a travesty? Yes
Is Swann being mentioned with the all time greats a travesty. No!
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
One play is all that most people with any football knowledge will remember Swann for.He is not in the top 50 in ANY major category. I will not now nor ever mention him with the all time greats. How can you?I’m sorry where did I write that Hayes shouldn’t be in the hall of fame?I was simply stating that Swann had earned his spot with his post-season play.Hey Jules,You'll get no argument from me on this one, Swann is (IMHO) CLEARLY the least deserving member of the PFHOF.
Even the page you sent me to wrote:
No one disputes Swann’s magnificent ability to crank his play up in big games (who amongst us haven’t seen the film of him abusing Dallas CB Mark Washington in Super Bowl 10?), which is the reason he finally achieved NFL immortality three years ago.(The Timmy Smith line was cute but Timmy only had one great game.)Is Hayes not being in the hall of fame a travesty? Yes
Is Swann being mentioned with the all time greats a travesty. No!
His season stats are nothing great.
That one catch is all everybody remembers him for.
He played with the Steelers which got him more publicity then he deserved.
Two years he scored 11 TDs (Out of the 51 in his career) so in the other 7 years he played he scored 29 TDs. A whopping 4.1 TDs per season! Whoop-Dee do!
He averaged all of 37 catches per season. Nothing great about that!
Can anyone please explain to me how this man was on the All 1970 decade team?
His 1970's stats (6 seasons):
240 catches = 40 catches a year
39 TDs = 6.5 TDs per year
The page I sent you did mention that Swann achieved immortality in the NFL for the one play in the Super Bowl. Does that make it right. Hell No! Swann shouldn't be in the Hall mentioned with the greats. You are either a Swann fan or a Steeler homer to think otherwise.
You say Timmy Smith had one great game but Swann had all of...two!
Super Bowl 1975: 4 catches for 161 yards
Super Bowl 1978: 7 catches for 124 yards
Let me say this again. Canton is for great careers, not two great post season games.
He is not in the top 50 at ANY major category. That has got to mean something. How can you write that Swann deserves to mentioned with the greats with that statement looming there? What did Swann do in his career that makes him so great to you?
RAIDERNATION.
Footballguy
"Other"... Kenny Stabler
Why? He was a badazzzzz. Homeboy could booze and womanize all night before a game, and go 21 for 26 on two hours sleep. If Swann and Stallworth can get in for being a big part of the great Steeler teams, then Stabler should be in also. He was the heart and soul of the Madden teams, including the World Champion 1976 squad. Also, when we played football in the backyard when I was a kid, I always shouted out "I'm the Snake!!!"
Why? He was a badazzzzz. Homeboy could booze and womanize all night before a game, and go 21 for 26 on two hours sleep. If Swann and Stallworth can get in for being a big part of the great Steeler teams, then Stabler should be in also. He was the heart and soul of the Madden teams, including the World Champion 1976 squad. Also, when we played football in the backyard when I was a kid, I always shouted out "I'm the Snake!!!"
Regarding Ray Guy:There are many factors going into evaluating a player. Stats are one of them, as is first-hand observation. There are lots of players who will have the merits debated. But the fact that one player is listed as the best punter ever or one of the top players ever by multiple entites INCLUDING the NFL and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, that should tell you he's pretty darn great. Here's that list again: - Member of NFL's 75th Anniversary All Time Team- NFL.com Super Bowl Dream Team member, voted by fans - NFL Insider All Time Super Bowl Team member - Sports Mirror Magazine All Time Dream Team member - Monday Night Football All - Time Team - Pro Football Hall of Fame All Time Team - Listed as one of 300 Greatest Players in NFL History by the Official Encyclopedia of the National Football League- Total Football II I doubt there is anyone else up for enshrinement this year on the all-time team, I couldn't find a link to it on the Hall's site.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
No, I wasn't impressed. All that page tells me is that a lot of people thought Ray Guy was a great punter, possibly the best ever. The page doesn't tell me why they were right to have thought that. And Guy didn't have only one punt blocked ever. He had 619 straight without a block which is nice but that's way behind Chris Gardocki's 978 (through 2003). I don't know how many punts Guy had blocked in his career, nor do I know what a good career number would be or if the credit should actually go to his offensive line. The record for most punts blocked in a career is only 14, shared by two punters who played 11 and 9 years respectively, so at worst it might happen once or twice a year to any punter and ought not to be much of a Hall of Fame credential.
