bigbottom
Footballguy
To be fair, freedom of speech and freedom of protest are also bedrock principles of our republic.
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Muslims in NYC Planning to Build Second Mosque Near Ground Zero (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chadstroma
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
No. Let me repeat what I mean by misinformed:1. A majority of Americans believe that the building is a mosque. This is false; it is a community center which includes a mosque inside it.2. A majority of Americans believe that the building is located either at or next to Ground Zero. This is false; the building is two blocks away.3. A majority of Americans believe that this Imam is a radical, and a supporter of terrorists. This is false; the Imam is a moderate Muslim.4. A majority of Americans believe that 9/11 was an act of war against the United States by the Islamic religion, and that America is at war with the religion of Islam. This is false. I strongly believe that if the American people were better informed on these four issues, the opposition to this building would significantly decrease. I blame conservatives in general and Fox News in particular for spreading the first three misconceptions that I have listed. As for #4, it is probably an inevitable result of 9/11, but for the past 10 years conservatives have been building it up and making it worse, especially during the buildup to the Iraq War, and also ever since Obama was elected. I need to point out that I don't believe that most of the people spreading these falsehoods are doing so disingenously; they are well meaning. Guys like John 555 and Jon-mx here are well meaning and they believe this stuff themselves. But that doesn't change the fact that we're talking about falsehoods.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Absolutely. And the checks and balances of freedom of speech are there to show those who are speaking out against something where their outrage is stemming from, or simply pointing out their egregious flaws.
Gigantomachia
Footballguy
fully agree, but there is fine line between protesting and oppression, i will leave it to u to determine where it is drawn exactly.
timschochet
Footballguy
The two issues are completely unrelated in content, but this whole controversy strongly reminds me of Teri Schaivo. The built up conservative outrage, the political use of what should not really be a public concern, the false information being spread through the internet and other sources. Does anyone else see this comparison?
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Statorama
Footballguy
Their entire cult is built on the teachings of a viscious rapist and murderer. Lets face facts Tim, the entire concept of a "moderate muslim" is a fallacy.
timschochet
Footballguy
1. Actually, I was incorrect. It is not to be an actual mosque, but a prayer center. 2. It is not hair splitting at all. The distance is extremely relevant. The building will not even be visible from Ground Zero. Yet the reporting on thius story has been consistently "The Mosque at Ground Zero". This is highly deceptive and misleading.
3. So now it's irrelevant whether or not the Imam is moderate? How then should we regard all the lies being spread on this subject? I say it's highly relevant.
4. So the question of whether or not we're at war with Islam is a "judgment call?" That's pretty scary.
timschochet
Footballguy
What cult? What the heck are you talking about?
Jewell
Footballguy
A majority, a majority, a majority, a majority.Tim, why have you spent much of this thread arguing that those opposed to the community center are inflecting the actions of a minority of Muslims on the majority, and now you're inflecting the majority opinion on the above statistics on the minority here. We've already said that we oppose the community center on other grounds, and we're not misinformed, we just choose to put more weight on certain information much like you're doing with the opinions above.
timschochet
Footballguy
Is anyone paying attention to what's happening in Pakistan? 20 million people are going to be homeless due to the recent floods, without food, a place to live. There's going to be hunger riots. The government we are supporting is completely corrupt and ineffective, and the fundamentalist extreme Islamics are gaining support among the public, exactly the way they did in Iran in 1977. And we choose now to paint ourselves as anti-Muslim to the world, to reject moderate Islam? Incredibly stupid.
drummer
Footballguy
I see churches being built everywhere. I have volunteered services to friends of a lot of different denominations when it comes to A-V install.
A church is a church is a church in a building. It's the people who attend it what really makes it one.
So really, people who have a problem with this has a problem with the people who would attend this church.
A church is a church is a church in a building. It's the people who attend it what really makes it one.
So really, people who have a problem with this has a problem with the people who would attend this church.
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That wasn't what I said, i was not agreeing with how you characterized it and recharacterized it as the support the attacks had by Muslims. What percentage of Muslims globally do you think supported the 9-11 attacks?.....it is probably around 30-40%. Even in the US, it is probably greater than 5%. That is what is scary.
Got a link
fish much? find some better bait, that bait stinks.
drummer
Footballguy
If it was bait, it would be fresher than "Why do you hate America?".
Here are some. These suggest alarmingly high levels of support of suicide bombings to killin innocent civilians.Got a link
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Guess you must've missed all the posts that had links to mostly conservative groups opposing mosques being built in TN, FL and CA among others.
Depends on the context...
drummer
Footballguy
Maybe a sticky of MongoL\Peens of what not to say on the FFA?
I dont have a problem not saying certain words in here, Im well aware of whats acceptable or not....
drummer
Footballguy
Well, of course.
