Mario Kart
Footballguy
3-steps at :30. Pathetic.
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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
- Start date
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
So, wait: Does Rashard Lewis get a ring?
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Was it just LeBron that choked? Did Wade choke? Bosh? Bibby? Chalmers? Spoelstra?Was it maybe that the Mavs are a better team and were also coached better?
General Malaise
Footballguy
I guess Carlisle was just way over his head when New Jersey swept Detroit in 2003.
General Malaise
Footballguy
C-Ring.
B-Deep
Footballguy
maybe he choked because of the mavs defensein the end, he needed to perform and did not, the mavs star did. Even on a night when Dirk was AWFUL from the field, he found a way to outdo lebron in the 4th quarter.
again, if lebron wants to be judged on eastern conference championships, have him let us know. I thought he was talking about 6,7,8 rings. I listened to him on the expectations he set on himself. If he wants us to lower those, i am happy to.
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Magic averaged 17.6 - 13.1apg - 7.3rpg in the regular season, and 18.1 - 13.6 - 7.6 in the championship series.LeBron averaged 26.7 - 7.0apg - 7.5rpg in the regular season and 17.8 - 6.8 - 7.2 in the championship series.Magic got better in all three categories, LeBron got worse.I like LeBron alot, and was rooting for Miami to win, but there is no question that his legacy took a big hit in this one series. If he does not want to be Scotty Pippen, he will have to win multiple rings as the main guy on the floor.Scotty Pippen was a great player, but he is not in the discussion of GOAT. Right now, Lebron has taken himself out of that conversation as well. It remains to be seen whether he can get back into the conversation, or whether he belongs in a lower tier of all-time players.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/731982-nba-finals-lebron-james-isnt-the-first-to-shrink-in-the-finalsHow soon we forget "tragic" johnson.he wants to be MJhe wants to be magiche wants to be birdhe is made out to be an all time greatdid any of them ever fade in a finals like this?if he wants to be dominque wilkins, that's finea lot of people would love to be himthere's no shame in thatnot everyone can shine under finals pressure, and thus far he cannothe could turn that around, though he can never erase the choke he did this time aroundI agree that lebron disappeared, played horribly, deferred, played like a #####, and wasn't clutch. He's still the best player in the league though. He just is.and wade is right behind himAlso, based on this definition that you cannot be the best player in the league if you perform this way in the finals, then players who have not even been to the finals cannot be considered for best player.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Ok, gotcha.It wasn't "clutch." It was very disappointing if you're a Heat fan or affiliated with the team. I don't know that he "choked," but that's just because I very rarely think these guys choked as I define. To me choking is Nick Anderson in the 1995 Finals, when it's clear his nerves affected him. Or Jean Van de Velde. Anything short of that is just normal ups and downs, of which there are tons, all the time, and they just get magnified when more people are watching and the stakes are higher. But that's just me.
ODoyleRules
Footballguy
I think if Derrick Rose had left the Bulls and went to OKC, LA or Orlando before the season and predicted his team would win the title you would see the same criticism against Rose that LeBron is now getting. LeBron's the most talented guy in the league, but he put a target on his back by going to Miami and there should be no surprise that he's getting torched today when he didn't deliver in the Finals.
got_nugs
Footballguy
Oh no he didn't go Jean Van de Velde.
B-Deep
Footballguy
fair enoughi think 3 points per 4th quarter is a chokeeither way my only point is, he brought the hype, so i won't shed any tears over his getting ripped for failure to live up to it
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
So every player who has ever lost choked then, correct? In the end, the Heat needed to perform and did not, the Mavs did.
Todem
Footballguy
All I know is 85% of the sports media and so-called NBA experts did not pick the Miami Heat to be in the NBA Finals.
Meantime they won the Eastern Conference and were 2 games away from taking the prize. All while many were still picking Boston and Chicago to take them out in the post season.
Sheesh.
A great season with a bitter end. In fact for every team in the league other than Dallas it was a failure. Because every team in the league has one goal.....to win a title. Plain and simple.
Meantime they won the Eastern Conference and were 2 games away from taking the prize. All while many were still picking Boston and Chicago to take them out in the post season.