A lot of people (including myself) think Lynn Swann was the best receiver of the 1970's. A number of posters on this thread have closely examined his numbers and come to the conclusion he does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Even if one disagrees the case against Swann can't simply be dismissed given his seemingly "weak" numbers. What is the statistical case for Guy? None of his advocates on this board have presented one. How does he compare to other punters? Why should a guy with a career 42.4 yard average be in and not some other punter like let's say Tommy Davis (career punting average: 44.7 yards per kick, 3d all-time behind Lechler's (!) 45.7 and Baugh's 45.1), or Jerrel Wilson (all-time AFL punter, 43.6 yard average and led league in punting a record 4 times, tied with Baugh; Guy did it 3 times). Heck, Darren Bennett from the Chargers had a much better average.
Guy isn't even close to the record for most punts downed inside the 20 for a career (Jeff Feagles 407 through 2003). Granted that stat's been kept only since 1976 but I doubt Guy would be close even if we knew his stats for his first 3 years. He doesn't own a single regular season punting record. Unlike an Art Monk, I don't believe Guy owned a major regular season record at his position at the time he retired. And since we're talking about a punter, he'd really have to stand head and shoulders above the rest to deserve enshrinement like Stenerud did when he retired.
Edited to fix some historical numbers.
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Yenrub
Footballguy
Actually I’m not a Steeler fan (my brother is) nor am I a big Swann fan per se.I just recognize that the guy always came up big in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl.One play is all that most people with any football knowledge will remember Swann for.He is not in the top 50 in ANY major category. I will not now nor ever mention him with the all time greats. How can you?I’m sorry where did I write that Hayes shouldn’t be in the hall of fame?I was simply stating that Swann had earned his spot with his post-season play.Hey Jules,You'll get no argument from me on this one, Swann is (IMHO) CLEARLY the least deserving member of the PFHOF.
Even the page you sent me to wrote:
No one disputes Swann’s magnificent ability to crank his play up in big games (who amongst us haven’t seen the film of him abusing Dallas CB Mark Washington in Super Bowl 10?), which is the reason he finally achieved NFL immortality three years ago.(The Timmy Smith line was cute but Timmy only had one great game.)Is Hayes not being in the hall of fame a travesty? Yes
Is Swann being mentioned with the all time greats a travesty. No!
His season stats are nothing great.
That one catch is all everybody remembers him for.
He played with the Steelers which got him more publicity then he deserved.
Two years he scored 11 TDs (Out of the 51 in his career) so in the other 7 years he played he scored 29 TDs. A whopping 4.1 TDs per season! Whoop-Dee do!
He averaged all of 37 catches per season. Nothing great about that!
Can anyone please explain to me how this man was on the All 1970 decade team?
His 1970's stats (6 seasons):
240 catches = 40 catches a year
39 TDs = 6.5 TDs per year
The page I sent you did mention that Swann achieved immortality in the NFL for the one play in the Super Bowl. Does that make it right. Hell No! Swann shouldn't be in the Hall mentioned with the greats. You are either a Swann fan or a Steeler homer to think otherwise.
You say Timmy Smith had one great game but Swann had all of...two!
Super Bowl 1975: 4 catches for 161 yards
Super Bowl 1978: 7 catches for 124 yards
Let me say this again. Canton is for great careers, not two great post season games.
He is not in the top 50 at ANY major category. That has got to mean something. How can you write that Swann deserves to mentioned with the greats with that statement looming there? What did Swann do in his career that makes him so great to you?