Gaaary
drummer
Footballguy
Aiiir Force.
:fail:
drummer
Footballguy
:sticky:
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Yeah, that was pretty pathetic even by Peens low standards.
Wife and Kids are gone to a kiddy bday party, im gonna sneak in a nap, blouses...
I have never ever seen any building that wasn't opposed on some grounds.
Of course you forgot to mention that one of the board members of the proposed Tennessee mosque supports expanding Islam through a holy war.There are radicals on both sides, although I see the opposition as mostly fringe.
cr8f
Footballguy
So then when will this Mosque have to move?
Immigrant Rights:Immigrant Rights HomepageView PetitionsStart a Petition
The "Ground Zero Mosque" That's Already There
With all the outrage surrounding Cordoba House, a planned Islamic community center that will be built a couple blocks from the site of the Twin Towers, you might think that the nearby area is completely lacking in any Muslim structures. After all, why would people make such a hubbub about a building that will provide a swimming pool, restaurant, bookstores, and meeting spaces in addition to a mosque — with right-wingers dubbing the structure the "Ground Zero Mosque" to fan the flames — if there's already a mosque in the area?
Well, four blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks, there's already a mosque. And the Masjid Manhattan has existed there for decades without being the subject of this level of media frenzy.
As the New York Times points out, the planned site of the Cordoba House, a former Burlington Coat Factory, is already serving as a spillover space for Muslim practitioners from this mosque and another 12 blocks from the World Trade Center, small locations that "routinely turn people away for lack of space."
Now, people might try to argue this fine point, but I don't think two blocks away and around the corner versus four blocks away makes a significant difference when you're talking geography. In Manhattan, two blocks can lead to a complete neighborhood change — we pack a lot of diversity close together here in the Big Apple. Cordoba House is no more on the site of the 9/11 attacks than the Masjid Manhattan is. But if anything should be called a "Ground Zero Mosque," then we already have one or two. Is the problem, then, not with the mosque in Cordoba House, but the bookstores? Auditorium? Community swimming pool?
The extreme attacks on Cordoba House have been traced back to misused blogger power, when Pat Geller and the New York Post launched a "crusade" against what they deemed a "terrorist trophy." (I like this visual representation of reality versus what right-wing attacks dogs are making this out to be.) Before that, Talking Points Memo reports, even conservative like Laura Ingraham said of it, "I like what you're trying to do," and admitted that she couldn't find many people who opposed the project. The sudden concerted attacks on religious freedom smack more of conservative Christian nationalism and an attempt to win midterm votes through Islamphobia, a campaign that has caused dangerous hatred and division, while causing unnecessary pain to 9/11 victims families.
President Barack Obama ended up weighing in on this issue last Friday, reminding everybody that religious freedom is a fundamental building block of our nation, enshrined in the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. As a political calculation, he shied away from talking about whether he supported Cordoba House itself, sticking firmly to a declaration of the "right" of all people to practice their religion in America.
Immigrant Rights:Immigrant Rights HomepageView PetitionsStart a Petition
The "Ground Zero Mosque" That's Already There
With all the outrage surrounding Cordoba House, a planned Islamic community center that will be built a couple blocks from the site of the Twin Towers, you might think that the nearby area is completely lacking in any Muslim structures. After all, why would people make such a hubbub about a building that will provide a swimming pool, restaurant, bookstores, and meeting spaces in addition to a mosque — with right-wingers dubbing the structure the "Ground Zero Mosque" to fan the flames — if there's already a mosque in the area?
Well, four blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks, there's already a mosque. And the Masjid Manhattan has existed there for decades without being the subject of this level of media frenzy.
As the New York Times points out, the planned site of the Cordoba House, a former Burlington Coat Factory, is already serving as a spillover space for Muslim practitioners from this mosque and another 12 blocks from the World Trade Center, small locations that "routinely turn people away for lack of space."
Now, people might try to argue this fine point, but I don't think two blocks away and around the corner versus four blocks away makes a significant difference when you're talking geography. In Manhattan, two blocks can lead to a complete neighborhood change — we pack a lot of diversity close together here in the Big Apple. Cordoba House is no more on the site of the 9/11 attacks than the Masjid Manhattan is. But if anything should be called a "Ground Zero Mosque," then we already have one or two. Is the problem, then, not with the mosque in Cordoba House, but the bookstores? Auditorium? Community swimming pool?
The extreme attacks on Cordoba House have been traced back to misused blogger power, when Pat Geller and the New York Post launched a "crusade" against what they deemed a "terrorist trophy." (I like this visual representation of reality versus what right-wing attacks dogs are making this out to be.) Before that, Talking Points Memo reports, even conservative like Laura Ingraham said of it, "I like what you're trying to do," and admitted that she couldn't find many people who opposed the project. The sudden concerted attacks on religious freedom smack more of conservative Christian nationalism and an attempt to win midterm votes through Islamphobia, a campaign that has caused dangerous hatred and division, while causing unnecessary pain to 9/11 victims families.