Sheesh.
A great season with a bitter end. In fact for every team in the league other than Dallas it was a failure. Because every team in the league has one goal.....to win a title. Plain and simple.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Sure. That's basically what I'm saying- that the criticism so overwhelming because people hate him.Question- did he predict they would win the title this year? I know he predicted a dynasty, but I thought even at his dumbest and most toolish he had his wits about him enough to know not to predict a year one title. Other good teams would consider that to be bulletin board material far more than just saying "we're eventually gonna win a bunch of titles." On the other hand, he's enough of a tool that nothing he said would really surprise me.
Todem
Footballguy
Yep. I think the whole "Clutch" thing with this team and in partciular Lebron is getting way to much chatter. I mean it is the day after and all the media keeps doing is talking about Lebron and the Heat. It should be all about Dallas. The Heat were outplayed!!! They lost. They came up just short. They were not blown out of the arena, swept in 4 games etc etc. If they would have gotten blown out every game and swept then we have something to talk about. This was a great series between 2 great teams.
I really hope next season a lot of the attention dies down. But I doubt it.
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PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I'm trying as hard as I can to figure out what you are referencing, but I've got nothing.
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
How can you say that about poor Nick Anderson. I'm sure there was some meaningless previous series in his career in which he played well. You are talking about a very small sample size there
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wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Jay Cutler says Hi
biggamer3
Footballguy
This is my favorite Highlight of these finals.
Wade takes 5 steps and there is no travel call, but the best part is Breens "Wade wanted a foul there" He gets away with a travel and still complains!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe6_i19o0XA
Wade takes 5 steps and there is no travel call, but the best part is Breens "Wade wanted a foul there" He gets away with a travel and still complains!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe6_i19o0XA
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
He stole the ball from Jordan to put away the Bulls in the conference semis. Or Jordan choked depending on how you chose to look at things.How can you say that about poor Nick Anderson. I'm sure there was some meaningless previous series in his career in which he played well. You are talking about a very small sample size there
General Malaise
Footballguy
She's pretty gross. I was a little surprised that was his lady. She looked a lot like his 4th quarter efforts in the finals, ugly and flat.
culdeus
Footballguy
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
I think she locked him in pretty early on with a couple of kids. Smart.
culdeus
Footballguy
No, please keep piling on lebron. It is way more fun this way. Only less likable big name guy in the NBA is Kobe.
Saints-Man
Footballguy
I agree. While I am a Mavericks fan, the Heat have nothing of which to be ashamed. They were beat by a better team this year, but even getting to the NBA finals is an accomplishment. This is the same b.s. laid on the Mavericks in 2006. I didn't see any choking in the finals this year. It is somewhat rare when you do. The Mavericks just executed better down the stretch of games than the Heat did. The core of this Mavericks team has been together for at least two years(with the addition of Marion). Adding Chandler was a big plus for them since they have for several years lacked a quality center. It is certainly reasonable to expect that the Heat will be better next year.I understand that LJames is not a likeable player. But, to claim the Heat "choked" or that James "choked" just does not pass the eyeball test to me. I didn't see any player afraid of being there(with the possible exception of Maverick C Mahimi - he looked a little scared to me out there at times yesterday) and that is the essence of choking.
Saints-Man
Footballguy
LJames does need to grow up a bit. That thing with the coughing was so juvenile. And let us not forget Wade in all of this. He made that stupid quote about Dirk not being a leader after 2006. He certainly played well, but not well when it counted in game 6. It certainly can be said that he wasn't the leader the Heat needed in 2011. He didn't do much down the stretch to help his team win game 6 either.
Saints-Man
Footballguy
got_nugs
Footballguy
Did you get some good gear this morning?
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
LeBron let down the Heat on defense, too
The more you review Game 6, the clearer it gets: LeBron James was not good enough.