Super Bowls – 4 games 16-364-3 –22.3 yards per catch
Playoffs – 12 games 31-543-6-17.5 yards per catch
You keep mentioning that Swann isn’t in the top 50 in any categories and you are right.
When he retired was he in the top 50 in any major categories? I don’t know.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Now that I've done some research into this Guy thing, I've discovered a more qualified punter: Tommy Davis. As mentioned, his career average is significantly higher than Guy's. Plus, the guy was also a kicker. He's still third on the Niners all-time scoring list behind Rice and Ray Wersching. He made 234 straight extra points which was a record for about 25 years. And his overall PAT percentage is still 3d all-time behind Vanderjagt and Elam. And for what it's worth Guy's longest punt ever was 74 yards. Davis had an 82-yarder and an 80-yarder. Davis appears to have been a much more valuable player than Guy!
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Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
Sorry but I still say this: Canton is for careers, not a few good playoff games.Swann was never a great wide reciever. Was he good? Maybe.Actually I’m not a Steeler fan (my brother is) nor am I a big Swann fan per se.I just recognize that the guy always came up big in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl.One play is all that most people with any football knowledge will remember Swann for.He is not in the top 50 in ANY major category. I will not now nor ever mention him with the all time greats. How can you?I’m sorry where did I write that Hayes shouldn’t be in the hall of fame?I was simply stating that Swann had earned his spot with his post-season play.Hey Jules,You'll get no argument from me on this one, Swann is (IMHO) CLEARLY the least deserving member of the PFHOF.
Even the page you sent me to wrote:
No one disputes Swann’s magnificent ability to crank his play up in big games (who amongst us haven’t seen the film of him abusing Dallas CB Mark Washington in Super Bowl 10?), which is the reason he finally achieved NFL immortality three years ago.(The Timmy Smith line was cute but Timmy only had one great game.)Is Hayes not being in the hall of fame a travesty? Yes
Is Swann being mentioned with the all time greats a travesty. No!
His season stats are nothing great.
That one catch is all everybody remembers him for.
He played with the Steelers which got him more publicity then he deserved.
Two years he scored 11 TDs (Out of the 51 in his career) so in the other 7 years he played he scored 29 TDs. A whopping 4.1 TDs per season! Whoop-Dee do!
He averaged all of 37 catches per season. Nothing great about that!
Can anyone please explain to me how this man was on the All 1970 decade team?
His 1970's stats (6 seasons):
240 catches = 40 catches a year
39 TDs = 6.5 TDs per year
The page I sent you did mention that Swann achieved immortality in the NFL for the one play in the Super Bowl. Does that make it right. Hell No! Swann shouldn't be in the Hall mentioned with the greats. You are either a Swann fan or a Steeler homer to think otherwise.
You say Timmy Smith had one great game but Swann had all of...two!
Super Bowl 1975: 4 catches for 161 yards
Super Bowl 1978: 7 catches for 124 yards
Let me say this again. Canton is for great careers, not two great post season games.
He is not in the top 50 at ANY major category. That has got to mean something. How can you write that Swann deserves to mentioned with the greats with that statement looming there? What did Swann do in his career that makes him so great to you?
Super Bowls – 4 games 16-364-3 –22.3 yards per catch
Playoffs – 12 games 31-543-6-17.5 yards per catch
You keep mentioning that Swann isn’t in the top 50 in any categories and you are right.
When he retired was he in the top 50 in any major categories? I don’t know.
A couple good games shouldn't overshadow a mediocre career.
All we talk about is a few good PLAYOFF games, not even a few good seasons. How bad is that?
Face it, Swann was a pathetic joke to be in the HOF. He made it because of a few good post-season games OR maybe he was a good guy OR maybe he was a decent announcer.
Fact is: He was a mediocre WR. Stats are there to prove it.