President Barack Obama ended up weighing in on this issue last Friday, reminding everybody that religious freedom is a fundamental building block of our nation, enshrined in the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. As a political calculation, he shied away from talking about whether he supported Cordoba House itself, sticking firmly to a declaration of the "right" of all people to practice their religion in America.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I didn't forget to mention anything. Mongol made an untrue statement, I told him it was untrue. Simple.I have never ever seen any building that wasn't opposed on some grounds.
There are radicals on both sides, although I see the opposition as mostly fringe.
Johnny Detroit
Footballguy
Yes they have the right to build.
Yes people have the right to NOT want them to build it.
Seems that simple?
The whole "Cordoba House" thing is laughable to me. It goes right to the whole fact that Islam does not consider everyone else an equal. While at UofM I interviewed the Imam of the oldest mosque in Detroit (do not remember 100% if it was the 1st in MI or just Detroit). The one quote that I will never forget is his arrogance when talking about other religions. Jews were elementary, Christians were high school and Islam was college (his exact words on how he looked at religion). Just the same as how they claim Cordoba was a time the three religions lived together in peace. Sure, but they tend to leave out Jews and Christians lived under restrictions and everything was "peaceful" as long as they followed the rules of their Muslim masters. The tidbits of what happened when the non-Muslims stepped out of line are left out when they preach about how "Cordoba House" is about all of us getting along and singing songs. Go ask the fun loving Scandinavians if they wish they could go back in time and change their mind about opening the flood gates and letting Islam infect their society. I mean we can all be honest. A guy wanders into a cave, claims an angel talked to him and now we have people blowing themselves up during rush hour.
*disclaimer: I think all organized religion is a sham, but Islam goes behind just being a sham to outright dangerous.
Despite this, YES, they do have the right to build it. But because of my opinion on Islam and examples of what is happening all over Europe, I am 100% against this nonsense getting any worse in the U.S.
Yes people have the right to NOT want them to build it.
Seems that simple?
The whole "Cordoba House" thing is laughable to me. It goes right to the whole fact that Islam does not consider everyone else an equal. While at UofM I interviewed the Imam of the oldest mosque in Detroit (do not remember 100% if it was the 1st in MI or just Detroit). The one quote that I will never forget is his arrogance when talking about other religions. Jews were elementary, Christians were high school and Islam was college (his exact words on how he looked at religion). Just the same as how they claim Cordoba was a time the three religions lived together in peace. Sure, but they tend to leave out Jews and Christians lived under restrictions and everything was "peaceful" as long as they followed the rules of their Muslim masters. The tidbits of what happened when the non-Muslims stepped out of line are left out when they preach about how "Cordoba House" is about all of us getting along and singing songs. Go ask the fun loving Scandinavians if they wish they could go back in time and change their mind about opening the flood gates and letting Islam infect their society. I mean we can all be honest. A guy wanders into a cave, claims an angel talked to him and now we have people blowing themselves up during rush hour.
*disclaimer: I think all organized religion is a sham, but Islam goes behind just being a sham to outright dangerous.
Despite this, YES, they do have the right to build it. But because of my opinion on Islam and examples of what is happening all over Europe, I am 100% against this nonsense getting any worse in the U.S.
What this points out is people are not against Muslims have a place to pray. I support local Muslim's right to have a place of prayer. It is this $100 million monument-like building that is the problem. Without invading and taking over New York, two blocks is as close as radical Muslims could have hoped to have gotten to build their building to commemorate the attacks to 9-11.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
So the mosque that already exists that is 2 blocks further away is cool.
drummer
Footballguy
THE CABDRIVERS. LET'S NOT FORGET THE CABDRIVERS.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
lol at "commemorate the attacks to 9-11"
Welcome to the Mohammed Atta Memorial Complex
Welcome to the Mohammed Atta Memorial Complex
Well, unless they relocate to a more sensible location, that might as well be what it is named.
drummer
Footballguy
With the three point line smaller than regulation.
drummer
Footballguy
Wasn't 911 an attack on America? Or was is just against NY?
America.....What do I win?
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
So are the building of mosques nationwide not testament to American values of equality and goodness, which flies in the face of what the terrorists were trying to accomplish?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
And the CANARDS!!!! Why are people forgetting about the CANARDS??!?!?!?!?!
No. Is that a trick question?
drummer
Footballguy
What did you lose?
So you still hate America?
drummer
Footballguy
Of course I do. I'm Religious.
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