This was most obvious when the Heat had the ball late on Sunday and LeBron, with a few nice exceptions, turned into an overly cautious ball-handler at best and an inactive spectator at worst. Miami’s offense has been a work in progress all season, with fits and starts and bouts of the stars “taking turns.” But LeBron knows by now that he has to do more than stand in the corner when Dwyane Wade runs a pick-and-roll. He showed that late in Game 5, when he cut backdoor behind a Wade pick-and-roll, received a pass at top speed, rose for a layup and ran into Tyson Chandler body on a series-altering charge.
By the second half of Game 6, it was clear that James had lost something on offense. The Heat, however, are talented enough to overcome his tentative play. But more troublesome is this: The passivity, or borderline paralysis if you prefer, extended too often to the defensive end, where urgent effort on and off the ball is the baseline requirement for being on the court in an elimination game.
Two plays stood out to me in real time. They’re even more jarring upon second viewing, even as that second viewing makes clear they were not outliers, but rather part of a larger pattern of passive defense.
The first occurred with about 6:15 left in the third quarter. LeBron was guarding Jason Kidd, who was doing what he does now: standing at the top of the arc, acting as a safety net, while J.J. Barea and Dirk Nowitzki ran a pick-and-roll on the right side of the floor. LeBron parked himself at the left elbow and watched as the Heat snuffed out that pick-and-roll.
Barea swung the ball to Kidd. LeBron barely moved, even though the shot clock was in single digits. James took only a half-step toward Kidd, his feet barely crossing the top of the circle. Kidd had loads of space, and he went up for a three-pointer. LeBron responded with a close-out that would have been unworthy of his skills even on the second end of a back-to-back in March. He put both hands together but did not bring either of them above shoulder level. He did not leave his feet at all.
Then something weird happened: With the shot already in mid-flight, at the very top of its arc toward the rim, LeBron lunged an extra foot toward Kidd and extended his left hand toward the Dallas player’s head, as if face-guarding him. It looked like James was saving face, putting in a token effort. There is no point face-guarding a shooter when his shot is about to hit the rim.
There’s no sugarcoating this: These are terrible defensive plays that blur the line between passive and lazy, and they were indicative of James’ play on that end in the second half. Perhaps this is all evidence of simple fatigue–the accumulation of playing 45 minutes per game, chasing Jason Terry through screens, getting bumped along the way and trying to figure out the Mavs’ pick-and-roll defense. Focus on James, and you see a drifter, someone in that horrible in-between place where he slides off his man as if to help elsewhere but doesn’t actually help at all. He turned to watch, and he reached a few times, but he rarely helped as actively as he does when he is creating havoc everywhere.
Earlier in this series, I called James and Wade the best pair of “help the helper defenders” in the league, meaning they can crash down from the perimeter to help on pick-and-roll plays and still scoot back out to their man without yielding an open three-pointer. That player vanished in Game 6.
When Wade played off Shawn Marion to help elsewhere, James was often late rotating. He got there eventually to defend Marion. He ended up in the right place, but he started his work late, and it hurt the quality of Miami’s overall defense. He was a ghost on the defensive glass, content to sort of jog toward the dotted line, get himself in theoretical rebounding position and then watch his teammates do the work.
On a possession three minutes into the third quarter, James was one of four Heat players in the lane when Marion, the lone Mav there, grabbed a Nowitzki miss and scored on a putback. There was some bad luck here, as Wade, boxing out Marion, mistimed his jump, and the ball bounced to the precise spot where the Dallas forward could get it.
Still, you don’t help your team much by lingering at the edge of the paint, inactive and flat-footed. This happened repeatedly. A minute before that Marion second-chance basket, James stood watching at the dotted line as Chandler played volleyball at the rim. With 4:30 left in the third, James jogged aimlessly toward the basked as Nowitzki lofted a pull-up, never bothering to stop his momentum, plant himself or box anyone out; the rebound bounced over his head to Marion, again the only Maverick in the paint.
Maybe an active LeBron wouldn’t have gotten Miami any of these rebounds. Chandler would still have been too big for everyone in the Heat’s rotation, and the rebounds still would have bounced where they bounced. But you can’t change the outcome when you’re standing there. The moment demanded urgency, and LeBron responded with a defensive performance well below his standards.