Bigdee
Footballguy
Randy Gradishar, MLB Denver Broncos Seven Pro Bowl appearances.* First-team all-pro five times.* Named one of the 300 greatest players of all time by Total Football: The Official Encyclopedia of the National Football League.* Named one of the top 10 NFL linebackers of all time by Pro Football Weekly.* Broncos' all-time leader in tackles with 2,049. Led the team in tackles 9 straight years, every year after his rookie season. Career high for season in 1978 with 286. * Never missed a game; played in 145 consecutive games.* Accounted for 33 career turnovers (20 interceptions and 13 fumble recoveries).* Ohio State Sports Hall of Fame inductee, 1983.* Inducted into the Colorado Sports Hall of Fame, 1987.* Inducted into the Denver Broncos' Ring of Fame, 1989.* National Football Foundation Hall of Fame inductee, 1999.* Named to the College Football All Century Team, 2000.If this guy doesn't deserve it, I don't know who does. Only thing keeping RG out is the fact that he played for Denver at a time they were usually a very poor team. Got no pub.
Native
Footballguy
You are right.Hey Native,While I think you make a compelling case for Bruce, it's actually not germane to this thread. We're talking about Most Deserving Player Not Yet in the Hall of Fame...BUT ALREADY ELIGIBLE.Thought I would give this a mid-week bump. Heres is the candidate of the day regarding this subject - which I find to be fascinating and a lightning-rod for compelling, stimulating football discussion.
Todays HOF Candidate: Isaac Bruce
A. Statistical Background
*At only 31, Bruce has already moved into 14th place all time in receptions with 755, (recently passing both Charlie Joiner and Michael Irvin). He will pass James Lofton with 9 more catches.
*He is 13th all time in receiving yards with 11487. If he plays only one more year, he should pass Art Monk and approach Steve Largent territory. If he plays only two more years, he will approach the Top 3 (Rice Brown and Lofton). And then he would only be 33.
* He has averaged over 1000 yards per season over his 11 year career - the ultimate sign of consistent production over an extended period. That includes injury prone seasons in 1997 and 1998 when he only played 17 games total, and his rookie season when he only caught 21 passes in 12 games. Of players with 10 or more seasons, only Jerry Rice can boast such an amazing feat.
*Hes already passed Monk in TD's with 72 (25th all time). Among active players, only Owens, Harrison and Moss are in the top 50 (Unless you consider Rice and Brown "active").
*He has seven 1000 yard seasons and counting
* He already has 7 top "5 finishes" in major statistical categories and is scheduled to finish top 5 in both yards and receptions this year - putting him ahead of such HOF nominees as Brown, Monk, and Irvin
* His gargantuan 1995 season - 119 receptions, 1781 yards and 13 TD's remains one of the greatest seasons of all time for a WR
*He has been a clutch playoff performer, with 4 100-yard days in 8 games. He also had a monster Super Bowl vs the Titans, with 162 yards and the game winning TD
B. Player Performance/Personal Thoughts:
Bruce has been a great player to WATCH over the years - runs great routes, has excellent hands (aside from last nights two fumbles :rotflmao
C. Recommendation
With regards to statistics, Bruce's resume already meets HOF requirements. If he plays until hes 38 like so many other WR's, he will surpass every WR not named Jerry Rice in almost every relevant receiving statistic. My personal opinion is that Bruce should be included at the top of the SECOND-tier WR candidates - behind "legends" such as Rice, Moss, Carter, Owens and Harrison, but before "compilers" such as Art Monk, Tim Brown, Jimmy Smith, and Andre Reed. I have him on par with Michael Irvin - though if Bruce continues to pile on the statistics over the next few years, he will be an easy first ballot HOF.
Now that Ive offered the background, feel free to discuss.
I think Bruce will get in when the time comes, but he has to stop playing for a few years before we can talk about him in this context.