The Heat can live, to a degree, with LeBron’s quaking a bit on offense. Even in those games, he still helps you by drawing attention and making smart passes. He looked uncomfortable with the ball again on Sunday, throwing hot-potato passes, appearing reluctant to even attack Barea on a mismatch and standing in the corner when the Heat called a set featuring Wade as the primary ball-handler. We’ve seen all this before, so it wasn’t a huge surprise.
And he still had his moments — a post-up of Marion, a few aggressive off-the-ball cuts against the zone, some nice drives on pick-and-roll plays late in the third quarter. He wasn’t at this best, but he still helped at times.
But on defense? He had to be better. There are a lot of reasons why Dallas won this series, and in a sport so complex, it might seem unfair to focus solely on the so-so play of one man. But that is the kind of scrutiny that comes with being the world’s best player in the team sport in which the best guy can have the largest impact.
LeBron fell short.
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/06/13/lebron-let-down-the-heat-on-defense-too/
The more you review Game 6, the clearer it gets: LeBron James was not good enough.
This was most obvious when the Heat had the ball late on Sunday and LeBron, with a few nice exceptions, turned into an overly cautious ball-handler at best and an inactive spectator at worst. Miami’s offense has been a work in progress all season, with fits and starts and bouts of the stars “taking turns.” But LeBron knows by now that he has to do more than stand in the corner when Dwyane Wade runs a pick-and-roll. He showed that late in Game 5, when he cut backdoor behind a Wade pick-and-roll, received a pass at top speed, rose for a layup and ran into Tyson Chandler body on a series-altering charge.
By the second half of Game 6, it was clear that James had lost something on offense. The Heat, however, are talented enough to overcome his tentative play. But more troublesome is this: The passivity, or borderline paralysis if you prefer, extended too often to the defensive end, where urgent effort on and off the ball is the baseline requirement for being on the court in an elimination game.
Two plays stood out to me in real time. They’re even more jarring upon second viewing, even as that second viewing makes clear they were not outliers, but rather part of a larger pattern of passive defense.
The first occurred with about 6:15 left in the third quarter. LeBron was guarding Jason Kidd, who was doing what he does now: standing at the top of the arc, acting as a safety net, while J.J. Barea and Dirk Nowitzki ran a pick-and-roll on the right side of the floor. LeBron parked himself at the left elbow and watched as the Heat snuffed out that pick-and-roll.
Barea swung the ball to Kidd. LeBron barely moved, even though the shot clock was in single digits. James took only a half-step toward Kidd, his feet barely crossing the top of the circle. Kidd had loads of space, and he went up for a three-pointer. LeBron responded with a close-out that would have been unworthy of his skills even on the second end of a back-to-back in March. He put both hands together but did not bring either of them above shoulder level. He did not leave his feet at all.
Then something weird happened: With the shot already in mid-flight, at the very top of its arc toward the rim, LeBron lunged an extra foot toward Kidd and extended his left hand toward the Dallas player’s head, as if face-guarding him. It looked like James was saving face, putting in a token effort. There is no point face-guarding a shooter when his shot is about to hit the rim.
There’s no sugarcoating this: These are terrible defensive plays that blur the line between passive and lazy, and they were indicative of James’ play on that end in the second half. Perhaps this is all evidence of simple fatigue–the accumulation of playing 45 minutes per game, chasing Jason Terry through screens, getting bumped along the way and trying to figure out the Mavs’ pick-and-roll defense. Focus on James, and you see a drifter, someone in that horrible in-between place where he slides off his man as if to help elsewhere but doesn’t actually help at all. He turned to watch, and he reached a few times, but he rarely helped as actively as he does when he is creating havoc everywhere.
Earlier in this series, I called James and Wade the best pair of “help the helper defenders” in the league, meaning they can crash down from the perimeter to help on pick-and-roll plays and still scoot back out to their man without yielding an open three-pointer. That player vanished in Game 6.
When Wade played off Shawn Marion to help elsewhere, James was often late rotating. He got there eventually to defend Marion. He ended up in the right place, but he started his work late, and it hurt the quality of Miami’s overall defense. He was a ghost on the defensive glass, content to sort of jog toward the dotted line, get himself in theoretical rebounding position and then watch his teammates do the work.
On a possession three minutes into the third quarter, James was one of four Heat players in the lane when Marion, the lone Mav there, grabbed a Nowitzki miss and scored on a putback. There was some bad luck here, as Wade, boxing out Marion, mistimed his jump, and the ball bounced to the precise spot where the Dallas forward could get it.
Still, you don’t help your team much by lingering at the edge of the paint, inactive and flat-footed. This happened repeatedly. A minute before that Marion second-chance basket, James stood watching at the dotted line as Chandler played volleyball at the rim. With 4:30 left in the third, James jogged aimlessly toward the basked as Nowitzki lofted a pull-up, never bothering to stop his momentum, plant himself or box anyone out; the rebound bounced over his head to Marion, again the only Maverick in the paint.
Maybe an active LeBron wouldn’t have gotten Miami any of these rebounds. Chandler would still have been too big for everyone in the Heat’s rotation, and the rebounds still would have bounced where they bounced. But you can’t change the outcome when you’re standing there. The moment demanded urgency, and LeBron responded with a defensive performance well below his standards.
The Heat can live, to a degree, with LeBron’s quaking a bit on offense. Even in those games, he still helps you by drawing attention and making smart passes. He looked uncomfortable with the ball again on Sunday, throwing hot-potato passes, appearing reluctant to even attack Barea on a mismatch and standing in the corner when the Heat called a set featuring Wade as the primary ball-handler. We’ve seen all this before, so it wasn’t a huge surprise.
And he still had his moments — a post-up of Marion, a few aggressive off-the-ball cuts against the zone, some nice drives on pick-and-roll plays late in the third quarter. He wasn’t at this best, but he still helped at times.
But on defense? He had to be better. There are a lot of reasons why Dallas won this series, and in a sport so complex, it might seem unfair to focus solely on the so-so play of one man. But that is the kind of scrutiny that comes with being the world’s best player in the team sport in which the best guy can have the largest impact.
LeBron fell short.
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/06/13/lebron-let-down-the-heat-on-defense-too/
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
LeBron played good defense against Rose though last week so I'm unsure if we are allowed to critize him. 
Is there some sort of statistical bias at play?
Is there some sort of statistical bias at play?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
BTW, has anyone pointed out what a toolbag David Stern is for failing to pronounce the Finals MVP's name correctly? Everyone knows that the "w" in Nowitzki is pronounced like it is a "v" except for apparently the commissioner of the league he has been playing in for years. 
mozzy84
Footballguy
Can a hockey guy that watched some basketball ask a question about traveling?So the guy takes one dribble while running, say left foot is just coming off the floor while ball hits said floor during that dribble. then the player can take two more huge steps after that? or is that supposed to be a travel?
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
So you got it bad for Lebrick James don't you?
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Instinctive
Footballguy
I love talking about how we just won it all - but we have ourselves set up pretty nicely for the next couple offseasons, depending on how the CBA works out.
Expiring now:
Tyson Chandler - $13 million
Caron Butler - $10.5 million
DeShawn Stevenson - $4.5 million
Greg Buckner - $1 million (btw, how the hell did he ever get above half of this in a salary?)
Expiring next year:
Jason Kidd - $8.5 million
Jason Terry - $11.5 million
It would be completely possible, from a salary standpoint, to get Paul and Howard here. That's abotu as much a homer view as one can possible have, but one or the other isn;t really thinking TOO big, is it? I think Kidd retires after his deal is done, or maybe he extends cheaper. Terry - I'm not sure, but he'll be 35 I think, so perhaps he would come back at a discount too.
Anyway, the big dreamer that I am thinks that Dwight Howard is within reach, and would make an amazing teammate to Dirk. Dallas is a hefty market too. That high post low post game would be insane.
Really just musings, but this will be an interesting offseason for us, at least in that we gotta see how much to give Chandler. And Haywood's got a hefty salary for 5 years, especially for a backup. Then again, a top 10 defensive center at your backup position is a luxury that it's nice to have.