Woodrow
I moved the Bruce post to a seperate thread.,FYI. Id like to discuss his worthiness of being inducted.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Lynn Swann sucks and it's a joke he is in the HOF.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Well that's swell. But why are you quoting my Ray Guy comment in a post about Lynn Swann?Lynn Swann sucks and it's a joke he is in the HOF.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Just wanted to point out to everyone clearly that your lack of support for Ray Guy is tied directly to your overwhelming support of Lynn Swann. It is my opinion that someone who thinks that Lynn Swann was clearly the best WR in the 70s should not be allowed to vote on HOF candidates.Well that's swell. But why are you quoting my Ray Guy comment in a post about Lynn Swann?Lynn Swann sucks and it's a joke he is in the HOF.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
I don't "overwhelmingly" support Swann. I did watch him play and for a few years there I thought he was the best, but if somebody doesn't think he deserves the honor they are not crazy. His resume is admittedly thin for a Hall of Famer. My lack of support for Ray Guy has nothing to with my feelings about Swann or any other players. I don't want any pure punters in the Hall. My only question here is if there must be one, why should it be Guy? I haven't seen an answer yet other than "Guy was the best and everybody knows it". Those who are too young to have watched the NFL in the 1970's need to understand that the game was very different then and it's unfair to compare the raw numbers of receivers from that era to those of the 80's, 90's and today. Before the rules changes in 1978, and before there was such a thing as a West Coast Offense, a receiver who caught 50 balls or who had a 1000 yards was considered to have had an awesome season. It's hard to believe now, but a great Hall of Fame receiver like Paul Warfield might catch 30 passes a year and nobody was criticizing his team for not throwing to him more often. Warfield was the best WR in football in 1971. He caught 43 passes. Marvin Harrison caught exactly 100 more than that in 2002 and he's a great, great player but not any greater than Warfield (IMO). Warfield averaged 23.2 yards per catch in 1971 and 20.1 for his career. Harrison averaged 14.5 a catch in 2002 and is at 13.2 for his career. If not Swann, who was the best receiver of the 1970's?Just wanted to point out to everyone clearly that your lack of support for Ray Guy is tied directly to your overwhelming support of Lynn Swann. It is my opinion that someone who thinks that Lynn Swann was clearly the best WR in the 70s should not be allowed to vote on HOF candidates.Well that's swell. But why are you quoting my Ray Guy comment in a post about Lynn Swann?Lynn Swann sucks and it's a joke he is in the HOF.
On The Rocks
Footballguy
I voted....then read the first couple of posts.I could't bear to read anymore.If you posted anyone other than Art Monk, you can't possibly be serious.Art Monk.There is no debate.
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On The Rocks
Footballguy
regarding Lynn Swann...i was at the HOF induction of Jim Kelly a couple years back.i bumped into Lynn Swann, and he had the yellow HOF Jacket.I asked him who he stole that from. He wasn't amused.
Workhorse
Footballguy
Anyone else find it a bit odd that Art Monk only made 3 Pro Bowls?I mean, typically, the NFC took anywhere between 4 and 7 WRs to the Pro Bowl in Monk's time. So let's say that for only 3 of his 16 seasons, Monk was one of the 5 best at his position.Does that cause anyone to re-evaluate Monk's HOF status?Just curious.
oso diablo
Footballguy
Guy was the best and everybody knows it (except Marshall Rob).Seriously, it's hard to find old stats on punters, at least in the terms that you prefer. I did find one anecdote about Guy's penultimate season (85, i think), compared to the 2003 Pro Bowl punters. It looked at the % of punts that were not returned. Guy logged something north of 70% unreturned (did not count touchbacks) punts (remember the hang time), compared to something like 30% unreturned for the recent Pro Bowlers.I'll look into it more, if you can find someone who will second your motion that Tommy Davis is more HOF-worthy than Ray Guy.
dgreen
Footballguy
It depends on what it means to say he made 3 Pro Bowls. Does that mean he played in three or does it mean he was selected to three? There are plenty of players that are selected and don't play. There are plenty that play in a Pro Bowl that weren't originaly selected (Gus Freakin' Frerotte was a Pro Bowler once because of injured players dropping out). I would not be surprised at all to find out he only played in three. I would be somewhat, but not overly, surprised to learn he was only selected to three.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I submit that both Steve Largent and John Stallworth were better WRs in the 70s than Lynn Swann. I understand that Largent only had 4 seasons in the 70s and most people think of him as an early 80s guy, but let's compare the 3:Seasons among the league's Top 10:
Swann - Receptions - 1977 and 1978 - tied for 7th
Stallworth - Receptions - 1979 (6th)
Largent - Receptions - 1976 (tied for 6th), 1978 (3rd), 1979 (7th)
Swann - Rec yards - 1975 (8th), 1977(4th), 1978 (7th)
Stallworth - Rec yards - 1977 (5th), 1979 (2nd)
Largent - Rec yards - 1978 (2nd), 1979 (1st)
Swann - Rec TDs - 1975 (tied for 1st), 1977 (tied for 6th), 1978 (2nd)
Stallworth - Rec TDs - 1977 (tied for 6th), 1978 (tied for 4th), 1979 (tied for 8th)
Largent - Rec TDs - 1977 (2nd), 1978 (tied for 8th), 1979 (tied for 5th)
Among the league's All Time Top 50:
Swann - None
Stallworth - Rec Yards - 41st
Stallworth - Rec TDs tied for 41st
Largent - Receptions 9th
Largent - Rec yards - 7th
Largent - Rec TDs - tied for 3rd
I think you can make a case that due to the SB heroics, Swann was better than Stallworth. It seems like the HOF votes did just that. But there is no way he was better than Largent.
sdyarbrough
Footballguy
Jim Marshall-the Iron Man
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Largent had the clearly superior career to Swann but, as you say, most people consider Largent an 80's guy probably because: (1) the Seahawks were an expansion team while Swann was winning Super Bowls; and (2) Largent had only had a couple of years near the top before the 70's were over. Your numbers show their top 3 seasons of the 70's were very comparable and Largent could get the nod as the best. They have pretty similar yards per catch and TD's per catch numbers so Swann can't really be said to be the superior big play guy. Of course Swann played extremely well in 12 postseason games in the decade while Largent played in none. Unscientifically, when I was a kid the guys I remember being talked about as "the best" back in the mid and late 70's were Swann and Stallworth, Drew Pearson, Harold Carmichael, Cliff Branch, Mel Gray, and Issac Curtis.
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I have been swamped at work, and haven't time to deal with trackign down Ray Guy info. I will say that Davis is also a good candidate.Regarding Swann, and all the all-decade lists:We really shouldn't care who was the best receiver of the '70's when arguing HOF worthiness. Whether or not the guy was the best player in a ten year period which happens to have all years match a pattern of 197X is no more meaningful than the best WR from 1973-1982, or 1967-1976, it's just more convenient.Regarding candidates for WR of the '70's:BiletnikoffCarmichaelJacksonGilliamBurroughI think are better choices than either Swann or Stallworth, but the 4 Super Bowls are the big item for the Steeler guys in the '70's. There may be others, and I will edit this with stats later, once I get a complete list.The main difference between Swann & Stallworth is Swann's big plays in Super Bowls versus Stallworth's 84-87:
I feel Largent didn't play enough time in the 1970's, but he's better than all of the guys above, in my opinion.
Code:
| Year TM | G | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+| 1984 pit | 16 | 80 1395 17.4 11 || 1985 pit | 16 | 75 937 12.5 5 || 1986 pit | 11 | 34 466 13.7 1 || 1987 pit | 12 | 41 521 12.7 2 |MarshallRob
Footballguy
Good post. I can't believe I forgot about Harold Jackson. When you look at his numbers it's hard to understand why there's so much talk about Art Monk for the Hall and so little about Jackson. Jackson was a much better receiver.
Bigdee
Footballguy
Good post. I can't believe I forgot about Harold Jackson. When you look at his numbers it's hard to understand why there's so much talk about Art Monk for the Hall and so little about Jackson. Jackson was a much better receiver.