Expiring now:
Tyson Chandler - $13 million
Caron Butler - $10.5 million
DeShawn Stevenson - $4.5 million
Greg Buckner - $1 million (btw, how the hell did he ever get above half of this in a salary?)
Expiring next year:
Jason Kidd - $8.5 million
Jason Terry - $11.5 million
It would be completely possible, from a salary standpoint, to get Paul and Howard here. That's abotu as much a homer view as one can possible have, but one or the other isn;t really thinking TOO big, is it? I think Kidd retires after his deal is done, or maybe he extends cheaper. Terry - I'm not sure, but he'll be 35 I think, so perhaps he would come back at a discount too.
Anyway, the big dreamer that I am thinks that Dwight Howard is within reach, and would make an amazing teammate to Dirk. Dallas is a hefty market too. That high post low post game would be insane.
Really just musings, but this will be an interesting offseason for us, at least in that we gotta see how much to give Chandler. And Haywood's got a hefty salary for 5 years, especially for a backup. Then again, a top 10 defensive center at your backup position is a luxury that it's nice to have.
Jules Winnfield
Footballguy
Two rules here:Stars of the NBA: No limit on how many steps. See Dwayne WadeRegular guys who aren't on ESPN: Two steps
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Dallas has nothing to offer either Orlando or NO.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
Could it simply be that Lebron ran out of gas? Looking at the big 3, as well as the other players through the playoffs:
LeBron: vs Philly: Amazing, vs Boston: Amazing (and clutch), vs Chicago: Amazing and the MVP of that series, vs the Mavs: DOA
Wade: Great vs philly, Good vs Boston, Bad/average vs chicago, and then up and down vs Dallas (mainly up, but some games he was fair)
Bosh: Solid all the way through, although down a bit some games at Boston.
The fact is lebron looked in the finals the way wade did vs chicago: Tired. Not excusing him, but it happens to the best of us. I am sure one of the things the heat will look to be better at in the coming years is minutes for their stars.
LeBron: vs Philly: Amazing, vs Boston: Amazing (and clutch), vs Chicago: Amazing and the MVP of that series, vs the Mavs: DOA
Wade: Great vs philly, Good vs Boston, Bad/average vs chicago, and then up and down vs Dallas (mainly up, but some games he was fair)
Bosh: Solid all the way through, although down a bit some games at Boston.
The fact is lebron looked in the finals the way wade did vs chicago: Tired. Not excusing him, but it happens to the best of us. I am sure one of the things the heat will look to be better at in the coming years is minutes for their stars.
Bogart
Footballguy
Nope, just living my horrible, pathetic poor life while King James gets to live the life he is living.
Instinctive
Footballguy
They are Free Agents next year...even if they get traded, they'll still be Free Agents. D12 (as of now) says he's going to hit FA, period.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
To clarify a bit further. I enjoy watching James play (when he's on his game). I don't hate the guy. He is the most freakishly talented and gifted basketball player I've seen since Shaq was in his prime. So my expectations are such that around this point in his career I expect James to dominate games he plays in to a similar (obviously one's a center, one's a wing) extent. That James somewhat does the opposite on many occasions is just baffling. As a basketball fan I sort of feel cheated that we don't get to see his best game consistently when it means the most. I really expected him to take a big step forward in the finals, instead it's another step back. And it's all in his head, that's the shame of it.
mozzy84
Footballguy
thanks, so that very first step coming off the floor should count as one then. I think you are right about the stars thing. I would rewind my dvr and try and figure out how many steps they are supposed to get and it looked like 3 all the time, the announcers would never say anything about it though....
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
They have $41M committed in 2012. If they don't pick up the options on Jones and Beaubois they'd get down to about $38M. Then they have to fill about 10 roster spots with minimum contracts so that brings them back up to about $45M. So in a perfect scenario, if they keep all the guys they currently have under contract and don't sign anyone this year to more than a one year deal and the salary cap stays where it is, they'd be able to spend about $13M on a FA. I doubt Howard and Paul would jump at $13M a year.
got_nugs
Footballguy
I thought he was talking about Cleveland fans?
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