If these numbers get Stallworth consideration, then Rod Smith should be a shoo in first ballot when he becomes eligible. Not only has this guy put up the numbers, he has been a stand up guy in the community once he got his head out of *** early in his career. Practice squad to this. Prime time rags to riches story.
Year Receiving Rushing
Year Team G GS Recpt Yd Avg Lg TD Att Yd Avg Lg TD
2004 DEN 11 11 49 762 15.6 85 5 4 25 6.2 14 0
(After 11 games)
2003 DEN 15 15 74 845 11.4 38 3 10 98 9.8 26 0
2002 DEN 16 16 89 1027 11.5 46 5 6 9 1.5 9 0
2001 DEN 15 14 113 1343 11.9 65 11 3 27 9.0 17 0
2000 DEN 16 16 100 1602 16.0 49 8 6 99 16.5 50 1
1998 DEN 16 16 86 1222 14.2 58 6 6 63 10.5 37 0
1997 DEN 16 16 70 1180 16.9 78 12 5 16 3.2 21 0
1996 DEN 10 1 16 237 14.8 49 2 1 1 1.0 1 0
1995 DEN 16 1 6 152 25.3 43 1 0 0 0.0 0 0
His stretch from 97 to 02 blow the doors of anything Stallworth had going for him. These numbers stack up against, and beat out, the numbers put up by several guys already in the HOF. Took him a couple of years to get going, but when he did..
Rod's main downfall when the time comes, will be the fact that he isn't the type that draws a lot of face time or pub like TO or Moss. That means getting the votes from the east coast scumbags will be difficult at best. That has a lot to do with many players that don't happen to play in NY, Miami or Dallas.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
It's not really fair to Stallworth or Rod Smith to compare their numbers. As I posted previously, guys who played much of their career in the 1970's (or before) just didn't put up the same kinds of numbers that today's receivers do. The game was different. The players back then caught many fewer balls (Stallworth 537, Smith 682 and counting), but had a much higher per catch average (Stallworth 16.2, Smith 13.8) and scored TD's more frequently (Stallworth 63, Smith 57). Plus Stallworth's postseason numbers really are impressive. Rod Smith's real problem is Harrison, TO, Bruce and maybe some others. All his exact contemporarires, and all with better numbers.
Chitown Mole
Footballguy
He was never the best WR in the game in a given year. He took tons of short safe passes in the Redskins possession attack. I don't perceive him as a HOF'er myself. I just perceive him as a productive player over a long period of time. I like my HOF'ers to be dominant at thier position. Every year there were always better WR's then Monk.
After reviewing Ray Lewis career, I just had to post this comparison between Lewis (whom most people seem to rank among the top LBs ever to play the game) & Gradishar:
Randy Gradishar
10 seasons
145 games (all consecutive - never missed a game)
2049 tackles
20 INTs
13 fumble recoveries
3 TDs
Ray Lewis
9 seasons
125 games
1210 tackles
20 INTs
9 fumble recoveries
1 TD
Gradishar played above Lewis' level - how did he not get elected the first year he was eligible?
Randy Gradishar
10 seasons
145 games (all consecutive - never missed a game)
2049 tackles
20 INTs
13 fumble recoveries
3 TDs
Ray Lewis
9 seasons
125 games
1210 tackles
20 INTs
9 fumble recoveries
1 TD
Gradishar played above Lewis' level - how did he not get elected the first year he was eligible?
C
CrossEyed
Guest
L.C. Greenwood. Clearly one of the best DEs to ever play the game. Joe Greene was the player he was because L.C. played next to him.
Canuckleheads
Footballguy
Voted Richard Dent. The guy had moves at the DE spot that I have yet to see anyone pull off. Dent was unstoppable at times. There would have been no '85 Bears D without him.That said, I'm am most disturbed that Art Monk isn't in the HOF. What more do they want?
